Female Friendzone?

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Ridrith:

Jacco:
And I say this as a social psychology major.

Internet credibility still zero.

It can and does happen.

I'm sorry, to what are you referring?

PhreakyDee:
I was close to being completely friendzoned, but after actually understanding that he was never gonna go anywhere with our "friendship" igot pissed, raged about him, cried a lot and then i moved on. Yes i still remember him, but i am not reminded constantly of how much i would like to be with him and getting crushed everytime i am "just one of the guys".

So, yes . It happens to women, but i guess we are just not as loud about it. Mostly because we feel it as a horrible defeat and we do not like to dwell in those with all the feelin and period stuff we also have to focus on...

So basically what you're saying is that you are the "friend zoned" person who my entire post was railing against?

Phasmal:

senordesol:

The 'whatever, just date someone else' attitude really shows a lack of understanding or care for the emotional weight unrequited love can put on a person. Yes: it is a self-imposed state, and yes: lashing out against the one who spurned you isn't fair (and I'm sorry it happened to you). But it's there! Some people never see it, and some people are good at avoiding it, but it is a thing! Some sympathy, rather than cynicism would not go amiss.

The emotions wrapped up in it can be crippling and are worth far more examination than 'eh, learn 2 deel wiht rejection n00b!'. Jeez, would you (metaphorical, not actual) tell a kid to 'just get over it' when the dog he raised from a puppy dies?

I still think you are presenting those people too much as victims.
And maybe some of them are. Obviously, everyone experiences heartbreaks, and some that stay with them for a very long time.
But being hurt does not entitle people to act however they want.

I don't feel I should have to sympathize with the person who was horrible to me, because they certainly didn't sympathize with me.

I would not tell a kid to `just get over it`, but I also would not sympathize if he decided that the dog dying meant he could strangle the cat.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying that there aren't people who are truly good and get hurt. There are. I'm just saying portraying this as a one-sided black-and-white issue is oversimplifying.

If they are 'victims', they are making victims of themselves. Again I argue that FZ is more a self-imposed depressive condition than anything else. BUT that absolutely DOES NOT excuse lashing out at anyone just because they rebuffed you. As stated previously, it is NOT fair to give someone that sort of power over you without their knowing or consent. So we're in agreement on that much. :)

If I am portraying this as black-and-white, I apologize. That's not my intent. Again, I stress: I only wish to dispel the notion that FZ does not exist. The other considerations (i.e. what happens afterward) are well worth exploring, of course. It is perfectly possible for someone to be depressed AND a jerk (as what sounds like was the case with your...friend). I don't dispute that for a second.

Certainly a discussion along the lines of 'So you're in the friendzone, what now?' would be productive. But these constant protestations that someone 'was only in it for the sex and needs to learn how to handle rejection' are false and, frankly, infuriating (nothing directed at you, specifically, of course).

People who act in a vindictive fashion for being in the friendzone are reproachable, I agree. People who willingly, however, act within the best interest of their friend or friendship once sequestered there are admirable. In both cases, however, its very existence has to be established as truth.

dunam:

senordesol:

I've already admitted that I've got baggage in this conversation.

I feel the wikipedia definition fails to explore the real crux of the matter (the one pertinent to this conversation, anyway) and propagates my issues with the over-all dismissive attitudes toward people afflicted by such a condition. The notion that the friendzoned were only after sex or should 'just move on' is dismissive, insulting, and pretty damn cruel.

The pining and ever-present frustration deserves a mention as does the resentment and depression. Now, while we can debate the definition all day, I'm more interested in disabusing the notions that the condition does not exist at all - that heavily invested unrequited lovers unable to satisfy their romantic needs are simply being over-dramatic.

Guess what? We all have baggage. We're just not bringing it with us into the conversation.

People who are friend zoned are not necessarily heavily invested or over dramatic. But you were in your past experiences and think therefor the definition of the word should be exactly what you experienced it to be. I think you would be much more happy and succesful relationshipwise if you focused a little less on yourself, your pain and needs and started listening and paying attention at what happens around you.

Because changing the definition of a word to include your personal experiences with it, that's going slightly far.

Fine. I'll accept that. But the concern remains: do you agree that it exists either in the clinical definition you describe or my over-dramatic contention?

girls dont get 'friend zoned', no self respecting guy would do that to a girl.

we 'bro zone' them.

its hilarious, try it out some time.

"hey derp, heard you were feeling a bit sick so I brought you some soup!"

