Eldar 6th edition release in a week

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Megalodon:

Timedraven 117:

Megalodon:

The Dreadknight baby-carrier is stupid, but in the Riptide's defence, they have armoured the cockpit, the pilots in Tau suits are curled up in the torso, the "head" is just a sensor suite to make the model not look stupid.

Oh i see. That makes MUCH more sense then. Snipers though, need a bit more power to them. Maybe they kill a crew member in the thing through a vision slit? Maybe all my rambling is pointless?

They did get a buff this edition, being able to make precision shots on 6s, where the sniper gets to allocate the wound to whoever he likes. Plus the rending is nice.

2nd edition had rules for killing indivdual vehicle crew, and like a lot of 2nd, it was rather long-winded and unsuited for a game the scale of 40k, adding to the really slow nature of 2nd ed games.

Thats what I thought, and why i said earlier that my idea would have been kicked just on streaming issues alone.

theultimateend:

I would love to get into Warhammer but the cost has always kept me away sadly.

Don't get me wrong, the hobby isn't exactly cheap. On the other hand, it does offer pretty good value in time vs money spent. Say a box like this costing 23.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440177a&prodId=prod260003a&rootCatGameStyle=

Now that's a couple of hours to assemble the figures, then painting each one takes a good few hours too. So you're looking at probably at least 20-30 hours spent assembling, painting and basing them. Then putting a time on gaming with them is much harder. But contrast that to games where a new 40 game will generally take 8-16 hours to beat.

Again not saying it's cheap, but realistically it's a hobby not massively worse than most.

Zykon TheLich:

Megalodon:

Stupid bloody thing. If they wanted to do a bigass robot, call that new kit the new Wraithlord. There doesn't need to be a bigger wraith construct than the Wraithlord, that was the Wraithlord's schtick. I don't want to see Wraithlord's forced out by the new shiny that steals its role (I know wraithlords will still be in the codex, but if the Wraih Knight's any good, they'll probably make Wraithlords not worth taking).[quote="Timedraven 117" post="18.408807.17088307"]

To be fair on them, there is a "historical" precedent for bigass robot type units called knights, they do exist in the 40K universe.

True, and if a they did a kit for one of them (especially if Forge World did it), I'd have a "shut up and take my money" moment, my beef with the Wraith Knight is purely that is seems like it's trying to make the Wraithlord redundant. The codex may prove me wrong, and I hope it does, but that's my objection in my current ignorance.

Bertylicious:

VeneratedWulfen93:
No they looked at the Dreadknight as the standard for stupid and brought us the.....(Drumroll)
image
The Tau XV-104 Riptide.

Alright, that looks pretty bad ass.

I just don't like the chicken legs. I heard that wraithguard are finally plastic, and with a price reduction (yes, you heard that right, lower price than current for 5 wraithguard).

Megalodon:

Adeptus Aspartem:
Tau were shit, Eldar will be too.

So what was bad about the Tau book? Bullshit fluff aside, the crunch looked pretty solid.

The Taubook didn't work in 5th, and does not in 6th. The main problem, decent troops, still remain. Things that needed change didn't get any. It was mostly shuffling some numbers around but besides the Riptide it's the same friggin codex as before without S10 guns on the XV88.
Which means: Tau is still a solid ally, but a bad choice for a main force.
Alot of people were already aware this was going to happen, since the ally chart made the Tau the whores of the universe with 12 or so allies.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if their not playable, they were my main army a long time, but for a tournament play their performance is to unstable to be considered anything but mediocre. Sadly, it remains the 2nd strongest Xenos codex (3rd if we count Chaos as Xenos and not as evil Imperials).

tl;dr => Codex changed numbers around, unplayable units still unplayable, bad troops not fixed

Adeptus Aspartem:
6th edition is a horrible rule set. Fliers are shoehorned in, the alliance table is neither balanced nor does it make any sense fluffwise.
Everything got random, everything got "cinematic". All that's left is a terrible beer&pretzles boardgame.

Also they tried to shift everything to foot unit, so they can sell their infantry in 6th after they've sold their Rhinos in 5th.

While many of the 6th changes (flyers, allies, random shit, wound allocation) are BS, the game doesn't play too much differently form 5th. The new rules have made infantry focused armies viable against after multiple editions of mechainsed dominance, why is that such a travesty?

See THAT is the main problem. The rules are totally bullshit, but we GW costumers are used to such treatment, so we don't even care anymore. The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design.

Fliers are broken and alot of them got nerfed by FAQ errata after they've sold a bunch. It's the usual GW thing: Bring something new, make it broken, FAQ nerf it after it sold.

