Burned Alive During 18th Birthday

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oh, for fucks sake, no!

how can someone be that stupid?

i know they smeared shit all over his body and sprayed him with tanning oil while he was probably drunk dancing and thinking it would just be funny to do as he was told from the crowd(and that it probably would make him be more accepted by them).

but how fucking fucked up have you got to be to just think "i ma gonna set him on fire, it will be fun" and then watch him bvurn for almost aminuite without doing something?

i dont think the guy who got 3.5 years prison time will life 3.5 years at all...

LetalisK:
Because motivations matter.

To who? If I was set on fire, between the thoughts of 'why' and 'this REALLY hurts!' I wouldn't be thinking 'well they didn't intend to set me on fire, so I can't be that mad'

LetalisK:

Someone who purposely and maliciously runs someone down with their car is a greater threat to society than someone who was texting and driving.

Really, what evidence do you have to back this claim?

LetalisK:

Both are responsible for what they did, but in different ways and we acknowledge this.

Acknowledgement is one thing, differing punishments is another.

thaluikhain:

TheNaut131:

Dee Oh Double Gizzle:
As far as tha law goes, thatz fine.

If it was me dat da perved-out muthafucka set on fire, I'd make it mah goal up in thuglife ta make shizzle da thug was charged wit attempted murder. Shiiit, dis aint no joke. It only takes one mistake n' his ass could have took a dirt nap or been seriously damaged fo' life.

...alright, some I'm reading through this thread. You know, you got your typical "that is some fucked up shit", "he should be tortured for torturing someone", and the few people trying to play devil's advocate and act "rational." (I use that word very loosely.)

And then there's you.

Seriously, da fuq is this?

Yeah...you might want to look at that person's other posts. Or not, as the case may be.

His posts are doggone perfect. Don't you go dissin' the Dawg.

OT: I see lots of people arguing that he should get more than 3 years, but the point of prison here in the UK is not punishment but reformation. Or, at least, it's supposed to be - in actual fact we're not fully committed to it due to all the twats who think we should be "tough on crime", putting our system somewhere in the ineffective middle ground between deterrent and reform.

We need to be more like Denmark, IMO.

OhJohnNo:

OT: I see lots of people arguing that he should get more than 3 years, but the point of prison here in the UK is not punishment but reformation. Or, at least, it's supposed to be - in actual fact we're not fully committed to it due to all the twats who think we should be "tough on crime", putting our system somewhere in the ineffective middle ground between deterrent and reform.

If that's true, then all prison sentences should be for life. That's what parole hearings are for, to see if the person has been rehabilitated.

That way, when they're rehabilitated, they're released. If they're not rehabilitated, then they rot in a cell for the rest of their natural life- where they belong. Best of both worlds. Focus is on reform, and if they can't reform, they're kept out of society.

wulf3n:

LetalisK:
Because motivations matter.

To who? If I was set on fire, between the thoughts of 'why' and 'this REALLY hurts!' I wouldn't be thinking 'well they didn't intend to set me on fire, so I can't be that mad'

Pretty much every set of legal codes established by society ever, with minor exceptions within them[1]. Specifically, the judge, jury, prosecutor, and defense attorney. And if you want to get political about it, society in general as the aforementioned parties are essentially just instruments of the latter. The absolutist standard you're thinking of does exist in limited quantities within the legal system, but it's definitely the exception, not the rule.

Oh, and no one is expecting you to think anything other than "why", "this REALLY hurts" and possibly even "I'm going to kill this motherfucker SO HARD once I get to some water". No one would expect you to care about their motivations or any details that culminated into the act. You're personally involved. Which is why you're not allowed to carry out justice yourself.

Really, what evidence do you have to back this claim?

You want me to explain how someone who has shown themselves able and willing to kill another person is worse for society than someone who made a mistake? I suppose if someone were Jar Jar Binks and habitually made the mistake of killing people that would be an exception. What about the person that didn't make a mistake, their actions were reasonable and anyone would have done them, but someone still died because of those actions? What about self-defense? After all, someone died. Do we care about motivations and intent then?

Edit: Don't know why I said esoteric, that wasn't what I meant at all.

[1] Edit: Actually, let me qualify this with "Almost" since I'm not omniscient. Cavemen may have thought differently and there may have been religious groups who thought differently. But it is one of the foundational principles of criminal justice that has stood the test of time and its use through history will occur magnitudes more often than its absence.