"thanks bro!"

"wat."

"bro, your just like one of the bro's, bro!"

edit: its hard to get out of the brozone once you get there.

Jacco:

PhreakyDee:
I was close to being completely friendzoned, but after actually understanding that he was never gonna go anywhere with our "friendship" igot pissed, raged about him, cried a lot and then i moved on. Yes i still remember him, but i am not reminded constantly of how much i would like to be with him and getting crushed everytime i am "just one of the guys".

So, yes . It happens to women, but i guess we are just not as loud about it. Mostly because we feel it as a horrible defeat and we do not like to dwell in those with all the feelin and period stuff we also have to focus on...

So basically what you're saying is that you are the "friend zoned" person who my entire post was railing against?

What I replied to in my first post was simply that males has a tendency to just see a female being rejected only to go after the first and the best on their "secret 'who is to be my boyfriend' list", giving an illusion that she took the first one for granted. What he does not see is the endless insecurity and personal torture she is unleashing upon herself. What most friendzoned guys rarely see is that there may actually be a girl just waiting for them to stop worrying about their friendzoning so that he can go right over to her and say hi. But in most cases he is friendzoning her. It's an annoying circle in which I don't really see a bad one, just a bunch of confused and lost people.

Females tend to boil rejection up in themselves, mostly because, yes. It is usually the male who is to be the one "going for it." When it's the female she tends to take a "bigger social risk" when it comes to the "younger ages" (Read late teen).

As for myself, this was a one-timer. I've not really tried it again because I'm scared of being rejected, tending to keep such emotions boiled up, and guys who is overly friendly (read bring flowers, wanna go watch a movie just us two, stuff like that) towards me tend to freak me out. Then again I can only really speak for myself. I need observable subjects ._.

Maybe I am that, maybe not. Note it took me quite a while to get over that guy. quite a lot longer than it would have taken, had we started dating and then broken up after just a week...

Evil Smurf:

senordesol:

Evil Smurf:
The "friendzone" does not exist: Man up, grow a pair and ask said person of desire out. If you are rejected, realise that not everyone want to get in your pants.

If you want to get laid so badly go to a bar and get some floozy drunk.

It's dismissals like these that make me sad. Dismissals like these that make the friendzone all the more lonely.

It's not about sex. It's not even about the object of desire. It's the crushing knowledge that you are not good enough -not for her- and, apparently, not for anyone.

The friendzone does exist. I have tread that lonely valley before. It is not a matter of 'sacking up'. If no one wants you; the sack gets you no further be it full or empty.

It sounds like you want friendship. This sounds brash, but how hard is it to go up to classmates or someone at a cafe and just talk to them? Seriously I've no issue with talking to people and making friends.

Not everyone is good in social situations though. I have social anxiety. The idea of having to go up and talk to someone terrifies me. There are times I can't even leave the house because I am too scared to deal with people.

What Bat Vader said. I don't have social anxiety, but introverted as I am, I've never asked a girl out on a date officially. It's easier to start out as friends. BTW, here's an interesting article that mentions research data that introverts tend more towards two types of love: storge, which is love that stems from friendship first and mania, the obssesive type of love. Now, my data realting to myself and friends is anecdotal, but that does seem to be the case. A girl that I liked a lot and never actually got anywhere with had me feel storge forher and then a bit of mania, before I "unliked" her. http://www.cracked.com/article_20204_5-psychology-studies-every-awkward-teenager-should-read.html

I tend to have quite a few issues in interacting romantically with women, so it is quite common for me to react in unpredictable ways to someone who I learn is interested in me. This has led to 'friendzoning' women in the past when my lack of confidence simply couldn't handle them.

One thing I have noticed however, is that no woman has ever approached me directly to say that she liked me, although endlessly implied by other means. It may be one of the reasons I react so badly to those types of 'signals' as I do not like to be subtle about what I consider to be important issues.

I am quickly approaching the thirty year old virgin status however, so I'm sure I'll eventually come across a woman who'll approach me as an equal, instead of the elusive and sophisticated lady.

And if not you can always wait for the 40 year mark, when Seth Rogen comes to your aid! Sorry, bad joke, but I couldn't help myself. And yes, why do women use subtlety?? Some people are just emotionally dumb, we need honesty. Girls should be more like guys, I'm sick of these gender roles! We tried to hit it off with a girl I know and it didn't wok out, but we're still friends, and what I like about her is that she was the initiator! Though maybe that is due to her being a bit of a tomboy (likes and trains kickboxing, climbing, dead baby jokes and so on)... Whatever, there need to be more girls like this! Of course a lot of guys, me included like coyness, but not at this expense.

