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Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 617 Joined: 13 Jul 2006     | |
Senior Editor  Posts: 2280 Joined: 9 Jan 2007     | First off, let's not confuse marriage with weddings. Weddings have become this overblown thing that cost a mint and end up causing more frustration, stress, and hurt feelings than they do joy. The best weddings I've attended are the ones where the bride and groom foot the bill themselves, because it allowed them to create the day THEY wanted, as opposed to pleasing someone else. As for marriage, whether or not it's "worth it" is all in the eye of the beholder. There are some practical benefits, of course, mostly financial and legal, though those probably aren't the best reasons to get married. Having someone stand up in front of family and friends and say "I like and love and respect this person enough to put up with their particular brand of bullshit" can be a truly powerful experience. You certainly don't have to get married in order to live a long and happy life with the person of your choice, but getting married isn't a guarantee that it'll all go wrong, either. Marriage can be beautiful, and it can be complete crap. It all depends on the two people involved and the work they're willing to do. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4058 Joined: 4 Jul 2008     | Thais your right on that aspect. And also true. |
Paperboy  Posts: 34 Joined: 19 May 2008     | Is marriage important? *a wedding, I mean. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1871 Joined: 11 Jun 2008     | oddly enough, this thread is a good example of my point. what a relationship means is an entirely subjective concept, and the key is meeting another person who shares that concept. using this forum as an example, you can see how complex and specific each person's individual idea is.. well, depending on who they are with they could all be theoretically wrong or right. so if i love insanely retarded and expensive weddings, and so does my wife... then it will probably be the most insanely retardly awesome experience we would ever share. sure other might consider such expenses as frivilous and irrelevant but aren't shallow greedy people allowed to have joy as well? |
BANNED  Posts: 6317 Joined: 29 Nov 2007     | Marriage is a beautiful thing, until it's perverted by people who cheapen the word love. User was banned for: The hypocrisy is KILLING me.. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2951 Joined: 21 May 2008   | I don't think marriage is worthwhile... It's basicly a big flashy ceremony to say I love you. I think I can skip the flashy stuff. The only way I will marry someone if she doesn't stop bugging me for it. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 185 Joined: 12 Jun 2008     |
About the legal issues or about "wedding bloat" needing to be separated from the "marriage" question? |
Beat Writer  Posts: 208 Joined: 12 Jun 2008   |
I'm sorry but just because some people do not believe marriage to be the ultimate goal of a relationship does not mean they will die without a partner - which is what I assume you mean by "die alone" - nor does it mean they are trying to ruin marriage for everyone else or that no one wants to marry them. A friend of mine's parents are not married and have said they will never get married, but nevertheless have been with each other faithfully and loyally (as far as my friend knows of course) without any kind of separation for over thirty years now. It's right for some and not for others I guess but it certainly does not mean they would rather see no-one get married or the institution of marriage to die out - it's simply not for them. Furthermore, to digress: we will ALL die alone without our partners; wife, husband or otherwise, unless we carry out some kind of suicide pact with them, or suffer some kind of terrible accident or event, these are not prerequisites or vows of marriage. "Till death do us part" I believe is the phrase. i.e. when we die we will be parted, ergo: we will be without each other when we are dead (I concede if only briefly if you have belief in certain religions). Everyone is born alone and dies alone (save for cojoined twins if you wish to be pedantic, but they inhabit a single body and can therfore be discounted) it is a fact of life. To be clear I am not disputing that you may meet up again with your partner in an afterlife as this is down to religious belief, not your opinion on marriage. