Incest

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Well, you know what they say, if you can't keep it in your pants, keep it in the family![1]

Personally, incest weird me out, the thoughts of it are just...awkward to me, but it is not my call on what people do. I know incest was actually a common thing among royalty and other such issues, but today, there is a heavy social stigma surrounding incest.

[1] It was a joke, don't hurt me.

I don't think incest is morally wrong, nor do I think it should be outlawed. People should be about to love, have sex with and marry whoever they please.

I do however believe incestuous relationships should not result in offspring, due to the horrific defects that generally result from inbreeding.

Source: I used to sleep with my cousin on a regular basis.

seydaman:
For a starting definition so there's no confusion

Definition of incest
noun
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
Origin:
Middle English: from Latin incestus, incestum 'unchastity, incest', from in- 'not' + castus 'chaste'

It's from the Oxford Dictionary.

For discussion:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

- Morally wrong? Yes.
- In the case of no possible offspring? Still wrong, yes.
- With offspring? A new level of wrong.

- Should incest be legally banned? Yes.
- Does the act of incest disgust you? Yes.

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us. Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

I mean, I can partially understand it. The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends. Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive. Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That is your life, their life and every member of your families life.

This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.

TLDR;

Incest is wrong, you should never fuck your family members. Never.

seydaman:

For discussion:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Morality is subjective. So ill give my own morality, which may or may not represent that of others.
No offspiring - ok
Offspring - no. there is no need to make offsprings with high probability of genetic mutation.

Legally banned? no. sadly it is.
It does not disgust me, however i have never experienced it, therefore my feelings are only what i think about others doing it.

Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Based on my morals incest is not wrong. On other people's it is.
Perfectly fine.
If it is first or second generation then perfectly fine. But if its been a couple generations of inbreeding than that is not okay because thats when the "flipper babies" start appearing.
Not at all. I'm against people trying to regulate the sex lives of others beyond cases of rape or child rape.
It does not disgust me anymore than any other kind of sex. I personally wouldn't do it (might be cuz my family is butt ugly) but if I hear other people admit to it (has happened before) my emotional and verbal response is "Oh, cool story bro".

I'm fairly open minded.

seydaman:

-Is incest morally wrong?

Don't see why it would be.

-In the case of no possible offspring?

Then there is no risk whatsoever.

-With offspring?

Biologically speaking, any negative traits in the family gene pool wouldn't be unusually likely to appear until after several generations of inbreeding. So, at first, I don't see a problem with it. However, controversy starts after the child would have an unusually high chance of inheriting a highly negative trait.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Hell no!

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Actually, no. I mean, I'm not attracted to any of my family members but I'm not disgusted by the act of incest. In fact, I find incest rather fascinating. There was once an entire town of people who's skin developed a blue tint due to a mutation in the hemoglobin in their blood. (The mutation appeared due to inbreeding) Said mutation didn't even seem to cause any serious negative health effects either.
Also, the taboo nature of it makes even more enthralling.

seydaman:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?
-With offspring?

I think you hit the nail on the head here with the offspring question. The key determinant for morality is whether there is unwanted harm to another party, or as Wendell so famously put it, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.". I'm of the opinion that people can do pretty much as they like provided that they don't harm others.

Harm can come in many forms, for example the family members of those who commit suicide are harmed by the trauma of the event. In the case of incest there is a higher than normal chance of birth defects in many cases, and as such the offspring will be harmed. Furthermore society as a whole will have to bear the cost of subsidising the child's medical expenses in many countries, and so it is not a private matter, but a situation where the incestous couple knowingly engage in behaviour to the detriment of society as a whole. Under those conditions I would say that it is immoral.

Where there are no offspring, or where genetic screening is done and there is no heightened risk of birth defects, and where both paties fully consent, I have no problem with incest.

seydaman:

-Should incest be legally banned?
-Does the act of incest disgust you?

What right should the state have to interfere in people's sex lives if there is no societal burden? In my opinion the state (i.e. laws) are only relevant when serving the greater societal good. Thus if there are no offspring or no heightened risk of birth defects, then there is no reason for banning incest.

