Show me more proof. (Boston bombings)

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I do want to see more evidence.
Right now it just al seems so surreal

krazykidd:
Best case scenerio : they did it .

Worst case scenerio : they are scapegoats .

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

.....What? I'm sorry what? American's and their prejudiced views of Muslims? What?...You do know that just about everyone I know has been saying that the second suspect was a stupid kid who didn't understand what he was doing. Don't make assumptions like that man, seriously.

Please, please don't go down this route. Which is easier to believe? That two men with few friends went down to their local hardware store and bought a pressure cooker, an egg timer, and a bag of nails and BBs, or that a vast chunk of our federal government plotted this to do...something?

Just read this article. There really isn't a leg to stand on here.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/04/15/why_the_conspiracy_theorists_will_have_a_tough_time_with_boston.html

The one thing I get tired of in conversations like this is the constant media bashing. I'm only a local reporter in a mid-market, but it gets to me after a while. So let's clear away (well, just one part for now) the rampant bullshit.

"Just the mouthpieces of the government."

Blame us... for that. Who else should we talk to? Using the bombing for an example... witnesses? Yeah, done, bigtime done. Hell, I interviewed a guy who was across the street from bomb one and I'm in a city hundreds of miles away from Boston, working for a local media outlet. Suspects; can't, one's dead the other has a bullet through his throat and is in police custody. Experts? I'll agree that's pretty pointless, but the networks have that covered. So who's left?

The fucking government police agencies... that's who. Want me to write a bombing story without sourcing government agencies... fine it looks something like this.

A bunch of people saw a bomb go off. It killed some folks and blew arms and legs off of others. Someone saw the police shoot someone and arrest someone else a couple of days later. The end.

Not exactly informative is it? Kind of leaves you wanting to know more huh?

That's because the bitchers, whiners, and complainers are so fucking uneducated that they don't understand the concept of sourcing. We (the media) aren't telling you what we think about the situation. We're telling you what we've learned. Don't trust the government... FUCKING FINE, then don't. Trust me, we don't care if you trust the government or not. We're not telling you to trust them, we are just telling you what they are telling us. Make up your own mind. Quotes from the "gubment agencies" are just that... what they've told us. Stop asking us to tell you what to think, and think for yourselves. Want to know why Fox news is so crappy and biased... BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO BE. Right-wingers would rather be told what they want to hear from a sympathetic source. Fucking left-wingers want the same damn thing and get their news from left leaning fishwraps and MSNBC. All so they can just easily agree and say "yup" and go about their lives having all the conclusions drawn for them eliminating their need to THINK CRITICALLY so they can use their remaining brainpower watching the x factor or dancing with the stars.

Fucking public. Demanding to know everything then pissing and moaning about "the media" just because we have the shear fucking audacity to try and compile data and reports and keep the public informed. What a bunch of entitled, whiny, bitches. And yes, I used "entitled" because it rings here on the escapist as one of the most hated of accusations and I want to make sure I'm putting proper emphasis behind my anger.

Getting away from the anger. Yes there are bad media outlets, bad reporters, and they set a horrible example. And there are the mistakes. We do our best, but we are only human. You've never fucked up once at your job? Fucking perfect in all aspects of it? If you are well good for you. Most can't claim workplace perfection.

Sorry for the rant, but that's been building up for a while. I see it all over comment pages and other message boards and I just ignore it. But then I come to the escapist to talk about the hobby I use to wind down after a day of thankless hard work, and see media bashing here. Here, where even when I argue with another escapist about something I feel like we all have something in common and can walk away from any disagreement with respect for one another. I just really feel for the reporters who are on the ground for this sort of thing and subject to all of the public's distain. The same public they are trying to help understand the situation. I get mad about it, and the most important things I report on are arguments at a city council meeting, or a local semi-pro sports team, or the latest drive-by or house fire. I can only imagine how pissed they must be.

Gonna go play some Dishonored and cool down. Have a nice day fellow escapists.

