Show me more proof. (Boston bombings)

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Is it just me or am I missing something. I'm not condoning terrorist activity, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence that the two accused for the Boston bombings actually did it. All I' ve really seen is that the media have automatically put it put there that those two boys did it and that's all the evidence the public need. The word of the media and the government. The photographs of the alleged bombers walking with backpacks is about as little circumstantial evidence possible considering hundreds were seen to be walking the street with bags similar including members of the FBI. I don't know, I just think a little more evidence is needed before the whole world goes into uproar against two boys who may or may not have anything to do with these events

Edit: I should probably mention that yes I understand that these guys shot a cop and throw bombs out a window while trying to outrun cops. And that there is supposedly a confession. I'm not saying none of that never happened, all I'm saying is look at the track record of the government and their coverups. How many times in American history has their been some sort of disaster where one or two nutcases where to blame, confessions were given, but in reality 10 or 20 years later the truth starts to come out and maybe the government fucked up and it was actually the work of themselves. Also why is it so bad that I'm asking these questions, I realise I have opened a can of worms, and will probably never get the answers I have asked for but I do believe that we as the public should be given more to go on and to believe then just the work of some eyewitness and the media. Thats all. The amount of lies we have been told before is outrageous, yet the majority suck it all up to be the truth without any thought and zero questioning. Jesus just look at Iraq, ' oh we are all going to die they have so many weapons of mass destruction," when what in reality thee was none. And maybe I should be classified as a nutcase because I'd rather question the crap we are told before actually making a judgment.

We have a confession, that's what.

Your mistake was using the media as a source of reliable information.

The FBI isn't at liberty to tell faux news about it's goings on.

Its to make the public calm the fuck down, in about four years time they'll release a statement declaring that those two boys were wrongly prosecuted all along, however we'll have solved the actual case a year prior to that discovery and just not told anyone out-loud.

For one the CCTV caught them with the rucksacks walking over to the area the bombs were let off, and walking away without their rucksacks. The hundreds of other people with bags and rucksacks didn't do that.

Secondly when they were accosted didn't they shoot a policeman and drive off in a car lobbing bombs out the window?
I'd say those were the droids you were looking for.

Well...

In addition to getting caught on camera entering the area with bags and leaving it without said bags, they shot a police officer, carjacked someone (told them that they were the bombers), and got into a high speed pursuit while throwing bombs at the pursuing police.

I think that's proof enough.

I suppose you didn't look all that hard, huh?

Berithil:
Well...

In addition to getting caught on camera entering the area with bags and leaving it without said bags, they shot a police officer, carjacked someone (told them that they were the bombers), and got into a high speed pursuit while throwing bombs at the pursuing police.

I think that's proof enough.

Yeah... and even if they didn't do the actual bombings the one survivor has screwed up so much he'll be in for a long time.

I think the evidence is pretty conclusive at this point. Really the only part that remains unclear is whether or not the two brothers acted without any other help. You're right not to believe the media, as the media is always going to sensationalize and outright lie sometimes for ratings, but there are official statements made by the FBI and police that confirm these two guys as the bombers out there for all to see. The only thing I can't stand in all of this is the media organizations hounding the wife and parents. I mean, it's perfectly justified for the FBI to investigate them in case they ARE connected, but if they're not, then the media is exacerbating the already considerable pain and stress of innocent people. It's messed up.

Best case scenerio : they did it .

Worst case scenerio : they are scapegoats .

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

Probably the best evidence I have heard so far is a statement from the guy in the graphic image with both legs off who said he watched the surviving suspect set the bag down that exploded. There's no question these two are involved, but involved in what exactly? The images from the marathon are the only other proof of them being connected to this that we've seen, but we saw a lot of people with backpacks.

Also:

There are many conflicting reports that there were undetonated devices at the marathon, and that the bomb squad performed controlled detonations to destroy other devices, but that can't be or there would need to be more than two suspects.

We haven't seen anything linking them to the murder of the police officer.

The carjacking victim is an unidentified Chinese national who speaks little English. An interpreter was not used to get his initial statements.

The 2nd suspect was shot through the throat and can't speak. We haven't seen any of the actual written statements and everything we are told he is writing is paraphrased.

The explosive devices used in the shootout were nowhere near as effective or sophisticated as the ones used at the marathon.