Because it's a male only thing, as simple as that.

Boys are those who think if they are nice with a girl, that girl with give them a BJ for a reward. Girls don't have this escheved way of thinking, so that's why no girl ever complains about being friendzoned.

...
404 Error. No reply found to someone who didn't pause to read ANYTHING of what anyone has said on the topic.

rhodo:
Because it's a male only thing, as simple as that.

Boys are those who think if they are nice with a girl, that girl with give them a BJ for a reward. Girls don't have this escheved way of thinking, so that's why no girl ever complains about being friendzoned.

How can the friendzone be a male only thing when you admit yourself in your own comment that girls are also friendzoned?

Contrived ways of thinking is what makes the relations between men and women so difficult to properly communicate, men have one way of thinking of romance and women usually have another entirely, yet both sides of the gender fence tends to experience the same thing.

senordesol:

Fine. I'll accept that. But the concern remains: do you agree that it exists either in the clinical definition you describe or my over-dramatic contention?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

Do I agree the friend zone exists? In the same way that love relationships exists or that people who aren't brothers or sisters, can consider themselves brothers and sisters fo each other. It's a social construct and it has value.

What you call 'your over-dramatic contention' (I'd sooner say personal definition or personal experience with the friend zone), I do not think the advice to 'move on' is dismissive, insulting or cruel. It's the best thing to do to spare your own feelings in the long run. Therefor it's good advice. Not all medicine tastes good. Just because it doesn't taste good doesn't mean that the person dispensing it doesn't symphatize or realize what you're going through.

I'd assume ugly chicks who are fun to party with get friendzoned as opposed to nozoned. Though iunno, I couldn't see it happening too much.

Also its hilarious how many people think the friendzone isn't a real thing. Being in the friendzone means you get rejected romantically but not socially. How is that debatable as even close to not being a real thing? I mean it's not arbitrary by any means, you get put in the friendzone for a REASON, I think people often get cause and effect mixed up when it comes to the friendzone, but it's undeniably a real social happening.

Lilani:
I really don't like calling it "attraction" because I feel like that doesn't delineate between pure physical attraction and romantic chemistry. I don't like conflating the two because I think it's more complicated than that. One does not necessarily lead to the other, but sometimes it can. I don't see them as the same thing, because if physical attraction on its own is always the silver bullet when it comes to true love then that doesn't explain why old couples can remain in love long into their golden years. There is an element of physical attraction to love, to be sure, but if that's all you're going to base your relationships on then they aren't going to have much staying power, and you're going to have to rely upon you're going to hope both of your standards change as you get up in years.

Also, I think the definition you provided for "romantic chemistry" is exactly the opposite of what I meant. It's not "I'm not attracted to them and I don't know what to call it," having romantic chemistry is "I'm attracted to them and I don't know exactly why."

All true. Most relationships need both a physical attraction as well as a basis of common ground. Whereas a friendship is generally just the latter and not the former. So you can see how I might draw the conclusion that a "friendzone" situation would be exactly that.

Also, when I defined romantic chemistry, I was defining it from the perspective of someone declaring that there was none. I can see how that may be confusing, my bad. But we do have the same definition.

So interesting reading through this thread, I'd never even heard of a "friend-zone" before.

Other people are usually there n a capacity which you yourself want them to be without even realizing. You may feel you want to be with someone, but in reality you may not actually be ready to undertake the practical things which that entails, so thus you may fall into this "friendzone".

For example, from a bloke's perspective you may want after a gal, but you may not be working or earning yet. So even though said gal may like you, even fancy you a bit, her instinct could be putting her off you because your not ready to fulfill your role as part of the partnership yet - in this case as a provider. Thus, your "friendzone" exists in this case so that you can better yourself, get earning and become a more desirable partner all round and in the long-term. This is just an example mind, I'm not saying all relationships or people work that way lol.

Basically I'd just crack on and not worry about it. If you like someone and they "friendzone" you try and better yourself in the ways you want to in life (not which just appease them), and see if that helps. Instead of trying to want someone try and want to show them how good you are instead. Either way you're doing something positive and moving yourself towards what you want out of life, be it with or without them.

Easier said than done of course lol.