For me the "prank gone wrong, he didnt mean it" argument holds no water. Setting someone on fire, whether you mean to kill them or not, is in no way a prank. But even if you believe it was a valid prank, what would have been the outcome of the prank gone right exactly?

Even if you accept that he didnt mean to kill him, he did, and while commiting a hate crime. What if i took an axe, picked someone i didnt like, waited for them and burried it in their back, subsiquently killing them? Ive murdered him right? What if i claim it was only a prank and i didn't mean to kill them? Would that in any way lessen what i had done?

Jordan Sheard took deliberate, senselessly violent actions that directly resulted in the death of another person and as far as I'm concerned, thats murder.

I see lots of people arguing that he should get more than 3 years, but the point of prison here in the UK is not punishment but reformation. Or, at least, it's supposed to be - in actual fact we're not fully committed to it due to all the twats who think we should be "tough on crime", putting our system somewhere in the ineffective middle ground between deterrent and reform.

We need to be more like Denmark, IMO.

Also I have to disagree, reform is important, but reform is achieved through social programmes and personal development schemes that are operated while people are in prison. Prison itself isn't there to reform people, the point of having a place where you send people like this is so that the public at large can be kept safe from these people.

TallanKhan:
For me the "prank gone wrong, he didnt mean it" argument holds no water. Setting someone on fire, whether you mean to kill them or not, is in no way a prank. But even if you believe it was a valid prank, what would have been the outcome of the prank gone right exactly?

Really? Again, not saying it couldn't have been an outright hate crime, but I think you're underestimating just what young testosterone-filled immature men(women too, actually) are capable of, particularly when drunk(or high), as I would assume they would be considering the availability of alcohol at this party. Maybe it's because I see stupid shit like this all the mother-loving time. Between friends. Ask me how I feel about humanity. Hell, I've seen people in positions of distinction with college educations do incredibly stupid shit like this because of alcohol. They were just lucky enough to not have it get this bad.

I guess what I'm saying is don't underestimate our stupidity.

LetalisK:
*sigh* I never said it should be excused.

Neither did I.

LetalisK:
The media being a sensationalist machine with the prime motivator of profit and this guy having done something horrible which should be punished accordingly are not mutually exclusive propositions.

I was meaning to convey that I did not understand why anyone would think that this was a prank.

LetalisK:
Try again.

I will not.

Edit: Also, please don't think I am trying to insult you here. I genuinely do not understand.

LetalisK:

TallanKhan:
For me the "prank gone wrong, he didnt mean it" argument holds no water. Setting someone on fire, whether you mean to kill them or not, is in no way a prank. But even if you believe it was a valid prank, what would have been the outcome of the prank gone right exactly?

Really? Again, not saying it couldn't have been an outright hate crime, but I think you're underestimating just what young testosterone-filled immature men(women too, actually) are capable of, particularly when drunk(or high), as I would assume they would be considering the availability of alcohol at this party. Maybe it's because I see stupid shit like this all the mother-loving time. Hell, I've seen people in positions of distinction with college educations do incredibly stupid shit like this because of alcohol. They were just lucky enough to not have it get this bad.

I guess what I'm saying is don't underestimate our stupidity.

I have to disagree, maybe it was stupid, maybe it was alcohol induced, but none of that excuses what he actually did. You could blame a combination of hormones, alcohol and stupidity for any number of shootings, stabbings, fights outside nightclubs that end with somones face being stamped on while they beg to be left alone, but they are all still vicious, violent crimes.

If the killer was drunk or high he was responsible for getting into that state. And also, so was everybody else there, so were tens of thousands of other people at parties accross the country, but Jordan Sheard is the only one who set someone on fire, and thats what makes him different, he took it too far. Theres a line where somethings stops being excusable due to intoxiations or mental deficiencies and becomes malicious. I believe he crossed that line.

You know I don't post very often on the forums for the very simple reason that I don't like paying attention to what society is doing because most of the time it hurts my brain to try to wrap my mind around the things they do, but sometimes a headline will catch my attention and I feel I need to make my opinion known on the subject.

