Im back from a holiday guys, it was fun, but something happened to me that i thought i might share with the one person who will always accept me...

the internet.

(haha, oh, i've been saving that for days)

The following is an account of some epiphanies that i had over the past 3 days, you most probably will not share them, hell you might not even see what the hell those epiphanies are but by damn im going to tell you... and ill try to make it amusing so you'll keep reading after this thread goes nuclear.
Have you been asked of your religious standpoint and when you couldn't be classified you get shoved into 'agnostic' and then you scratch your head over how it happened? i have not, and this is how it happened.

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Atheist, Agnostic, and Religious.

The following takes place over 4 hours, at an extended dinner turned debate.

The chicken, divine, the drink, exquisite... but something lurked in the shadows... like a rake in your bed or a landmine in your underwear draw. Debate.

But not just any debate my friends, a religious one, and a good'un. A right duel of the fates if i don't say so, light and the other light locked in an epic struggle to the death. Winner takes all loser takes he fall! worthy of orchestral accompaniment if it was quiet and didn't distract me or my opponent.

There was one problem, we were both men of faith.

Now, the debate ranged across as many topics as we had peas that night... 3, the rest were too old and i'd be damned if i did not cook those 3 peas. The topics were irrelevant, but the end result was the same.

Whenever a problem of logistics came up, it could all be excused as the work of the divine rather than being countered.

It turns out i was not possessed of the faith i thought i was.

I will explain my quandary in a form i think we all can appreciate... pokemon moves.

Ultrajoe uses 'God might use Science as his Methods'
It misses
Foe Friend uses 'Dont you have faith?'
Its a Critical Hit
Its super effective
Ultrajoe becomes confused
Ultrajoe is confused
Ultrajoe used 'Of course'
Ultrajoe does not have enough FP (Faith points) for that move
Foe Friend gets another helping of pie, his health is restored.

Do you see what's wrong here? of course you do... those are not pokemon moves, i am a liar and a cheat and a poor writer.

The second problem is that, in the eyes of the world, and my own... it would appear i am an agnostic despite the fact that i firmly believe that if you keep asking questions eventually you would get to a 'because' and that because is god.

By textbook definition i was an agnostic, but a confused agnostic, and no pecha berry could save me, no full restore was ready for use...

But things only got worse... switching tactics to suit my new definition, i tried to give misery some company and convince my friend that a god is not needed and science just shows us more of his coolness and forethought... but it would seem the only thing that seperated me and my good friend was faith.

Faith is immaterial, yet it was taking a magnificent cherry flavored dump all over our dinner and ruining my beef pie, and so i was decidedly pissed... because i hate cherry.

How could he, in one hand criticize science on the basis of lack of evidence and with the other hold up and image of the divine that was more akin to santa-claus or my imaginary friend Linoone the Wailmer (i was confused as a child, especially given that those pokemon had not been created yet) than an omnipotent benevolent being.

I had decided that faith was stupid, and that there was no conventional god. Looks like i'm a confused Atheist now.

And so, in the eyes of the world i had moved even further left-field...

or right, given your predisposition...

Wait... here comes an epiphany! It looks like its stupid to view your 'standpoint' in terms of 'left-field' or 'right-field' because they imply that someone is wrong. My friend is a good guy, a nice person and a mean poker player... so why should he be defined by his way of interpreting the same observations as me push us apart?!

I knew then what i must do.

Serve dessert.

And then, i would wage a war on classifications, generalizations and simplifications.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes, just like the Jedi failed to see that a balance was required in the force, I had tried to separate the world based on three little words, and for my troubles had been given the one of those words i disliked the most.

Thats right, i hated atheists for being over generalizing, close-minded fools who couldn't see that perhaps we just needed to learn more to fully understand the universe.

After this war on Sith i would wage a war on hypocrisy, my personal hypocrisy for starters, the worlds tomorrow.

Nobody disputed the facts, only the interpretations, Science cant accept that perhaps we don't know enough to understand god entirely, and my once-believed-to-be-brothers of the faith cant understand that perhaps the bible isn't the best explanation of the heavens nowadays, like science they should debate and advance theology rather than rot like the ill fated peas of yesterday.

Here comes epiphany two... Faith is just sentiment, it hit me like a ton of bricks, and made me even more confused than a shot of supersonic from my level 83 crobat. Now thats confused.

But sentiment is not worthless, love and hate and debate are sentiment, and faith does not decrease in value from this definition (the clever believer says that perhaps thats why we have sentiment)

And so I quit.