Eleuthera:
This actually made me wonder. Is there any difference between a girl/woman who keeps sleeping with a guy hoping for him to change his mind and accept the relationship. And the guy who keeps being nice/being there/being friendzoned in the hope for the same?

Having been the girl/woman sleeping with a friend I was in love with because I was sure that if I gave him everything while asking for nothing in return he'd decide off of his own back to make a commitment to me despite having nothing to gain from it... I can quite assuredly say that I was equally if not more pathetic as anyone who does the same but without the sex bit.

hooblabla6262:
Most relationships need both a physical attraction as well as a basis of common ground.

I'd just like to pop up to point out that while this is true, physical attraction often develops after romantic attraction. Personally, I've had a habit of meeting people that I initially objectively find rather physically unappealling, but once they open their mouths I inexplicably want to have lots of sex with them. In fact I've even formed two long term relationships with such people.

I think this is also why, after a nasty break up, a person can look back on a person they've dated and go 'How did I not realise how ugly they are?'

(Edited last sentence because of clumsy construction.)

I have "friend zoned" a lady before, she approached me as if she was entitled to have my affections simply because she thought she was desirable, that I should be thankful for her advances because I'm less than attractive.
I suppose when I realised that she felt like she could treat me like that because "boys always want it" I made a point to treat her interactions as sexual harassment. Felt like shit to be objectified like that.
Funnily enough after I made a point of not showing her any romantic interest she tried pretty hard in more traditional ways to make me fall for her. Of course I never let her have the satisfaction of returning the affection.

I suppose the friend zone thing is a male partner-entitlement issue.

Female partner-entitlement is a slightly different beast, denying that probably doesn't cont as friend-zoning.

Both types of partner-entitlement is a disgusting product of modern society

lisadagz:
I think this is also why, after a nasty break up, a person can look back on a person they've dated and go 'How did I not realise how ugly they are?'

I recently read some literature that suggested that people in happy relationships will continue to find each other attractive indefinitely. For example, a happily married couple of which both halves are getting grey, wrinkly and fat will still find each other attractive in spite of there being no physical reason.
The human mind is a powerful thing.

OT: I imagine due to the fundamental differences in how males and females think. The "friendzone" could only be a male invention, to be used by males in the majority.
They say you don't get many female spree-killers because females tend to internalise their problems and blame them on themselves. Well blaming the "friendzone" is a way of blaming another party, instead of yourself.
Something a male is much more likely to do.

Kalezian:
girls dont get 'friend zoned', no self respecting guy would do that to a girl.

we 'bro zone' them.

its hilarious, try it out some time.

"hey derp, heard you were feeling a bit sick so I brought you some soup!"

"thanks bro!"

"wat."

"bro, your just like one of the bro's, bro!"

edit: its hard to get out of the brozone once you get there.

"sorry, bro, not interested, I don't swing that way."

-"so, wait, you're gay?"

"no, but you're my bro, that'd make it gay."

-"I'm a girl!" D:<

"Still my bro."

Lilani:
In my experience, the kind of timid/awkward guys who can't be upfront enough to get the answers they want are usually not the same ilk whose first desire upon entering a relationship is to get in their partner's pants as soon as physically possible. Chances are if they're that timid and inexperienced they haven't even held hands or kissed before, so they've got quite a few steps to make before they're ready to hop in bed. So first and foremost, can we please stop conflating "getting in a relationship" with "getting in each other's pants?" It really makes a lot of unhelpful and often inaccurate assumptions about the people we're talking about and the situations they're in.

...I was talking about the way this gets responded to, and it is very often put into "getting in her pants" terms. My whole point was that if you *did* choose to try to take time away from them because, well, you're hurt and being around them certainly isn't helping that is how it gets painted -- taking nonzero time to get over such a rejection is treated as "proof" that you were never their friend and were only trying to get in their pants, more or less completely independent of the traits of the guy in question.

Lieju:
People can misread the gestures of others, though, and project their own feelings into their behaviour.
I say this as a someone who has apparently 'misled' several guys by simply being nice to them and talking with them about shared interests.
Because that's apparently 'flirting'...

Some people just give off that vibe. On a former blog I used to read there was a trans woman who complained about that -- apparently everything she does comes off as flirty, at least after she transitioned (the same set of behaviors were apparently very romantically unsuccessful before she transitioned).

Kroxile:
People can think XXX, but as long as you know differently, what else matters?

That could have been the motto of my adolescence. It's a lot less helpful than it sounds, including if you think it doesn't sound helpful at all.