I am quite honestly sick, disgusted and horrified by the state our society has degraded to when it come to crime and punishment. People are allowed to commit unspeakable crimes against others and literally get a slap on the wrist as the punishment for their actions. They learn that they CAN in fact kill others, ruin lives, cause pain and that its ok to do so. Not only that, but people who are not directly involved with them also see these results and are more likely to act on their violent impulses to resolve whatever issue they have. Take a guy to court over a bad deal? That's for sissies, just bludgeon him to death and the prison sentence is going to be shorter and cheaper. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with our society, we have grown to cling so strongly to upholding "humane" means of treating those who commit crimes when in a lot of cases the word human doesn't apply to them. You lose that definition when you act even lower than an animal, you do cruel things not out of necessity or self protection, but merely because you can or worse yet because it pleases you. The states are also so reluctant to adopt the death penalty and to use it appropriately. The legal system is garbage when it can't appoint appropriate punishment for the level of the crime.

When I see a crime like what these idiots committed I would take the one who initiated it and publicly feed him feet first into a wood chipper and feed whats left to his mates who thought it was a good idea to do this. When he set another innocent person on fire and watched them burn to death, this individual lost the right to be called human, he lost the right to be supported by the money of hard working people while he rots in a prison and what he is designated at the end of it all is biowaste that needs to be disposed of. I think society needs to be educated on the consequences of causing pain to others, they need to have a clear burning image in their mind that if I do stupid shit like that guy, this is what is going to happen to me. Considering as of now few people are aware of the punishment that awaits them if they do something horrible to another person so it makes it that much easier for them to take that extra step.

In closing, individuals who act human should be treated humanely, everything else is waste and should be disposed of as such.

TallanKhan:

I have to disagree, maybe it was stupid, maybe it was alcohol induced, but none of that excuses what he actually did.

Why do people keep thinking that I'm excusing what he did? I'm not. Saying a husband killed his wife because he found out she was cheating on him and not because he has fetish for corpses isn't excusing the husband. Hell, I think his sentence was too light. :/

but Jordan Sheard is the only one who set someone on fire

Possibly. I know you were being rhetorical, but I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it. And if we broaden it to "killed someone while intoxicated"...yeah. Again, not excusing. Just pointing out that shit like this is sadly more common than we think.

LetalisK:

TallanKhan:

I have to disagree, maybe it was stupid, maybe it was alcohol induced, but none of that excuses what he actually did.

Why do people keep thinking that I'm excusing what he did? I'm not. Saying a husband killed his wife because he found out she was cheating on him and not because he has fetish for corpses isn't excusing the husband. Hell, I think his sentence was too light. :/

And in the same way that, regardless of his stupidity or intoxication I view Jordan Sheard to be a murderer, I would view that husband to be a murderer and deserving of the same punishment regardless of which of those reasons was his motive for killing her.

TallanKhan:

LetalisK:

TallanKhan:

I have to disagree, maybe it was stupid, maybe it was alcohol induced, but none of that excuses what he actually did.

Why do people keep thinking that I'm excusing what he did? I'm not. Saying a husband killed his wife because he found out she was cheating on him and not because he has fetish for corpses isn't excusing the husband. Hell, I think his sentence was too light. :/

And in the same way that, regardless of his stupidity or intoxication I view Jordan Sheard to be a murderer, I would view that husband to be a murderer and deserving of the same punishment regardless of which of those reasons was his motive for killing her.

I would judge him more harshly if it was alcohol-related, personally(which is actually the opposite of how some legal systems do it). And more harshly than that if it was intentional. I would need more information for the husband one, though the difference would be much less than with this Jordan guy. Just my opinion.

the kid who did it will suffer for the rest of his life. thats One way to look at it.

VoidWanderer:
If this is a 'rarnk gone wrong' then Darwin strikes again.

If "Darwin had struck again" then the crazy fuck would be dead. Not the innocent autistic kid.

Seriously, this is fucking messed up.

SecretNegative:

krazykidd:

Yeah but , rehabilitation from what? It's a prank gone wrong . An accident if you will . You know teenagers , dumb as bricks . I blame Jackass . Anyways . I think this is fair . It was an accident , but the fact that he fled from the scene , instead of , you know , doing something is punishable by law ( as far as i know ) .

Also , while iv'e never been to prison , 3 years is a long time . People don't seem to realise that .

I think I misread it, or am just stupid. But was it him or someone else that wrote "Gay Boy" on the dead guys head? Because it kinda changes a few things.

But yeah, 3 years is a really damn long time

The basic course of events as far as we know is that these guys were attending the victim's 18th Birthday party, and were screwing with him. They doused him in tanning oil and wrote "gay boy" on his forehead with lipstick. He was lit on fire when they were holding a lighter to his testicles.