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 964 Joined: 8 May 2008   | A piece of paper shouldn't decide for me whether I love someone or not. A woman who comes into where I work has been with her boyfriend for 20 years, and they're not married, they call each other "husband" and "wife" because that's how they are but they just never saw the point in marriage, we have really interesting conversations when she comes in, makes my day:) I know I maybe called a "spoilsport" or "no fun"(and believe me I have)but I would rather the money(£20,000 plus pounds knowing the type of woman I'll probably end up with)be spent on the mortgage, on a new car, deposit for a new house, put it away in a high interest account for a rainy day. You're spending a fuckton of money on one day where you basically exchange surnames and gain the "privilege" of calling each other husband and wife. If you think you need to sign a piece of paper to say "I Love You and want to spend the rest of my life with you" to someone then honestly I really don't care about the "religious" significance or shit like that but you truly are bonkers in my eyes. And then you wonder why divorce is at all time high, marriage doesn't exactly get off to a good start when you're 20,000 plus pounds in the red. I even more despise the people who look down on unmarried couples who have children just because they're "illegitimate". They may seem beneath you just because they come from a family where the parents aren't married but I would bet at least that kid is for the most part brought up right and taught a thing or too properly, much more than that married couple with a "legitimate" child. The level of ignorance and stupidity of some people is awe inspiring sometimes, what should it matter if the kid is "legitimate" or not? Is the kid loved? Yes. Is it taught well? Yes. Does it respect people? Yes. Etc. There is no one that should be swayed by what a piece of paper or a title of two people says, as long as I love my girlfriend and my child I couldn't care less about marriage, because I know I can do a goodass job anyway. I don't need a piece of paper to tell me otherwise. I feel sorry for the people who allow that bit of paper to rule their lives and make the decision for them because they have no belief that they can do a good job regardless of what anyone, never mind a bloody piece of paper, says. |
Beat Writer Posts: 208 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 | WlknCntrdiction, I completely agree with you. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4058 Joined: 4 Jul 2008 |
The wedding bloat. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 964 Joined: 8 May 2008 |
And have you also heard of them bringing in laws giving unmarried couples more rights? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't be coming in and commenting, sounding like the 12 year olds that you think we are. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1871 Joined: 11 Jun 2008 |
i don't believe anyone believes that |
Beat Writer Posts: 208 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 | It seems like NOOBSWTF joined just to post that point and be noticed... |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2174 Joined: 14 Nov 2007    |
Mmm hmmm... cos the fact that I don't see myself actually marrying anyone in the future obviously means I'm a socially retarded nobody who can't handle commitment, right? Just because I don't want a wife, doesn't mean I don't want a life-long partner. Have fun sorting out divorce settlements... |
Beat Writer Posts: 208 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 | My sentiments exactly j-e-f-f-e-r-s. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1871 Joined: 11 Jun 2008 |
i didn't notice him until you mentoned it. just hit the report button on him... i tried pwning somebody back the other day and got a 3 day ban for it. the mods here do a great job so use em and ignore the twits. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 190 Joined: 13 Dec 2007    | my friend just announced he proposed to his girlfriend and I am supposed to be in the wedding. am happy for him. Is marriage right for me? Who's to say? I always thought that I should marry one of my friends just for the legal reasons and tax breaks but still be able to have romantic relationships on the side. I don't know if I'll get so lucky, but I do want to start a family one day and a marriage is appealing to that end. In the end it's not the title, but what you make of it that makes the relationship. |
Beat Writer Posts: 208 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 | Thanks BallPtPenTheif, will do. I was going to insult him, but then guessed I would get banned and so decided not to. Squirrelman42, If you feel that marriage may one day be right for you then that is fine. Although as WlknCntrdiction pointed out you can soon get tax breaks for just being with a life partner so there's no need to get married for that particular reason. |