Does it disgust me? Its not my cup of tea, but neither are any number of sex acts that other people regularly engage in. However, provided no-one is requiring me to engage in them, and provided that sex is kept in private as it should be, then I have no issue with what anyone else gets up to in their bedroom.

Filiecs:
There was once an entire town of people who's skin developed a blue tint due to a mutation in the hemoglobin in their blood. (The mutation appeared due to inbreeding) Said mutation didn't even seem to cause any serious negative health effects either.
Also, the taboo nature of it makes even more enthralling.

Wow, really? Thats pretty cool
Incest or no isn't genetics just amazing?

Darken12:

Milk:
This thread is going to end well.

seydaman:
-Is incest morally wrong?

Nope.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Nope.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Yeah but provided no one is getting hurt it is none of my business.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this sort of stuff.

This is my view as well. Though from a medical standpoint, I would recommend genetic counselling for heterosexual couples who might run the risk of being pregnant, just as it is recommended for couples who have a risk of passing on genetic conditions on their offspring.

I'm on this boat in theory; though I have Brocon sisters and not all of their dogs bark if you know what I mean.

I'm not going to say that all incestuous relationships between brothers and sisters are messed up, just if I ever said yes I'd probably have a Yandere harem on my hands

image

I think it must be something to do with being related to perfection yet society telling you your uncontrollable love is wrong.

Milk:
This thread is going to end well.

seydaman:
-Is incest morally wrong?

Nope.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Nope.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Yeah but provided no one is getting hurt it is none of my business.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this sort of stuff.

Pretty much this.

Also, don't force your mutant offspring onto others. Nobody likes taking care of someone else's screaming abominations.

The Ubermensch:
'm on this boat in theory; though I have Brocon sisters and not all of their dogs bark if you know what I mean.

I'm not going to say that all incestuous relationships between brothers and sisters are messed up, just if I ever said yes I'd probably have a Yandere harem on my hands

[pic]

I think it must be something to do with being related to perfection yet society telling you your uncontrollable love is wrong.

Are they at least hot? [creepy grin]

We need to know this. For science purposes. Yes.

Aris Khandr:
Just about everyone likes the idea of a threeway with twins. ;)

Not me, honestly I prefer one on one ... what am I talking about!?
But yeah, I wouldn't like that situation, they would fight over you. :/

OT:

seydaman:

-Is incest morally wrong?

In all honesty, I am Christian but I view everything with my own sense of morals.
Is it wrong, nope ... love is a crazy, wacky thing which we can't control most of the time.

And also I can't do anything if it happens. I don't have the rite to disturb that.
I'll let you humans do what you want ... unless it's opening a door to Hell or Heaven and then we have a problem. (Get back on topic Shaun!)

-In the case of no possible offspring?

As I said before ... nope.

-With offspring?

As other people said, as long as they make sure there is nothing going to be wrong with said child.
And adoption could stop anything bad.

-Should incest be legally banned?

That would be pretty unfair I guess.
Though I can't say.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

For me ... nope.
Though when I think about me being in a relationship with that ... like most people.
Creepy.

Though I can't stop myself if something like that happened.

tldr:

I have no problem with incest with neither children or not. (Only if they make sure it will be medically fine)
I shouldn't be banned.
It doesn't disgust me and it slightly creeps me out. Though if I can't say crap. :P
Love is a thing we cannot control.

On another note I must say ... I liked the title name.
It just puts the topic out there and leaves many questions.
*claps*

seydaman:

-Is incest morally wrong?

No such thing as morally wrong. No universal moral code, nothing can be universally wrong. By my own personal code its not wrong so long as it isn't being abused and both parties fairly consent.

-In the case of no possible offspring?

See above.

-With offspring?

Depends on how close family it is. Brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son - probably shouldn't have children. High chance of birth defects. Close aunts/uncles and cousins I also feel that same way about. Things like your mother's mother's sister's grandaughter or W/E I don't see as much of a problem with, though its still better to be cautious.
More to the point I'm not against the idea of them having children, just that they have to take full responsibility for the fact that their kid will have deformities, and do everything in their power to make sure that this fact doesn't impair them, or does to as little extent as possible. This means no expensive cars or W/E, that money goes into any medical surgery or W/E that could benefit your kid. Anything less is not enough IMO.

