Female Friendzone?

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sarkeizen:

There is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that when people (men and women) encounter something that they don't know how to evaluate we draw on various, and somewhat irrational methods of assigning a value. Once this evaluation is set, subsequent evaluations will be made *relative* to the initial one. i.e. if the first price you see for a product is $1000 and the second is $200. You will consider the second price to be a good deal - even if it is the nominal price for the product.

Point being is that the belief that establishing yourself as a candidate for a romantic relationship to a particular person early on might have a significantly positive effect on successfully having a relationship with that person isn't unreasonable.

You're reaching a lot there. It does not in the least bit follow from that example that people will not change their opinions over time. You have spoken of a case where you compare one item to a completely different one, one after another. You're making a huge leap unsupported by the example.

Vegosiux:

Seems to me you're assuming there's nothing to experience outside the world you chose to experience.

And of course you'll be getting the vibe that everyone who chose a different path than you is covering for their own insecurities, I mean, that was obvious from the first post you made in the thread.

Indeed that might be true. I choose not to live in a world where people would rather retreat from the world rather then experience it. That is certainly something I am willing to accept except that I don't fault people for having insecurities: I fault them for not doing something about it. Big difference.

Stasisesque:

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

As for relationships, I don't know, most of my friends are married and it does bring out the desperation in some of my single friends. Biological clock and all that, there is a deadline on marriage and children for some people. True relationships lose their social status symbolism but I cannot agree that people care less as they get older, they care for different reasons.

People and their deadlines... I won't get off on a rant here about the marriage industry and baby veneration that we have going here (in the US). I remember more a few years ago I went to a bachelorette party for a friend of a friend and I asked the bride what she was looking forward to the most about being married... the wedding, she said. Not spending her life with her partner or starting a family or anything like that. Nope, I just want mah partay. Facepalm.

It's not that people don't care when they get older they just give people more slack because they know dating sucks and it's awkward since they have probably have had the same shared experience. I've asked out quite a few people and have been asked out by about the same number and you can tell if someone is being honest even if they are a bit nervous or a little awkward. My advice is to get over that initially hangup of rejection and don't pine away for someone that might not feel the same way or even be available.

If you are shy or have an anxiety disorder, their are ways to manage those conditions. Don't let it become an excuse.
If you just want to be single that is fine too as long as it is because you want to be single not because you fear rejection.

Dijkstra:

sarkeizen:

There is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that when people (men and women) encounter something that they don't know how to evaluate we draw on various, and somewhat irrational methods of assigning a value. Once this evaluation is set, subsequent evaluations will be made *relative* to the initial one. i.e. if the first price you see for a product is $1000 and the second is $200. You will consider the second price to be a good deal - even if it is the nominal price for the product.

Point being is that the belief that establishing yourself as a candidate for a romantic relationship to a particular person early on might have a significantly positive effect on successfully having a relationship with that person isn't unreasonable.

You're reaching a lot there. It does not in the least bit follow from that example that people will not change their opinions over time.

I think you might be misunderstanding my position. Bara_no_Hime appeared to assert that timing makes absolutely no difference (I assume she means in the short term). If she wouldn't date you now, she wouldn't have dated you a eight months before. I'm giving this as a counter-example to that point. People will evaluate irrationally when they have little to compare on. So someone a girl wouldn't date today could easily have been accepted when the requirements were less rational.

I'm not at all arguing that from that point forward people couldn't change their minds *but* I would argue that the decision has become more complicated at that point. Losing an established relationship (friend or lover) has a cost associated with it that wasn't there before. If people are acting rationally at this point it's entirely possible that either relationship will persist in it's prior state. As the cost of harming the friendship of someone who waited might be considered too high to merit the potential gains of a romantic relationship OR the negative characteristics of someone in a romantic relationship might be considered not high enough to merit terminating a relationship.