Virgilthepagan:
Please, please don't go down this route. Which is easier to believe? That two men with few friends went down to their local hardware store and bought a pressure cooker, an egg timer, and a bag of nails and BBs, or that a vast chunk of our federal government plotted this to do...something?

Just read this article. There really isn't a leg to stand on here.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/04/15/why_the_conspiracy_theorists_will_have_a_tough_time_with_boston.html

Well, I just read through the article and was scanning the comments. One thing that stood out to be me was "They wanted people to accept Police State Lock Downs, and door to door searches. With no warrants." It's a stretch for sure, but plausible as a motive.

There is no proof, Elvis and John Lennon fed it all to the Loch Ness monster because the Illuminati reptilians told them to so that corporate America can control the oil so they can afford to make a fake Mars landing video. Cookey enough?

Seems like there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that puts the suspects in the guilty category.

x-Tomfoolery-x:
[quote="Virgilthepagan" post="18.406732.16939464"]
Well, I just read through the article and was scanning the comments. One thing that stood out to be me was "They wanted people to accept Police State Lock Downs, and door to door searches. With no warrants." It's a stretch for sure, but plausible as a motive.

I saw that comment. What, there's never been any lockdowns or house-to-house searches while looking for a dangerous fugitive before? I haven't checked the history of manhunts recently, but I find that very hard to believe.

Apparently, confession. But even if they didn't do it, they committed enough other crimes as to make it beside the point, regardless, it makes people feel safe. Although I feel bad for the surviving(?) bomber, I cannot imagine the horror he'll go through if he survives, most likely execution.

CriticalMiss:
There is no proof, Elvis and John Lennon fed it all to the Loch Ness monster because the Illuminati reptilians told them to so that corporate America can control the oil so they can afford to make a fake Mars landing video. Cookey enough?

Seems like there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that puts the suspects in the guilty category.

Sounds legit. So long as they give us Bruce Lee and Jimi Hendrix back, I'm cool. We'll trade the clone of Paul McCartney that's been pretending to be him for years.

madkill:
Its to make the public calm the fuck down, in about four years time they'll release a statement declaring that those two boys were wrongly prosecuted all along, however we'll have solved the actual case a year prior to that discovery and just not told anyone out-loud.

Impossible. The survivor has already committed insane amounts of crimes.

Life isn't a video game. If you kill a cop while escaping because you didn't do the crime in question, YOU GO TO PRISON.

...Yeaaah, I don't buy that. Judging by their actions... the perpetrators seem pretty guilty.

Jesus folks, way to overreact. OP wasn't proclaiming the suspect's innocence, just asking for more evidence. Trying to learn more before forming an opinion, which is admirable. No need to follow up said evidence with hostility.

"...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." -Hermann Göring

The funny thing is, these conspiracy theorists seem to want to have a several different camera angles of the exact crime that they are accused of, yet these are the same people that freak out about police states whenever a new camera goes up outside of a privately run store in a public place. We never really have "proof", clear video evidence of the people doing what they are accused of, but it's about linking the accused to the crime using physical and circumstantial evidence. In this case, they have a wealth of both.

If you want to complain about lacking of physical evidence, there are many murder and other trials going on right now with much less evidence, but will probably still end in convictions. This one is about as clear-cut as it gets. I'll be the first to say that the Boston police pretty much overreacted and probable did some legally grey things, and I'll be the first to bash the media for reporting things with little to go on and assuming too much, as well as the law enforcement agencies who put a city in lockdown without telling the people who lived there what was happening for eight hours only to finally admit that they lost the guy, only for him to be found once the lockdown was lifted. But these guys really didn't go to great lengths to conceal the fact that they were the ones who did this.

Compatriot Block:
You guys are probably not aware of it, but the guy you're arguing with is the same guy who was asking how to take down a predator drone for when the police start targeting US citizens, and also called the police searching houses in Boston evidence of a "police state."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406662-Poll-Police-State-USA-Boston-Area-Raids?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.405773-Any-Ideas-on-how-to-take-down-a-predator-drone

So paranoia is probably pretty accurate.

Anyways, do we have any evidence that points to anyone else? Because there is evidence that points to him, so I don't see how it's crazy to proceed in that direction.