Fun part: Mech/Semi-Mech is still stronger than pure foot lists. Also the forced shift onto foot hurt Xenos more than any other. 5+ cover for Xenos matters, Marines never used cover anyway.

PS: Actually wound allocation actually got better, imo. Sped things up alot.
PPS: Out local tournaments still look the same: Imps/GK's plow through everything. You won't stop crazy ass lists with 15-20 vehicles and 50-70 troops with the other codizes. Specially not with Xenos ones.

And to everyone who wants to start with Miniature Gaming: Don't.
Currently the whole industry is on a decline since years. The costs are gettin' crazier than ever, and there's nothing besides some fun matches. Most tournaments are shit and the most companies don't support their own game very well - at least not compared to E-Sports, MTG or even Boardgames like Dominion/Settlers of Catan.
Also 3D-Printers are on their way and few miniature players already started producing their minis themselves because it's cheaper.

Unless Hasbro/Wizards buys one of those trainwrecks and revives the genre i'd bet miniature gaming dies in few year. My last hope is currently the Shadowrun miniature game that's in the making, since the designers they got on board are crazy: Gregory Marques, Mike Elliot and James Lin 3 MTG R&D fellas. Rob Heinsoo and Rob Watkins designers from D&D 3.5/4 Edition and Conan Chamberlain who worked on over 50 diffrent projects with Vivendi, EA, Disney and more.
If that game fails too, the genre will die out.

Adeptus Aspartem:

Megalodon:

Adeptus Aspartem:
Tau were shit, Eldar will be too.

So what was bad about the Tau book? Bullshit fluff aside, the crunch looked pretty solid.

The Taubook didn't work in 5th, and does not in 6th. The main problem, decent troops, still remain. Things that needed change didn't get any. It was mostly shuffling some numbers around but besides the Riptide it's the same friggin codex as before without S10 guns on the XV88.
Which means: Tau is still a solid ally, but a bad choice for a main force.
Alot of people were already aware this was going to happen, since the ally chart made the Tau the whores of the universe with 12 or so allies.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if their not playable, they were my main army a long time, but for a tournament play their performance is to unstable to be considered anything but mediocre. Sadly, it remains the 2nd strongest Xenos codex (3rd if we count Chaos as Xenos and not as evil Imperials).

tl;dr => Codex changed numbers around, unplayable units still unplayable, bad troops not fixed

Adeptus Aspartem:
6th edition is a horrible rule set. Fliers are shoehorned in, the alliance table is neither balanced nor does it make any sense fluffwise.
Everything got random, everything got "cinematic". All that's left is a terrible beer&pretzles boardgame.

Also they tried to shift everything to foot unit, so they can sell their infantry in 6th after they've sold their Rhinos in 5th.

While many of the 6th changes (flyers, allies, random shit, wound allocation) are BS, the game doesn't play too much differently form 5th. The new rules have made infantry focused armies viable against after multiple editions of mechainsed dominance, why is that such a travesty?

See THAT is the main problem. The rules are totally bullshit, but we GW costumers are used to such treatment, so we don't even care anymore. The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design.

Fliers are broken and alot of them got nerfed by FAQ errata after they've sold a bunch. It's the usual GW thing: Bring something new, make it broken, FAQ nerf it after it sold.

Fun part: Mech/Semi-Mech is still stronger than pure foot lists. Also the forced shift onto foot hurt Xenos more than any other. 5+ cover for Xenos matters, Marines never used cover anyway.

PS: Actually wound allocation actually got better, imo. Sped things up alot.
PPS: Out local tournaments still look the same: Imps/GK's plow through everything. You won't stop crazy ass lists with 15-20 vehicles and 50-70 troops with the other codizes. Specially not with Xenos ones.

And to everyone who wants to start with Miniature Gaming: Don't.
Currently the whole industry is on a decline since years. The costs are gettin' crazier than ever, and there's nothing besides some fun matches. Most tournaments are shit and the most companies don't support their own game very well - at least not compared to E-Sports, MTG or even Boardgames like Dominion/Settlers of Catan.
Also 3D-Printers are on their way and few miniature players already started producing their minis themselves because it's cheaper.

Unless Hasbro/Wizards buys one of those trainwrecks and revives the genre i'd bet miniature gaming dies in few year. My last hope is currently the Shadowrun miniature game that's in the making, since the designers they got on board are crazy: Gregory Marques, Mike Elliot and James Lin 3 MTG R&D fellas. Rob Heinsoo and Rob Watkins designers from D&D 3.5/4 Edition and Conan Chamberlain who worked on over 50 diffrent projects with Vivendi, EA, Disney and more.
If that game fails too, the genre will die out.