Combustion Kevin:

Kalezian:
girls dont get 'friend zoned', no self respecting guy would do that to a girl.

we 'bro zone' them.

its hilarious, try it out some time.

"hey derp, heard you were feeling a bit sick so I brought you some soup!"

"thanks bro!"

"wat."

"bro, your just like one of the bro's, bro!"

edit: its hard to get out of the brozone once you get there.

"sorry, bro, not interested, I don't swing that way."

-"so, wait, you're gay?"

"no, but you're my bro, that'd make it gay."

-"I'm a girl!" D:<

"Still my bro."

haha that was a nice response, all i can think of is that "meth" meme:

"Bros, not even once."

Lilani:
In my experience, the kind of timid/awkward guys who can't be upfront enough to get the answers they want are usually not the same ilk whose first desire upon entering a relationship is to get in their partner's pants as soon as physically possible. Chances are if they're that timid and inexperienced they haven't even held hands or kissed before, so they've got quite a few steps to make before they're ready to hop in bed.

So true. I know the subject isn't the most pleasant, but since I noticed some posts with these comments on 9GAG I've asked some male firends, some who have had and some who, like me, haven't had a girlfriend. When I asekd them if they fapped, to use a more neutral word, while thinking of the object of their affection, most said that they just couldn't and that's my experience too. When you like someone, you first think of them romantically. It's not that you won't notcie their beautiful skin, hair, boobs, ass or whatever, it's just that you know if the time comes for that, you'll see them, but what;s more important is getting to know them. That's how I decide if I like a girl - if I can opnely think about sex with her with details, then I probably jsut find her physically attractive. If I first imagine how we kiss and only that - then it's "fur realz". :D

dunam:

senordesol:

I've already admitted that I've got baggage in this conversation.

I feel the wikipedia definition fails to explore the real crux of the matter (the one pertinent to this conversation, anyway) and propagates my issues with the over-all dismissive attitudes toward people afflicted by such a condition. The notion that the friendzoned were only after sex or should 'just move on' is dismissive, insulting, and pretty damn cruel.

The pining and ever-present frustration deserves a mention as does the resentment and depression. Now, while we can debate the definition all day, I'm more interested in disabusing the notions that the condition does not exist at all - that heavily invested unrequited lovers unable to satisfy their romantic needs are simply being over-dramatic.

Guess what? We all have baggage. We're just not bringing it with us into the conversation.

People who are friend zoned are not necessarily heavily invested or over dramatic. But you were in your past experiences and think therefor the definition of the word should be exactly what you experienced it to be. I think you would be much more happy and succesful relationshipwise if you focused a little less on yourself, your pain and needs and started listening and paying attention at what happens around you.

Because changing the definition of a word to include your personal experiences with it, that's going slightly far.

Not only going to far, it's the kind of thing we see crop up every time one of these friendzone threads is created.

On a related note, the "typical" scenario he envisioned seems to me exceptionally creepy in terms of behavior and expectation.

Evil Smurf:
The "friendzone" does not exist: Man up, grow a pair and ask said person of desire out. If you are rejected, realise that not everyone want to get in your pants.

If you want to get laid so badly go to a bar and get some floozy drunk.

EDIT

*back peddles*
image

After realising that some people don't have my social skills, I offer that I understand the problems they must face. Making friends is an important skill that I IRL take advantage of. Sorry if I upset you.

What do you think the friendzone is? It's when you ask someone and they say "no I just want to be friends".

I think a lot of the time, when men are put in the "friendzone" it's because they feel like they were entitled to the object of their affections, but when that object - and they are objectified - does not return the feeling, they feel cheated and vindictive and women are often made to feel bad for "friendzoning" guys because the guy has the right to fuck or to love them if he's gone through a checklist first. like, if he's nice to you or bought you something, then he has the right to have you in whatever he wants. Because he bought it.

I've liked guys who didn't like me back and after asking them out, they said they'd rather be friends. To which I just got over and moved on, because it's more responsible, mature and healthy than pining over one person and feeling cheated.

Also, I can't help but feel that if a woman get s friendzoned or whatever it's very much made to be her "fault", as if anyone could be at fault in this scenario, for not being pretty enough or for being too sexual or too slow.

Men who believe in the frienzone are just emotionally stunted entitled little douchebags. Women aren't bought up to believe they have a sense of entitlement - hence the lack of female friendzoned persons.

