Defining Misogynism

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Guitarmasterx7:

It's more like the equivalent of saying "I'm not racist but I think the Rodney King riots set progressivism back if anything." It's more about the social implications of it than my personal feelings.

Also since you keep going "LOL U COULDNT GET LAID IN HIGH SCHOOL," it's more that I had to hide my ps2 whenever I had girls over.

Care to explain why? Come on, you didn't "have to" do anything, you chose to. I mean, were you worried that they'd see your PS2 and immediately want to spend the whole time they were over at your house playing Mortal Kombat? Because that would be a legit worry.

Also, do you care to explain why female gamers in 2013 deserve to be punished for what non-gamer girls that you went to high school with apparently did?

P.S. You were the one who brought up getting laid in high school.

bananafishtoday:
Instead of that, I recommend this 40-second video to get the basic gist: http://vimeo.com/64941331

That video really creeped me out. That was kind of brilliantly done.

OT: A misogynist is anyone, man or woman, who is in a state of believing women to be inferior to men.

Misogyny is an attribute of any action, artistic expression, etc, that conforms to the mentality that women are inferior to men.

It's possible to perform misogynistic actions without being a misogynist.

For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action. Even if you select the male candidate because he has more experience and schooling, your selecting him was a misogynistic action, because it fits the mindset that women are worth less than men.

We have to stop being so afraid of the technicalities and definitions. Your perception of people should come from noticing trends in their actions, not just from any one action.

For instance, we see in the Vimeo video that the male in the frame is getting lots of ice cream and not letting the woman have any. This is misogynistic, but not indicative that he is a misogynist (he may just be very self centered). However, after she gets some ice cream, we see him crying, throwing a fit, and saying "feminazis stole my ice cream". These multiple instances are what paint the character as a misogynist.

(I think I lost my point in there somewhere...)

Misogyny: Hatred of Women, pure and simple...

what this guy is 'hating' isn't 'women', he's hating 'chicks', this breed of 'women' that is 'modern', whoreish, entitled, self-affirming, and using old school stereotypes to their 'advantage' while completely ignoring all the 'disadvantages' because for some god-awful reason they are allowed to and other women like me can't... i hate these bitches too -.-

do i like his 'approach', hell no, mostly because he's clumping us all into the same pot where there is a CLEAR difference from what 'I' am and what these 'chicks' are, its mostly due to self-respect, nature, and various other cultural things, i quite honestly would never dream of acting like these 'women', but due to 'culture' people have expected it of me just because i have tits... how they were raised and how i was raise is apparently EXTREMELY different, yet me, as not a 'chick' get the brunt backlash of this bullshit... not just you supposed 'alpha males', whom quite honestly, you shouldn't be complaining if one of these 'chicks' turns you down, as my one friend used to say 'bitches ain't worth it', and really these 'women' aren't worth it...

to oppose the obvious 'male superiority' of this vid, i could quite honestly say 'tough shit, same bullshit is happening to us too' really... like i said, there's a difference between what i am and these 'chicks' yet 'men' expect the same from me as them, or they 'assume' i'll act the same, so in the end 'I' have to change my own actions to either appeal to them or blow them off entirely because they are just as much of assholes... its because of these double-standards, and these self-entitled people, on both sides of the gender fence, that us 'normal' people get so god-awful confused about just what the hell we are, since everyone else expects something 'different' and no matter how 'we' act we're the ones that are 'wrong'...

i don't disagree with this guy, i'm a eugenicist, i want the human race to go forth and be all it can be and believe one way of doing that is good breeding... sadly its also guys like this who think they have so much 'game' that are just as bad as their hated rivals the 'chicks' that turn them down its really all just pitiful and speaks of nothing good for the future... personally i feel the 'tone' could be different, and less 'man on top, i am king' and more just speaking as a human being, as a woman who's had deal with all this gender bullshit my whole life it gets bloody old, especially when i, who was raised in a matriarch household, have to bend over backwards and work five times harder then some hussy cause i DON'T want to show off my tits only for some DUDE to complain he's not getting 'game' is bullshit... let them be whores, let them f*ck up, why not you so-called 'alpha-males' put your d*cks back in your pants and be 'nice' to the actually hard working women and stop treating us like these bitches, maybe then we'd stop responding to you the same way they do? seems to work for them~

boots:

Guitarmasterx7:

It's more like the equivalent of saying "I'm not racist but I think the Rodney King riots set progressivism back if anything." It's more about the social implications of it than my personal feelings.

Also since you keep going "LOL U COULDNT GET LAID IN HIGH SCHOOL," it's more that I had to hide my ps2 whenever I had girls over.

Care to explain why? Come on, you didn't "have to" do anything, you chose to.

Also, do you care to explain why female gamers in the 21st century deserve to be punished for what non-gamer girls that you went to high school with apparently did?

How are they being punished by games that aren't for them existing? All joking aside, I am not "punished" by Twilight not appealing to me. There's a market for it and I'm not it. That doesn't mean movies aren't for me, it means Twilight isn't for me, and Twilight has every right to exist even though I wouldn't like watching it. Twilight is to movies as dead or alive or dragon's crown is to videogames.

The thing about high school was less about my personal experience and more about the general attitude towards videogames predating the mid-late 2000s. It created the environment that allowed dead or alive to get all the way to 8 or whatever it's at. Which is fine. My point is that everything doesn't have to be for everyone. If you're not there, nobody is going to make things for you. So when you show up late and then get angry when people make things that aren't for you it's like "well yeah, you weren't here so we made something that wasn't for you and people liked it so we're making more."

You're mistaking me saying "this is why things are that way" for me saying I think things should be a certain way. It's nice when everyone can enjoy a game. I played through both borderlands, portal 2, and saints row with my girlfriend. I just think there's a place for games for guys, or girls, or kids, or adults too. I think its great that girls aren't weirded out by videogames anymore and I would like to see more games that everyone can enjoy. I also like all the blood and titties in god of war and the attitude that it has to be one or the other bothers me.