The low sentence here is because there was no intent to kill or even do serious harm, granted it WAS maybe a case of assault, and maybe a hate crime. But even allowing for that at the end of the day to convict these guys of anything serious they would have had to prove they knew the guy would go up like a torch, when at worst their intent, motivation aside, was just to beat on him. That kind of assault doesn't carry much of a sentence in general (whether anyone agrees to it or not) and it seems they went for what they could get the dude for and the most serious penelty allowed under the law.

Just explaining it, as I understand it.

I'll also say that this is horribly reported going by the links and such, and weighted towards drawing the reader in a paticular direction the writer intends, that is that it was a horrible hate crime and that this sentence is kind of a travesty. Of course there are a lot of questions here that aren't answered that spring to mind immediatly. For example if these guys allegedly were tormentors of the victim, why were they at his Birthday party, if one was to assume they barged in, one has to ask where the other guests, friends, family, the victim's gay lover (since I'm guessing he was a practicing homosexual), etc... all were. Obviously the guy had enough friends/family for there to be a party by the article, so really... one has to really wonder about this. If someone walked into your house during your Birthday do you think they would write crap on your forhead, douse you in tanning lotion, and hold an open flame to your nuts when you were presumably unwilling, and nobody would say or do anything? If these guys were hated and barged in, nobody would have say oh... called the police.

To me it seems like a bit of horseplay gone wrong, with the media trying to twist it into a hate crime to get attention. Horseplay is mentioned as a defense in the article, but then kind of dismissed by it's author, yet it's apparent those doing the investigation didn't think it was something quite as outrageous as the author did, and
neither did the judge. When your dealing with young 20-something kids, they frankly tend to be morons, and a lot of people get hazed during their birthdays or whatever, if I'd have to guess these guys weren't quite the enemies the article makes them out to be, everyone was screwing around, including the "victim" who was probably laughing his ass off due to the apparent lack of a struggle in a party full of people (as opposed to the hazing of an unwilling victim), and the whole "human torch" thing was unexpected, after all it happened with tanning oil, as opposed to what you'd expect from an attempt to light someone up, where the assailant would just flat out use lighter fluid.

At any rate there are enough questions here where yeah, 3.5 years, which will probably turn into a lot less, probably isn't unreasonable. I wouldn't even be surprised if it gets overturned during some kind of appeal (I have no idea how accurate the article is on the sentencing to be honest, since it seems to gloss over a lot of details). As a "hate crime" I'm just not buying it because of where it went down.

hazabaza1:

VoidWanderer:
If this is a 'rarnk gone wrong' then Darwin strikes again.

If "Darwin had struck again" then the crazy fuck would be dead. Not the innocent autistic kid.

Seriously, this is fucking messed up.

I wrote more about it in my previous post (which I imagine people will argue with on it's own) but to be honest when your dealing with the 18-20 crowd that think they are indestructable, this is pretty much par for the course. Too many accidents and complaints are why there have been increasing laws about "hazing" on campuses and such, but it still goes on, especially when your dealing with "victims" who are more or less willing and being messed with by people they know and are at least comfortable with.

For some of the more outlandish things out there, we have things like "ballooning" where someone's scrotum is inflated using saline solution (I think, I've never looked into it too heavily since I think it's too messed up), the roasting of the nutsack (to an extent) is old, as is of course people doing things like lighting their own farts and/or trying to "breathe fire".

As I said in my previous post this seems like it probably was horseplay gone wrong, because if I read that correctly this happened at the victim's birthday party. The substance that went up was tanning oil, not say lighter fluid which is what someone would use in an intentional assault, and it's not like there was apparently a struggle as they wrote on his forehead. After all if these guys whom he "hated" decided to crash this guy's party, and then stared beating on him, doncha think someone would have objected? OR the guy would have called the cops, or whatever the hell else.

The way it sounds to me is that the guy was flamboyantly gay, and being autistic, not all that well together in the head. He wound up getting killed screwing around. It happens. If some dude winds up dying during a frat party, dressed in lingerie, covered in whip cream, and the unfortunate victim of say having inhaled wrong while trying to do a fire breathing trick (or lighting their colon on fire trying to shoot fire from their butt), that's an unfortunate example of youthful stupidity, not murder, or a hate crime.