-Should incest be legally banned?

Nope. Really I don't think many things that aren't encompassed by "Don't be a dick" should be illegal, but W/E.

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Not really. An exploitative incest where its non-voluntary or heavily coerced for one party, making it rape really, disgusts me, but two people that love each other I have no problems with getting together, no matter what their relation to each other is.

Blargh McBlargh:

The Ubermensch:
'm on this boat in theory; though I have Brocon sisters and not all of their dogs bark if you know what I mean.

I'm not going to say that all incestuous relationships between brothers and sisters are messed up, just if I ever said yes I'd probably have a Yandere harem on my hands

[pic]

I think it must be something to do with being related to perfection yet society telling you your uncontrollable love is wrong.

Are they at least hot? [creepy grin]

We need to know this. For science purposes. Yes.

Kinda... I mean they are my sisters. They might not think of me in that way but I think of them that way.

Mr F.:

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us. Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

Well, that *is* pretty arguable.

Evolutionary psychology is quite a faulty source for morality. Your brain might be hardwired to find incest disturbing, but it's also hardwired to find people who are visibly different from your own monkey tribe revolting. Hence, racism. Also, to find sex between different monkey tribes revolting. Hence, interracial sex taboos. You are hardwired to always agree with the alpha male, to ensure the survival of your tribe.
Also, you are hardwired to find the most fertile, youngest post-pubescent teenage girls the most attractive. Hence, ephebophilia.

We are living in a civilization now, we ought to think past these stupid remnants that don't necessarily make sense any more, not encourage them.

Mr F.:

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends. Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive. Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That's not a biological problem, but a social one. The idea that a relationship where you are bumping uglies is somehow more likely to "get fucked up" than one where you don't, is entirely caused by sex taboos.

It's a bit like saying that we shouldn't allow gays to adopt children, because they would be bullied in school for it.

Which is technicaly true, but there is no fundamental reason for it to be that way to begin with, so it's a problem to be solved, not a barrier. Rather than limiting ourselves, it's more moral to create a world where gay parents' children don't get bullied, even if it's harder.

Milk:

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

Yeah but provided no one is getting hurt it is none of my business.

I'm pretty liberal when it comes to this sort of stuff.

If someone would say "I find homosexuality disgusting but it's none of my business", "liberal" wouldn't be my firrst word of choice to describe that.

Or can we think of any reason why incest should be more OK to be shunned even while tolerated? (not trying to be confrontational here).

Moral?
I don't know, I don't really think of it as a moral issue, it doesn't affect anyone but the people choosing to do it so there doesn't seem to be much room for morality.

With/without offspring?

Well you'd be better off adopting if you ask me, if you have a kid there's an increased chance of them having problems.

I'll admit, a part of me has always had a weird sort of fascination with incest. By that I mean the concept of it, it's not like I'm actually attracted to my own family members or anything like that. But I guess there's something about how unspeakably taboo it is that makes it seem kinda kinky. It's like the forbidden fruit so to speak. Of course in reality it's still pretty wrong and sick, and there's the problems that arise from it genetically.

In a way though everybody on earth is related fairly closely when you come right down to it. Most of the people you know are probably your 13th cousin or closer.

Mr F.:

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason.

But is such disgust universal? If it was universal, then why does incest exist? Also, why are there people who are NOT disgusted by it?

Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us.

First of all, I assume you mean detrimental in the long run of the human species in an environment of natural selection.
If you are talking about things detrimental to the human species then that would put a lot of fetish's and philias on that list like masochism or electrocution. Also, that argument could potentially be used against homosexuality or asexuality. However it can also be argued that not reproducing is beneficial to society at the moment.

Also, the brain is varying levels of plastic. Wires move and change every day. Even if such a reaction was "hard-wired" at some point in time, the lack of natural selection in our society has inevitably led to a large variety in the gene pool. There are undoubtedly at least thousands of people who wouldn't have that "hard wire" you're talking about.

Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting.

Opinion

Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else.