Feel free to take any of that out of context and put words in my mouth. I'm done.

Lieju:

ccdohl:

Lieju:

What, like the fact that 50% of consumers are women?

Actually, I take serious issue with that statistic. I know that Jim Sterling used it to make a point in his video yesterday, but I don't think that it applies to the types of games that we are talking about.

The only thing that I could find on it when I did my own research was a study by the ESRB that notes a sharp rise due to casual pad and phone games. In other words, not the games that we usually consider in our discussions.

In a sense, Jim was guilty of equivocation of one type of gaming with another. Women aren't underrepresented despite being 50% of the gaming market, they are actually part of a market that may may as well be separate.

I know it will be anecdotal, but think about that 50% claim. Does it seem right to you? My experience tells me that it is probably wrong, what does yours tell you?

Half of human population is female, that was the statistic I was referring to.
If women aren't playing the more hard-core games, then the question should be 'why'?
Maybe because of the sexism, if not in the games, then in the marketing that makes the games like Bioshock Infinite look like they are for boys.

This is why I find feminism to be as of now a stupid ignorant cause. The markets can be described as three groups. Female dominated, Male dominated, and gender neutral. 50% of gamers are female, does not mean that games will share equal representation. There isn't any sinister force at work, just games are being marketed to different groups, and in this case most of the blockbuster games are male markets. Women choosing to buy games that they like or marketed to them is what is happening, just it is not how you would like to see or vision how it would be.

The fact that this comes up alot and that it seems like no one bother to look, or research this shit is bothersome.

Misogyny is hatred of women, male chauvinism is the perspective that men are inherently better than women. Better at what? I have no idea. I subscribe to neither. On average, men and women are distinct, each with their own advantages, and hatred is giving them far more attention than they're worth. To really hate someone requires a personal connection with them and a whole lot of work; hating entire groups is the sloppy product of paranoia and stupidity. Nebulous or otherwise, hatred also betrays a certain, twisted idol worship, something else I can't quite wrap my mind around. I'm the center of the observable universe, not women.

I'm often mistaken for a misogynist but it's a misunderstanding. I honestly don't treat or think of women that much differently than men(despite having different uses for them) but it often appears that I do because I don't deign to offer them special consideration. When I'm uncivil to them I'm not doing anything I wouldn't do to men, but it's somehow taken that way. And while I realize I'm statistically likely to be more privileged and they disadvantaged, I refuse to take responsibility for that to the extent that it influences my behavior. If I want to be uncivil to someone at the micro level then I'm simply not going to let my statistically insignificant contribution to a "problem" on a macro level determine my actions. It's ridiculous to demand that of me, and besides it's not in the name of equality, either.

Frankly, I'm not sure how much of a problem any of this really is. It's not hard to imagine the potential benefit of living in a society dominated by white males as a white male, and I can't begin to imagine how so many of my brethren take pleasure in relinquishing the power they wield. I have heard that there are a great deal of benefits in living in societies with greater equality although I have no idea what they are or if those are coincidental. I imagine most of them probably would be, and even if not, I'm not sure I'd be willing to trade them for control over another human being. A harem would probably be worth living a shorter life without reality television, after all.

lacktheknack:
For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action.

...no, no you really aren't. That example is bad and you should feel bad. Only an absolute fanatic can claim that choosing one candidate over another means you hate the other's gender. OK, unless you actually do but let's assume you are a fair person and a decent human being. If you can point and say "Candidate A has 5 years professional experience in our line of work, while candidate B doesn't" or similar, how is that dictated by hate? You are literally applying the same measure to both - at the end of the day every rational person would agree that if you're looking for an experienced...I dunno, origami folder, you aren't discriminating based on gender, nationality, age, or whatever by not taking on inexperienced ones.

DoPo:

lacktheknack:
For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action.

...no, no you really aren't. That example is bad and you should feel bad. Only an absolute fanatic can claim that choosing one candidate over another means you hate the other's gender. OK, unless you actually do but let's assume you are a fair person and a decent human being. If you can point and say "Candidate A has 5 years professional experience in our line of work, while candidate B doesn't" or similar, how is that dictated by hate? You are literally applying the same measure to both - at the end of the day every rational person would agree that if you're looking for an experienced...I dunno, origami folder, you aren't discriminating based on gender, nationality, age, or whatever by not taking on inexperienced ones.

You'll notice that if you quoted my whole post, then your reply doesn't work, because I defined misogyny differently than you did.

I didn't say that misogyny = hate, I said that misogyny = conforms to the view that women are worth less than men.

If you disagree with that, then let's talk about that, but we have to start on the same basis to have a discussion. Make sure you read my whole post, though, as it's a bit different than the norm.

(Not that I'll be active in it, I have to go to bed in a few minutes...)

lacktheknack:

DoPo:

lacktheknack:
For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action.

...no, no you really aren't. That example is bad and you should feel bad. Only an absolute fanatic can claim that choosing one candidate over another means you hate the other's gender. OK, unless you actually do but let's assume you are a fair person and a decent human being. If you can point and say "Candidate A has 5 years professional experience in our line of work, while candidate B doesn't" or similar, how is that dictated by hate? You are literally applying the same measure to both - at the end of the day every rational person would agree that if you're looking for an experienced...I dunno, origami folder, you aren't discriminating based on gender, nationality, age, or whatever by not taking on inexperienced ones.

You'll notice that if you quoted my whole post, then your reply doesn't work, because I defined misogyny differently than you did.

I didn't say that misogyny = hate, I said that misogyny = conforms to the view that women are worth less than men.