Muckraker  Posts: 256 Joined: 13 Jan 2008 | Marriage is worth it. As a bisexual living in a country where should I choose to partner with a man, I would be unable to in the eyes of the law. The rights and benefits gained from marriage cover so many things, help on so many levels, and do so much for you, that to even question their worth is to not know their value at all. Weddings, however, I would consider worth it only to the person crossing the 't's and dotting the 'i's. Why? Because they are doing it all because they believe it will be worth it. It may or may not in the end, and occasionally people will look at it and go cross eyed over the whole fuss, but to the bride or groom trudging their way to the date, it may all be worth it. And while we may not go the extra miles to stress over how the salmon will be cooked and what songs are played in what order because it's not worth it us, to someone it is. Me personally? I do have the occasional day dream about my wedding (which flip-flops between what gender I'm marrying) and sometimes I desire a nice outdoors wedding in the fall (I love the colors) and sometimes it's a beautiful church wedding in the winter (seriously, a hot stuffy church in summer or spring? No thanks). But in the end, it's always small, it's never extravagant, and I certainly can't see myself spending a lot of money on a wedding. As others have mentioned, I'd rather save it or use it towards something lasting. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3664 Joined: 21 Jan 2008   | Marriages don't have to be expensive you know... it can be as simple as filling out that form, though that's not very appealing, is it now? In my opinion, I'd like to get married, and well, I do think it's necessary. I've been raised up to believe that you should get married, then have kids, so a de facto relationship doesn't appeal to me. Like several others have said, rushing into marriage, marrying for the wrong reasons or expecting change leads to relationship breakdown. I heard a long time ago that one of the most important things in a relationship is compromise, that ability to do something you don't want to for the sake of your other. In today's relationships, people think marriage (and love) is all about them, but it isn't, and that's where the relationship fails. |
Time Lord  Posts: 10073 Joined: 13 Feb 2008    |
Why? What happens if you actually like staying single? |
Escapist Co-Founder  Posts: 829 Joined: 21 Nov 2004  | A wedding is not the same thing as a marriage - it's merely the celebration of the beginning of marriage. And it's completely up to the people getting married whether or not they need a full five-course meal with a band and all the people they've ever met in their entire lives, or if they are fine with a quiet ceremony in the park alone. Marriage? Yes. I believe in it. Taking a vow in front of friends/family/god/each other to love, honor and cherish is a neat thing. Is it necessary? No, I think only in the situation of having children to provide them that sense of security as they grow up is it necessary. But, I'm engaged to the most wonderful man ever, and I can't wait till it's officially he and I in it together, forever. Sure, we are now, but Official is a nice thing. :) |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 964 Joined: 8 May 2008 | To me your post screamed "insecure", I'm not here to flame you but please let me explain how I read your post.
Ok, that part I can agree with
From Wikipedia: I never knew love could be so difficult, all these forms to fill out before you "actually" love someone. And why does the vow have to be in front of everyone? Can you and your partner not make a vow to yourselves? "Dear (insert fiances name here), I promise to love you until the end of my days and that we shall spend the rest of our lives together". See? It doesn't need to be announced for the world to hear, I think they practically already know you're in for the long haul since you're getting married but I see this "vow" thing as conforming to the masses. Yes, I know I'm going to be called out for "non conforming just to conform" but for me it goes without saying that if I meet someone who I want to spend the rest of my life with then I will tell her and her only, it's no one elses business. I know that me and my girlfriend will last, we don't need "confirmation" of a vow to tell us that.
Sense of security? And here I was thinking that having a loving, caring, respectable family looking after you gave kids a sense of security, the fact that they can talk to their parents about anything should give them the sense of security, not whether their parents are married or not. And those unmarried parents should be able to teach their kids that security comes from those things, not marriage. I think you're talking about security as seen by society which again I think is insecurity. "If I don't get married then how will my kids ever have a sense of security that only marriage can provide", that's what I'm hearing.