As a man who predominantly played 2nd ed I can tell you that it was flawed. Vehicles were too tough, vehicle cards like ablative armour just made them ridiculously difficult without some daffy response like a warlock on a jetbike with a vortex grenade or some other nonsense.

I do wonder whether 3rd ed, which seems to have become the template, threw the baby out with the bathwater though.

I dunno. Maybe not (bit drunk). Perhaps they were right? I mean, shouldn't 40k be about squads? Not big hench dudes lathering the shite out of each other or gorblin champions with that fecking magic item that swaps toughness & weaponskill or other "combination tactics" but rather a contest of mobility and raw power.

The cost of the hobby has always been a concern to me though. It's like taking heroin but you don't get to have sex with Lindsay Lohan. Then again it is a collectible hobby, with the side effect that you have to paint your minitures and therefore render them worthless. Which is awful and has always been awful.

God, Games Workshop are fully evil. Like Hitler or one of them fellas.

Fucking fun though.

Am I wrong? Has 40k actually always just been about buying the new thing with the new Special Rules?

Bertylicious:
What's changed since then?

No more Fish of Fury.

Bertylicious:
As a man who predominantly played 2nd ed I can tell you that it was flawed. Vehicles were too tough, vehicle cards like ablative armour just made them ridiculously difficult without some daffy response like a warlock on a jetbike with a vortex grenade or some other nonsense.

I do wonder whether 3rd ed, which seems to have become the template, threw the baby out with the bathwater though.

I dunno. Maybe not (bit drunk). Perhaps they were right? I mean, shouldn't 40k be about squads? Not big hench dudes lathering the shite out of each other or gorblin champions with that fecking magic item that swaps toughness & weaponskill or other "combination tactics" but rather a contest of mobility and raw power.

The cost of the hobby has always been a concern to me though. It's like taking heroin but you don't get to have sex with Lindsay Lohan. Then again it is a collectible hobby, with the side effect that you have to paint your minitures and therefore render them worthless. Which is awful and has always been awful.

God, Games Workshop are fully evil. Like Hitler or one of them fellas.

Fucking fun though.

Am I wrong? Has 40k actually always just been about buying the new thing with the new Special Rules?

3rd was meh. 4th was horrible and nearly killed 40k. Then came the 5th edition and yes, vehicles were dominant but it was kinda balanced and the games meaningful and fun to play.
6th edition ended up at "Lets throw a few hundred dice per turn so nobody feels like a loser". Nothing matters anymore, you just slam 200-250 models at each other (at 2k) and call it a day. Skill got removed, randomness is the deal.

Gw stated it over and over: Their hobby is painting and modeling. The gaming side is just a byproduct. That's also why they dropped all tournament support at the end of the 4th edition.

If i could i'd switch back to 5th immediatly.

Eh, I was always more of a fan of the fluff than the game. I still think the fluff was better late 2nd/early 3rd ed.

The Tau were a bad idea, they changed too many basics about the universe, and there was too much fuss made about them. The Dark Eldar, those worked. They'd never really exist before 3rd, just a few vague references, but they fitted with the universe and slotted in well, didn't dominate.

The C'tan weren't bad as such, but they were god-awful in context. If your setting revolves round all powerful sun eating gods from zillions of years ago that various people have been in fear of ever since, you need to introduce them in the beginning. All of a sudden sticking them in a few years later is a rubbish idea. They got toned down later on, though, which was fine, only they got lathered with suck just like everything else.

Modern fluff tends to be awful. It's like your favourite TV or movie franchise from the 80's being brought back for cheap cash-in movies with the barest resemblance to the original.

Bertylicious:
As a man who predominantly played 2nd ed I can tell you that it was flawed. Vehicles were too tough, vehicle cards like ablative armour just made them ridiculously difficult without some daffy response like a warlock on a jetbike with a vortex grenade or some other nonsense.

Except in that case you could always buy a vortex detonator for 50 pts.

Bertylicious:
The cost of the hobby has always been a concern to me though. It's like taking heroin but you don't get to have sex with Lindsay Lohan.

Then again it is a collectible hobby, with the side effect that you have to paint your minitures and therefore render them worthless. Which is awful and has always been awful.

Am I wrong? Has 40k actually always just been about buying the new thing with the new Special Rules?

Nope, it really, really isn't.

Depends on the mini. Not that I'd sell them but a lot of the old rogue trader stuff is worth more than I paid for it as a kid, painted or not. Even if it's not worth more I'll get what it cost me, although inflation will obviously change the relative value. Otherwise you're still going to get between 30-80% back on ebay, again depending on the demand for the models in question and the quality of paint job, if any.

Only since about 1993.