If you disagree with that, then let's talk about that, but we have to start on the same basis to have a discussion. Make sure you read my whole post, though, as it's a bit different than the norm.

(Not that I'll be active in it, I have to go to bed in a few minutes...)

But its not the belief that "woman are worth less than men" or vice versa because there is not judgment over an entire gender being made. Its the belief that candidate A is more appropriate for this particular job than candidate B.

DementedSheep:

lacktheknack:

DoPo:

...no, no you really aren't. That example is bad and you should feel bad. Only an absolute fanatic can claim that choosing one candidate over another means you hate the other's gender. OK, unless you actually do but let's assume you are a fair person and a decent human being. If you can point and say "Candidate A has 5 years professional experience in our line of work, while candidate B doesn't" or similar, how is that dictated by hate? You are literally applying the same measure to both - at the end of the day every rational person would agree that if you're looking for an experienced...I dunno, origami folder, you aren't discriminating based on gender, nationality, age, or whatever by not taking on inexperienced ones.

You'll notice that if you quoted my whole post, then your reply doesn't work, because I defined misogyny differently than you did.

I didn't say that misogyny = hate, I said that misogyny = conforms to the view that women are worth less than men.

If you disagree with that, then let's talk about that, but we have to start on the same basis to have a discussion. Make sure you read my whole post, though, as it's a bit different than the norm.

(Not that I'll be active in it, I have to go to bed in a few minutes...)

But its not the belief that "woman are worth less than men" or vice versa because there is not judgment over an entire gender being made. Its the belief that candidate A is more appropriate for this particular job than candidate B.

I think you missed the point of my first post.

It DOES "conform to a viewpoint". I assume you think my definition is too broad? How would you rather define it?

Think carefully, because there are issues with limiting the definition to "hates women".

lacktheknack:

DoPo:

lacktheknack:
For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action.

...no, no you really aren't. That example is bad and you should feel bad. Only an absolute fanatic can claim that choosing one candidate over another means you hate the other's gender. OK, unless you actually do but let's assume you are a fair person and a decent human being. If you can point and say "Candidate A has 5 years professional experience in our line of work, while candidate B doesn't" or similar, how is that dictated by hate? You are literally applying the same measure to both - at the end of the day every rational person would agree that if you're looking for an experienced...I dunno, origami folder, you aren't discriminating based on gender, nationality, age, or whatever by not taking on inexperienced ones.

You'll notice that if you quoted my whole post, then your reply doesn't work, because I defined misogyny differently than you did.

I didn't say that misogyny = hate, I said that misogyny = conforms to the view that women are worth less than men.

If you disagree with that, then let's talk about that, but we have to start on the same basis to have a discussion. Make sure you read my whole post, though, as it's a bit different than the norm.

(Not that I'll be active in it, I have to go to bed in a few minutes...)

Well, it matters not, if candidate A has 5 years professional origami folding experience, how does that suggest that every person from candidate B's entire gender is less capable, overall? You're still judging two people on their own merits rather than some larger classification they belong to. Any judgement made is solely for them as a person. You can no more claim that choosing one over the other is motivated by what their gender is than who has the shorter toenails. If candidate A has infrared eye colour while B's eye colour is ultraviolet, does your judgement mean ultraviolet eyes are inferior? If one collects stamps, the other coins, does that mean one hobby inferior is to the other by choosing one candidate?

No. You are, as I said, literally applying the same measure to two people. One that is not dictated by gender, hobby or whatever. Choosing one or the other does not mean anything on a larger scale, anyone who claims otherwise would be saying stupid things.

Magenera:
This is why I find feminism to be as of now a stupid ignorant cause. The markets can be described as three groups. Female dominated, Male dominated, and gender neutral. 50% of gamers are female, does not mean that games will share equal representation. There isn't any sinister force at work, just games are being marketed to different groups, and in this case most of the blockbuster games are male markets.

Of course there isn't any sinister cabal of evil mustache-twirling men going 'WE MUST KEEP THE WOMENFOLK DOWN!' That's not really how the world works.
It's just that the market is hesitant to change, and cultural factors do not change overnight.

Magenera:

Women choosing to buy games that they like or marketed to them is what is happening, just it is not how you would like to see or vision how it would be.

And who is to say that 'hardcore' games just naturally repel women?

Even if we are going to assume (for the sake of an argument) that women just are drawn to different kinds of things in games, something like an open-world sandbox has nothing inherently masculine about it.
So, where are all the games like that that are marketed mainly for women?
Or even something like first person shooters? Platformers?

Magenera:

The fact that this comes up alot and that it seems like no one bother to look, or research this shit is bothersome.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing.

That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

Some_weirdGuy:

Saviordd1:

Come on now everyone, lets not be so critical, this guy looks pretty legit:
image

I say we appoint him as our messiah, and all join together in this new... lets call it a 'brotherhood', in order to usher in the glorious tiberium age and crush all who oppose us.

What do you say? Can I get a Nod of agreement?

Nevaaar, I shall form a cult around Christoph Waltz and appoint him the unviversal leader of the universe and we shall take Nicolas Cage as our champion.

so, ok, maybe a german wanting to appoint an austrian as his leader might not have the best of precedences...

boots:

Are only male gamers allowed to feel entitled now? Is that part of the whole "No girls allowed" rulebook that apparently got handed out when I wasn't looking?

Now, because of the incredibly disturbing "Cage-cat" imagery, I shall have to prepare a snarky response.

*Snark on*
"Oh, so you didn't get the "no girls allowed-rulebook? Well aren't you a girl? Now, this might come as a shock to you, but let me mansplain things for your hormone-fueled girl-brain that is constantly plotting new and devious ways to take videogames away from us hard-working, honest, virtuous, intelligent and of course ruggedly handsome men, using my much superior rational male brain.
If we gave our tactics for keeping girls out of videogames to "the wymenz", wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of creating a plan to keep girls out in the first place?"
*snark off*

BTW: Glad to see you're back, keep it clean etc and don't get yourself banned now.