This guy's 20... If he doesn't know that holding an open flame next to oil is a bad idea then we better make damned sure this dipshit isn't breeding. Since most places don't accept the death penalty like I do, I'd say prison is a good half-way point, but 3 and a half years is way too little time.

I don't know what makes me more sad - the story itself or some of the responses to it.

This was one of the first things I came across after finally sitting down... I think that's already enough internet for tonight.

3 and a half years is not enough for, in a way, deliberately burning someone to death. If that was coupled with life in the padded room and a straitjacket in the mental hospital, it'd be a diffirent story.

Seriously.

I was shocked that a murder charge wouldn't stick, torturing somebody before setting them on fire? Its hard to imagine how anyone could have thought that setting him on fire would turn out any other way than the way it did, 20-30% burns can usually be enough to be fatal. Beating him up and he died? You might believe that they never intended to kill him under those circumstances but not smearing him in accelerant and setting it alight.

Even with a manslaughter charge the fact they taunted him, beat him and wrote homophobic rants all over his body essentially equates to torture. They deserve 10-15 years minimum for what they did.

.. I'm really sad, horribly sad to hear about this..

First, we get 2 football players raping a girl all night and they not only get a 1-2 year sentence.. but people feel sorry for them.

Then recently, 2 guys tried mugging a mother only to shoot her baby in the face (thus may only get a few years in prison, nothing over).

Now I hear about someone being bullied on their 18th birthday, had their body written with offensive insults, and then sprayed with oil only to be burned alive. Now the culprit is only getting 3 years of prison.

..... ... God dang it.

I don't wish for an execution or anything of unfair punishment, but honestly all these guys have been getting very light punishments. Not to mention all the culprits were teenagers from 14-20 years old. It's like a pattern, most of this unjustified crimes were done by young people. We really need to have the parents or society educate people more or do something- it's so sickening and I teared for the poor soul who lost his life over a 'prank'... to me, that was beyond what a prank should be it's disgusting.

Caramel Frappe:
I don't wish for an execution or anything of unfair punishment, but honestly all these guys have been getting very light punishments. Not to mention all the culprits were teenagers from 14-20 years old. It's like a pattern, most of this unjustified crimes were done by young people. We really need to have the parents or society educate people more or do something- it's so sickening and I teared for the poor soul who lost his life over a 'prank'... to me, that was beyond what a prank should be it's disgusting.

Yeah, second that. People talk about harsher punishments, but IMHO, getting people (especially in their age group) to accept what they did was very wrong and that they need to be punished at all is a better idea.

thaluikhain:

Caramel Frappe:
I don't wish for an execution or anything of unfair punishment, but honestly all these guys have been getting very light punishments. Not to mention all the culprits were teenagers from 14-20 years old. It's like a pattern, most of this unjustified crimes were done by young people. We really need to have the parents or society educate people more or do something- it's so sickening and I teared for the poor soul who lost his life over a 'prank'... to me, that was beyond what a prank should be it's disgusting.

Yeah, second that. People talk about harsher punishments, but IMHO, getting people (especially in their age group) to accept what they did was very wrong and that they need to be punished at all is a better idea.

Glad to hear man- because really are we any better for executing or better yet, torturing people? Two wrongs don't make a right and that goes a long way. Let's say I got a hold of this guy and he was strapped to my chair. If I were to throw oil over his body, light him on fire thus results to him dying.. am I really going to feel better about myself and the fact justice was served?

For me, i'd feel like a monster. No one deserves to go through that and though sadly, a guy died on his 18th birthday and was killed brutally... the culprit deserves to be punished in a civil way. Again, 3.5 years is way to light of a sentence but in truth his life is ruined ether way. People will have records as to what he did and you'd expect anyone to hire someone that bullied, tortured, and killed someone by setting them on fire? Highly doubt it thus makes a point that the courts know this. Yet, I still feel they need a longer sentence including those other crimes I mentioned. Seriously why are all these young people doing the worst of things? Some of these stories are the worst I heard happen in a long time it baffles me.

Caramel Frappe:
Glad to hear man- because really are we any better for executing or better yet, torturing people? Two wrongs don't make a right and that goes a long way. Let's say I got a hold of this guy and he was strapped to my chair. If I were to throw oil over his body, light him on fire thus results to him dying.. am I really going to feel better about myself and the fact justice was served?

Also, if you do that, he becomes the victim. The guy killed on his birthday becomes almost irrelevant, it'd be about how terrible revenge is, not how terrible the original death was.