Zykon TheLich:
My neighbour is probably going to get it as he usually plays space drow and has a few standard pointy ears for allies. I however, recently got the 1st Horus Heresy book from forge world and a bunch of their new Mechanicus Thallax units, so that ate up my 40K budget for the next 6 months.

Ooooh Horus Rising! "I was there the day that Horus killed the Emperor." I love that book!

I checked out the Thallax units when I last went on Forge World to just look at Lord Inquisitor Rex and they looked really cool. Although reading the whole "ripped out skeleton and welded it to metal" thing was a bit grim. Honestly, it's like you can't have anything nice in the 41st millennium without being mutilated or kidnapped as a child or having a close family member murdered or being brainwashed.

Adeptus Aspartem:

Megalodon:

Adeptus Aspartem:
Tau were shit, Eldar will be too.

So what was bad about the Tau book? Bullshit fluff aside, the crunch looked pretty solid.

The Taubook didn't work in 5th, and does not in 6th. The main problem, decent troops, still remain. Things that needed change didn't get any. It was mostly shuffling some numbers around but besides the Riptide it's the same friggin codex as before without S10 guns on the XV88.
Which means: Tau is still a solid ally, but a bad choice for a main force.
Alot of people were already aware this was going to happen, since the ally chart made the Tau the whores of the universe with 12 or so allies.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if their not playable, they were my main army a long time, but for a tournament play their performance is to unstable to be considered anything but mediocre. Sadly, it remains the 2nd strongest Xenos codex (3rd if we count Chaos as Xenos and not as evil Imperials).

tl;dr => Codex changed numbers around, unplayable units still unplayable, bad troops not fixed

But the main strengths of the Tau are still there. Fire Warriors are good value for 9 points, markerlights are still twisted, and Crisis suits stayed the same/got better. True, the stuff previously not worth taking still isn't, but the good stuff is still pretty damn good. Only major changes where "Riptides of Crisis for Elites?" and the removal of "Broadside or Hammerhead for Heavy Support?", as Hammerheads are now simply better.

See THAT is the main problem. The rules are totally bullshit, but we GW costumers are used to such treatment, so we don't even care anymore. The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design.

What is that view based on? Why the assuption that every decision GW make is a mustache-twirling evil scheme to screw their customers (not to say those haven't been made before, bloody Finecast)?

EDIT: Better example of the kind of evil you're talking, repackaging Dire Avengers into five per box, then charging more for the fucking box. But again, while they pull shit like this, I don't see evidence for a conspiracy while they're writng the rules.

Fliers are broken and alot of them got nerfed by FAQ errata after they've sold a bunch. It's the usual GW thing: Bring something new, make it broken, FAQ nerf it after it sold.

Which flyersare broken, and which have been nerfed? Overall, I've not been too impressed with how flyers work, due to their movement rules, you only seem to get 2 turns shooting at what you want to target, which is not ideal in a 6/7 turn game.

Fun part: Mech/Semi-Mech is still stronger than pure foot lists. Also the forced shift onto foot hurt Xenos more than any other. 5+ cover for Xenos matters, Marines never used cover anyway.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

PS: Actually wound allocation actually got better, imo. Sped things up alot.

True for the most part, but I personally dislike the "always from the front" method, especially as there is no way to recover speial weapons if the guy with the gun falls. Let the flamer/melta/plamsa take a look out sir, just like the sergeant, and I'd have a lot less of a problem.

PPS: Out local tournaments still look the same: Imps/GK's plow through everything. You won't stop crazy ass lists with 15-20 vehicles and 50-70 troops with the other codizes. Specially not with Xenos ones.

What kind of points are you talking about here? What are these lists? Because even Guard will struggle to fit that many vehivcles into a normal 1500/2000 point list.

Zantos:
Ooooh Horus Rising! "I was there the day that Horus killed the Emperor." I love that book!

I checked out the Thallax units when I last went on Forge World to just look at Lord Inquisitor Rex and they looked really cool. Although reading the whole "ripped out skeleton and welded it to metal" thing was a bit grim. Honestly, it's like you can't have anything nice in the 41st millennium without being mutilated or kidnapped as a child or having a close family member murdered or being brainwashed.

No, not that one. Betrayal. The Horus Heresy Rulebook/army list/campaign/fluff thing from FW.

Betrayal has some more info on them, they are mainly mortally wounded skitari and mechanicus forces as well as some other sources left to your imagination. I personally take the grimdark bullshit with a pinch of salt. You can get mechanicus that are basically a brain in a jar, so why the hell the process of making a Thallax causes unimaginable agony and the replacement of natural sensory organs would require brainwashing above what they'd already have as Mechanicus forces anyway IDK.

Megalodon:

theultimateend:

I would love to get into Warhammer but the cost has always kept me away sadly.