As an aside I love your username and I want to have it's babies. :)

sarkeizen:

Dijkstra:

sarkeizen:

There is a significant amount of evidence to suggest that when people (men and women) encounter something that they don't know how to evaluate we draw on various, and somewhat irrational methods of assigning a value. Once this evaluation is set, subsequent evaluations will be made *relative* to the initial one. i.e. if the first price you see for a product is $1000 and the second is $200. You will consider the second price to be a good deal - even if it is the nominal price for the product.

Point being is that the belief that establishing yourself as a candidate for a romantic relationship to a particular person early on might have a significantly positive effect on successfully having a relationship with that person isn't unreasonable.

You're reaching a lot there. It does not in the least bit follow from that example that people will not change their opinions over time.

I think you might be misunderstanding my position. Bara_no_Hime appeared to assert that timing makes absolutely no difference (I assume she means in the short term). If she wouldn't date you now, she wouldn't have dated you a eight months before. I'm giving this as a counter-example to that point. People will evaluate irrationally when they have little to compare on. So someone a girl wouldn't date today could easily have been accepted when the requirements were less rational.

I'm not at all arguing that from that point forward people couldn't change their minds *but* I would argue that the decision has become more complicated at that point. Losing an established relationship (friend or lover) has a cost associated with it that wasn't there before. If people are acting rationally at this point it's entirely possible that either relationship will persist in it's prior state. As the cost of harming the friendship of someone who waited might be considered too high to merit the potential gains of a romantic relationship OR the negative characteristics of someone in a romantic relationship might be considered not high enough to merit terminating a relationship.

Alright that does make sense, but I don't think it quite follows from that evidence so much as using some reasonable assumptions about people, like that they would know that it could hurt the friendship and that they presumably place a fair value on it, thus making it a more complicated decision. The example does show people's perspectives can be skewed with little information, but what follows when more information is gained isn't spoken of. But I am satisfied with the reasoning, people do have other concerns and the effect of time on their opinions isn't easy to gauge due to the complexity.

As an aside I love your username and I want to have it's babies. :)

Thanks! ^__^

I was doing homework when I made it and Dijkstra's algorithm was relevant so... XD

ellieallegro:

People and their deadlines... I won't get off on a rant here about the marriage industry and baby veneration that we have going here (in the US). I remember more a few years ago I went to a bachelorette party for a friend of a friend and I asked the bride what she was looking forward to the most about being married... the wedding, she said. Not spending her life with her partner or starting a family or anything like that. Nope, I just want mah partay. Facepalm.

Are you sure she meant it like that? I'd think she might just have been really excited for the most immediate and obvious event. Perhaps she didn't think of it as in depth as you did and just gave an answer based on her excitement.

ellieallegro:

Indeed that might be true. I choose not to live in a world where people would rather retreat from the world rather then experience it. That is certainly something I am willing to accept except that I don't fault people for having insecurities: I fault them for not doing something about it. Big difference.

There's nowhere to "retreat" in this world unless you go the monk-in-the-mountains route. But, again, I understand that some people don't seem to be able to comprehend the simple fact that there's no "universal" checklist that works the same for everyone and that there's nothing any person, ever, "must" do in order to make some contrived rite of passage into "maturity".

Of course I don't fault people for choosing what way they wish to experience the world in. I fault them for choosing to stay closed-minded about it. Big difference.

Dijkstra:
The example does show people's perspectives can be skewed with little information, but what follows when more information is gained isn't spoken of. But I am satisfied with the reasoning, people do have other concerns and the effect of time on their opinions isn't easy to gauge due to the complexity.

I will add that there are some experiments which have some counter-intuitive outcomes with regard to decision making. So Dan Ariely had his students write the last two digits of their SIN number beside a bunch of different products (Bottles of wine, trackball, some book, I can't remember the others). Then he asked them to indicate if they would pay that amount (e.g. $79 if their last two digits were 79) for each object.