This line just about confirms it for me. Official? Why does your love have to be official? And it's a nice thing? It's a nice thing to have your love be made official? Or do you mean it's nice to tell everybody that you two are madly, deeply in love? I'm going to go with the latter. You and him are in it forever? Then why get married? If you're in it forever that would imply you two can commit to each other for life, something far more valuble than marriage. But then you go back to conforming,("Sure we are now but official is a nice thing"), Most people can say they love their partner, but obviously because it's not official they can't then be in love can they? Or they clearly aren't as in love as you two are, how could they be? Their love isn't official, they aren't married. To me it's this very mentality about marriage being a "I'm better than you, I've got the documents to prove it" thing that gets on my nerves. You got married, whoop de doo. I've been with my girlfriend for 20 + years, we have a kid who is loved, cherished and not a moment goes by where we don't love each other, our child may be "illegitimate" but he/she is most certainly brought up better than yours. Bullshit and chips for tea again methinks:( |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1282 Joined: 1 Jun 2008  | Allow me to preface, I'm not married, have never been married, and don't plan to get married for a very long time (but I do plan to marry eventually). That being said, marriage is an entirely unnessasary display of superiority. It's similar in mental processes (if admittedly not emotional processes) to deciding you're going to five-star the Devil Went Down to Georgia on the hardest difficulty. After you've done it, you haven't really gained anything but an adrenaline high and a sore arm and more over now just playing the regular game isn't as interesting because you feel like you're steping down a league for playing what you used to love. But hey, that adrenaline high was really exciting! Why do humans look forward to marriage so much? I'm honestly not sure. I certainly intend to be married one day but I also certainly don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm willing to guess this is the standard pattern in human society. If you've been on earth very long and your perceptive you quickly notice that humans are by far the weirdest, oddest, most contradictory creatures on it. We have the ability to think rationaly and plan ahead, we just choose to ignore it. It's more convenient if you don't have to think about it. |
Paperboy Posts: 21 Joined: 5 Feb 2008 | If you really are looking for an answer, I'd disregard any response from anyone who isn't married, (or at least hasn't been married at least once). This makes me sound elitist, but you don't ask non-swimmers what it's like to swim - you ask the fish (end of the dubious metaphor). Firstly, humans need rituals, whether they be religious or social, a wedding is precisely that, a ritual understood by the community at large. It provides a type of social cement to a community, and also to you and your other half. An official declaration is part of this cementing. I cannot believe that standing up in front of a large group of people (whether religious or civil) has *no* psychical effect on how you view relationships and how you treat the other person (caveat - see next paragraph). It's been part of human society for as long as we have recorded history, but there's been a surge in the last 50 years of people who suddenly think that they can slough off social mores and escape the consequences, and the general downward trend in society must be attributed in some part, by the destruction of the nuclear family and a move towards the postmodern family. It's not a guarantee, but I think it's fairly inductive. I'm reading a lot of people saying 'I don't need a piece of paper because our love is forever' etc., but this is missing the point. The fact is that 50% of marriages end in divorce, and the numbers for civil partnerships are pretty much the same (iirc), and they all thought their love would last forever; but that's because there's been a shift from love being an act of will, to love being a feeling you experience. The consequences of that are the 50% that don't work- your love (statistically) isn't going to be forever which leads to my next point. Divorce should be addressed because the long-term-relationship group think that they are going to be exempt from any of the same issues that plague married people. Marriage at least provides some sort of legal cover, whereas your long term relationship won't provide the same level (although in England they're trying to make them the same). Marriage gives you more security, that an unspoken (or spoken) agreement doesn't. It gives better legal cover, more security for children, and better sex. Pretty much any balanced couple who are married will tell you the same. I'm not excluding non-married relationships from being balanced/sane/happy, but in my experience from talking to friends, they're generally happier with a full commitment. |
Time Lord Posts: 10073 Joined: 13 Feb 2008 |
But fish don't know what life's like without swimming, so that's sort of killed that metaphor. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 665 Joined: 9 Jun 2008    |
