Game of thrones: why is it so WRONG.?

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Kakulukia:

Second, those are petty complaints. Daenerys' story in ACoK was fucking boring. The show added some much needed excitement to the whole thing. Arya's conversations with Tywin in the show were outstanding, and would have been impossible if they followed the original story exactly.

I have to say that i really hate the arya/tywin scenes. Not because they were not in the book, but because they make the whole chapter of Aryas journey way less realistic.
They even show us that Tywin knows that Arya is a noble from the north and yet he doesn't do anything about it, something that makes no sense. Tywin is not someone who would let a possible advantage slip through his fingers.

The way I see it, as someone who hasn't read the books, is that it's better when a TV series branches off from its source material.

The Walking Dead and Dexter both do this as well. If they were verbatim adaptations, what need would anyone have for the book?

I don't know exactly, but I must say that after seeing the first 2 TV seasons, I bought the 3rd book and found it pretty painful to read. The author tends to overcomplicate and overexplain things way too much with a needlessly complex language. I found it quite difficult to imagine the characters through the writing style.

In other words, I think the TV show creators really know what they're doing when streamlining stuff. I noticed some odd things here and there, but overall, I'm not aware of any book to TV adaptation that went so well.

I can't believe the amount of petty bitching on this thread. Game of Thrones as a TV series has been almost universally acclaimed, it is up there with the best television around. Sure it's not perfect but neither are the books (or anything). Why don't you all just stop whinging and enjoy it for what it is. If you think you can do it better go out and do it yourself.

The_Echo:
The Walking Dead and Dexter both do this as well. If they were verbatim adaptations, what need would anyone have for the book?

I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.

There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.

And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.

valium:
I don't know where you are in the books, but there's been more than one sign that Daenerys has a touch of the old Targaryen madness. I'm not entirely sold on her ability to lead a nation.

Im waiting for the winds of winter. I haven't read the last few in a while, but i didn't pick up anything about her being mad, though i remember her being awful with hostages. I think tyrion noticed that the blue haired boy was rather reckless. But i think if daenerys is mad it's probably because of the shit she's gone through, rather than her being a genetic lunatic.

I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to live past a certain point but i'm not sure about after that.

Prophecies are the worst plot device.

Kakulukia- Yet you knew what each of these misspellings meant and so did everyone else. There's little reward for pointing them out.

Innocent Flower:
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.

Prophecies are the worst plot device.

Since you're obviously a book reader...

Innocent Flower:
In the books danaerys isn't a spoilt bitch who isn't issuing threats all the time at the worst possible times.

Really? that's how you see her? Odd, because that isn't the impression of her that I personally get from the show. I see her as a young and inexperienced woman, who finds herself in a position of power, and is unsure what to do for the best result. She's figuring it out as she goes, making the best of what she's been given. Which is pretty much how she is in the books. Sorry but I think you are misreading the actresses performance in the show, she doesn't come off as spoilt and spiteful at all.

Innocent Flower:

In the books Jon,Arya, daenerys, bran,rickon theon and many others are far better characters.

Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.

Innocent Flower:

Arya is completely different in the books.

In the tv series she's a weakling.

*blinks* Uh, no, sorry I don't agree with this at all.

Innocent Flower:

Her stay in Harrenhall for instance is entirely different. in the tv series it's shallow. In the books there's a lot of character development for Arya in Harrenhall. The names she gives to Jaqen and the manner she gives them to jaqen allow for far less character development. The way she's taken to Harrenhall is different. The way she rarely sees Tywin is very important (how could you forget to say his name when he's right there like in the tv series?)

Well of course there is more development in the books. The Song of Ice and Fire series is FULL of internal dialogue of the characters. We see what they are thinking and why, which is completely lacking in any visual media that doesn't involve a narrator. The actors have to try and convey with expression and body language, pages of internal conflict/debate/resolution, and that's not always an easy thing to do. The expression for "I'm slowly converting my mind into a sharp blade of hate and vengeance against this man and his family, might also look a lot like the face for "can I hold this fart in or should I sneak it out and hope they don't notice?" That's a comical example of course, but you get my point. And also, you and I might look at the same expression from the actress playing Arya, and come away with completely different interpretations of her internal thoughts. Based on your opinion of her character, I would say that's exactly what's going on.


Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.

Innocent Flower:

Books- One of her handmaidens doesn't survive the red wastes. She sends out her bloodriders in three directions from an abandoned city, one of them comes back with pratt prie, xaro and the vieled woman who wish to take her and her dragons back to the city.

Tv series- She sends out bloodriders. One of them dies. another comes back telling of a city. When she gets to the city she begins making death threats. Then a guy cuts his hands to let her in.

Maybe the actors for those 3 characters weren't available to shoot the "come riding into the desert to welcome you" scene? Maybe that was shot 3 months before at the beginning of filming, and then 3 months later, when Pratt Prie, Xaro and the other members of the 13 could all be on set at once, they shot the "welcome to Qaurth" scene? As far as the part about her death threats, she seemed to me, to be pretty desperate and exhausted at that point, and was just flailing about, hoping to get a result. You go walking through the desert for weeks with little food/water and see how coherent your train of thought is.