If anchoring to initial values decays easily, in comparison to other things you would expect that there would be no correlation between those willing to pay $XX and their SIN digits being XX. In fact it appeared that this arbitrary anchor affected people's internal price sense by a factor of 2-3x (difference between top and bottom 20% IIRC).

It's not the only thing that matters clearly but it's not a bad explanation for at least one definition of being "friend zoned" which is when a perfectly viable candidate for a romantic relationship can't be viewed that way by the person they care about.

That said, I do consider people who moan about it hugely to come off as thinking they're entitled to something. People act irrationally, sometimes that puts us on the wrong side of the curve. Either decide that some set of actions will increase your chances - and do them or accept that the friendship isn't worth risking.

I was doing homework when I made it and Dijkstra's algorithm was relevant so... XD

Dijkstra is also famous for his quote about computer science being about computers in the same way that astronomy is about telescopes.

sarkeizen:

Dijkstra:
The example does show people's perspectives can be skewed with little information, but what follows when more information is gained isn't spoken of. But I am satisfied with the reasoning, people do have other concerns and the effect of time on their opinions isn't easy to gauge due to the complexity.

I will add that there are some experiments which have some counter-intuitive outcomes with regard to decision making. So Dan Ariely had his students write the last two digits of their SIN number beside a bunch of different products (Bottles of wine, trackball, some book, I can't remember the others). Then he asked them to indicate if they would pay that amount (e.g. $79 if their last two digits were 79) for each object.

If anchoring to initial values decays easily, in comparison to other things you would expect that there would be no correlation between those willing to pay $XX and their SIN digits being XX. In fact it appeared that this arbitrary anchor affected people's internal price sense by a factor of 2-3x (difference between top and bottom 20% IIRC).

That's quite interesting. Though I'd think it could have to do with them not having an idea of what the price ought to be prior to seeing those digits as the price of the item. I'll admit I have little idea of what price I ought to pay for something without already seeing it priced before or hearing from others. I think it'd be a bit much to link it to anchoring of initial values because of factors like that.

I was doing homework when I made it and Dijkstra's algorithm was relevant so... XD

Dijkstra is also famous for his quote about computer science being about computers in the same way that astronomy is about telescopes.

Yeah I do know he's famous for quite a bit more, it's simply the reason he came to mind at that time. And that is a great quote, people do seem to easily mistake what it's about when they're not familiar enough with the field.

ellieallegro:

Stasisesque:

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

As for relationships, I don't know, most of my friends are married and it does bring out the desperation in some of my single friends. Biological clock and all that, there is a deadline on marriage and children for some people. True relationships lose their social status symbolism but I cannot agree that people care less as they get older, they care for different reasons.

People and their deadlines... I won't get off on a rant here about the marriage industry and baby veneration that we have going here (in the US). I remember more a few years ago I went to a bachelorette party for a friend of a friend and I asked the bride what she was looking forward to the most about being married... the wedding, she said. Not spending her life with her partner or starting a family or anything like that. Nope, I just want mah partay. Facepalm.

It's not that people don't care when they get older they just give people more slack because they know dating sucks and it's awkward since they have probably have had the same shared experience. I've asked out quite a few people and have been asked out by about the same number and you can tell if someone is being honest even if they are a bit nervous or a little awkward. My advice is to get over that initially hangup of rejection and don't pine away for someone that might not feel the same way or even be available.

If you are shy or have an anxiety disorder, their are ways to manage those conditions. Don't let it become an excuse.
If you just want to be single that is fine too as long as it is because you want to be single not because you fear rejection.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused about what you're suggesting here.

I was explaining to someone that shyness can be overcome with age, and often is. I wasn't, as I said in the post you quoted, actually relating it to dating at all, just shyness in general. I used my anxiety disorder as an example of someone who has a genuine medical condition and yet can still portray an air of confidence in public and my private life. Not once have I used it as an excuse for anything, in fact I did point out it can be learned to be controlled (and often without any medication). Also never have I claimed to be afraid of rejection, I've never even said I'm single (I am not, and have had a pretty active dating life so far, though I hope it's over now as I have found the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with).