Don't get me wrong, the hobby isn't exactly cheap. On the other hand, it does offer pretty good value in time vs money spent. Say a box like this costing 23.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440177a&prodId=prod260003a&rootCatGameStyle=

Now that's a couple of hours to assemble the figures, then painting each one takes a good few hours too. So you're looking at probably at least 20-30 hours spent assembling, painting and basing them. Then putting a time on gaming with them is much harder. But contrast that to games where a new 40 game will generally take 8-16 hours to beat.

Again not saying it's cheap, but realistically it's a hobby not massively worse than most.

What my friends and I did:

I have a 3d Printer, my friend is good with modeling software, and another is a painter, we each have several armies, and can make new models on the fly without paying GW for their overpriced crap.

OT: Sounds good, I got the Tau codex, Riptides are insane.

Sigh, I miss 40K. The cool dudes in the Games Workshop here got fired years ago and were replaced by a bunch of douchebags and the people I played with left. The new ruleset years back was the final straw. Still miss it though.

Glad to hear my Eldar are getting renewed. Eldar are awesome, especially harlequins and War Walkers. I love rolling 48 dice for 3 machines and rolling 40 dice for 10 harlequins (WITH RENDING) Ah, good times n.n

People in my club are kind of done with Games Workshop anyway. The prices have become too crazy, just too crazy.
And now they've stopped with their awesome specialist games, made both fantasy and 40K depend even MORE on dice then they already did, and the tables get swamped with giant models.
It's just not fun anymore.

But check out Dystopian Wars, big resin ships that are very affordable, or Infinity, a tactical skirmish game with metal models, slightly cheaper then Games Workshop, but you only need about 10 guys to have a solid army.

http://www.spartangames.co.uk/
http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity/en/

Man, y'all are killing my mojo, remind me not to click on any more war gaming threads outside of dedicated war gaming sites.

Is it just me, or does giving a race that prefers to employ stealth and deception based tactics a

GIANT FUCKING GUNDAMU WINGU

... seem a little backwards?

No, I think I'll be sticking with my convertible croissant and giant mecha chicken, thank you very much.

(Plus Eldar are just jerks)

Haven't managed to see the pictures yet Chrome is having a fit and won't load them, does our Flyer look alright?

Also heard we are getting a Ranger character for a HQ.

Chappy:
Haven't managed to see the pictures yet Chrome is having a fit and won't load them, does our Flyer look alright?

Also heard we are getting a Ranger character for a HQ.

Yeah, Illic Nightspear, the Alaitoc guy from Codex Necrons, don'y know if he's HQ or just a unit upgrade though.

Flyer looks pretty solid, better than a lot of recent GW flyers (canopy-less necron ones and the Dark Angels flying cathedral spring to mind).

BanicRhys:
Man, y'all are killing my mojo, remind me not to click on any more war gaming threads outside of dedicated war gaming sites.

Is it just me, or does giving a race that prefers to employ stealth and deception based tactics a

GIANT FUCKING GUNDAMU WINGU

... seem a little backwards?

No, I think I'll be sticking with my convertible croissant and giant mecha chicken, thank you very much.

(Plus Eldar are just jerks)

Potentially, but then they've always had Titans, Superheavies and other big things. But I've covered my resons for disliing the Wraith Knight earlier in the thred (plus the fact it's 70 fucking quid).

Quazimofo:

I just don't like the chicken legs. I heard that wraithguard are finally plastic, and with a price reduction (yes, you heard that right, lower price than current for 5 wraithguard).

Wait... Games workshop are lowering prices? That can't be right, heck when they switch from metal to a resin that cost half as much to make the miniatures from, they still jacked the prices up.

Have they updated the Striking Scorpion models? Those things are possibly my favorite Xenos model.

I haven't been in the hobby in any meaningful sense since 4th ed, but I've been keeping a bit of a beady eye on developments. I've noticed that everything is getting [b]BIGGER[/i]. Not just the size creep (although I note that Killa Kans are the size of 3rd ed Dreds, and Deff Dreds are now the width of a Leman Russ) but also making regular 40k into a lite-version of Apocalypse with flyers as standard and stuff like the huge walkers.

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

Also, I guess this means the Stompa will be a Troops choice in the new Orks Codex...

A lot of mixed reception on the direction the game is going.

I for one like 6th. I ran an Eldar army for awhile and they are my main force and I use a mix of vehicles and infantry. Mechanised was never an option for Eldar since Wave Serpents are too expensive. Currently running an all mech Dark Eldar army until the new dex is out and I think that the randomness improved the meta at both the GW I play at and the club I go to. I don't mind random powers and such and vehicles hull points are a good addition to the game. Your vehicles are easier to destroy but remain at full effectiveness for longer instead of being crippled by stuns and shakens from glances.