Ah thanks, while it's fun to debate better stay away from this.

saoirse13:

Elementary - Dear Watson:
The public don't need the evidence, the judge does... and in the case of home grown terrorism it is usually classified information not releasable to the public anyway... This is the type of thing where you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs!

Your kidding right. Trust the professionals who ultimately have a track record of lying to the public, to hide their own agenda. And trust the judge, well thats even if it goes to court, which I'd say there will be a seriously slim chance of. You could nearly place bets that this lads untimely death will surprisingly happen just before any court case can take place. You look at the history of America when it comes to things like this and 9 times out of 10 there is no suspect either thei die of 'natural causes, suicide or some lone ' vigilantly gets to them before anything can go public.
Nope it will all be swept under the rug from the publics eyes and ears then in 10 years it will be used as part of some excuse for another war

...So...are we to take it then that no evidence would satisfy you? After all, you'd only ever hear it from official sources (which you just said can't be trusted) or the media (which not only incorporate the former but you note in the first post as also untrustworthy)...so how exactly would we prove it to you? You don't seem to give us a lot of sourcing options.

imahobbit4062:

Jayemsal:
We have a confession, that's what.

I laughed too hard at this. I thought it was widely known there was a confession. What more do you need?

Problem is that a lot of people have confessed for crimes they didn't commit in the past. Sometimes the 15 minutes of fame is enough to warrant a life in prison for some people.

That said I still think the police chase, photographic evidence, and other corroborating evidence is plenty to declare the two guilty. Had they just come forward out of the blue and said "Yeah we totally did it." I would be more suspicious.

Even if there was some sort of shadow government secret agenda, how would this help them. Complacent people are more easy to rule that fearful ones, though I suppose they may have read too much Machiavelli and not enough Marx.

They threw bombs at and shot to death police officers. Sounds like they are the right guys to me.

Not everything is a huge conspiracy cover up. Just because the media doesn't have the evidence, doesn't mean the government lacks evidence.

I don't understand what more evidence you need...

-They have surveillance videos of the suspects.
-The suspects killed a police officer, hijacked a car, and confessed to the man they hijacked the car from that they were the bombers.
-They threw explosives and shot at the police that were pursuing them
-The one that lived reportedly confessed while in custody.

Like others have said, not everything is a conspiracy.

krazykidd:

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

I haven't seen hypocrisy like this in a while. You condemn prejudices and sweeping generalizations of a religion, while you insult an entire country with a sweeping generaliztion. Are you serious? A comment like this is not productive and you should apologize for it.

alphamalet:
I don't understand what more evidence you need...

-They have surveillance videos of the suspects.
-The suspects killed a police officer, hijacked a car, and confessed to the man they hijacked the car from that they were the bombers.
-They threw explosives and shot at the police that were pursuing them
-The one that lived reportedly confessed while in custody.

Like others have said, not everything is a conspiracy.

krazykidd:

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

I haven't seen hypocrisy like this in a while. You condemn prejudices and sweeping generalizations of a religion, while you insult an entire country with a sweeping generaliztion. Are you serious? A comment like this is not productive and you should apologize for it.

I won't apologize for it . Of course not EVERYONE thinks that . That's just comon sense . And what insult did i throw towards an entire country ? That they have prejudice views of muslims and islam ? Have you been living under a rock? Prejudice , racism and discrimination towards muslims have been present A LOT since 9/11 . Not to say it wasn't present before . Add the fact that Americans ( or most people in general ) don't care about the truth , they just want to feel safe . So i stand by my comment .

saoirse13:
How many times in American history has their been some sort of disaster where one or two nutcases where to blame, confessions were given, but in reality 10 or 20 years later the truth starts to come out and maybe the government fucked up and it was actually the work of themselves.

I honestly don't know...

I'm assuming you do since you asked such a leading question. So, how many times has this happened?

krazykidd:
Best case scenerio : they did it .

Worst case scenerio : they are scapegoats .

End result : americans are reassured , and they prejudice views of muslams are reinforced .