I'm not sure if you were addressing me directly, but it certainly looks like it and I'm rather shocked at your ability to assume so very many things I haven't said.

And again, as I have now said twice: among my peers (27 year olds plus) relationships are still fairly important. More important for those who are wanting to settle down and start families, less so among those who aren't looking for that sort of relationship. They are no longer seen as a status symbol but more a necessity, and I don't see anything wrong with that opinion. I don't want a family, but many of my friends do and there is a deadline on that, whether you accept it as a valid reason to start a relationship or not, the menopause kicks in eventually and some start planning early.

For me the term "Friendzone" just means pretty much two people are friends, one asks the other out, said friend say's they aren't interested in the other person like that and that's frakking it.

I wish I was in the "Friendzone", would mean I have friends and the like. D:

For me since Highschool I've been a very lonely person for the most part. Sure I have people to talk to at work but for the most part I just stay in my room for the rest of the time. I'll be honest, I am painfully shy and my confidence just isn't there, there are some days I can't even stand to look at myself in the mirror. For me I've mostly lost any hope so I'm not sure where to begin.

I'll admit this sounds quite a bit like "poor me!" but I figured I should be truthful here. Well that and I'm shit at reading signs from people and usally always think of ways to try and squirm out of talking to a girl, usally horrible fear and the like.

dalek sec:
I am painfully shy and my confidence just isn't there, there are some days I can't even stand to look at myself in the mirror.

Out of curiosity (and apologies for the derail) what's the big problem?

I mean I get that there are less social pressures on the internet but you don't seem to have a problem talking here.

The easiest way to talk to people is to be observant and ask them about the stuff they appear to like. Even if you can't decode social mores you can always come up with rules to compensate. For example, if you're doing all of the talking(that is all they are doing is signaling they understand "oh", "uh huh", "I see") for say two or three minutes you can make an excuse to, politely end the conversation. If someone is being polite then the conversation ends. If they try and perpetuate it then you're probably not talking too much.

Dijkstra:

Are you sure she meant it like that? I'd think she might just have been really excited for the most immediate and obvious event. Perhaps she didn't think of it as in depth as you did and just gave an answer based on her excitement.

Oh she meant it like that. And if I wasn't sure at the time... I am now since her marriage lasted barely a year. But I digress.

Vegosiux:

There's nowhere to "retreat" in this world unless you go the monk-in-the-mountains route. But, again, I understand that some people don't seem to be able to comprehend the simple fact that there's no "universal" checklist that works the same for everyone and that there's nothing any person, ever, "must" do in order to make some contrived rite of passage into "maturity".

Of course I don't fault people for choosing what way they wish to experience the world in. I fault them for choosing to stay closed-minded about it. Big difference.

No man, must, must. Sure, sure. Maybe we will just agree to disagree on this point because I do think their are key experiences and education (formal or otherwise) that one must have in order to fully understand the world and say with certainty that if one died tomorrow, one wouldn't have any regrets about not having lived a full life. Call it maturity, call it a "universal" checklist if you will. Why bother getting up in the morning otherwise if one didn't want to have adventures and check things off a bucket list. Again, as I said, you are obviously welcome to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

Stasisesque:

I was talking about shyness outside of dating, yes it applies to the dating world but I was taking it as a separate thing and addressing it that way.

I was as well. Shyness is shyness: In daily life or in respect to dating.

Stasisesque:

I'm not sure if you were addressing me directly, but it certainly looks like it and I'm rather shocked at your ability to assume so very many things I haven't said.

Let's back up a bit. I wasn't speaking directly to you. I was only commenting and building upon what you said. Apologies if you assumed that I was being insensitive towards what is a horrible and valid medical condition. I have a few friends with anxiety disorder and they feel even stronger about it than I do about it not being an excuse to go out. If they can manage their fear of rejection then I see no reason that other people shouldn't as well. Hope that clears it up for you.