With the Giant Walker fad its just to add a new dimension of models to the tabletop. I will be buying a Wraithknight because the model is beautiful even if I don't run it often.Logical progression of a series is to get bigger, a sequel cant be smaller scale than the film that came before it for example.

Batou667:

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

VeneratedWulfen93:
vehicles hull points are a good addition to the game. Your vehicles are easier to destroy but remain at full effectiveness for longer instead of being crippled by stuns and shakens from glances.

Could not disagree with this more, hull points are my most hated mechanic in 40k at the moment. In theory they could work, but the 2-4 scale is stupid, a DE raider and a Leman Russ should not have the same number of "wounds". The automatic nature of them is dumb as well, taking a hull point on a 4+ for glancing and 3+ for penetratig would be a far superior mechanic.

Megalodon:

Batou667:

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

VeneratedWulfen93:
vehicles hull points are a good addition to the game. Your vehicles are easier to destroy but remain at full effectiveness for longer instead of being crippled by stuns and shakens from glances.

Could not disagree with this more, hull points are my most hated mechanic in 40k at the moment. In theory they could work, but the 2-4 scale is stupid, a DE raider and a Leman Russ should not have the same number of "wounds". The automatic nature of them is dumb as well, taking a hull point on a 4+ for glancing and 3+ for penetratig would be a far superior mechanic.

An Autarch and a Wraithlord shouldn't have the same amount of wounds buts they do.

Megalodon:

Adeptus Aspartem:

The Taubook didn't work in 5th, and does not in 6th. The main problem, decent troops, still remain. Things that needed change didn't get any. It was mostly shuffling some numbers around but besides the Riptide it's the same friggin codex as before without S10 guns on the XV88.
Which means: Tau is still a solid ally, but a bad choice for a main force.
Alot of people were already aware this was going to happen, since the ally chart made the Tau the whores of the universe with 12 or so allies.
Don't get me wrong, it's not as if their not playable, they were my main army a long time, but for a tournament play their performance is to unstable to be considered anything but mediocre. Sadly, it remains the 2nd strongest Xenos codex (3rd if we count Chaos as Xenos and not as evil Imperials).

tl;dr => Codex changed numbers around, unplayable units still unplayable, bad troops not fixed

But the main strengths of the Tau are still there. Fire Warriors are good value for 9 points, markerlights are still twisted, and Crisis suits stayed the same/got better. True, the stuff previously not worth taking still isn't, but the good stuff is still pretty damn good. Only major changes where "Riptides of Crisis for Elites?" and the removal of "Broadside or Hammerhead for Heavy Support?", as Hammerheads are now simply better.

The main strengths of the Tau army is being allies. I already said, they're fine as allies. They're a horrible weak main force. Fire Warriors are not good troops. They can't/couldn't contest for shit, they got no special weapons and their transport is/was crap. Everything that was shit, stay'd shit. And Hammerheads are still bad and if i'd tell you to reall rethink ever picking something other than Broadsides. Both versions are better and Tau can't do Mech, so you're HH's are the only thing eating all the AT and usually die turn 1, maybe turn 2.

What is that view based on? Why the assuption that every decision GW make is a mustache-twirling evil scheme to screw their customers (not to say those haven't been made before, bloody Finecast)?

EDIT: Better example of the kind of evil you're talking, repackaging Dire Avengers into five per box, then charging more for the fucking box. But again, while they pull shit like this, I don't see evidence for a conspiracy while they're writng the rules.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.
It has nothing to with evil mustache twirling. On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Which flyersare broken, and which have been nerfed? Overall, I've not been too impressed with how flyers work, due to their movement rules, you only seem to get 2 turns shooting at what you want to target, which is not ideal in a 6/7 turn game.

Criossant's, Vendetta and mainly the Helldrake. They're basically immortal (though Tau allies changed that slightly) and way to good pointswise. Specially the Helldrake removes ~5-7 Marines per turn easily. 2 Helldrakes alone are usually enough to eradicate half your troops if played well.
I know that both the Vendetta & the Necroissants got some nerf but i cba to search it again, but if you're interessted you'd probably find it somewhere on yesthetruthhurts, they talked about it a few times.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

What kind of points are you talking about here? What are these lists? Because even Guard will struggle to fit that many vehivcles into a normal 1500/2000 point list.

Just from what i remember: For 2k, there'll be ~16 vehicles.

Coteaz, 6 Warbands (5 dudes /w Stormbolters) in Razorback /w PsyHeavybolter, 3 PsyfleDreads
Company CS in Chim and around 6 of Infantrysquads in Chims.