Caramel Frappe:
Seriously why are all these young people doing the worst of things? Some of these stories are the worst I heard happen in a long time it baffles me.

The guy being burned alive, yeah, but the gang-rapes, TBH, not at all. That happens all the time, for some reason people cared about this one.

A week or two ago, there was an almost identical incident making the headlines, with a school or community representative basically saying "we're not bad, this stuff happens all the time". Not to mention the 11 year old Texas girl before that, or the cheerleader who got in trouble for not cheering for her rapist. And those are just high profile cases I can remember of the top of my head.

SlaveNumber23:

krazykidd:
It's a prank gone wrong . An accident if you will .

Come on, according to the news story the guy and his buddies crashed this poor autistic kid's 18th birthday, made him strip naked, wrote all kinds of homophobic crap all over his body and then held a lighter to his groin, not to mention the piece of shit fled like a coward instead of trying to help when he realized what he'd done.

Sure they might have never intended to kill or harm him but in my eyes that is WAY too far for a prank and this piece of shit deserves to burn in hell, or at least be imprisoned for significantly longer than 3.5 years.

^THIS

It isn't as much "prank gone wrong", as "torture gone wrong"
I say at least 5y
3.5y was too little for such cruel behavior

krazykidd:

SecretNegative:
If he set another guy on fire adn got 3,5 years and the minimum for manslaughter is five years...what?

I really can't tell if 3.5 years is long enough, since I've never been to a prison in my whole life, or even met a criminal (or atleast, someone who said they were a criminal).

Prison is about rehabilitation, and if he can rehabilitate in 3.5 years, then it's long enough.

Yeah but , rehabilitation from what? It's a prank gone wrong . An accident if you will . You know teenagers , dumb as bricks . I blame Jackass . Anyways . I think this is fair . It was an accident , but the fact that he fled from the scene , instead of , you know , doing something is punishable by law ( as far as i know ) .

Also , while iv'e never been to prison , 3 years is a long time . People don't seem to realise that .

Yes, because we don't want the poor guy to go to prison for a whole 3 years for BURNING A PERSON TO DEATH.

I refuse to believe that ANYONE can be stupid enough to not realize that setting a person on fire is A) In NO situation an acceptable prank, or B) can lead to serious physical harm, because you just SET A PERSON ON FUCKING FIRE.

It does sound like a prank gone wrong, but what's the prank? Write homophobic sayings on this kid's body and light his groin on fire? HOW IS THAT FUNNY??? That's not a prank, that's mutilation. I think he should get more. I'll give the lad some credit though, he did plea guilty, but I think he should have gotten more from that.

What about the other people who egged him on?? They should get something too.

3.5 years (of which he'll serve maybe 21 months) is beyond idiotic. He's not a minor, and even if he were, these sorts of stories need to have "went to prison for 10 years" endings in order to protect potential victims moving forward. That's the true tragedy here; we can't unkill this kid, but how many future hateful acts of violence are not being prevented when the penalty amounts to a slap on the wrist?

Just to clarify, the U.S. prison system's primary goal is not rehabilitation, it's primary goal is to keep people incarcerated and out of the public. It should be rehabilitation but it's not, because, 3.5 years is just enough time for the kid to ruin his life and fall into the crimonogenic effect, where the odds are that he will be back to prison will be high enough.

Actually, I believe the purpose of the U.S. prison system is retribution, which serves a very important function in the mental well-being of a society. People need to believe, in their heart of hearts, that doing wrong generates powerful negative consequences. Yes, it's vengeful and nasty and arguably evil, but that's the way human beings work. If you let folks off the hook because "two wrongs don't make a right", you end up with chaos - because there will ALWAYS be assholes who take advantage.

The "punishment fetishist" argument is a particularly frustrating one for me. We jail and ruin loads of people on shaky ground, but the horrendous and unnecessary suffering of an innocent victim generally doesn't qualify. Also, the term "accident" tends to fly out the window when it occurs within the context of abject cruelty and harassment. We've seen plenty of "accidents" surrounding race, creed, gender, and sexual orientation. I guess I'm of the mind that, if we're going to err on one side or the other, we should probably favor the person who isn't here to fucking defend himself anymore. After all, this isn't a "guilty until proven innocent" situation. We know what happened and who did it. They should have let the book hit him right between the eyes.