I don't think there's any question these two were involved, but until I see more with my own eyes, I can't see it being feasible that they were the only ones. I don't believe anything that I am simply told, especially when it comes from the government, not a word, nothing, zero.

Remember how they told he us he took a shot at the cops while he was hiding in the boat so they lit him up? They even had a drawing of him peeking out from under the tarp, a barrel protruding out with an orange muzzle flash... an artist's drawing. I remember thinking, why a drawing and not a picture of the actual event from the FLIR cam? Oh that's right, because it never happened.

That's not the media, they are literally just mouthpieces from the state. They get everything through official channels and repeat the lies often enough so the truth is so muddied and lost it makes your brain hurt.

The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

You're right, hardly any concrete evidence.

There's a massive collection of data the FBI sifted through (more than the few pics/vids the media outlets had running, FBI took phones, camcorders, and CCTV from every camera in a huge radius) and isolated them dropping off their bags them going kaboom.
There's an eyewitness testimony from a dude so close to the blast he lost both his legs.
Then they shot a police officer and fled while throwing pipe bombs at pursing police cars.
They found another 20 or so home-made bombs in their apartment.
And of course the surviving bomber has confessed to everything.

Honestly, what the hell MORE do you want? A broadway musical?

Jack the Potato:
The only thing I can't stand in all of this is the media organizations hounding the wife and parents. I mean, it's perfectly justified for the FBI to investigate them in case they ARE connected, but if they're not, then the media is exacerbating the already considerable pain and stress of innocent people. It's messed up.

Appearing before media and press is not a government mandate. Quite a lot of times people just say "No Comment." If they have their faces plastered all over the news and giving interviews then you can't blame the media outlets. Would YOU be the editor who turned down covering a press release of the Boston Bombers' parents? Too slim pickings for ya?

xDarc:
We haven't seen anything linking them to the murder of the police officer.

The 2nd suspect was shot through the throat and can't speak. We haven't seen any of the actual written statements and everything we are told he is writing is paraphrased.

The explosive devices used in the shootout were nowhere near as effective or sophisticated as the ones used at the marathon.

I don't think there's any question these two were involved, but until I see more with my own eyes, I can't see it being feasible that they were the only ones. I don't believe anything that I am simply told, especially when it comes from the government, not a word, nothing, zero.

Remember how they told he us he took a shot at the cops while he was hiding in the boat so they lit him up? They even had a drawing of him peeking out from under the tarp, a barrel protruding out with an orange muzzle flash... an artist's drawing. I remember thinking, why a drawing and not a picture of the actual event from the FLIR cam? Oh that's right, because it never happened.

That's not the media, they are literally just mouthpieces from the state. They get everything through official channels and repeat the lies often enough so the truth is so muddied and lost it makes your brain hurt.

You know it's not a typical or normal thing for any government whatsoever to publicly release footage or anything written during an ongoing terrorism trial right? You think the local news outlet is going to go up and ask the swat team pretty please can they borrow the tape from evidence to show on tv? Or someone's there to photograph the bomber's written statements and shove it on twitter "interviewing boston bomber #yolo".

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

krazykidd:
Best case scenerio : they did it .

Worst case scenerio : they are scapegoats .

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

As an American I should probably be offended by that still doesn't make what you said any less true.
OP: yeah even if they were not responsible for the bombings they still hijacked a car, shot a cop, and threw explosive out into the street during a high speed pursuit so yeah. Now tell me if any of that seems like something two innocent civilians would do.

Deshin:

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

xDarc:
No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

A philosophical conundrum: If a crime is committed and no one took pics, did it make a sound?

Have you personally seen photos of every single homicide ever? Better go petition those prisons then because obviosly the majority of them must be innocent as no pics.

People can't make up their minds, one half is saying "the media's too involved, too much publicity, glorifying the killers" etc etc and the other half demanding more pics and videos because they all want to play armchair detective.

Here's the thing: No government, American or otherwise, owes its people disclosure of any criminal case's evidence at all. Evidence is disclosed to the JURY. AFTER the trial the evidence may be released into the public domain if it was a high profile case.

xDarc:

Deshin:

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

Really? Zero? I think that's going a bit far, as said a healthy cynical viewpoint is a good thing but you're straight off the paranoia spectrum. Pics will be present in the court of law where the defendant will be tried for the murder of 4 people as well as a slew of terrorist and other heavy crimes, if you're picked for the jury you'll have a chance to judge those "pics", otherwise most people including you and me will just get what ever is made public.