Ha, that video's ridiculous! Everyone knows that women aren't real.

Lieju:
That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

A question, why or how the hell did Farmville get so popular in the first place if every serious gamers would just laugh at it? While we are onto the topic, who were the biggest consumers of these extra items you can buy ingame?

Why don't stupid people take it as a joke even if the video is written in a very serious manner? I mean it's ridiculously naive to think we are living in a vacuum. In fact, I get that impression from this site, all misogynists are stupid, egotistic and underachieving douches when surely there's a guy like this with the old conservative views. If I'm not mistaken I know one comedian who has that sort of same outlook as that Cane lookalike, and equally as controversial.

Well I may be conservative but I don't necessarily agree with this guy's view. For one thing, his opinion comes off as whiny and very generalising. In the half of video, he seems to be pushing his own agenda with very racially charged speech. He may be displaying himself in a very confident manner and no awkward pause, I found his speech to be very disturbing and misogynistic.

You could write something like that if you consider yourself well-read or highly intelligent but I don't know every time there's a issue about sexism, it's like 90% of them reverted back to primary schoolers with smart-ass responses and casual shit-flinging. And when they don't have much to say, they got to bring up irrelevant images to show they are apathetic. Oh hahaha, sometimes, I feel like this place reminds me of sensational journal articles.

Rednog:

boots:

His performance is fascinating, but the shelf behind him is even more so. Does he really think that owning a human skull makes him more sophisticated? Is that a stuffed possum?

Looks like a fake skull, there doesn't appear to be a separation of the zygomatic process, maxilla looks odd, and the jaw is misshapen.
Also the possum looks like a plushy, possum ears aren't covered in fur and the head looks way too big.

Oh, snap. I thought it looked a bit weird too, though I wouldn't know a maxilla from a zygo-whatever :D
That stuff, along with the attire, is so obviously an affectation it's painful. And that's before he opens his mouth.

OT:

I got to 1:56 and then cracked at "modern women are completely out of control. They have gone completely feral and their behaviour is completely unacceptable in a civilised society"

Someone's had a rough breakup by the sounds of it.

Wrathful:

Lieju:
That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

A question, why or how the hell did Farmville get so popular in the first place if every serious gamers would just laugh at it? While we are onto the topic, who were the biggest consumers of these extra items you can buy ingame?

And?
Games like Farmville reached people who wouldn't be interested in gaming othervise, partly because of what the perception of what a 'gamer' is.

There might be reasons women are more drawn to 'casual' games.
But that doesn't mean women are inherently drawn to the casual aspect of the game.

Or are you claiming women just aren't interested in a story-driven game, or a challenge, or action?

OneCatch :

I got to 1:56 and then cracked at "modern women are completely out of control. They have gone completely feral and their behaviour is completely unacceptable in a civilised society"

Someone's had a rough breakup by the sounds of it.

Maybe we are misunderstanding this, maybe it's not meant to be taken seriously and it's all a part of some sexual kink or something.

I mean, 'Completely feral out-of-control women'?
Where can I find those?

Lieju:

Wrathful:

Lieju:
That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

A question, why or how the hell did Farmville get so popular in the first place if every serious gamers would just laugh at it? While we are onto the topic, who were the biggest consumers of these extra items you can buy ingame?

And?
Games like Farmville reached people who wouldn't be interested in gaming othervise, partly because of what the perception of what a 'gamer' is.

There might be reasons women are more drawn to 'casual' games.
But that doesn't mean women are inherently drawn to the casual aspect of the game.

Or are you claiming women just aren't interested in a story-driven game, or a challenge, or action?

Most women doesn't really get encouraged to play games because there still is a social stigma around it and those prepuberscent boys screaming derogatory remarks doesn't help either. Every time people says in the western region there are 50% of girl gamers, you know they are lying because most of them are either playing casual games or playing hardcore games with male friends. I'm willing to believe in Japan, there are significantly more number of serious female gamers as there is already an evidence of popularity of DS in Japan. At least even from the 90's there were more women in Japan working hands-on in the game industry and not sales and reception.

And I'm saying those gamers introduced to Farmville will probably find interest in other casual games and major Triple A titles played by their boyfriends. And they are the same group reacting angrily to every sexist images they come across. Why do you think there has never been so much issues over depiction of girls in Duke Nukem or Heavy Rain the Rape scenario? Or maybe I'm insinuating Triple A titles can get away with their view of sexism and swept under a rug while lesser titles aren't so lucky. Has to get dragged across the dirt, huh?

Lieju:

OneCatch :

I got to 1:56 and then cracked at "modern women are completely out of control. They have gone completely feral and their behaviour is completely unacceptable in a civilised society"

Someone's had a rough breakup by the sounds of it.

Maybe we are misunderstanding this, maybe it's not meant to be taken seriously and it's all a part of some sexual kink or something.

I mean, 'Completely feral out-of-control women'?
Where can I find those?

Haven't you been watching? They're EVERYWHERE!

A kink could explain things though.
Especially since the guy is so far up his own arse he's disappeared - like some kind of horrific and perverse bastardisation of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

lacktheknack:

OT: A misogynist is anyone, man or woman, who is in a state of believing women to be inferior to men.

Misogyny is an attribute of any action, artistic expression, etc, that conforms to the mentality that women are inferior to men.

It's possible to perform misogynistic actions without being a misogynist.

For example, if you are trying to hire one person, and you receive an application from a man and a woman, then by hiring one, you are doomed to perform a misogynist or misandric action. Even if you select the male candidate because he has more experience and schooling, your selecting him was a misogynistic action, because it fits the mindset that women are worth less than men.