You'll end up with 6 Razorbacks, 7 Chimeras, 3 Dreads and everything except the Dread + 155pts HQ is scoring.
Heavy Armor is also no problem, since you can field up to ~16 Melter on 6 diffrent units.
The rest eats 18x TL S6, 21x S6 and 12x S8 from only the vehicles. The other 60 S5 and 50-100 S3 shots would follow.

Just by heart it's not perfect, but still incredibly scary. The costing point of this army should clock in around ~1'200 euros easily.

Windknight:

Quazimofo:

I just don't like the chicken legs. I heard that wraithguard are finally plastic, and with a price reduction (yes, you heard that right, lower price than current for 5 wraithguard).

Wait... Games workshop are lowering prices? That can't be right, heck when they switch from metal to a resin that cost half as much to make the miniatures from, they still jacked the prices up.

No bull, wraithguard went from 69 in finecast for a box of 5 to a double-box of 5 guard/blades for 50.

I guess it really is true what a friend of mine who was ex-gw (and still has stock int he company) told me: GW doesn't increase prices out of greed, the adjust prices to fit costs of production. At least most of the time.

VeneratedWulfen93:

An Autarch and a Wraithlord shouldn't have the same amount of wounds buts they do.

True, and the Wraithlord is a bit of an anomlay for a Monstrous Creature, the rest sitting on 4/5/6 wounds. Plus Wraithlords get a save when they're wounded, if they had given vehicles a save along with thier hull points, I would dislike the mechanic less.

Adeptus Aspartem:

The main strengths of the Tau army is being allies. I already said, they're fine as allies. They're a horrible weak main force. Fire Warriors are not good troops. They can't/couldn't contest for shit, they got no special weapons and their transport is/was crap. Everything that was shit, stay'd shit. And Hammerheads are still bad and if i'd tell you to reall rethink ever picking something other than Broadsides. Both versions are better and Tau can't do Mech, so you're HH's are the only thing eating all the AT and usually die turn 1, maybe turn 2.

9 points for a model with a 4+ save and the best small arm in the game isn't good value to you? It doesn't matter that Fire Warriors can't take special weapons, they have pulse rifles. Likewise, Dire Avengers aren't crap because they cann only have shuriken catapults. Why can't they contest? Because they can't fight in assault? If that's the case then Imperial Guard and Necrons also have crap troops.

Hammerheads bad? 145 ponts for a 13, 12, 10 tank wth BS4, a buffed cover save and a railgun is bad according to you? Or do you just subscribe to the idea that you should take no tanks or all tanks? Worried that they'll take all the heavy fire from the enemy, add a Riptide or two, that will probably distarct the enmey's big guns.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.

I'm talking about your assuption that rules changes are not made because it's a good design idea, or for game balance, but ONLY becuase they want to sell more, different models. Of course they do want to sell models, but every rules adjustment is unlikely to be entirely motivated by selling models, "fixing" the rules is a valid motivation too.
"The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design."

On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Damn right about this.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

Firstly, DE are a 5th ed codex, and remain a highly effective one. They're just the glass hammer that they should be. Orks never had viability? Did you never hear about the hell of the the 5th ed Nob Biker list? While they are feeling thier age these days, to say they never were viable is patently false. Why are Nids dead for 2 editions now? Necrons crap? The old dex wasn't crap, just boring, which has been mixed up nicely this dex.

Also you didn't answer my question about you contradicting yourself abut mech vs "forced shift onto foot".

Megalodon:

Batou667:

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

I see.. are they still vulnerable to being instakilled, or has that been taken out of the rules?

Batou667:

Megalodon:

Batou667:

How do the big walkers function on the tabletop? Are they just really big dreadnoughts, or are they war machines with multiple structure points, etc?

5 wound, 2+save monstrous creaturesfor the most part.

I see.. are they still vulnerable to being instakilled, or has that been taken out of the rules?

They can, but as most are T6, you can't use high strength weaponry to do it, but special weaponry with Instant Death will still work (like force weapons).

Megalodon:
9 points for a model with a 4+ save and the best small arm in the game isn't good value to you? It doesn't matter that Fire Warriors can't take special weapons, they have pulse rifles. Likewise, Dire Avengers aren't crap because they cann only have shuriken catapults. Why can't they contest? Because they can't fight in assault? If that's the case then Imperial Guard and Necrons also have crap troops.

Hammerheads bad? 145 ponts for a 13, 12, 10 tank wth BS4, a buffed cover save and a railgun is bad according to you? Or do you just subscribe to the idea that you should take no tanks or all tanks? Worried that they'll take all the heavy fire from the enemy, add a Riptide or two, that will probably distarct the enmey's big guns.