I quit definitions sir, i run from the battle and put down the gameboy, switch the cartridge then burn the hell out of it all.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes... as we are all human, trying to define something that is inherently personal and sentimental is like explaining the material wealth of your first toy, like arguing why you shouldn't tread on ants or why we build museums, why we learn history or weep when species go extinct.

Fuck you definitions, your the cause of debate and the reason i'm still hungry. From now on i'm responding to "Athiest, Agnostic or Faithful" in the most efficient way i can think of...

Teleport.

Summary of the above for those to lazy to read: The very act of trying to define faith or science is stupid, as its nature is fluid and personal, like trying to nail jelly to the wall or catch a sableye without an ultra ball.

Why did i bother to write this up? because to me i have come to understand the reasons debate is futile, and if i can convert one person away from the folly of defining the undefinable then he/she (she would be good, blonde for preference) can come over for a debate-free dinner, apple pie and all

That said, its good to be back escapists and i hope you might share with me your opinions on the nature of debate and the real world Sith that is definition.

Religion makes people do stupid evil things. If there is a god the one thing that would piss him off the most is the shit people carry out in his name. War, racial devition, violence.
Take the crusaids or the witch burning thingy. hundreds of thousands of people dead because a two thousand year old book told them to. Science isn't so good either. Science has probably killed more people than religion (gun powder, the A bomb that kind of stuff) so i dont really think its possible to take one side without contridicting yourself. that being said, this is why i completely severed myself off from either side. No longer religious and no longer care where science takes us next.
I live i quite, care free existance. Or at least i have ever since my cult failed.

The last time I got into an argument about religion, it was about weather homosexuality was wrong.
My opponent tried to bring in the bible to prove his point.
Honestly, I was raised believing god says "Do whatever the hell you want, I still love you" and my opponent believed "Repent or your all loving god will throw you into a lake of fire."

Ah, religion, the great debate.Possibly the easiest way to upset someone is to tell them their beliefs are wrong.I'm rather steadfast in my own, but are not up for discussion because too few lack an open mind to simply discuss them.It is better to revert to:"To each their own" and go on about your day.

If I may take the liberty to correct you. Christianity is a faith which stresses peace. The Crusades were perpetrated by Cathlics which I view as a Christian cult for they do not follow scripture. The bible does not give any power to the pope who was responsible for much of the religious intolerance any practices of the time.

Now, on to the original thread. I understand your frustration with religion but the "To each his own" statement is destructive. If there is a God,--which I believe there is because to assume otherwise turns humans into purposeless blobs of goo with now soul-- There is only one interpretation of his will and the others are wrong. There is only one right religion! Many of you think Christianity is not the right religion because it is the religion of your parents and you have a natural urge to rebel,however do you see a flaw in biblical logic.

He whole point of this post was to stress that we don't need labels for something that is inherently sentimental.

And to plug pokemon.

I tend to get a little excited about these issues. But I do want a response if you feel like it. I did find the Pokemon stint very funny though.

I have no problem when religion is used to bring good such as teaching people not to lie steal or kill but when people use god to justify war murder discrimination I get angry. I also Hate when religion impedes scientific progress for no reason like evolution or stem cell research.

people figured out a long time ago that they can trick people into doing there sick crazy biding by saying that its the will of god but let my be the first to say that if god is anti gay, anti abortion, and for killing people who don't believe in him god is wrong

disclaimer: I am not agents anybody's personal beliefs just radicals and extremists who impose their will on others

Perticular Elk:
If I may take the liberty to correct you. Christianity is a faith which stresses peace. The Crusades were perpetrated by Cathlics which I view as a Christian cult for they do not follow scripture. The bible does not give any power to the pope who was responsible for much of the religious intolerance any practices of the time.

yep youre quite right however islam stresses peace as well however that doesn't stop fanatics blowing the crap out of people.
I have a general problem with all organized religion however that's my view and I also know most are completely harmless and fanatics are normally outside of the said organization's and in all honesty every religion has blood on there hands at one point in history especially back in the day when holy crusades where the equivalent of the war against terror and seemed to be a blanket excuse to invade each other

http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/gaming.html

look at the reviews on this site there ridicules

especially the ones on the bottom of the page

fine.

You missed the concept of exactly of what "to each their own" really means.And spear-headed into the "im right, your wrong" spectacle.Stressing peace among mankind indeed. If your belief was so peaceful, it would sympathise with other beliefs.Is MY belief topdog? It is to myself.Can I justify my beliefs? Sure.But I don't have to.As to the flaw in biblical logic? What religion allows an all loving diety to allow such suffering mankind has had to endure?

Ultrajoe:
The very act of trying to define faith or science is stupid, as its nature is fluid and personal, like trying to nail jelly to the wall or catch a sableye without an ultra ball.