I'm not sure I get the point your trying to make there so I'm going to argue with what I percieve your point to be.

You are hiring for a job and have two applicants, a man and a woman. You select the candidate with the most relavent experience and education for the job.
I don't understand what that has to do with misogyny. That decision isn't based in the idea that men are inherintly better than women but that the particular applicant was more qualified for the position.

An example of misogyny would be:
You are hiring for a job and have two applicants, a man and a woman. Both are qualified for the position but you hire the man because you believe that the woman will not perform as well at the job as the man due to her gender.

The first example completely trivialises the actual issue of misogyny in the workplace and in the hiring process.

Guitarmasterx7:

How are they being punished by games that aren't for them existing? All joking aside, I am not "punished" by Twilight not appealing to me. There's a market for it and I'm not it. That doesn't mean movies aren't for me, it means Twilight isn't for me, and Twilight has every right to exist even though I wouldn't like watching it. Twilight is to movies as dead or alive or dragon's crown is to videogames.

You would have a point if basically every single movie out there was like Twilight and was made to appeal to idiotic twittering tween girls, and then when guys complained about there being no movies around to appeal to their interest they got shouted down and told, "YOU don't get to make demands about what movies are being made because film is a No Boys Allowed Club so get out."

But that isn't the case and so your analogy doesn't work. Moving on.

The thing about high school was less about my personal experience and more about the general attitude towards videogames predating the mid-late 2000s. It created the environment that allowed dead or alive to get all the way to 8 or whatever it's at. Which is fine. My point is that everything doesn't have to be for everyone. If you're not there, nobody is going to make things for you. So when you show up late and then get angry when people make things that aren't for you it's like "well yeah, you weren't here so we made something that wasn't for you and people liked it so we're making more."

OK, so apparently due to some leftover bitterness about people being mean to you for playing video games or some such nonsense, you are labouring under the impression that no girls ever played video games until a few years ago, which is absolute bullshit. Do you have any idea how incredibly insulting and pathetic it is to talk about all female gamers as though they only showed up five minutes ago and are suddenly "making demands"? There are female gamers on here who were playing video games years before you were even conceived, so maybe you could take a break from telling them that they "showed up late".

Your point isn't just ignorant, it's also hilariously misguided. You're basically saying that video game publishers should continue to only ever market towards their consumer demographic as it was in 1995, rather than targeting their games towards the kind of consumers that are buying games in 2013, because of ... um ... moral reasons? Loyalty to the fans who "got there first" (according to you)? Do consumers' dollars only start to count when they've been buying games for a certain amount of time? I'd be fascinated to hear the business model you have in mind.

You're mistaking me saying "this is why things are that way" for me saying I think things should be a certain way. It's nice when everyone can enjoy a game. I played through both borderlands, portal 2, and saints row with my girlfriend. I just think there's a place for games for guys, or girls, or kids, or adults too. I think its great that girls aren't weirded out by videogames anymore and I would like to see more games that everyone can enjoy. I also like all the blood and titties in god of war and the attitude that it has to be one or the other bothers me.

Feel free to take any of that out of context and put words in my mouth. I'm done.

So you think there's "a place" for games for girls (presumably that place is far enough away that they won't pass on their cooties), but you don't think that girls should be allowed to demand games that are marketed towards them, and you can't conceive of the idea that games could be made to appeal to both guys and girls? You know what, in your very own sulky words, "I'm done."

I think that what this comes down to is that you made an incredibly dumb post and are frantically trying to duck away and backpedal from it, culminating in you flouncing off in a tantrum when I persisted in calling you on your bullshit. As a female gamer who has probably been playing games much longer than you have, I guess I feel confident in saying that it's pretty insulting of you to suddenly show up and start talking about what you want to see in God of War games. You don't have the right to do that. You just haven't been playing video games for long enough.

Catrixa:
Huh. A dude met some bitchy women, then made a YouTube video on it, eh? Seems like a thing. You know, I've met some asshole men, too. I guess I can copy-paste my experience onto all men (except specific ones I like, because they are OK, obviously) and rant about it on YouTube for 15 minutes. I'm pretty sure I can find some sources no one has heard about and claim they're credible, too. And anything is a fact if you say "This is a FACT!" after it three times (it can't be any less, or people might question you). Also, it looks like all propaganda is true again. This is good to know, because coming up with opinions (wait, crap, these aren't opinions, these are facts, my bad) is easy when I don't have to think about them. Huh. How many viewers does this guy have? I think I've got a camera around here somewhere...

This made me smile =)

OT: it took me a good 3 minutes to realize this isn't satire......
I mean the skull in the background , the armchair, the smoking ...... all this was missing is a bear skin rug.

anyway this should be required viewing for anyone who even thinks of talking to this guy ... Christ.......

(Or maybe this is just a brilliant piece of viral marketing for a new command and conquer game )

boots:
You would have a point if basically every single movie out there was like Twilight and was made to appeal to idiotic twittering tween girls

No, no, no - "Twilight is for twittering tween twerps". Alliteration! :D

Zoe Castillo:
I mean the skull in the background , the armchair, the smoking ...... all this was missing is a bear skin rug.

The camera doesn't pan down. THE CAMERA DOESN'T PAN DOWN! I think we're doomed.

PeterMerkin69:
Misogyny is hatred of women, male chauvinism is the perspective that men are inherently better than women. Better at what? I have no idea.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Every single sport/physical activity (if that wasn't the most obvious one), majority of construction/engineering jobs, pretty much all extreme occupations (high-rise window cleaners, anyone?), all army/military operations, etc. Just to name a few :D

The best part is I can say all the above without being a chauvinist/misogynist, just like a mathematician can state "1+1=2" without people calling him a racist, sexist or something else that makes no sense.

boots:

Guitarmasterx7:

How are they being punished by games that aren't for them existing? All joking aside, I am not "punished" by Twilight not appealing to me. There's a market for it and I'm not it. That doesn't mean movies aren't for me, it means Twilight isn't for me, and Twilight has every right to exist even though I wouldn't like watching it. Twilight is to movies as dead or alive or dragon's crown is to videogames.