If someone who you have expresses a romantic interest in decides they just want to be friends its up to you weather you want to be "friend zoned" or weather you want to actually be friends with this person, just as they denied your romantic advances you can deny their friendship advances for any reason.

Personally if a girl "says" she wants to be friends I wait for her to make the next contact and see how I feel about it, if and when she does.

If she never calls then that's that. No friendship there.
If she wants to hook you up with one of her friends, OK, maybe not so bad.
If she wants to use you as a date buffer between flings...not friend behavior IMO.
If she only contacts you after a breakup and disappears with her next relationship...nope not gonna happen.
If she just wants some civil conversation that doesn't involve dating or relationships, sounds OK.
The list goes on.

Many of the women I encounter realize I have feelings for them and try to take advantage, I just remember if they are gonna be my "friend" then we are on equal footing, many tell me that Ive changed or I'm acting different. I just tell them "I thought you wanted to be friends". When they realize I'm not gonna buy them dinner or get in my car and pick them up and drop them off anymore they don't seem to want to be friends anymore. I'm sure there is a similar situation for men wanting to "friend zone" women to use them as well.

*disclaimer: This is not how all the relationships with women end up, I have plenty of good friends whom Ive gotten from "just being friends" just remember they have to act like a friend if they want to be your friend. This goes for men and women.

NDarko64:
I think a lot of the time, when men are put in the "friendzone" it's because they feel like they were entitled to the object of their affections, but when that object - and they are objectified - does not return the feeling, they feel cheated and vindictive and women are often made to feel bad for "friendzoning" guys because the guy has the right to fuck or to love them if he's gone through a checklist first. like, if he's nice to you or bought you something, then he has the right to have you in whatever he wants. Because he bought it.

I've liked guys who didn't like me back and after asking them out, they said they'd rather be friends. To which I just got over and moved on, because it's more responsible, mature and healthy than pining over one person and feeling cheated.

Also, I can't help but feel that if a woman get s friendzoned or whatever it's very much made to be her "fault", as if anyone could be at fault in this scenario, for not being pretty enough or for being too sexual or too slow.

Men who believe in the frienzone are just emotionally stunted entitled little douchebags. Women aren't bought up to believe they have a sense of entitlement - hence the lack of female friendzoned persons.

You have a very negative view of men. Let me just put it out there: no we don't see you as objects, now sure some of us do, but most don't. Just like i suppose most women don't see men as objects. And heck real life facts contradict the notion women are seen as objects. If we saw women as inferior to us than surely you should be the ones put on the front line, what would we lose anyway? Just objects.

Now i know that you didn't make any claims about "men" but the idea that the friendzone is a result of objectification is just plainly silly and doesn't paint a good picture of men. Maybe the complaining about the friendzone actually stems from the fact we care more ? You know, it's easier to get over someone you didn't want that much to begin with. This would result in friendzoning causing less pain and frustration. (see i can do that too)

And since usually people who complain about the friendzone don't seem to be your typically macho jocks i'd say it's safe to assume that the whole meme stems from caring and not douchebaggery. Unless of course caring is being a douchebag and we've been lied to all this time when people told us we should be caring and loving and not smug, macho gigolos who pride themselves of having more sex than bonobos.

Captcha: "Q: which one does not belong A: emo kid." I think captcha is trying to tell me something.

I'm going to put this on top so the people I quote don't think I'm necessarily talking about them.

For the most part, those in this thread who defended against the friend zone usually give women a lot more understanding than they do men. They call the term friendzone as whining, or not being able to get over it, or the like. They suggest if men don't want to be in the friend zone, that they shouldn't have tried to pretend to be friends as a way to get into the woman's pants.

I don't know about anyone else, but my attraction works like this; I see a woman I'm physically attracted to... I don't do anything. Why? Because I don't know anything about their personality. While I do like a physically attractive woman, I don't know anything about her to actually make a connection. So I really can't. And even if I start talking to her, I can't sequester every woman I find physically attractive saying "Hey, I don't know yet, but I might be able to develop romantic feelings for you. so I'm going to talk and learn about you. Maybe I won't see anything and we'll be friends. Best of luck to you".

And for the record, I have more female friends than male friends. And since both parties aren't attracted to each other, we have no boundries. I've often was told that a man got the 'I can only see you as a friend' to be nice and not say the more true 'You do nothing for my vagina'.