Innocent Flower:

Books- People offer her gifts, xaro (who's hinted at not being hetrosexual) wishes to marry her for her dragons, she is trying to buy ships. She's politely invited into the house of the undying with the promise of knowledge.

Tv- Xaro has a wonderful vault with nothing in it. He betrays her for dragons with the warlocks. Her dragons get taken, because dragons let themselves be taken. xaro's only prize for the betrayal is one of the handmaidens.

The Undying's invitation was nothing but polite in the TV show. ^_^ Creepy, yes, but very VERY polite.

Innocent Flower:

also in the books the Reeds arrive before theon arrives. They become good friends with bran and hide with him in the crypts during the sacking. None of this creepy bullshit that they seem to be doing in the tv series.

Again, this is due to the limitations of tv. Some of the elements that happened later in the series, have been moved up for plot flow purposes. This is just going to be a reality of the show. Ask yourself "What difference does it make who hid Bran in the crypts? And what difference does it make if the Reeds join them a few weeks later in the overall journey?" So what? They're still with Bran now, and able to fulfill their role to the story, the only thing changed was their introduction to the audience. Possibly they did it for a more dramatic scene? Perhaps it was a spot where it didn't make sense for them to be hanging out in the crypts, given the location of the crypts. Really, who cares? It's a fairly minor point about the progression of plot/characters, and if this is the kind of thing you are going to get upset about, then perhaps you shouldn't watch the show. I doubt such things are going to stop happening, so you're probably just going to work yourself up over fairly trivial aspects of the story.

Happyninja42:
Really? Hard to say they are better characters in the books, because they got almost zero page-time in the series. GRRM spent so much book time focusing on Sansa and Cercie and the court insanity...sorry intrigue, that we barely saw anything of what Jon or Arya or Bran were doing. They'd get maybe a 2 page chapter, then we'd have to suffer through 200 pages of internal dialogue from Sansa's point of view. Sorry but I think the show has done a spectacular job of fleshing out Jon, Arya, Bran, etc given the minimal amount of source material to work with. The sad reality is that, regardless of how awesome these characters are, and indeed they are awesome, GRRM simply did not put any focus on them in the first few books. I've yet to read the most recent published book, but up to that one, they were the "meanwhile above the Wall" kind of cutaway thing, he would stick in. He'd give us a teaser bit of the actual cool stuff going on, and then bore you to tears again with more of the political plot. So as far as the material the tv show is working off of, they simply have to make up more of what these characters are, compared to the source material.

Really. I can't recall the exact allotment of time to each individual character, but I believe either Dany or Tyrion had the most POV chapters, with Jon right behind them. Sansa has had little attention since Storm of Swords, serving mainly as a window for Littlefinger's machinations. Bran has a ton of chapters in both SoS and ADWD. I'm actually kind of confused what books you're reading. I suspect you are letting your distaste for the "boring political plot" color your impression of which characters are getting the most attention.

That said, I think the portrayal of Jon and Dany on the show has been more or less fine.

Happyninja42:
Maybe the producers/writers felt that it would make better narrative sense/flow to have that particular situation take place with a different character? GRRM has said himself in the commentary that he has made the story so thick and complex, that it's simply too big and unwieldy for a tv show. Hell, that was what he set out to do when he first made the books. To make a story that wasn't constrained by the limitations of tv and movies. Well he did that obviously, and now he's having to make radical changes to things to make it fit into the tv show. Things have to change for various reasons.

Well, again. Anyone with common sense knew the books would need to be GREATLY condensed to fit into a 10 episode per season television show. At twice the length you'd still need to cut gratuitously. That's part of the reason I forgive the show somewhat for its absolutely dreadful pacing issues...I know they have entirely too much material to cover and nowhere near enough time to do it justice.

There's condensing, though, and then there's just dicking around to dick around. I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation, for example, of the Jeyne/Talissa swap, or the complete re-write of Shae's character, or the removal of significant tracks of Sansa/Sandor's interaction so that we can have another 10 minutes of Roz looking gormless. You can't just throw a blanket over every bad decision make by the show runners and say "they were difficult books to bring to the screen". Of course they were. They get infinite laurels for even TRYING to do this. They get plenty of shit for the things they screw up for no good reason. One does not cancel out the other.

BloatedGuppy:

Innocent Flower:
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.

Prophecies are the worst plot device.

Since you're obviously a book reader...

I hadn't considered that. I honestly expected that she'd bring her dragons to the wall though (they're the ultimate otherkilling machines) . The knights watch also being armed with wildfire at somepoint.

Other theories of mine (absolutely massive spoilers)

Innocent Flower:
In the third book she kills the ticker and his men in an inn with the hound, she reclaims needle during this fight. How can she fight them in the tv series if they're already dead?