You would have a point if basically every single movie out there was like Twilight and was made to appeal to idiotic twittering tween girls, and then when guys complained about there being no movies around to appeal to their interest they got shouted down and told, "YOU don't get to make demands about what movies are being made because film is a No Boys Allowed Club so get out."

But that isn't the case and so your analogy doesn't work. Moving on.

The thing about high school was less about my personal experience and more about the general attitude towards videogames predating the mid-late 2000s. It created the environment that allowed dead or alive to get all the way to 8 or whatever it's at. Which is fine. My point is that everything doesn't have to be for everyone. If you're not there, nobody is going to make things for you. So when you show up late and then get angry when people make things that aren't for you it's like "well yeah, you weren't here so we made something that wasn't for you and people liked it so we're making more."

OK, so apparently due to some leftover bitterness about people being mean to you for playing video games or some such nonsense, you are labouring under the impression that no girls ever played video games until a few years ago, which is absolute bullshit. Do you have any idea how incredibly insulting and pathetic it is to talk about all female gamers as though they only showed up five minutes ago and are suddenly "making demands"? There are female gamers on here who were playing video games years before you were even conceived, so maybe you could take a break from telling them that they "showed up late".

Your point isn't just ignorant, it's also hilariously misguided. You're basically saying that video game publishers should continue to only ever market towards their consumer demographic as it was in 1995, rather than targeting their games towards the kind of consumers that are buying games in 2013, because of ... um ... moral reasons? Loyalty to the fans who "got there first" (according to you)? Do consumers' dollars only start to count when they've been buying games for a certain amount of time? I'd be fascinated to hear the business model you have in mind.

You're mistaking me saying "this is why things are that way" for me saying I think things should be a certain way. It's nice when everyone can enjoy a game. I played through both borderlands, portal 2, and saints row with my girlfriend. I just think there's a place for games for guys, or girls, or kids, or adults too. I think its great that girls aren't weirded out by videogames anymore and I would like to see more games that everyone can enjoy. I also like all the blood and titties in god of war and the attitude that it has to be one or the other bothers me.

Feel free to take any of that out of context and put words in my mouth. I'm done.

So you think there's "a place" for games for girls (presumably that place is far enough away that they won't pass on their cooties), but you don't think that girls should be allowed to demand games that are marketed towards them, and you can't conceive of the idea that games could be made to appeal to both guys and girls? You know what, in your very own sulky words, "I'm done."

I think that what this comes down to is that you made an incredibly dumb post and are frantically trying to duck away and backpedal from it, culminating in you flouncing off in a tantrum when I persisted in calling you on your bullshit. As a female gamer who has probably been playing games much longer than you have, I guess I feel confident in saying that it's pretty insulting of you to suddenly show up and start talking about what you want to see in God of War games. You don't have the right to do that. You just haven't been playing video games for long enough.

I have a question though, if the market for female-oriented games was really that big then why didn't it take off a long time ago and why didn't we see a huge shift in females joining game development? See, you said that every single game out there is aimed at men (i.e. your Twilight quote). But if you feel that is the case, why is it the case? Why did it come to that in the first place, why don't we see a 50/50 split?
I'm sensing an underlying message that all game companies are simply stupid, all publishers are stupid and none of these guys have any clue what to do with their massive budgets. But somehow they're still making a ton of profit despite apparently ignoring an entire gender. How and why do you feel this came to be, and why is has it been so incredibly effective at making the game industry one of the biggest in the world today?
Just a few questions for you :)

Wrathful:

Lieju:

Wrathful:
A question, why or how the hell did Farmville get so popular in the first place if every serious gamers would just laugh at it? While we are onto the topic, who were the biggest consumers of these extra items you can buy ingame?

And?
Games like Farmville reached people who wouldn't be interested in gaming othervise, partly because of what the perception of what a 'gamer' is.

There might be reasons women are more drawn to 'casual' games.
But that doesn't mean women are inherently drawn to the casual aspect of the game.

Or are you claiming women just aren't interested in a story-driven game, or a challenge, or action?

Most women doesn't really get encouraged to play games because there still is a social stigma around it and those prepuberscent boys screaming derogatory remarks doesn't help either. Every time people says in the western region there are 50% of girl gamers, you know they are lying because most of them are either playing casual games or playing hardcore games with male friends.

You are getting on the question about the definition of a 'gamer', now.
I mean, I have seen people argue that Yahtzee isn't a 'gamer' because he doesn't play fighting games or RTS's.
You are not only defining females as 'not proper gamers' if they play 'casual' games, but also if they play them with male friends?

I know guys who only play games with their friends, I guess they aren't real gamers?

I'm not sure what the actual statistics are, (although a lot depends on your definition) but the fact remains that 50% consumers are female, and if a lot of those don't buy games, it makes sense from a purely financial standpoint to try get them to buy your product.

Wrathful:

I'm willing to believe in Japan, there are significantly more number of serious female gamers as there is already an evidence of popularity of DS in Japan.

I'm not following your logic here.
Are you saying mainly women play DS in Japan? Because I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Wrathful:

At least even from the 90's there were more women in Japan working hands-on in the game industry and not sales and reception.

Source, please.

Wrathful:

And I'm saying those gamers introduced to Farmville will probably find interest in other casual games and major Triple A titles played by their boyfriends. And they are the same group reacting angrily to every sexist images they come across.

On what do you base this claim? And what point are you trying to make?