Deshin:

People can't make up their minds, one half is saying "the media's too involved, too much publicity, glorifying the killers" etc etc and the other half demanding more pics and videos because they all want to play armchair detective.

You're off the mark. I don't expect to see the evidence. I don't expect to ever know the truth. That's par for the course around here. The OP asked what evidence there is, the answer is not much considering a statement by an official or anonymous source is not evidence. Seems logical.

What is ridiculous is believing the things you hear from the media that change from one day to the next, most of which comes not from investigative reporting anymore, but from official statements. I remember when there used to be news without some official feeding it line by line at a press conference. I think it was called journalism?

Ah what the hell, it's pointless.

First of all, law enforcement agencies do not owe it to you to try and convince you of anything. You are neither judge, nor jury, nor executioner, so your opinion on whether they did it or not means little more than that of an ant. Thus, they aren't going to show you the evidence they're going to present in an ongoing criminal prosecution.

Second, really? No evidence? Film of them walking with backpacks, film of them setting them down, then film of their backpacks exploding and killing people. Remove the tinfoil hat, dear. Reality is having a hard time getting in.

Besides, not that this invalidates your opinion (there are lots of other things that do that), but do you even live in this country?

saoirse13:
Is it just me or am I missing something. I'm not condoning terrorist activity, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence that the two accused for the Boston bombings actually did it. All I' ve really seen is that the media have automatically put it put there that those two boys did it and that's all the evidence the public need. The word of the media and the government. The photographs of the alleged bombers walking with backpacks is about as little circumstantial evidence possible considering hundreds were seen to be walking the street with bags similar including members of the FBI. I don't know, I just think a little more evidence is needed before the whole world goes into uproar against two boys who may or may not have anything to do with these events

Um.
-Alleged confession to carjack victim
-Use of similar explosives while under police pursuit
-reaction of younger individual at time of the first blast (he was the only one not to react of those around him)
-One of the survivors saw the older brother plant the bomb, since he was right beside the thing when it exploded (helped police identify them as well)

etcetera

Deshin:

xDarc:
No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

A philosophical conundrum: If a crime is committed and no one took pics, did it make a sound?

Have you personally seen photos of every single homicide ever? Better go petition those prisons then because obviosly the majority of them must be innocent as no pics.

People can't make up their minds, one half is saying "the media's too involved, too much publicity, glorifying the killers" etc etc and the other half demanding more pics and videos because they all want to play armchair detective.

Here's the thing: No government, American or otherwise, owes its people disclosure of any criminal case's evidence at all. Evidence is disclosed to the JURY. AFTER the trial the evidence may be released into the public domain if it was a high profile case.

NiPah:

xDarc:

Deshin:

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

Really? Zero? I think that's going a bit far, as said a healthy cynical viewpoint is a good thing but you're straight off the paranoia spectrum. Pics will be present in the court of law where the defendant will be tried for the murder of 4 people as well as a slew of terrorist and other heavy crimes, if you're picked for the jury you'll have a chance to judge those "pics", otherwise most people including you and me will just get what ever is made public.

You guys are probably not aware of it, but the guy you're arguing with is the same guy who was asking how to take down a predator drone for when the police start targeting US citizens, and also called the police searching houses in Boston evidence of a "police state."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406662-Poll-Police-State-USA-Boston-Area-Raids?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.405773-Any-Ideas-on-how-to-take-down-a-predator-drone

So paranoia is probably pretty accurate.

Anyways, do we have any evidence that points to anyone else? Because there is evidence that points to him, so I don't see how it's crazy to proceed in that direction.

1) Two disturbed idiots fed on each other's paranoia, fear, and belief that if their lives were not as awesome as they thought they should be, it was because the society in which they lived was out to get them, and so they attacked that society. When discovered, they panicked and ran off shooting/throwing more home made explosives.

or

2) There is a vast conspiracy involving countless manipulated videos, photos, eyewitness reports, and the cooperation of two patsies with small home made bombs (but I guess not the large ones at the marathon) and guns who were willing to die for the cause when the manhunt for them began. Said chosen patsies being carefully selected to turn Americans against amateur boxers, Chechnyan immigrants, bros, and Muslims whose church leaders had denounced them as nuts, presumably because the President (or whoever would be in charge of such a conspiracy) wanted those groups to be even more hated than they already are.