Not since I was a fuck ton younger, but before I was 16 I was in a permanent friend zone with pretty much anyone I took an interest in. Probably because I was ugly. No two ways about it xD

ellieallegro:
I do think their are key experiences and education (formal or otherwise) that one must have in order to fully understand the world and say with certainty that if one died tomorrow, one wouldn't have any regrets about not having lived a full life.

This statement seems a little strange to me. i) What does "fully understand the world" mean? Does anyone understand the world fully? If this is hyperbole then what percentage of the world need be understood? ii) How can one be certain that they wouldn't be dying with regrets? (sorry for rearranging your words a bit but I don't know if the dead can have regrets).

Put a ton of girls in the friendzone.

Feels GRRRRRRREAT!

My best friend got "Friendzoned" by someone she really admired for 3 months. However she never called it friendzoning she called it rejection, and she never threw a bitch fit about it on the internet. Was she hurt? Of course. Was she depressed? Definitely. Did she hate him for it? No.
In fact she went to him later and told him that at least they can just be friends. Because she values their relationship together, and even said good will to his new girlfriend.
The people who complain about friendzoning on the internet are the guys who feel entitled to win a woman's affection after being nice to them. When that doesn't work, they get angry, and suddenly the "Nice Guy" facade disappears.
I'm not saying getting rejected by the one you love hurts. It does. There are countless books, comics, and tv shows that revolve around that.
However it's how you act that defines you as a person.

I'll just edit your post so it appears as if somebody with empathy wrote it.

Dragonbums:
The people who complain about friendzoning on the internet are the guys who think it will help win a woman's affection by being nice to them. When that doesn't work, they get confused and feel rejected, and suddenly the they get depressed and act out.

Dragonbums:
However it's how you act that defines you as a person.

Including how you act on online forums.

Also, if you feel the need to externalise but don't want to be a dick, isn't ranting anonymously on the internet one of the more responsible things you can do?

Let's have a bit more sympathy for these socially clueless nerds shall we?

Smeatza:
I'll just edit your post so it appears as if somebody with empathy wrote it.

Dragonbums:
The people who complain about friendzoning on the internet are the guys who think it will help win a woman's affection by being nice to them. When that doesn't work, they get confused and feel rejected, and suddenly the they get depressed and act out.

Dragonbums:
However it's how you act that defines you as a person.

Including how you act on online forums.

Also, if you feel the need to externalise but don't want to be a dick, isn't ranting anonymously on the internet one of the more responsible things you can do?

Let's have a bit more sympathy for these socially clueless nerds shall we?

I have empathy. Like I said getting rejected does hurt, and it can be emotionally taxing.
I don't have empathy for those who act like assholes about it on the internet under the facade of "Nice Guy". I've seen enough posts by pages on Facebook relating to "friendzoning" and see enough of the comments relating to those posts to know they are complete asses to begin with.
Most of the comments usually are guys who call woman all sorts of slurs for rejecting them (or those who have rejected men int he past), or pick up artists that have mastered the "Nice Guy" tactic, and act like they are the all knowing authority on what woman want and don't want like we are some sort of machinery to figure out with slight difference in variations, and not a human being with complex tastes, and dynamics.

Dragonbums:
I have empathy. Like I said getting rejected does hurt, and it can be emotionally taxing.

So you just don't act on your empathy?

Dragonbums:
I don't have empathy for those who act like assholes about it on the internet under the facade of "Nice Guy". I've seen enough posts by pages on Facebook relating to "friendzoning" and see enough of the comments relating to those posts to know they are complete asses to begin with.

Does getting a little bit self-centered qualify somebody as an "asshole."
You are generalising greatly.

Dragonbums:
Most of the comments usually are guys who call woman all sorts of slurs for rejecting them (or those who have rejected men int he past),

I've never encountered this.