Wrathful:

Why do you think there has never been so much issues over depiction of girls in Duke Nukem or Heavy Rain the Rape scenario? Or maybe I'm insinuating Triple A titles can get away with their view of sexism and swept under a rug while lesser titles aren't so lucky. Has to get dragged across the dirt, huh?

Um, what?
Games like Tomb Raider aren't Triple-A now?

Guitarmasterx7:

Lionsfan:

Do you have any evidence that the sort of stuff he talks about is more prevalent now, than it has been in the past?

As far as the game aspect, what do you mean "expecting game devs to cater to them"? Again, do you have any evidence?

I wouldn't say I've necessarily seen any huge rise in it, more that I've seen a lot of the things in spades. I mean it's not like I took photo documentation of how many girls I slept with when I tried to win them over by listening to them and buying them drinks vs how many I did once I learned that acting like they're barely worth it works way better, or how many of my totally whipped friends got treated like shit and then dumped. I'm not a sociologist and I don't care enough about forum debates to catalog those kinds of things. Sorry. I'm just speaking from genuine experience. If you want, you can look up some youtube videos of women giving legitimate dating advice and you'll generally see the tone of it is either "man, do more" or "woman, expect less," both of which operate on the assumption that the man should be the one jumping through the hoops to impress the woman.

But again, this is a prevalent trend, not a definite rule.

I'm sorry, but that's really not good enough. I mean, the definitions for prevalent and trend is

1: Widespread in a particular area at a particular time.
2: Predominant; powerful.

][

1: A general direction in which something is developing or changing.

So, what you're saying is that the majority of women, and more and more everyday, are turning into these horrible fantasy creatures the video guy was describing. Quite frankly that's incredibly offensive.

You can agree with him if you want, but I think we're gonna need more than just personal anecdotes from a few people before we start agreeing with this guy.

As for the second part I mean, the dragon's crown debacle, hitman's bondage nuns, the huge amount of support drawn for Anita Sarkeesian's "tropes vs women in videogames," there's definitely a large group of women that feel some sense of entitlement to being catered to, or at very least feel disrespected when they aren't being catered to.

And don't get me wrong, this guy is probably just an angry little gnome that can't get laid. He's definitely biased and overgeneralizing. I'm just saying he's not completely inaccurate.

I feel like you're mistaking "wanting to be treated the same as other consumers" for entitlement.

I mean, is it really wrong that girl gamers want to be treated as equals to male gamers? Not to get all cliched and bring up race, but was it entitlement when black people didn't want blackface to be used in movies?

And really, with all the controversies about the ME3 ending, or Dante being changed in DMC, or the increase in piracy, you think girl gamers are being entitled?

Aaron Sylvester:

PeterMerkin69:
Misogyny is hatred of women, male chauvinism is the perspective that men are inherently better than women. Better at what? I have no idea.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one! Every single sport/physical activity (if that wasn't the most obvious one), majority of construction/engineering jobs, pretty much all extreme occupations (high-rise window cleaners, anyone?), all army/military operations, etc. Just to name a few :D

The best part is I can say all the above without being a chauvinist/misogynist, just like a mathematician can state "1+1=2" without people calling him a racist, sexist or something else that makes no sense.

The only one that's objectively quantifiable is sports. Everything else is just your subjective opinion

Aaron Sylvester:
snip

Oh hi derr passive-aggressive smiley.

The answer to every single one of those questions is "because the video game industry is vastly dominated by men making games that they think men want to play". I'm not denying that the number of female gamers has increased over time, but I find GuitarMasterx7's insistence that video games shouldn't change to accommodate shifts in its consumer demographic because female gamers don't have the right (???) to start "making demands" to be absurd. The fact is, the video game market already has started changing, albeit creakily and reluctantly, to accommodate the growing female demographic, and other growing demographics.

Do you know think it's just coincidence that games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age and Skyrim, which allow you to play as a female character or a gay character, make stupid amounts of money, while DOA5 didn't even make it into the top 100 best-selling games of 2012? Do you think that games like the Tomb Raider reboot or Remember Me would have had a snowball's chance in hell of being released fifteen years ago?

Your faulty assumption is that because video games currently make money, their marketing strategies couldn't possibly be improved to attract wider audiences and make more money (incidentally, reports suggest that less people are actually playing video games, so it looks like the current strategies aren't working as well as you think). You also seem to assume that video game publishers must adore the idea of evolving and taking risks and would jump at the opportunity to do so as soon as they saw their target demographics changing, rather than dithering around and sticking to what they think is safe because it's worked in the past. If I have too little faith in game publishers, then you're giving them way too much credit.

Man, I should have known that this endurance thread would eventually turn into a "well, the Bond villain with the skull on his shelf does have a point" thread, just as soon as the right Escapists showed up.

aba1:

I was watching a few related videos out of curiosity and I thought this video hit some interesting points.

"Women can't hear what men haven't said." As much I support the hell out of this sentiment, I feel like a big problem is that men don't know how to articulate their side of things - see the "men's movement" and all their hate-mongering.

Lieju:

Magenera:
This is why I find feminism to be as of now a stupid ignorant cause. The markets can be described as three groups. Female dominated, Male dominated, and gender neutral. 50% of gamers are female, does not mean that games will share equal representation. There isn't any sinister force at work, just games are being marketed to different groups, and in this case most of the blockbuster games are male markets.

Of course there isn't any sinister cabal of evil mustache-twirling men going 'WE MUST KEEP THE WOMENFOLK DOWN!' That's not really how the world works.
It's just that the market is hesitant to change, and cultural factors do not change overnight.

Magenera:

Women choosing to buy games that they like or marketed to them is what is happening, just it is not how you would like to see or vision how it would be.

And who is to say that 'hardcore' games just naturally repel women?