That power balance does not need to affect anything. You're just making an assumption that such distances in power (even if there WAS one in said family) would cause trouble in the first place.

Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

Opinion

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting.

You still have yet to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

Evidence that your claim is highly influenced by your opinion.

I mean, I can partially understand it.

Good, a concession.

The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

You are making a sweeping generalization based on personal experience. What evidence do you have that says that the two types of love MUST be exclusive?

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends.

Not everyone believes that is a good reason.

Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive.

Frankly, a fucked up relationship is almost always the result of immaturity on one or both sides and the lack of being willing to work things through. Also, there are MANY people who marry their best friends and have been perfectly happy. There are also examples of incestual relationships actually turning out fine.

Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That is your life, their life and every member of your families life.

You have yet to prove that there would be any conflict in the first place. You haven't even proven that said conflict would MOST LIKELY happen.

This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.

I would like to see you go into detail on this.

If it's with a cousin then I suppose it's okay but with a sibling? Or a parent? Or an uncle? It's....kinda messed up to me.
Do I think it should be illegal? I just don't know. It seems wrong to me but I am open minded if anyone here can help put it into a context that makes it seem "not sickening". I did grow up in a religious household so maybe that's it. I just see it as really, really weird and can't imagine it happening. I've never met an incest couple before though so I have no image in my head of this "looking normal".

Edit: Hmmmm, I guess it shouldn't be banned...but highly discouraged.

Incest between a parent/uncle/aunt and a child/offspring should be illegal though, that is not natural no matter how you look at it. No parent should want to stick their child back into the bits it came out of, that's sick and I really think there are some psychological issues there.

Between cousins and siblings though....I'd say it should just be highly discouraged and seen as dangerous. Aaaaaand the partners involved should first seek counselling, if some psychological cause can be found that can be cured then the relationship must end.

Evil Smurf:
1. Have I noticed I have an attractive cousin? Yes.
2. Do I want to bone her? Society would shun me forever, not worth it.

i got 4 attractive cousins... <_< one of them is a model, 2 other is sports athlete's... but yeah.. same boat as you mate. you would be forever shunned and probably be hated by the rest of your family.. so oh well :)

Mr F.:

- Morally wrong? Yes.
- In the case of no possible offspring? Still wrong, yes.
- With offspring? A new level of wrong.

- Should incest be legally banned? Yes.
- Does the act of incest disgust you? Yes.

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us.

image

I'm pretty sure our brains are hardwired to make decisions. I'm not an animal, acting on instinct, are you? Admit that you've made a judgement, be it a personal one or one that you've been taught to make.

Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

Psychologically I'll agree, but you can't just blanket the entire human race with having one rationale

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

>Makes me slightly ill
>me

The thought of gay sex makes a lot of people feel ill; these people generally have repressed homosexual feelings

I mean, I can partially understand it. The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

Woah...

Diggy Shiggy

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends. Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive. Finally there is the societal level to look at. Yes, technically, we should all pursue our happiness without giving a flying fuck about what society thinks. Some people frown on homosexuality, I do not think that gay couples should not exist though (That would somewhat shoot me in the foot.). However, if it ever got out that you were fucking a family member, that is not your life that has been destroyed.

That is your life, their life and every member of your families life.

This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.

image

That was the most beautiful denying of ones own feelings I have ever seen.

I think you need to have a talk with your sisters and tell them about your feelings

Going to add yet another "fine by me" to the pile, wouldn't do it personally but it's none of my business what people want to get up to behind the privacy of their own doors (providing all the people involved consent). The risk of genetic anomalies isn't raised a huge deal and we still let women 40+ and carriers of genetic diseases reproduce so we can't exactly ban it on that alone.

Apparently most of the US thinks its morally wrong. Law-wise that is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a punishable offense (in my state its a Life sentence).
So... Take that how you will folks.

amaranth_dru:
Apparently most of the US thinks its morally wrong. Law-wise that is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a punishable offense (in my state its a Life sentence).

Fucking really? A life sentence if a brother happened to sleep with his sister? I just... what in the fuck? How is that right? Here in Australia, two incest convictions can land you on a sex offenders list, alongside the peadophiles and rapists (unless I am somehow mistaken).