What the hell are you talking about? Conspiracy? When GW puts out a new Codex/Edition, their goal is to sell the most models possible. So they change the rules accordingly hoping that they meet that goal.

I'm talking about your assuption that rules changes are not made because it's a good design idea, or for game balance, but ONLY becuase they want to sell more, different models. Of course they do want to sell models, but every rules adjustment is unlikely to be entirely motivated by selling models, "fixing" the rules is a valid motivation too.
"The shift onto foot was only made, because they wanted to sell models - since they've sold metal boxes before, now they want you to field 100 foot soldiers. It had nothing to do with balance or game design."

On top of that they're just stupid, because they've yet to figure out that a good product would sell itself without those dick-moves.

Damn right about this.

If Mech is still stronger, how is there a "forced shift onto foot"? Also, which Xenos? The armies really play differently. If you footslog Dark Eldar, you're going to lose, but the Ork horde has lost little/none of its viability this edition. Then there's Nids, who never had the option. Not all Xenos are equivalent.

DEldar is a 4th ed codex and never worked.
Orks never had viabilty, got a little bit with 6th. Specially the removal of fearless wounds helped. And even nowadays "working" Orc lists tend to focus on putting down 150+ models and just outsustain you - what a fun game.
Nid's are dead since the end of 4th, with the only exception of playing 6 Tervigons to draw on every game.
Eldar are craptastic overpriced. Necrons are boring because except the Fliers the codex is the same crap as before.
Demons, lol.
And Tau as the bitches of the ally table and a mediocre army at best.

Firstly, DE are a 5th ed codex, and remain a highly effective one. They're just the glass hammer that they should be. Orks never had viability? Did you never hear about the hell of the the 5th ed Nob Biker list? While they are feeling thier age these days, to say they never were viable is patently false. Why are Nids dead for 2 editions now? Necrons crap? The old dex wasn't crap, just boring, which has been mixed up nicely this dex.

Also you didn't answer my question about you contradicting yourself abut mech vs "forced shift onto foot".

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me. This discussion would take ages and i'm not in the mood to disect this :) Nothing personal or anything.
I seriously recommend you to check out yesthetruthhurts.com.

Adeptus Aspartem:

Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me. This discussion would take ages and i'm not in the mood to disect this :) Nothing personal or anything.
I seriously recommend you to check out yesthetruthhurts.com.

Gonna have to disagree here, that site was hilariously bad. 1d4 chan gives better advice.

Finally. Maybe the priced for the old editions will go down a bit, not that they were that expensive to begin with.

Adeptus Aspartem:
Sorry dude. There are just to many misconceptions in this posts for me.

Too many misconceptions when you're the guy saying things like DE are a 4th edition codex? Or that Necrons are the same as before except flyers? Or that the only lists Nid's have involve 6 Tervigons (I'd admit they're still not competitive, but 6th edition made a lot of other units more viable than they'd been since 4th edition)?

Sorry, but you can't claim that someone else has too many misconceptions about the game to continue debating with them when some of your info is just flat out and objectively wrong.

Megalodon:

theultimateend:

I would love to get into Warhammer but the cost has always kept me away sadly.

Don't get me wrong, the hobby isn't exactly cheap. On the other hand, it does offer pretty good value in time vs money spent. Say a box like this costing 23.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440177a&prodId=prod260003a&rootCatGameStyle=

Now that's a couple of hours to assemble the figures, then painting each one takes a good few hours too. So you're looking at probably at least 20-30 hours spent assembling, painting and basing them. Then putting a time on gaming with them is much harder. But contrast that to games where a new 40 game will generally take 8-16 hours to beat.

Again not saying it's cheap, but realistically it's a hobby not massively worse than most.

I would generally agree with this assessment, though I will say some other war games just have a substantially better cost to value ratio. If all you're interested in is painting models then there are some GW models and units that aren't bad as far as value, but some others are absolutely awful (the amount it would cost to buy models for a single Dark Eldar Beastmaster unit is so mind blowingly absurd that you can buy entire playable armies for the same amount of money for example).

Personally, I got into Warmachine and Hordes a few months back and as far as having models to paint and getting a playable army to start out with it's just got GW beat hands down. It can certainly get pretty expensive as you add units and models and grow your armies, but I was able to buy the Warmachine rulebook, an army starter pack, an extra single model, and a set of faction coloured paints for less than the 40k rulebook costs on its own (to say nothing of adding in a Codex and everything else). Hell, when I started 40K and got the Tyranid battlebox, I still technically didn't have a legal army to field despite it costing me more than $120. For people where overall cost is a concern, I really wouldn't recommend any GW games. There are just better options for getting from having nothing to having models on the table ready to play.

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