Dragonbums:
or pick up artists that have mastered the "Nice Guy" tactic, and act like they are the all knowing authority on what woman want and don't want like we are some sort of machinery to figure out with slight difference in variations, and not a human being with complex tastes, and dynamics.

Pick up artists don't respond emotively to a particular person not being attracted to them.

Smeatza:

Dragonbums:
I have empathy. Like I said getting rejected does hurt, and it can be emotionally taxing.

So you just don't act on your empathy?

Dragonbums:
I don't have empathy for those who act like assholes about it on the internet under the facade of "Nice Guy". I've seen enough posts by pages on Facebook relating to "friendzoning" and see enough of the comments relating to those posts to know they are complete asses to begin with.

Does getting a little bit self-centered qualify somebody as an "asshole."
You are generalising greatly.

Dragonbums:
Most of the comments usually are guys who call woman all sorts of slurs for rejecting them (or those who have rejected men int he past),

I've never encountered this.

Dragonbums:
or pick up artists that have mastered the "Nice Guy" tactic, and act like they are the all knowing authority on what woman want and don't want like we are some sort of machinery to figure out with slight difference in variations, and not a human being with complex tastes, and dynamics.

Pick up artists don't respond emotively to a particular person not being attracted to them.

> First off, you claimed that I have no empathy. You can choose to act like a child about your emotions and spew garbage on the interenet, or you can choose to act like a mature adult. If you really loved someone I don't think spewing insults and slurs at the target of your attraction for rejecting you as a love interest is a mature way to handle anything especially not love. All it does is make you bitter inside. Don't try to twist this conversation into something I hadn't implied. You started this.

> Acting like a self centered asshole for what exactly? Not caring about people hurling rude insults because they got rejected? I'm not generalizing anything. I am talking about the conversations I have seen happening on Facebook posts relating to "friendzoning" Nice of you to conventionally ignore that part and claim that I'm "generalizing" things.

> Just because YOU never encountered this, doesn't mean others haven't. Once again I have stated I saw this happening on Facebook pages relating to "friendzones". Once again you conveniently ignore point that to attack me as some self centered asshole.

> Where in that entire post did I state that Pick Up Artists react emotionally? Where?
I said that PUA's often they go into comment threads about friendzoning and speak with authority about what a woman does and doesn't want because they managed to hook up with so many. Not once did I ever imply they had emotion while saying that stuff. In fact, that wasn't even stated. At all.

Dragonbums:

> First off, you claimed that I have no empathy. You can choose to act like a child about your emotions and spew garbage on the interenet, or you can choose to act like a mature adult. If you really loved someone I don't think spewing insults and slurs at the target of your attraction for rejecting you as a love interest is a mature way to handle anything especially not love. All it does is make you bitter inside. Don't try to twist this conversation into something I hadn't implied. You started this.

"Love" isn't "having the hots" for someone, or even "seeing someone as a love interest". "Love" is getting up at 3AM to help them out even if you were furious at them when you went to bed, the willingness to stick by them even when you want to strangle the living daylights out of them.

So this "if you truly loved them..." kind of falls flat because the rejection usually happens way before you can even get to that point.

Just thought I'd ring in with this.

Vegosiux:

Dragonbums:

> First off, you claimed that I have no empathy. You can choose to act like a child about your emotions and spew garbage on the interenet, or you can choose to act like a mature adult. If you really loved someone I don't think spewing insults and slurs at the target of your attraction for rejecting you as a love interest is a mature way to handle anything especially not love. All it does is make you bitter inside. Don't try to twist this conversation into something I hadn't implied. You started this.

"Love" isn't "having the hots" for someone, or even "seeing someone as a love interest". "Love" is getting up at 3AM to help them out even if you were furious at them when you went to bed, the willingness to stick by them even when you want to strangle the living daylights out of them.