Hate to point this out, but defining science is neither stupid nor difficult. It's actually very easy: discovery through controlled repetition of experiments.

That said, GO YOU, questioning convention is a great thing to do.

lukemdizzle:
http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/gaming.html

look at the reviews on this site there ridicules

especially the ones on the bottom of the page

this has to be a joke right? MGS4 is a tool for training the armies of the antichrist?

My epiphanies only prevent generalization, i am well within my own boundaries to call this either the smartest piece of satire i have seen in a while or utter stupidity.

"snake tries to steal guns from the patriots"

i laughed, i really did.

Ultrajoe:

lukemdizzle:
http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/gaming.html

look at the reviews on this site there ridicules

especially the ones on the bottom of the page

this has to be a joke right? MGS4 is a tool for training the armies of the antichrist?

My epiphanies only prevent generalization, i am well within my own boundaries to call this either the smartest piece of satire i have seen in a while or utter stupidity.

"snake tries to steal guns from the patriots"

i laughed, i really did.

I found that site today and I think that it is for real (as sad yet hilarious as that is)
I actually feel bad for these people, there really missing out on some great games

Ultrajoe:

lukemdizzle:
http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/gaming.html

look at the reviews on this site there ridicules

especially the ones on the bottom of the page

this has to be a joke right? MGS4 is a tool for training the armies of the antichrist?

My epiphanies only prevent generalization, i am well within my own boundaries to call this either the smartest piece of satire i have seen in a while or utter stupidity.

"snake tries to steal guns from the patriots"

i laughed, i really did.

The truly sad part is that this is exactly how most of my Christian friends view games.

I think you make a very interesting point, though I would say that generalising by sticking all atheists in the "i hate them because they over-generalise and are close-minded" box is probably not the best way to go about renouncing labels - you know, using them to alienate one section of the population?

I think you're right, religion is inherently a personal thing and so long as it remains that way (ie. harmless - or mostly harmless for Douglas Adams fans) there is no need to try to nail someone else's jelly to your wall, so to speak. I'm an atheist, and I would like to think I'm broad minded taking your definition, because part of my atheism stems from the acknowledgement that we DON'T know everything about the universe - it can't be summed up in however many pages of any enlightened tome.

One of my problems with religious people is the cry of intolerance that so often comes from the extremely populous groups, and yet the same behaviour is not expected of themselves. I hate to say it but I find religion generally pretty far from logic in my own head but I don't ridicule people for it, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Scientologist, Mormon whatever. But it seems ok to alienate minorities if you're the big kid in town and you do it with the holier than thou mask on. Pick up your game people! I thought at least part of religion was about moralities.

Excellent interesting reading thanks.

Well, the futility (I think) in the Great Debate is the fact that no one can come around to other's veiws. It's not possible.
Explaination: Can you literally think like I do? See with my own eyes?
Definitions of all aspects of all religion are all subjective to you, as in yourself. Cept' for Love. Love is cool and universal.

Anarchemitis:
Love is cool and universal.

Music is too!

MaulMachine:

Ultrajoe:
The very act of trying to define faith or science is stupid, as its nature is fluid and personal, like trying to nail jelly to the wall or catch a sableye without an ultra ball.

Hate to point this out, but defining science is neither stupid nor difficult. It's actually very easy: discovery through controlled repetition of experiments.

That said, GO YOU, questioning convention is a great thing to do.

Patronizing much?

I meant from a philosophical and individual standpoint. Science is as easy to define as religion...

But as both are methods of reasoning with the universe, trying to push someone into one of three choices because they subscribe to one mode of thought when any choice on that matter is driven ultimately by someone's sentiment is ridiculous.
Its trying to stick definitions and beliefs into piles labelled 'science' and 'faith' that breeds debate.

Sorry, that could have been written infinitely better.

meglet:
though I would say that generalising by sticking all atheists in the "i hate(there was a 'd' here in the original) them because they over-generalise and are close-minded" box is probably not the best way to go about renouncing labels - you know, using them to alienate one section of the population?

the very next sentence is on the hypocrisy of that statement.

Hello gentlemen, I'm argumentum ad ignorantium. I like to prevent all debates concerning theism, agnosticism, and atheism from having any validity!

If you have any doubts about God then you are an AGNOSTIC NOT AN ATHIEST. I hate athiest because I fear them. Their thought has no boundaries. A Christian must respect the laws of God or else he can't call himself a Christian. If people think its O.K. to eat babies, A Christian will object because it's against God's laws. An athiest obeys no God, so it would seem right to him to eat babies or kill old people because their useless or practice some sort of Nazi racial purification because they have no higher authority telling them whats right and whats wrong. Normal people can't be trusted to tell the difference between right and wrong, thats why God gave us laws.