Even if we are going to assume (for the sake of an argument) that women just are drawn to different kinds of things in games, something like an open-world sandbox has nothing inherently masculine about it.
So, where are all the games like that that are marketed mainly for women?
Or even something like first person shooters? Platformers?

Magenera:

The fact that this comes up alot and that it seems like no one bother to look, or research this shit is bothersome.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing.

That having a vagina makes you inherently a 'casual' gamer?

The market isn't hesitant to change, they know where the female market resides, they know where the gender neutral market resides, and they sure as hell know where the male market resides. The whole wiiFit, dance dance game, DS pet games, marketed towards women. That is the problem with you people, you have a view that doesn't fit in reality and rather than admit you were wrong and change it, you people turn around and say sexism, misogyny, or in your case I never see the games being marketed towards them. That one is easier to understand, most of the shit is easy to understand why no one knows that there is a female market in videogames, because most of it is shovelware, so it is easy to block out.

As you pointed out, most vagina's play's towards the "casual" gaming market. In fact that is where most of the female gamer's, and the market for female gamer's reside in.
Some examples: :D
image
image
image
imagehttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkHuxlfSvwx137E34ZPV6IBgG4sraor3aRfH6s7rYz6dWjn3-F[/img]
image

Most of this shit is easy to ignore and block out of your mind. Sometimes people don't pay attention towards the commercial's when advertising video-games. Now go cry about sexism because the female gaming market resembles just about every other female market entertainment, like every other male gaming market resembles the male market of other entertainment avenue.

Magenera:

As you pointed out, most vagina's play's towards the "casual" gaming market. In fact that is where most of the female gamer's, and the market for female gamer's reside in.
Some examples: :D

I would rather stab myself in the eye with a rusty spork than play any of those games, mainly because apart from the Wii Fit they aren't marketed towards women, they're marketed towards little girls. Children. Show me a few examples of games marketed towards middle-aged women (who, incidentally, represent a larger portion of the gaming demographic than teenage boys) and then we'll talk.

boots:

Magenera:

As you pointed out, most vagina's play's towards the "casual" gaming market. In fact that is where most of the female gamer's, and the market for female gamer's reside in.
Some examples: :D

I would rather stab myself in the eye with a rusty spork than play any of those games,

Clearly your vagina is malfunctioning and sending signals to your brain telling you you actually want to play games.

This is unnatural and wrong for womenfolk.

Seriously, though, even if we assume (for the sake of this silly argument) that women will just inherently flock towards games about fashion and raising babies, why would those games need to be shovelware?

You could very easily fit those themes into a complex gameplay and narrative.

Lionsfan:

I mean, is it really wrong that girl gamers want to be treated as equals to male gamers? Not to get all cliched and bring up race, but was it entitlement when black people didn't want blackface to be used in movies?

It depends on the line of argument used. I see so many different or contradictory concerns that it really isn't possible to use the term "girl gamers" when it comes to discussing changes.

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.
2) Some people are unhappy with there being too many "sexy" female characters, but not enough "non-sexy" female characters (The Triple A gaming market in general).
3)Some people are unhappy with "sexy" female characters, but only when they are nothing else (Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2).
4) Some people are unhappy with some "sexy" female characters being in a game, but only if there is not a variety of other types of women in the game as well.

Issues 2,3 and 4 I'd say are perfectly valid concerns, but I would say point number 1 does come from a false sense of entitlement. As it normally comes from the line of argument that sexualising women in any shape or form is automatically bad.

That women don't like it, despite the fact that many women are perfectly okay with it. As is seen by the fact that there are so many cosplays of these characters and the voice actresses are clearly happily to be associated with a game that has them.

The kind of people who oppose "sexy" women games entirely are not all that common, but sometimes the arguments seem to bleed together, or people contradict themselves, which is where arguments quite often start.

Legion:

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.

Are they really, or are you just strawmanning/misinterpreting? Because I hear this cry of "oh, people are saying that female characters should never, ever allowed to be sexy in video games" all the time, but I've never actually been able to find these people or these demands that there shouldn't ever be any sexy female characters in video games. Not once. Feel free to point me in the direction of people who are actually saying this, but until then I'm going to assume that it's just an oversimplification or deliberate exaggeration of what Type 2/3/4 people are saying.

boots:

Legion:

1) Some people are unhappy with there being "sexy" female characters at all.

Are they really, or are you just strawmanning/misinterpreting? Because I hear this cry of "oh, people are saying that female characters should never, ever allowed to be sexy in video games" all the time, but I've never actually been able to find these people or these demands that there shouldn't ever be any sexy female characters in video games. Not once. Feel free to point me in the direction of people who are actually saying this, but until then I'm going to assume that it's just an oversimplification or deliberate exaggeration of what Type 2/3/4 people are saying.

Note: I did not say they demanded they don't exist, I said they are unhappy with them. So actually, your reply could be considered a strawman, effectively as you are "attacking" a statement I never said. Although I am not going to make accusations as I am pretty sick of people using buzzwords as counter-arguments.

The accusations of Skullgirls being sexist is an example of it. The characters are "sexy". They are also quite horrifying when it comes down to it, they also have back-stories, motivation, agency and are strong and capable.

If somebody were to complain that they are too sexualised, I'd say fair enough, even though it doesn't bother me personally, if somebody didn't want to play the game as they prefer not to play games with "sexy" female characters, I'd say fair enough, as people have the right to not play whatever they like.

But to complain that the game itself is sexist because of it, strikes me as an example of my first point. As the characters have agency, personalities, motivations and a lot more than just being "T+A".

As I said in my last paragraph, peoples arguments bleed together. Some people complain that it's yet another example of a game using sex sells and that's the issue (which again, is fair enough), some people argue against the game itself.

One particular user who goes into every thread about the subject, purely to complain about it would be my example.

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