A life sentence? That is just downright fucking disgusting.

BathorysGraveland2:

amaranth_dru:
Apparently most of the US thinks its morally wrong. Law-wise that is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a punishable offense (in my state its a Life sentence).

Fucking really? A life sentence if a brother happened to sleep with his sister? I just... what in the fuck? How is that right? Here in Australia, two incest convictions can land you on a sex offenders list, alongside the peadophiles and rapists (unless I am somehow mistaken).

A life sentence? That is just downright fucking disgusting.

The US tends to be much more touchy with any affairs of sex, regardless of how the sex is related.

There was a documentary about how movies get slammed with harsh ratings for small sexual inclusions, while horrifically violent films can get as low as a PG-13 rating.
IDK, maybe the film thing is applicable in other countries as well, but I can only speak for my own.

In all honesty, if two closely related people want to have consensual sexual relations then all power to them! If I am honest, bro/sis or sis/sis porn is hot as hell (mostly!) and, so long as they are being careful to avoid babies with 3 eyes and antennae, who are we to tell them to stop?

And before anyone asks, no - I'm an only child!

is incest morally wrong?
Im not sure if it's morally wrong but it's certainly an extremely strange thing to want to do.

should incest be legally banned?
it is isn't it?

does the act of incest disgust you?
yes

Oh, and as far as I remember, it's legal in the UK to sleep with or even marry your cousin...if not an entirely common occurrence!

I think that's one law we can thank Henry VIII for - I can't be arsed to check, though!

And once again, in my case the answer is "no". I'm not saying I wouldn't but I haven't.

should it be illegal - no
does is sicken me - Hell, yes.
I am sorry but that thought is just really disgusting to me.
I remember a discussion with somebody on the Bioware Forums about DA 2 before release, were they were ranting about the fact that there was no possibility to do your siblings.

Yeah, fun times....

Arakasi:

CpT_x_Killsteal:

Arakasi:

Agreed entirely.
Although I think that having a child from incest (however close the relation is that is considered statistically dangerous for the child) should certainly be banned.

But what about if they used that gene selection thingy-ma-bobby that chose that healthiest genes?
And assuming that doesn't work what about just making them have abortions if it's shown that the fetus has physical or mental disabilities?

That'd be fine assuming it were all accurate.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person trolling these forums that has watched Evangelion,GATTACA, Babylon 5, Star Trek, Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell.

In this context Eugenics probably doesn't sound that bad, but its like with CCTV, yes, it can be used to spy on you but its only going up for your safety. Well, it's up now, may as well use it to its full potential.

-Is incest morally wrong? Not if it's consensual.

-In the case of no possible offspring? As long as it's consensual.

-With offspring? Seeing as children that are born to close relatives only have a 1-3% higher chance than non-relatives of having a genetic abnormality, that being said as long as it's consensual.

-Should incest be legally banned? No, there's not real reason to ban it.

-Does the act of incest disgust you? As long as it's consensual, it's doesn't worry me either way, just like homosexual sex.

Incest is disgusting and leads to the degradation of the family that is doing the act.

The Ubermensch:

Arakasi:

CpT_x_Killsteal:

But what about if they used that gene selection thingy-ma-bobby that chose that healthiest genes?
And assuming that doesn't work what about just making them have abortions if it's shown that the fetus has physical or mental disabilities?

That'd be fine assuming it were all accurate.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person trolling these forums that has watched Evangelion,GATTACA, Babylon 5, Star Trek, Blade Runner or Ghost in the Shell.

In this context Eugenics probably doesn't sound that bad, but its like with CCTV, yes, it can be used to spy on you but its only going up for your safety. Well, it's up now, may as well use it to its full potential.

Oh god I hate the movie Gattica. Seriously, despise the thing. And I nothing Blade Runner, I nothing it so very hard.

Ok, I have been quoted to death. Gonna start by reading everything, then snipping so I can reply all at once. Which is gonna be hell on earth with the formatting, but I will try.

Filiecs:

Mr F.:

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason.

But is such disgust universal? If it was universal, then why does incest exist? Also, why are there people who are NOT disgusted by it?