ANTI-SANTA:
Religion makes people do stupid evil things. If there is a god the one thing that would piss him off the most is the shit people carry out in his name. War, racial devition, violence.
Take the crusaids or the witch burning thingy. hundreds of thousands of people dead because a two thousand year old book told them to. Science isn't so good either. Science has probably killed more people than religion (gun powder, the A bomb that kind of stuff) so i dont really think its possible to take one side without contridicting yourself. that being said, this is why i completely severed myself off from either side. No longer religious and no longer care where science takes us next.
I live i quite, care free existance. Or at least i have ever since my cult failed.

No, religion gives people a very good excuse to do all the vicious, anti-social things they want without feeling guilty about it. It enables such behavior, maybe even encourages it, but it does not cause said behavior. People were killing each other long before they had gods to tell them to.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

As one who lives in firm atheism, I live by that. Marcus Aurelius was a genius.

Perticular Elk:
If you have any doubts about God then you are an AGNOSTIC NOT AN ATHIEST. I hate athiest because I fear them. Their thought has no boundaries. A Christian is most respect the laws of God or else he can't call himself a Christian. If people think its O.K. to eat babies, A Christian will object because it's against God's laws. An athiest obeys no God, so it would seem right to him to eat babies or kill old people because their useless or practice some sort of Nazi racial purification because they have no higher authority telling them whats right and whats wrong. Normal people can't be trusted to tell the difference between right and wrong, thats why God gave us laws.

Sir, I fear you for that point of view. Do you actually believe that a person, by virtue (or rather, vice) of not subscribing to a codified religion, is guaranteed to commit gross indecencies against the rest of the world?

Perticular Elk:
If you have any doubts about God then you are an AGNOSTIC NOT AN ATHIEST. I hate athiest because I fear them. Their thought has no boundaries. A Christian must respect the laws of God or else he can't call himself a Christian. If people think its O.K. to eat babies, A Christian will object because it's against God's laws. An athiest obeys no God, so it would seem right to him to eat babies or kill old people because their useless or practice some sort of Nazi racial purification because they have no higher authority telling them whats right and whats wrong. Normal people can't be trusted to tell the difference between right and wrong, thats why God gave us laws.

but... what happened to not generalizing...

there are nice atheists, they have moral boundaries just like anybody else, and some Christians do crazy things just like everybody else. Its down to individual people not the definitions we place on them.

Saevus:

Perticular Elk:
If you have any doubts about God then you are an AGNOSTIC NOT AN ATHIEST. I hate athiest because I fear them. Their thought has no boundaries. A Christian is most respect the laws of God or else he can't call himself a Christian. If people think its O.K. to eat babies, A Christian will object because it's against God's laws. An athiest obeys no God, so it would seem right to him to eat babies or kill old people because their useless or practice some sort of Nazi racial purification because they have no higher authority telling them whats right and whats wrong. Normal people can't be trusted to tell the difference between right and wrong, thats why God gave us laws.

Sir, I fear you for that point of view. Do you actually believe that a person, by virtue (or rather, vice) of not subscribing to a codified religion is guaranteed to commit gross indecency against the rest of the world?

You would think that someone who would say something that outlandish would have to be kidding, right? People warped enough to believe that rubbish scare me too.

I am not saying that Christians are perfect. I am saying there are things that I can't do because my God stops me from doing it. The reason I am a "good" person is because I fear God and want to respect him. What God does the athiest worship? They do not believe in such things as concrete right and wrong. They will go along with whatever the society says is right. Whether it be slaves or baby killing or the extermination of a certain ethnic group...

people dislike atheists because they don't understand us.

the main reasoning behead atheist logic is the fact that NOBODY knows for sure wether there is or isn't a god, so we think its better to salve life's great miseries with logic fact supporting evidence and testing of ideas in order to prove them. rather than blind speculation that were calling truth for no reason aka faith. when we depend on faith no questions would ever get answered and if it wasn't for science challenging the church we would never have discovered that the earth revolves around the sun.

Saevus:
Hello gentlemen, I'm argumentum ad ignorantium. I like to prevent all debates concerning theism, agnosticism, and atheism from having any validity!

you can try but you will fail miserably

It would seem i have failed in my goals, but at least i have found some personal consolation.

I will promise to never hate an ahiest again if you can promise me there is some system that keeps atheist from becoming depraved. How do I know that atheist won't try to destroy what we traditionally see as right and wrong? How do I know you won't try to destroy the system of right and wrong as some try today?