And the friendzone term has merit because a lot of women do not have the courage to out right say their feelings. I believe it will be the case that every woman on this thread does, but for my travels it is not the case. A lot of women in my travels allude. They say things as 'friends' because they don't want to be seen as a bad person rejecting a guy based on her wants. So she says a blanket yet direct term that prevents anything else from going on.

If a woman said to me "Obsidian, I'm just not attracted to you" I know I wasn't friendzoned. I just wasn't what she wanted. But knowing what I know from my decades of female friendship and a good majority using allusions to actually prevent feelings from getting hurt... yeah, Friendzone is a thing. For both male cowardice for some men just not wanting to admit the girl just didn't like him, and for female cowardice for some women not wanting to appear bad or deal with someone else's feelings so she just throws out a term instead of saying how she truly feels.

Phasmal:
Otherwise known as being rejected.
I just don't think it warrants a special term, especially one that is so often misused.
But I can agree to disagree on this.

I'm sorry, I know you're probably quoted a lot, but I'd like to get this clear. Are you saying that you never even heard of a woman or a man blanketly saying 'friend' when s/he wanted to let someone down, but didn't want to get into all the drama of hurt feelings or feeling bad that s/he rejected a guy or girl? I think that's what most people take the term 'friendzone' to be, and that's the anger most people had.

If a man or woman had the courage to ask someone out directly, what most expect or at least desire is for the recipient of said feelings to at least treat them like they matter. Direct and honest, even if it's messy. I rather be hurt in the short run and know the score instead of being presented with Play 54b of the handbook.

Lilani:
I still can't think of a situation in which asking the right questions and taking the right cues can't solve the problem. If you're constantly getting brushed off, then that's a pretty clear sign of a "no." That isn't just in relationships, that's a pretty standard thing when socializing with people. And if you don't get an answer that's clear enough, ask her again, right there. Say you don't understand. Say you want to make it clear. If you want her to give you a straight answer, then you might have to work at it and make sure she knows it's safe to give you the harsher answer. Because yes, girls and guys are socialized differently, and girls like to avoid giving out total rejection if they see it's not necessary, or if they feel the straight answer will cause unnecessary social repercussions (drawing attention to the situation and rejection, causing you pain around your peers, having to reject you in words that may not adequately express what they mean because they need to say it so directly, etc).

I believe you're right. But I also believe you're wrong. As the issue is that because you're mature, doesn't mean you can believe everyone shares your enlightened views. There have been plenty of situations when I was but a lad that women did not want to engage in any feelings that they didn't share. I don't have time to go into horror stories, and frankly I rather not relive them. But saying the mature and direct approach will only work if the other party is mature and direct as well.

And when it comes to feelings, that's almost never the general case. For both Men and Women. But the society is still slated that the man is normally the aggressor. The last few dates I had, I always got "I was WAITING for you to ask me out". If she wanted to date so badly, why didn't she ask me out? Which I asked. The response (from these generally mature women) was almost always the same;

"I couldn't do that! What if you said no?! I'd be crushed."

One girl said "Because I wanted to make you work for it", though. I don't know why, but I liked that a bit.

ObsidianJones:

Phasmal:
Otherwise known as being rejected.
I just don't think it warrants a special term, especially one that is so often misused.
But I can agree to disagree on this.

I'm sorry, I know you're probably quoted a lot, but I'd like to get this clear. Are you saying that you never even heard of a woman or a man blanketly saying 'friend' when s/he wanted to let someone down, but didn't want to get into all the drama of hurt feelings or feeling bad that s/he rejected a guy or girl? I think that's what most people take the term 'friendzone' to be, and that's the anger most people had.

If a man or woman had the courage to ask someone out directly, what most expect or at least desire is for the recipient of said feelings to at least treat them like they matter. Direct and honest, even if it's messy. I rather be hurt in the short run and know the score instead of being presented with Play 54b of the handbook.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't think being rejected by someone you consider a friend needs a term which so often places the blame on the rejecter for the crime of not being attracted to the rejectee.

Yeah, a lot of people disagree with me on this, but I'm okay with it.

Phasmal:

ObsidianJones:

Phasmal:
Otherwise known as being rejected.
I just don't think it warrants a special term, especially one that is so often misused.
But I can agree to disagree on this.

I'm sorry, I know you're probably quoted a lot, but I'd like to get this clear. Are you saying that you never even heard of a woman or a man blanketly saying 'friend' when s/he wanted to let someone down, but didn't want to get into all the drama of hurt feelings or feeling bad that s/he rejected a guy or girl? I think that's what most people take the term 'friendzone' to be, and that's the anger most people had.