Occam's Razor, anyone?

The survivor is an American citizen and will get a trial. A lot more information will come out then. Right now it looks like he ate up his brother's extremist Muslim bullshit and decided to Jihad the Great Satan. This isn't 9-11. People have a much different perspective and reaction to this terrorist nonsense than we did a decade ago. You won't see international intervention but you may see much tougher restriction on student and work visas for people from Muslim countries than we currently have. I am not so sure that is a bad thing.

Hang on, are you the Judge trying this case? Do you have or should you have access to any/all the evidence that the FBI has actually collected through out their investigation? No? Then why do you expect the media to provide anything more then "Court of Public Opinion" level of evidence. You need to remember that the media is only covering it because it drives the ratings up, and they're hardly going to get viewers by saying that these guys seem to be the guilty but they're not sure and the FBI isn't telling them anything to prove.

Then there's the Government, they doesn't actually have to make its evidence available to you. That you have seen whats been offered by the media and haven't jumped of the "OMG Terrorists must die" bandwagon is great, but expecting to have the the case definitively proven to everyone thats just a touch naive, especially when you consider just how many cases are taking place in the US at any one point in time. You might say you only want to major ones proven to you personally whats major to you might not be to someone else or vice versa.

Hero in a half shell:
Secondly when they were accosted didn't they shoot a policeman and drive off in a car lobbing bombs out the window?
I'd say those were the droids you were looking for.

That second part was pretty surreal wasn't it? When I heard the description of it I thought for a minute the news had gotten hold of part of the GTA 5 script. Still, I bet he got an achievement for having a six star wanted level that long before getting caught.

This is just hilarious. The government has no obligation to be providing as much information as it is, the only reason it's doing so is to assuage the public's nerves, and to look all nice and competent to make the politicians happy. The investigation, the accumulation and analysis of evidence, is ongoing. The media's blabbering on and on about the craziest shit, because they HAVE nothing new to say, so just repeat the same stuff and occasionally make wild guesses and conjectures. This isn't how justice works. The police don't snap their fingers and know everything. They investigate, gather evidence, follow procedure, make their arrest, and then take it to trial.

TRIAL. You know, the part where THE EVIDENCE is shown? And GUILT DETERMINED, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT? I can understand where all this confusion's coming from, with the media being so disorganized, and getting ahead of themselves with talking about guilt and punishment that people are forgetting that the trial, when all this stuff is SUPPOSED to happen, hasn't happened yet. That's where the arguments and evidence will be arranged, clearly, obviously, to demonstrate guilt, and that's what we should look at to see if it holds up, not the farce of the media tripping over each other to show up with breaking news. What's truly impressive is that the evidence that's there is so overwhelming that it really is a foregone conclusion as to the question of guilt, and that it's all been so widely publicized.

xDarc:

Deshin:

I'm all well and for people being critical and analytical but Jesus Christ people, not every nutjob blowing up something is the bloody Da Vinci Code.

No, but the United States government and it's federal agencies have zero credibility at this point. Don't see how that's a radical view. Basically, pics or it didn't happen.

And to the conspiracy theorists here, you're ridiculous. I understand skepticism towards the media and the government, but if you refuse to believe their statements about this level of evidence, then how are you going to believe any evidence, no matter how seemingly solid? - after all, they already lied about that other evidence, they just did a better job this time! The only way you'll know for sure is by marching down to Boston and demanding to look at the evidence yourself. And while you're out, hey, what else is the media lying about? Turns out the Soviet Union's back, and they're handing out free cupcakes, but the media is keeping a lid on it so they don't have to share them! I want that sugary Marxist goodness, dammit!

Smiley Face:
And to the conspiracy theorists here, you're ridiculous. I understand skepticism towards the media and the government, but if you refuse to believe their statements about this level of evidence, then how are you going to believe any evidence, no matter how seemingly solid? - after all, they already lied about that other evidence, they just did a better job this time! The only way you'll know for sure is by marching down to Boston and demanding to look at the evidence yourself. And while you're out, hey, what else is the media lying about? Turns out the Soviet Union's back, and they're handing out free cupcakes, but the media is keeping a lid on it so they don't have to share them! I want that sugary Marxist goodness, dammit!