Dear God... thats just spine chilling. A hate crime has never sounded more disgusting, and might I add
WHY ARE WE ACTING MORE AND MORE LIKE CAVEMEN as the years of manslaughter go on? Just... ew.

OT: I bet FOX news will have a stiffy when they air this story. If they have the dignity to air something this disturbing... oh wait, FOX...

wulf3n:

Acknowledgement is one thing, differing punishments is another.

Two scenarios:

A man comes home early to find another man in bed with his wife. White hot fury grips him and he throws one punch hand right into the centre of his face. The cheater drops, hits his head and dies instantly. The perp immediately regrets his decision and is sickened. He immediately calls the police and attempts to give medical assistance to the victim.

A man stalks another man to his house before spinning him around and launching a vicious punch right to his face, killing him immediately. Hes pretty happy it took less effort than he expected and skips away merrily after dragging the body into a bush.

Honestly tell me these two deserve the same punishment. Its total insanity to say they do. One is obviously not a danger to society at large and one is. Despite the outcome of their crime being the same the motivation and reaction tell us a lot about if the person is safe and able to reintegrate into society properly and provide society with the service of his work and taxes. It would just hurt us to remove a helpful moral person from society for vengeance when the chances of a purposeful re offence is as likely as yours. The former scenario probably needs some therapy to deal with the guilt. The latter probably needs some iron bars for the rest of his days just to keep us safe.

Even if the point of the justice system is NOT rehabilitation the next best definition is to protect us from dangerous individuals. If an individual is never going to be more dangerous than you or i theres no good justification to lock them away.

In this case i think a slightly more harsh punishment was needed but i dont know enough about the situation. We have one of two extremes to be honest and both change in my mind what is and isnt appropriate:

1. Boys gate crash a hated minorities party and brutally cover him in slurs before setting him alight as a torture totally against his will. They then flee in cowardice aware the boy will certainly die.

2. A friend invited to the party writes slurs on his friend in a joking birthday haze (my LGBT friends called me a "breeder" as a joke on a special occasion and i returned the favor, it can totally exist in good humor) before also jokingly holding a lighter to him, too drunk or high on adrenaline to realise the consequences. At all times the victim consents. Terrified in watching his friend burn he flees in blind panic as most young people do when faced with sudden horrific images right in their face. The idea that their friend will die as a result doesnt occur.

Personally i think what happened was closer to 1 than 2 but i cant honestly say which one it was without more unbias information. If the jury found 2 was the exact scenario i think the punishment is fair. The closer to 1 it was the closer it needs to be to something like 20 years.

Zachary Amaranth:

Desert Punk:

Nah because a few years in prison is totally cool for a hate crime and killing.

Depends on what your end goal is.

There's no evidence that long sentences actually serve as deterrent, nor that they provide any greater form of change on the part of the person involved.

So...What is your desired end goal here? What do you hope to accomplish with a longer sentence here?

If I had to make a guess, i'd say the desired end goal is vindication: to make the boy suffer for what he did. It's a weird idea isn't it? Vindication is intensely gratifying for most even though it serves no practical purpose (in the modern world anyway.)

BiscuitTrouser:

Honestly tell me these two deserve the same punishment.

The way I see it the action is what they're being punished for, not intent. Whether you were just stupid, had a momentary lack of control or actively sought to kill someone, you still killed someone.

wulf3n:

BiscuitTrouser:

Honestly tell me these two deserve the same punishment.

The way I see it the action is what they're being punished for, not intent. Whether you were just stupid, had a momentary lack of control or actively sought to kill someone, you still killed someone.

No matter how you spin it punishing the former is taking a working,tax paying, morally good person out of society because you want to punish him the same for no reason. If you can justify hurting society like that for zero benefit im all ears. However it does no good and only harm to remove that person from society. Its not entirely about intent. Its about if removing that person from society will harm it or help it. If someone is dangerous it helps society. If someone is totally not dangerous and will never be dangerous again theres no good reason to remove them. All it will do is remove a good person from the outside who provides both a service and funding for societies needs.

BiscuitTrouser:

If you can justify hurting society like that for zero benefit im all ears.

I'm sure society will be fine.

BiscuitTrouser:

If someone is totally not dangerous and will never be dangerous again theres no good reason to remove them.

By that logic, there's no point punishing them at all it will only "harm" society.

Besides, prove that someone is "not dangerous and will never be dangerous again"

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