So this "if you truly loved them..." kind of falls flat because the rejection usually happens way before you can even get to that point.

Just thought I'd ring in with this.

That's a very true point.

However we ourselves don't know what kind of love the people I'm referring to have. I know there are a damn good amount of people who express love like this on a daily basis.
The same can be said about people with a strong platonic love for another.

I'm not really here to discuss the dynamics of love though.

I'm just really tired of seeing people handle rejection (or friendzoning as they like to call it) or the topic in general at such immense levels of childishness that I really don't feel any sympathy for them.

Perhaps Facebook isn't the best example of people in the rejection circle. Yet posting that kind of stuff on forums is one thing. At least you have a fake username to hide your true identity.
On Facebook however your full name is up on full display and more than likely your selfie as well.

The fact that even then your willing to say those things when your identity is exposed to everyone on that page to me shows one's true colors.

I've never understood why people try to make the "friend zone" out as this big scary thing that's hard to explain, oh, or maybe it doesn't exist, maybe it's just something guys make up because girls don't wanna have sex with them, and blah blah blah.

The Friend Zone is a VERY simple concept. Now since this can happen to either gender, I'm going to avoid using gender specific pronouns here

Person A meets Person B (circumstances of this are irrelevant, maybe they met because Person A did just think they were hot, or liked their Pokemon t-shirt, or Person B is a friend of a friend, it doesn't matter)

Person A and Person B hang out, chat, find out they have a lot in common, enjoy each others company, etc. etc. until one day Person A starts to develop romantic feelings for Person B and wants to try and become something more.

Person A asks Person B out. Person B says No and would rather just keep what they already have.

That's the friend zone...that's all that it is. It's when you develop feelings for a friend, ask them out, and they say they just want to stay friends. I honestly have no idea how anyone can try to claim that's just something that people make up. It's a fairly common occurrence.

I admit that I get kind of annoyed when I hear people going "Stop complaining about being friend zoned just because they don't want to have sex with you." because lemme ask you something. Have you ever asked someone out on a date only for them to say No and then you say to yourself "Well that's alright. I just wanted them for sex anyways."

...You might have, I don't know you very well. But still, I imagine that's a pretty rare scenario.

I have been on all four possible sides of this odd 4 sided coin

I ask female friend out, we end up staying friends
I ask female friend out, we don't end up staying friends
Female friend asks me out, we end up staying friends
Female friend asks me out, we don't end up staying friends

There really is no good guy or bad guy in these scenarios. Every time I see a friend zone debate it just becomes an issue of whose right. There is no answer to that. Nobody is right in these scenarios, just varying levels of wrong.

For example, lets look at number 2 in that scenario list. Some of you are probably thinking "Why get all butthurt and stop being someones friend just because they don't want to ride your bologna pony?" well, usually one of two things happens here.

1. I'm not the one that leaves. The girl gets a real boyfriend and suddenly stops talking to me entirely, I don't hear from her again until they break up. By that point, I've already realized this person wasn't a very good friend to me in the first place and

2. It's because believe it or not, it can be kinda emotionally stressful to be around someone you have strong feelings for who doesn't reciprocate them, and if they were a true friend, they would be able to empathize with the pain you're feeling and understand why you have to walk away instead of just going "Oh yeah, my ex-friend is all mad 'cause I won't fuck 'em...SO FUCK 'EM!" You have to realize that if someone is at the point where they can't be friends with you anymore because of this, they probably cared about you a lot, and this wasn't an easy decision for them.

And yes, I also sympathize with the person that gets left behind. They may have just lost a good friend out of this, despite the fact that they did nothing wrong. They just didn't see this person as a potential romantic partner, which isn't something anyone should have to apologize for. And that sucks too. So it can be a little selfish to expect someone to suffer through some emotional distress just so you don't lose your buddy, but it's also kinda selfish of the person leaving to turn to this friend and basically go "Sorry, I can't hang out with you anymore." with any luck the two can eventually talk it over, and maybe Person A will get past those feelings and they can be friends again. It happens. I've seen it happen. I've done it.