I think you make some good points here and would like to comment. I agree that marriage is not for everyone. To get married you have to be ready for the life long commitment. Do you need to get married to have a life long commitment? No. If you are religious, you might lean more toward marriage. My point that I wrote that long essay about is that you really need to be ready for it, and you are correct, most people are not, and they spend too much money on the wedding and being in the red from the start is really bad. That is where I will reiterate that you have to have a partner with a like mind and be willing to compromise. If we did it exactly as my wife would have wanted we would probably be $20,000 in the hole. If we did it like I would like, we would have a party in Las Vegas for much less. We compromised and our entire wedding cost around $8000 and we has a little financial help form the families, and it was a great party. We had another couple friend who had a very similar wedding and came in cheaper. They got friends to help (i.e. free DJ and other stuff) and that seriously lowered the cost. If you have marriage in mind, make sure you partner and you have a similar picture of what it should be and be willing to compromise. Now as to the importance of getting married vs. long relationship with no marriage. In the states, commmonlaw marriage have very little legal legs to stand on (different with every state). So from that standpoint, if you are going to make a life long commitment to someone, it is cheaper to be married. More tax breaks, easier estate handling and insurance benefits. Someone else commented why should you have to declare your love in front of family and friends (i.e. just make a private statement of commitment). I think this is a very important part of the marriage process to have it public. Your friends and family should be a very important part of your life, so if you are going to commit to someone for life, I think it is important that they be involved (at least to witness the commitment). There is that saying "It takes a village to raise a child". A marriage could be seen the same way. If you are going to commit to someone for life, well that means they are going to be in contact with your friends and family, which hopefully are supportive. Involve them. To conclude my rants: Marriage is not for everyone. If you think that you have a partner that you want to spend the rest of your life with and not get married, more power to you. Just make sure your partner has the same feelings. But if you are together 20+ years (married or not) and you separate, the heartbreak will be the same. It may be cleaner financially if you are not married, but the emotional effect will be the same. Money can be replaced, love is harder to come by. I see my marriage as a contract with my wife that whatever happens, we will work through it. Separation and devorce is not an option. That is why I was DAMN sure of the person I was going to marry. I actually told her 6 months into our relationship that I was going to marry her (I just knew), but we waited another 2.5 years till we did it. We lived together before we were married (and I would definately recomend that to anyone). |
Beat Writer Posts: 185 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 |
Good heavens don't get me started. The whole insane "platinum weddings" movement (in other words million dollar weddings) thing makes me sick to my stomach, it's absolutely insane to spend that kind of money when you don't have it. They even have advertised (I'm female, so I must be inherently interested in this crap, remember?) in a "wedding supplement circular" here this year an all new product...the "wedding loan". Great idea that, yeah? |
Paperboy Posts: 21 Joined: 5 Feb 2008 |
Shhh, the metaphor is over! |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 2 Joined: 8 Jul 2008 | I don't think that marriage is really important, it's just a common tradition. It doesn't enhance your relationship by forking over £20,000 in my opinion. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2174 Joined: 14 Nov 2007 |
Better sex? How'd you work that one out? Someone not told me about extra uses for the wedding ring or something? |
On the Record  Posts: 6110 Joined: 25 Jan 2008  | You are all aware that marriage IS the leading cause of divorce? IMHO marriage is more a legal thing than a love thing. If married, you can sign a prenup and declare terms of the relationship, special benefits from work health plans or such apply to your spouse, and things stop being Mine and Hers and become Ours... The love part, you can love someone and even have kids together, still live under the same roof, and never marry. |
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I've been married for a bunch of years (can't remember how many because I'm a guy) and it's been alright. We have a 3-year-old and lived together for bunch of years before getting married and having a child. It's nice because there's a good chance one of you will be responsible enough each day to keep the house clean. That's what married life is about; keeping the house clean.
I'd only recommend people refrain from marriage if they're intolerant, immature, or any combination of those two. It's a lot of compromise and it's not for everyone. I like having someone in my life that I care about, someone I can talk to, to call me on my bullshit, laugh at my jokes, have wild sex with, and take turns cleaning the house.
I'm almost 32 and everybody under 30 looks like a kid and acts like a little snot. I don't recommend that younger people get married. You have to live life a little more until you've been beaten down and you're too tired to fight because there's a mantra for marriage and it's "Yes, Dear." If you can't say that and genuinely look like your will has been broken and your soul has been severely crushed (do you cry yourself to sleep at night?), you're not ready for marriage. If both of you have dreams and desires, that's where marriages fail.
I don't know where I'm going with this.
;-)