Conclusion :. Whether they did it or not , it doesn't matter . The end result is the same.

As an American I do resent that. I don't judge people by their religion, but by their actions. Muslims and terrorists are two different things, it just happens to be that terrorism is popular with Muslim extremists against the USA, which is why there are a lot of people wary of Muslims here.
Just as there are a lot of judgmental non-Americans who lump all of us in together as lazy, or barbaric, or lacking culture or racists gun toting morons because of what they see/read/hear instead of leaving the judgements at the door.
In other words, don't assume you know all of us because we can just as easily label you and file you away as an asshole.

Edit for OTness: I think you can just blame it on Bush and Cheney since they're the real scapegoats for anything that goes wrong in America nowadays.
Or you can read a little bit into the story and find out theres photographic evidence and video that shows those 2 guys dropping the packages where the bombs go off, one of which was on his cell a few moments before it goes off and the ONLY one not surprised or panicked when the 1st bomb goes off.
Of course dropping the packages off aren't signs of guilt, amirite?

Lionsfan:
[quote="xDarc" post="18.406732.16938114"]
Second, he graduated from Northeastern, and now holds a job in the area, so something tells me he can speak English just fine.

Excuse me, I misread an article. The suspects were not speaking in English.

NiPah:
[quote="Compatriot Block" post="18.406732.16938415"]You guys are probably not aware of it, but the guy you're arguing with is the same guy who was asking how to take down a predator drone for when the police start targeting US citizens, and also called the police searching houses in Boston evidence of a "police state."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406662-Poll-Police-State-USA-Boston-Area-Raids?page=1
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.405773-Any-Ideas-on-how-to-take-down-a-predator-drone

So paranoia is probably pretty accurate.

Maybe I'll put that in a signature so I can save you the trouble of following me around with a sign. I was watching federal agents lie about burning people alive in Waco, TX before you were you were even born. When you were 7, I was reading the paper 2 days after 9/11 telling us that yes, we found hijackers' passports laying neatly on top of the pile of atomized rubble, somehow surviving the destruction.

People still talked about the Kennedy assassination when I was little, about how ridiculous the magic bullet theory was and how the whole country was waking up to smell the turd that was the Warren commission after more than 20 years. Maybe it was because people communicated ideas back with more than 140 characters, or in wall posts- but people on average were less distracted and more aware that bullshit was everywhere, propaganda surrounding them.

You can call me paranoid all day long, it does not change the fact that the US government has and will continue to lie to you. They are not to be trusted, the media is not to be trusted because they aren't journalists anymore, they just wait for the state to tell them something and parrot the lines fed to them.

The older you get, the more you will see it, and the less faith you will have in the whole system. Or you'll be like some other folks I know my age, aloof, absorbed in television or entertainment media, blissfully unaware, and totally unequipped to deal with reality when bad shit happens.

amaranth_dru:

As an American I do resent that.

As an American, I accept it. I mean, let's face it. A couple of brown people (who we conflate with Muslims, as a whole) were posted in the NY Post, and not even the FBI saying they aren't the guys can stop us from tirading against the Muslim (by which they mean Arab) world and we had Muslims getting assaulted in Boston. The brown kind. Even pictures of two white dudes didn't stop the hate or outrage, and THEN we found out they were Muslim, and....

I feel shame that we are portrayed this way, but not because it is incorrect. America has, as a whole, been decidedly prejudiced with regards to the Muslim/Arab communities across the nation and worldwide.

What krazykidd said does not implicate any given American. While you might not be part of the problem, consider then that you may also not be representative of America or Americans as a whole.

We're a nation where like fifteen percent admitted they wouldn't vote for a black person.

We're a nation where four years after the election, 17% of voters thought Obama was a Muslim. Higher if you don't go with Pew.

More to the point, we're a nation that jumped to the conclusion that the Boston Marathon bombing was an act of religious terror with no actual evidence.

Virgilthepagan:
Please, please don't go down this route. Which is easier to believe? That two men with few friends went down to their local hardware store and bought a pressure cooker, an egg timer, and a bag of nails and BBs, or that a vast chunk of our federal government plotted this to do...something?