Now obviously a lot of this post is just generalizing and speaking from my own personal experiences. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't guys out there who basically saw a hot chick, wanted to bang her, started hanging out with her, asked her out, and when she said no dropped them like they just pulled a hot pan out of the oven sans mitt, Hell I'm not even going to pretend that I'VE never done that (usually when I do though it really was because I didn't have much in common with the girl)

Alright, I'm out

image

I've turned down sex with 3 attractive girls who offered it to me, one who happened to just be in her bra and skirt at the time (honest to god true, but long, story), because I'm gay. It just led to these incredibly awkward moments. I'm pretty sure one girl was convinced I was lying.

So I guess that's kinda like friend zoning them?

I have seen a situation where a male friend was head over heels for a women who knew it and strung him along emotionally to get what she wanted.

I friend zoned a guy once, I had no clue he liked me, he was being very subtle about it. When I found out I gave him the "you are like a brother" and he didn't talk to me for months. He was able to put that behind him though because I was upfront with him and we are still good friends years later.

I was friend zoned recently and I was up front and honest, sometimes it is the other persons lack of honesty with themselves that can cause problems, or maybe an attempt to let someone down so softly and try to avoid awkwardness that causes more awkwardness and hurt feelings with mixed messages.

I was friends with a guy, had no intention of being anything more when one day I realized I kinda did. I did nothing about it though as I was happy with being friends and I just took his flirting back as innocent. Friends started to comment on him liking me and how cute of a couple we were so I was upfront and honest with him as I often felt there was something between us. His reply was I was going through things in my life such as ending a 10 yr relationship so he wanted to be my friend "for the time being" in a tone that seemed to imply something. I asked him what does that mean? I don't like ambiguous I was up front with you. He just smiled and said "for the time being" So I got over the issues I was dealing with and we continued to be friends for many months. One night we got tipsy together and I said I wish I knew where I stood with him, he seemed genuinely confused. Said we were "good" friends. I point blank asked him if he liked me. He stuttered and said no, he didn't seem to remember our previous conversation, went on for awhile about how it is hard for him to fall in love. He said he wanted to continue the friendship. Many months later(I've known him a year at this point) I was still attempting to be his friend, he asked me out drinking and was all flirty. Was excited I was applying for a better job, said I should take him out and buy him drinks once I got it, we joked about me being a sugar mama. I finally went for broke, I was sick of his mixed messages and I kissed him. I tried a few times to talk to him about it after but we never did, and I realized he just wanted to ignore it had ever happened and continue being friends. I don't feel it is worth discussing at this point, every conversion has ended up with him being ambiguously answering my questions and me being more emotionally confused than when we started the conversation.

I do not know what is up with him but I had to make the decision to walk away. I know he has actively avoided relationships for almost years and he has never told me why, but it isn't worth trying to figure out his motivations at this point. Maybe in a few months I will feel differently and can put it behind me and we can go back to being friends. But at the same time why would I want to continue to be friends with someone who doesn't seem able to be honest with me? If he had just said "I am not interested in you" as other males have done to me before him, we could continue to be friends as I never would have harbored/let grow these feelings for him.

so i am a very small breasted female i am very attractive got a nice butt.. so i couldn't help but notice that the past 6 potential relationships had been friend zoned.. it has gotten to the point that when something happens that i know for a fact that something is gonna lead up to that i no longer panic.. and we subsequently become friends.. so i tested a theory of mind out and sure enough there it went again. i can not help how my body has developed why is it that my aa's should stop a guy from wanting me? i am not even upset i am at this point blowing it off.. and to hear that bull crap of "he doesn't deserve you" hummm.. i didn't know that a woman's breasts really was all that big of a deal.. and it is really too bad i am a great person but i am not given the chance because of my small boobs... oh well

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