If a man or woman had the courage to ask someone out directly, what most expect or at least desire is for the recipient of said feelings to at least treat them like they matter. Direct and honest, even if it's messy. I rather be hurt in the short run and know the score instead of being presented with Play 54b of the handbook.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't think being rejected by someone you consider a friend needs a term which so often places the blame on the rejecter for the crime of not being attracted to the rejectee.

Yeah, a lot of people disagree with me on this, but I'm okay with it.

Oh, I perfectly agree with you on this when it happens as you state it. I said so in my post. In fact, I'm glad if a woman cared enough about me and was truthful. It is up to me to make the next move, and I might not make the best one due to possible pain, but at least I know I have accurate information.

The only thing I have issue with is that some times, people are actually using the term friendzone in the manner I expressed in the quoted section. Sometimes, those who are put in the position of having to reject others don't do it in the best of ways. I know I haven't always. But I never used 'I can only see you as a friend' because I know the ambiguity that is now attached to the term 'friend' due to people taking that as the easy way out.

Alright guys and gals (and everything inbetween, got'sta be more acceptin' in these enlightened times), gather round the campfire and let Crazy Uncle Jem-Jem tell y'all a story. Some of you may have heard it, dun care, siddown.

*clears throat*

So I was once friend's with a bloke, y'know that one kid in high school who seems terribly introverted yet simultaniously crazy? Bleached white skin and you could never tell if they were angry or not.

I did, found out later he had an alphabet soup of mental issues.

So anyways, we were friends all through High School, hung out after High School in which I'd frequent his house every week. I became friends with his whole family and basically gotten accepted as ne of them. I became friends with his sister and with all due respect I'd intended for it to stay that way. Going out with a bro's sister is generally bad (some circumstances acquitted).

But after a year or so I felt...different towards her. She seemed prettier, more fun to be around, and sometimes I just wanted to hug her. I tried to keep it inside as I did value her friendship more than a relationship...in the end, they found out, I apologised to her (for whatever reason) she had Vietnam-style flashbacks of abuse as a child an blamed me for being abused.

Needless to say, I'm not friends with them anymore.

Point is...sometimes a guy can't help but fall for a female friend, and when they find that their feelings can't be reciprocated some guys just have to get the hell outta dodge. I can't be friends with any of my exes despite them wanting to be...too painful for me.

If you accept the idea of a "friend zone" then it must be as applicable to women as it is to men.

I cant say I ever thought of it as being in "the friend zone" but I was once shot down by a good friend I asked out. She told me that she felt it would be weird for her because we had been friends for so long and that she had become "comfortable" with how things were between us. I still wonder if that was how she really felt or whether she was trying to let me down gently.

A large amount of people here are getting the term mixed up.

The friendzone is simply unrequited love directed at a friend.

It doesn't matter if men use the term more or not, it still happens within both sexes. So yes, women can be friendzoned, because the friendzone is simply this: Friend A likes Friend B. Friend B doesn't like Friend A the same way, resorting to only staying in a friend like relationship.

There simple as that. Whatever Friend A or B have done to or for each other before the big reveal is irrelevant, so is whatever happens afterwards. It doesn't matter if Friend A gets upset, depressed, gets over their feeling etc. because not matter what happens next, in that point of time, they were in the friendzone, which is again unrequited love directed towards a friend.

Allow me to go a little further:

- Saying that the people who use this term only wanted to sleep with the person of their affection is a gross and highly insulting generalization. Some of you above have made this claim. It makes me sad to know that the love I felt towards some of female friends in the past will always be looked upon as me just wanting to have sex with them.

- Stating that it only happens to men is stupid and slightly sexist. Not only have I spoken to women who have used the term, they too have expressed extreme displeasure at it being stated as something that only occurs to "stunted entitled little douchebags".

- Saying that a person puts themselves in the friendzone is false, because the friendzone is simply unrequited love. You CANNOT help who you fall in love with and you CANNOT just shut that love off the second the other party says 'no' to get yourself "out of the friendzone". Emotions don't work that way. The only way you actually get in this zone is by liking someone who doesn't like you. That is the only fault of Person A. But then again, you can't be faulted for who you become attracted to.

- Claiming that the term is only used by 'nice guys' (guys who actually aren't nice) is also insulting to those who genuinely want to be in a healthy commitment with the person they fancy.

In closing, STOP JUDGING EVERYONE WHO USES THE TERM!

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