This whole thing is going to have to be spoiler tagged

Innocent Flower:
Other theories of mine (massive spoilers)

BloatedGuppy:

The_Echo:
The Walking Dead and Dexter both do this as well. If they were verbatim adaptations, what need would anyone have for the book?

I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.

There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.

And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.

I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Honestly I can't be too angry with what they have done yet. I see the small changes they are making as opportunities to save money. Such as...

I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

Ishal:
I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.

Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.

Ishal:
On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".

Ishal:

I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.

Ishal:
I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.

Ishal:
I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

You're not supposed to like stannis. I seriously doubt stannis will get the shaft. He's fucking important.
The red wedding... I don't realy see why not. Then again i can't remember anything being so bad in that that they did't show it.
I think you're right about your third point. Though it'd still be more moving to have him kill shae.

One thing to note is that i don't like the direction they're going with theon. Ironborn don't seem the type to use spies at all. Escaping and defiance also ruins the brokenness that he's supposed to have later on.

Johnny Impact:
A great deal of adaptation was necessary to make Lord of the Rings suitable for the big screen. Whole scenes and characters chopped before filming even began, dialogue shifted and given to other characters, etc. The end result was three of the best adventure movies ever. Have you got a crypt's worth of bones to pick about that as well?

Did you see The Avengers? Are you going to tell us Thor should be this fellow image instead of Chris Hemsworth in magi-tech armor? Or that Hulk should be Frankenstein's monster or Mr Hyde rather than an adaptation of both?

What is this thing people have, this defect that makes them say, "I hate this with every fiber of my being....but give me more!" If adaptation bothers you so much, maybe you could, I dunno, stop watching the series?

Actually, I despise the LotR films. They completely misrepresent Tolkien's vision, focusing only on the warfare in the plot, rather than the moral, social, and anti-industrial narratives Tolkien weaved. The only reason that the LotR films were allowed to be made was because his estate wanted the films to be made before the stories became Public Domain, while they still had some control, which the studio is still attempting to violate with things like the LotR slot-machines.

Avengers was mediocre at best, really.

I do not watch the Game of Thrones TV show, and I walked out in disgust of Fellowship of the Ring halfway through and did not pay to see the other films. So do not ask me why "I don't just stop watching?" because I have indeed. I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?

Innocent Flower:

You might want to employ spoiler tags for some of this. There's no telling if everyone in the thread has read the books.

Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

MopBox:
Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.

BloatedGuppy:

MopBox:
Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.

And another thing!!! Why didn't they cut off Peter Dinklage's nose for realsies!?!

Yeah... but in all seriousness. I understand the effort to humanize the characters a touch more, but I suspect that the audience that Cat's extra exposition was aimed at probably already forgot that she hates Jon Snow. They hadn't brought it up in the series in like two seasons.

BloatedGuppy:

Ishal:
I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.

Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.

Ishal:
On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".

Ishal:

I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.

Ishal:
I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.

Ishal:
I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.

Ishal:
Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.

I didn't HATE his voice acting performance, but it was...pretty out there. All the girls (and Tyrion) sound like leprechauns. I think I'm spoiled by Stephen Pacey's amazing reading of First Law.

BloatedGuppy:

El Danny:
All you guys complaining about the changes in the TV series do realise George RR Martin plays a major role in the shows plot development? Most changes are ran though George before they're written in, or are his ideas to begin with.

That's not saying much. If you paid attention to his blog leading up to the release of the series, you'd have noticed that Martin had a major case of the fanboys going on. He seems absolutely tickled pink to see his material up on the screen, and I suspect he's not too arsed one way or the other about changes. That's fine if he approves the changes...they're his books and ultimately it's his show as well...but that doesn't make them good changes.

Not arsed about the changes? Despite the fact he turned down an offer to turn the ASoIaF into movies before HBO offered him a contract on the basis that a movie series wouldn't have enough screen length do it justice?

Ryan Hughes:
I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?

Dear diary: today I was told off by Some Misanthrope On The Internet. I may never sleep soundly again.

(You'll have to imagine the tear-smudged ink.)

BloatedGuppy:

Innocent Flower:
I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.

Prophecies are the worst plot device.

Since you're obviously a book reader...

I actually have a very different theory on that...

Nepenthe87:
I actually have a very different theory on that...

Ryan Hughes:
I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?

Well that certainly escalated quickly. Clicked on his post to see what he could have possibly said to you to earn such ire turns out that that's all he said and it wasn't even directed at you. Also I don't think that's how you use the word aesthetics. Could be wrong, don't know every use for every word ever.

BloatedGuppy:

Nepenthe87:
I actually have a very different theory on that...

That only works if...

Solid theories. but you've gotta remember how easy it is to explain how crazy aerys was. Jon can't blame her for killing his grandfather and uncle that he never knew. she can't realy blame him for killing her crazy father. They're almost the same age . If daenerys has a mistrust for Starks, it's because of Jorah Mormont.

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