Well, this one is easy: Because people do things which universally disgust other people all the time. One may as well ask why rape or genocide exist (Not that I am equating consensual incest with rape or genocide), people just do shit. Because they enjoy it, because they think that it is right, because morality is subjective (Will expand on that in the end of my post)

Filiecs:

Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us.

First of all, I assume you mean detrimental in the long run of the human species in an environment of natural selection.
If you are talking about things detrimental to the human species then that would put a lot of fetish's and philias on that list like masochism or electrocution. Also, that argument could potentially be used against homosexuality or asexuality. However it can also be argued that not reproducing is beneficial to society at the moment.

Also, the brain is varying levels of plastic. Wires move and change every day. Even if such a reaction was "hard-wired" at some point in time, the lack of natural selection in our society has inevitably led to a large variety in the gene pool. There are undoubtedly at least thousands of people who wouldn't have that "hard wire" you're talking about.

Well, I am tired so I cannot label the exact theory. And yes, I know my own disgust is similar on some levels to that used by people to argue against homosexuality and asexuality. Honestly, I am very sexually liberal with regards to most things. I have nothing against furries etc. What two people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is there business, but I do hold that incest and pedophilia are exclusions to my rule. I will try and explain that at the end of this post (And yes, I DO equate the two.)

Filiecs:

Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting.

Opinion

This entire thread is about opinions. At no point am I stating anything as objective fact. These are simply my opinions on the matter.

Filiecs:

Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else.

That power balance does not need to affect anything. You're just making an assumption that such distances in power (even if there WAS one in said family) would cause trouble in the first place.

Yes, I am, and I will explain that at the end of my post.

Filiecs:

Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

Opinion

I never stated it was anything OTHER then opinion. I find it disgusting. I find the idea of siblings fucking to be disgusting.

Filiecs:

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting.

You still have yet to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

And I accept that I cannot prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Its an opinion. It cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt. It is simply my opinion. I will try and expand at the end.

Filiecs:

The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

Evidence that your claim is highly influenced by your opinion.

Which I never denied. Why is it that on this forum people seem to think that EVERY OPINION had is held by someone to be beyond any doubt? I do not think my opinion is universal. I think it is an opinion. So many arguments spawn from people refusing to accept that opinions are just bloody opinions.

Filiecs:

I mean, I can partially understand it.

Good, a concession.

See above. Its an opinion. I can understand most things, from genocide onwards. I can see the logic behind it, I can see why people do it, I just do not agree with it on any level. Because, in my opinion, it is wrong. Are you seeing a pattern here? xD

Filiecs:

The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

You are making a sweeping generalization based on personal experience. What evidence do you have that says that the two types of love MUST be exclusive?

Did I state that it is exclusive? Not really, no. I stated that the love between your partner is different to the love between your siblings. Because, for the vast majority of people, it is. Can I prove that with a statistic? Well, No. Just find a friend with a hot sibling or a hot parent and ask if they like the idea of fucking them. Chances are they will say no. Very very few people seem to actively think about fucking their family members.

Filiecs:

Finally? There is a reason people sometimes choose not to date their closest friends.

Not everyone believes that is a good reason.

"Sometimes choose not to". I did not state it was a good reason. Personally, I do not think it is a good reason. Then again, I can currently see why it is not a good idea. What with my best friend and I recently going through a breakup that is getting progressively messier as time passes. But that is all subjective and, you know, opinion.

Filiecs:

Because if it gets fucked up it can destroy friendships. The potential for things to get fucked up if you are fucking your family members is much, MUCH higher and much more destructive.

Frankly, a fucked up relationship is almost always the result of immaturity on one or both sides and the lack of being willing to work things through. Also, there are MANY people who marry their best friends and have been perfectly happy. There are also examples of incestual relationships actually turning out fine.

Yes, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. A lot of the time it doesn't. Yes, there are examples of people in incestual relationships having a long and happy life fucking their siblings. And good for them. I still find the idea revolting and I still think it is a very bad idea. There are multiple reasons for a relationship fucking up. Not really related to the discussion though, my point still stands.