It's ultimately a pointless train of thought anyway. You would have to go and gather all the evidence yourself, and even then you can't be sure it hasn't been altered or tampered with. Hell even if you do inspect everything yourself our senses aren't particularly reliable.

Jayemsal:
We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

Honestly I wasn't too sure myself if it was these guys involved until I heard about them throwing bombs out the window during the chase. I saw A LOT of pictures showing those mercs and fbi guys with similar backpacks to the ones the blew up at the marathon but of course any picture can be messed with, people can try to make you focus on whatever they want you to if they block off other parts of an image or throw a captioned box somewhere.

xDarc:

The carjacking victim is an unidentified Chinese national who speaks little English. An interpreter was not used to get his initial statements.

lol. Just lol.

This "unidentified Chinese National" is only unidentified because he asked to remain anonymous. Second, he graduated from Northeastern, and now holds a job in the area, so something tells me he can speak English just fine. Also, he gave a 2.5 hour interview with The Boston Globe talking about his experiences, without an interpreter present either, so again, his English is just fine.

Another thought, that interview really blows a hole in your "there's no journalism anymore! only quotes from press conferences" theory you've got going on.

But I think I'll just quote you:

xDarc:

Ah what the hell, it's pointless.

imahobbit4062:

Jayemsal:
We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

To be fair, confessions have been coerced or given out by (innocent) compulsive liars in the past, but yeah, in this case all the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favour of the two Chechen brothers being guilty. I kinda feel sorry for the OP because her argument has been utterly trashed by now.

Elementary - Dear Watson:
The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

Your kidding right. Trust the professionals who ultimately have a track record of lying to the public, to hide their own agenda. And trust the judge, well thats even if it goes to court, which I'd say there will be a seriously slim chance of. You could nearly place bets that this lads untimely death will surprisingly happen just before any court case can take place. You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.
Nope it will all be swept under the rug from the publics eyes and ears then in 10 years it will be used as part of some excuse for another war

JoJo:

imahobbit4062:

Jayemsal:
We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

To be fair, confessions have been coerced or given out by (innocent) compulsive liars in the past, but yeah, in this case all the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favour of the two Chechen brothers being guilty. I kinda feel sorry for the OP because her argument has been utterly trashed by now.

My argument has gone out the window and into an unmarked grave. Though to be fair I have quite enjoyed the ride.

Jayemsal:
We have a confession, that's what.

And we have only THE MEDIA and THE GUMMITS word on that! False flag conspiracy scandal media coverup!!!!!

Daystar Clarion:

The FBI isn't at liberty to tell faux news about it's goings on.

Would they take the information anyway?

Regardless, besides actually being on-scene, of course you're only going to have the word of the media and government officials. I'm curious as to what else you would have.

saoirse13:
You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.

[citation needed]

Sadly this world has come to a "My opinion matters, so cater to me!" type of mentality.

OP: No one has to convince you of anything, unless you are on the jury that tries these two.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe there is enough evidence.

It doesn't matter if you think they are guilty or not guilty.

In this case, your opinion doesn't mean s***.

The only thing that matters is what their jury will think. Nothing more.

Not really sure what more "proof" you need: Cameras show them entering with backpacks and leaving without them, with testimony that they placed it at the source of the blast. They stockpiled weapons and explosives, using them on the police. There's that whole confession thing too.

If you're looking for absolute, definitive, without-a-doubt, we-got-em, wholesale indisputable proof (such as video footage of them crafting the bombs or audio of them making the plans)
Well, you'll be looking for a while because that's not going to exist.

To be sceptical of the government and to say they don't always tell the truth is perfectly reasonable. But at the same time that doesn't make them compulsive liars who must cover up everything that ever happens in order to further some secretive "agenda", now that's dangerous territory.

If they are innocent then what other choice does that leave? That the government is using them as a scapegoat because...they did it? False flags might be a real thing but here, there is absolutely no reason. There is nothing here where the risk of being caught outweighs the benefits.
It's not even like they can be called Iranian spies and used as a rallying point for yet another invasion. They're American citizens who immigrated from Chechnya and I doubt America has the balls to try a war with Russia.

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