Just read this article. There really isn't a leg to stand on here.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/04/15/why_the_conspiracy_theorists_will_have_a_tough_time_with_boston.html

I think Alan Moore stated that people turn to conspiracy theories because it's much more comforting to think these terrible things happen because of some vast conspiracy then the reality that shit is just random chaos.

I would never say it's impossible for false flags to happen, it's possible just highly unlikely.

xDarc:
When you were 7, I was reading the paper 2 days after 9/11 telling us that yes, we found hijackers' passports laying neatly on top of the pile of atomized rubble, somehow surviving the destruction.

Unfortunately, the truth is a little less black and white, not to mention less absurd. There's evidence of personal effects being recovered from plane crashes, fires and explosions. Even things like identification. It wasn't as neat as you would frame it, though I'm sure the people you are parroting did phrase it that way so as to ridicule the very uncontroversial discovery of personal identification and/or effects.

You can call me paranoid all day long, it does not change the fact that the US government has and will continue to lie to you

It also doesn't change the fact that you're making up new lies, no matter how honest your intentions may be.

totally unequipped to deal with reality when bad shit happens

Isn't that why people cook up conspiracy theories in the first place? Because they can't handle the fact that bad shit happens?

SaneAmongInsane:
I would never say it's impossible for false flags to happen, it's possible just highly unlikely.

It also generally requires too many people for it not to get out. And I don't mean tinfoil hats claiming that there's some backmasked message in some interview with a conspirator, but I mean, actual people.

Zachary Amaranth:

amaranth_dru:

As an American I do resent that.

As an American, I accept it. I mean, let's face it. A couple of brown people (who we conflate with Muslims, as a whole) were posted in the NY Post, and not even the FBI saying they aren't the guys can stop us from tirading against the Muslim (by which they mean Arab) world and we had Muslims getting assaulted in Boston. The brown kind. Even pictures of two white dudes didn't stop the hate or outrage, and THEN we found out they were Muslim, and....

I feel shame that we are portrayed this way, but not because it is incorrect. America has, as a whole, been decidedly prejudiced with regards to the Muslim/Arab communities across the nation and worldwide.

What krazykidd said does not implicate any given American. While you might not be part of the problem, consider then that you may also not be representative of America or Americans as a whole.

We're a nation where like fifteen percent admitted they wouldn't vote for a black person.

We're a nation where four years after the election, 17% of voters thought Obama was a Muslim. Higher if you don't go with Pew.

More to the point, we're a nation that jumped to the conclusion that the Boston Marathon bombing was an act of religious terror with no actual evidence.

And you don't think there are equal amounts of people who use gut reaction over logic in other countries? It isn't America as a whole, and saying it in a general sense is an insult to those who are not. I am sure the type you describe are not a majority, and your statistics show that between 15 and 20% of the country is just stupid (I gave you 3 points for error-room). I hear more in person about people feeling sorry for families involved and very very little about terrorism or "those damn muslims" and I don't necessarily live in an "enlightened" part of the country. I do talk to a lot of people or overhear conversations in my area, but that doesn't represent the whole, still I hear little to nothing in the way of anti-Muslim hate speech you seem to attribute to a "majority", nor do I hear a lot of racist statements, though its not non-existent.
My point is that krazykidd went a bit far by saying "americans" and not "some americans" in their post. It bothers me and insults me because I get tired of hearing blanket statements like that.

erttheking:

You do know that just about everyone I know has been saying that the second suspect was a stupid kid who didn't understand what he was doing. Don't make assumptions like that man, seriously.

I wasn't aware you were representative of America as a whole. I'm surprised polling companies bother with extensive samples and the tedium (not to mention cost) of trying to get such representation. Have you considered volunteering your services to ease the burden?

But seriously, this isn't the best case for "America doesn't have a problem with Muslims." It's a good case for "the people I know don't have a problem with Muslims," thought.

Zachary Amaranth:

Isn't that why people cook up conspiracy theories in the first place? Because they can't handle the fact that bad shit happens?