Filiecs:

*SNIP*

You have yet to prove that there would be any conflict in the first place. You haven't even proven that said conflict would MOST LIKELY happen.

Um. Well. Statistically, it is unlikely that a relationship will work. So conflict is likely to occur. Conflict occurs in working relationships. Conflict is part of life. So conflict is likely. And if it got out it would ruin your life. That is just how things are right now.

This is without even properly going into the subtle power relationship and how much it would fuck things up.

Filiecs:
I would like to see you go into detail on this.

Will do!

Entitled:

Mr F.:

*SNIP*

Well, that *is* pretty arguable.

Yes, it is. I cannot remember the term, its been a while since I have studied psychology. To use an example, there is a reason why maggots make us feel ill. They are bad for us, they indicate rot, rotten food, things which can harm us. That is the logic I am using.

Entitled:

Evolutionary psychology is quite a faulty source for morality.

Opinion! But you are right. Then again, just about every source of morality is faulty if it is your only source of morality.

Entitled:
Your brain might be hardwired to find incest disturbing, but it's also hardwired to find people who are visibly different from your own monkey tribe revolting.

I disagree.

Entitled:
Hence, racism. Also, to find sex between different monkey tribes revolting. Hence, interracial sex taboos. You are hardwired to always agree with the alpha male, to ensure the survival of your tribe.
Also, you are hardwired to find the most fertile, youngest post-pubescent teenage girls the most attractive. Hence, ephebophilia.

We are living in a civilization now, we ought to think past these stupid remnants that don't necessarily make sense any more, not encourage them.

Yes and no. Yes, with regards to interracial sex taboos and all of that shit. Yes, with regards to the very concept of race. No with regards to incest, bestiality and pedophilia.

Entitled:

Mr F.:

*SNIP*

That's not a biological problem, but a social one.

Yes, it is.

Entitled:
The idea that a relationship where you are bumping uglies is somehow more likely to "get fucked up" than one where you don't, is entirely caused by sex taboos.

I disagree. More emotions are usually involved, sex complicates things. Not due to social taboos, but due to the endorphins and hormones involved, due to the vulnerability, due to two people having different sex drives etc etc etc.

Entitled:

It's a bit like saying that we shouldn't allow gays to adopt children, because they would be bullied in school for it.

Yes, it is, although I would never argue that.

Entitled:

Which is technicaly true, but there is no fundamental reason for it to be that way to begin with, so it's a problem to be solved, not a barrier. Rather than limiting ourselves, it's more moral to create a world where gay parents' children don't get bullied, even if it's harder.

I agree, and that is a world we should strive towards. However, I do not hold that we should strive towards the acceptance of incest.

Right, now the thing which people wanted me to elaborate on.

Power relationships in families are weird. Every-ones family is unique, yes, but in MOST cases, the parents have the most power and the children have the least. There is a distinct hierarchy present. The same reasoning as to why teachers should not fuck their students applies here. Power relationships, a position of care. It is frowned upon because people are on different levels, that the opportunity for exploitation is HUGE.

Now, is this just societal? Well, Yes, Yes it is. Is it a problem though? In my eyes, No.

People with power fucking people without it should always be frowned upon, should always be stopped where possible.

I simply do not think it is possible to have a healthy romantic relationship with a family member. I simply do not. Yes, you can state that some people do. And that's great for those people. But they, in my eyes, are the outliers. The exceptions. Not the majority.

Now, should something be ruled against just because in the majority of cases it is bad? Well, Technically no. That is referred to as the Tyranny of the Majority, and it is a major problem in some democracies. But much like it is technically possible for someone who is 12 to have a totally and utterly consensual relationship with someone who is 19 does not mean that should be legal. That is an exception. It is possible, but unlikely.

That is the view I have. Personally, Incest revolts me. I accepted that this is just an opinion. It obviously does not revolt you (Although... Part of me, call it the cynic, thinks it is *not* revolting you because you feel like you must argue that it is totally fine because doing so is part of being liberal, accepting just about anything. Call me a cynic if you will.). But I think it is unhealthy to accept incest, pedophilia or bestiality. Because I rank them all the same.

Exploiting someone, or something, that does not have the same power as you. It is wrong. A prison guard should not fuck a prisoner, no matter how consensual it is.

Now it gets different when ages change. And when it is siblings and not parents. I can see the argument that there is nothing wrong with, say, two siblings fucking once they are in their 20's. Because its none of our business etc etc etc. But...

The idea is unhealthy.

Sorry.

We are programmed to find other people outside of our family units to partner up with. Hell, I am no evolutionary biologist but it is rather easy to argue that homosexuality is evolutionarily selected for (A humans primary purpose is not to breed, if it was the menopause would kill because they would now be dead weight. You want me to get into my theory on that matter, PM me, it doesn't have a place here.). But my point is simple, we are supposed to find people outside of our units to live with.

Its what we do. Its what the vast majority do. You get the idea.

For fear of insulting anyone, I find the idea that you are making the decision that your sexual partner should be someone directly related to you to be a sign that you are mentally ill. End of. If you cannot form that kind of connection with someone outside of your family you have issues. You need to get out a lot more. If there are not people around, you need to move.

The Ubermensch:

Mr F.:

- Morally wrong? Yes.
- In the case of no possible offspring? Still wrong, yes.
- With offspring? A new level of wrong.

- Should incest be legally banned? Yes.
- Does the act of incest disgust you? Yes.

Its arguable that certain acts which evoke instant disgust universally do so for a reason. Our brain is hardwired to find such acts disgusting because they are detrimental to us.

I'm pretty sure our brains are hardwired to make decisions. I'm not an animal, acting on instinct, are you? Admit that you've made a judgement, be it a personal one or one that you've been taught to make.

I never denied that I had made a judgment. This thread is about opinions. We are not talking about whether or not gravity exists, we are talking about whether or not we morally agree with something. Which is not objective, everyones morals are subjective. Bleh.

Even if you discount any chance of offspring, it is still revolting. Between a parent and child it is revolting due to the power balance and everything else. Between siblings it is slightly less vomit inducing yet it is still disgusting on just about every level.

Psychologically I'll agree, but you can't just blanket the entire human race with having one rationale

I am not talking from a religious standpoint or a genetic standpoint. From a psychological and sociological standpoint, it is revolting. The mere thought of it makes me feel slightly ill.

>Makes me slightly ill
>me

The thought of gay sex makes a lot of people feel ill; these people generally have repressed homosexual feelings

[/quote]

I actually find that logic to be hilarious. Some people just do not like the idea, at all. And some of those people are strait. I know its comforting to think that EVERYONE who finds something disgusting is secretly in denial. But it simply is not true.

Do you like maggots? (Not equating gay sex to maggots, I have a fucking phobia of maggots). Very, Very few people do. Those that do not like maggots are revolted by maggots. Those that are revolted by maggots do not want to fuck maggots.

I mean, I can partially understand it. The bond between parents and their children is unique, as is the bond between siblings. I know I love my sisters more then I could (currently) love a partner. But you love your partners in a very different way. It might still be unconditional love (hopefully) but it is a different kind of love.

Woah...

Diggy Shiggy

*SNIP*

*SNIP*

That was the most beautiful denying of ones own feelings I have ever seen.

I think you need to have a talk with your sisters and tell them about your feelings[/quote]

Didnt quote you in the huge reply I made. Sorry. Also, sorry if this is a double post.

I like how you are implying that I have feelings towards my sisters because I find incest revolting. Its such an awesome piece of logic. Like when people say "Thou Doth Protest Too Much".

It is possible for someone to just hate an idea. I despise capitalism, under your logic I am an anarcho-capitalist in denial. Nope.

Please actually address my points.

Oh god I fucked up the formatting. And I cannot work out how to fix it. I am rather tired and I need to go and get my washing from the laundrette.

Just a quick request to humanity in general: Can we please stop assuming that everyone who dislikes something secretely loves it? I find it annoying. I find it an infuriating way of people trying to end arguments. I know in some cases its true, some of the most violent homophobes are homosexuals in denial. Yet I think you will find that a lot, probably MOST homophobes are not homosexuals in denial. Much like a lot, quite probably most, people who are anti-racism are not massive racists.

The logic is just stupid.

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