It's the opposite. Because I want to know WHY the bad shit happens. My 60 year old neighbor came over to my house on 9/11 all freaked out because she thought the Russians were attacking... I was like no, it's probably just al Qaeda, they've only been threating to attack us for about the past decade. The people who bombed the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania? Just got a blank stare, this was a person who had been asleep their entire life.

But then bin Laden says I didn't do it, and passports float gently down to the street when they had a hard time finding human remains for fuck's sake. Give me a fucking break. Then we're gonna go after Iraq, and I was like why? Saddam does not harbor terrorists. He gives money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, but bin Laden had already asked for refuge in Iraq back in 98' and Saddam refused. Again, when I told people this, more blank stares. People back then were like, bin Laden is brown, Iraqis are brown- what's the difference?

Just unfucking believable.

It's been nothing but lies and misinformation since I was young and it is astounding that anyone today believes a single word of it, ever. To believe them is to take the easy way out so people can go back to sleep.

amaranth_dru:

And you don't think there are equal amounts of people who use gut reaction over logic in other countries?

So are you changing your argument from "America's not like that" to "other people do it too?"

Because it might be true that other people do it, but that doesn't negate the affirmative you seem to now be admitting.

It isn't America as a whole, and saying it in a general sense is an insult to those who are not.

I'm not insulted, and by your logic if I'm not insulted than you're wrong to call it an insult to those who are not.

I hear more in person about people feeling sorry for families involved and very very little about terrorism or "those damn muslims" and I don't necessarily live in an "enlightened" part of the country.

Yes, personal anecdotes definitely beat overall reactions. On that note, since almost 100% of the people I know support same sex marriage, I'm just going to state that an overwhelming majority of Americans do.

image

What's that, imaginary headset? That doesn't reflect America as a whole?

My point is that krazykidd went a bit far by saying "americans" and not "some americans" in their post.

I'd personally note that he said "Americans" and not "all Americans," but then, I'm not the one looking to deny a national problem.

Daystar Clarion:
Your mistake was using the media as a source of reliable information.

The FBI isn't at liberty to tell faux news about it's goings on.

very good point, and throw on that im sick of so many people who think that the government is the cause of everyones grief every single time

xDarc:

It's the opposite. Because I want to know WHY the bad shit happens.

If you merely wanted to know why, you wouldn't have to go to truther sites that think steel is impervious to fire and other hogwash.

But then bin Laden says I didn't do it, and passports float gently down to the street when they had a hard time finding human remains for fuck's sake.

Again, you post a ridiculous version of events and then attack it. Isn't that pretty much a strawman attack?

Then we're gonna go after Iraq, and I was like why? Saddam does not harbor terrorists.

It's almost insulting that you post this, because it's an actual lie mixed in with the fake lies you're claiming are made.

The difference here? Evidence. We have evidence that the Saddam line was bull. We don't for 9-11.

People back then were like, bin Laden is brown, Iraqis are brown- what's the difference?

An ill-informed nation doesn't validate your claims.

It's been nothing but lies and misinformation since I was young and it is astounding that anyone today believes a single word of it, ever. To believe them is to take the easy way out so people can go back to sleep.

Or, you know, when presented with evidence....

Where's the profit in this being a government conspiracy? I don't see the profit. Without some illusion of potentnial gains, at the very least, why go a-murderin' your tax-paying, money-in-your-pocket-putting citizens? It's like lopping off your thumb so the rest of your body can be horrified of your other hand.
The whole thing is ludicrous.

I like a good conspiracy theory but the problem is most conspiracy theorists try and find little details that don't really prove anything (just dig up irrelevant questions) while the really big questions are staring them right in the face.

For example: all the crazy theories about the twin towers being rigged to blow are irrelevant. Rigged to blow or not(and I think most of us would agree, not), those towers were melting from the plane crashes. The real question would be, why didn't the government do anything when they were in fact warned about it?

Another example: We invaded Iraq because of WMDs that weren't there. The real question I have is, since there were no WMDs, why didn't the government just plant some and lie to us?

There are many interesting questions about this Boston event, but its not about if these guys did it or not.

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