http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html

America, land of opportunity, economic protectionism and the raging paradox. This article had me in stitches. A topic must be provided, so assuming there isn't any argument over the above article's actual interpretation (hopefully there will be) the question might be: how did this happen? What will happen now? Please, let's leave the "America sux" banners at the door.

*hesitantly drops his "America sux" banner*
Well what the hell am I supposed to do now? Attempt intelligent discussion?
America has always had fairly close ties with France, though both sides probably wouldn't like to admit it right now. So I'm not suprised this happened, even if no-one noticed.
I find it odd that something like the times would call the french "frogs"

God damn, one of the best financial articles I've read in a while (since I'm doing business journalism now, I read at least two a day).

Lassiez-faire relies on everybody pulling in the same direction and nobody trying to rip off the little guy. Unfortunately, that happens and now the over ambitious spending in the past ten years coupled by the policy of shifting debt around by issuing bonds so that the company can put out documents that say that they have NO DEBT is coming home to roost.

Now, the yanks will have to acknowledge that the French were onto something. Oh noes!

The upshot of this is that with all of the wealth created in this period, the Fed can probably buy Wall Street out of the mess it's created so we'll get out of this. Of course, there'll be more regulation after this than a lawyer can poke a stick at, so say goodbye to massive growth for the next 20 years.

No matter, we still have that resources boom to see us through.

In closing, GO CHINA!

Does that mean that I get to have more holidays?

Hey Joe:
In closing, GO CHINA!

Hells yeah! Zhong Guo shi zui hao de guo jia zai shi jie shang!

I for one am still eating Freedom Fries.....

I'm an American, so don't get mad at me for what I'm about to do. I deserve this.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I'VE BEEN SAYING IT'S THE ANSWER FOR YEARS, AND NOW IT'S COMING TO PASS!!! IN YOUR FACE LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

That's all I wanted. Thank you for your time.

So the French, who have failed to take England after one hundred years, took America in a week?

*salutes* "Land of Hope and Glory...Mother of the Free!"

Heheehehheheeheheheh

I'm still looking for a country that will accept a southern californian. I have my A.A. in Liberal Arts and Science, and my B.A. in History. I enjoy spending my time reading on politics and economics, playing video games, practicing kendo and rollerblading. I am the youngest in my family and have learned to be the most responsible in my family through volunteering for the explorer scouts when growing up. I know what it is to have a near death experience by being hit by a SUV but have learned that the glass of life if overflowing and that one should not let fear control one's actions. I have served 3 years in retail not only mastering each product at Big 5 Sporting goods, Game Crazy, and At&t but also learned how to figure out what people want. I have also had the honor of working for the Ronald Reagan Library as an archivist. I am currently learning how to edit sound for a video podcast and edit video game videos.

So are there any countries for a dedicated person such as myself?

The_root_of_all_evil:
So the French, who have failed to take England after one hundred years, took America in a week?

*salutes* "Land of Hope and Glory...Mother of the Free!"

Heheehehheheeheheheh

I wonder how they feel after making all those French surrender jokes?

Amer:"Haha you always run away'
Fren:"We took your country in a week"

Good times...I think...

That guy who wrote it made everything sound like America done it themselfs. Is he a redneck?

EDIT: I mean the guy who wrote the story not the guy who made the thread, we already know hes one!

I am all about financial socialism and the US certainly needs to take a (small) turn to the left. Besides, France is cool.

RetiarySword:
That guy who wrote it made everything sound like America done it themselfs. Is he a redneck?

EDIT: I mean the guy who wrote the story not the guy who made the thread, we already know hes one!

That hurts right where my blackened husk of a heart used to beat.
I'd say the writer isn't a redneck and neither a socialist nor a totally free market type; they clearly just see the hilarity in all the free market/capitalism talk in America when it's so heavily protected and one of the central tenets of real capitalism - letting bad companies drown in their own stupidity - is abandoned when things get tough. Of course there's nothing wrong with averting a major economic crisis, but when you do you should admit you're not a laissez-faire type just to the right of Milton Friedman.

There's only one thing for America to do now. Communism all round!

wewontdie11:
There's only one thing for America to do now. Communism all round!

"They see us rolling with our comrades!!"

Saskwach:

RetiarySword:
That guy who wrote it made everything sound like America done it themselfs. Is he a redneck?

EDIT: I mean the guy who wrote the story not the guy who made the thread, we already know hes one!

That hurts right where my blackened husk of a heart used to beat.
I'd say the writer isn't a redneck and neither a socialist nor a totally free market type; they clearly just see the hilarity in all the free market/capitalism talk in America when it's so heavily protected and one of the central tenets of real capitalism - letting bad companies drown in their own stupidity - is abandoned when things get tough. Of course there's nothing wrong with averting a major economic crisis, but when you do you should admit you're not a laissez-faire type just to the right of Milton Friedman.

?? I love you realy.

So the US has had to take drastic measures after the speculative cowboys managed to shoot themselves and those measures show similarities to the french system? I'm not seeing an invasion here.

It's an ideological invasion. The American ideology is built on exporting economic free-market across the globe, and now it's in decline the French system is lookin' a lot more attractive. The irony lies in the freedom fry my friend.

Americans have two weeks holiday?
Two weeks?!
In the UK it's nearly at least a month unpaid leave.

I learnt a lot of new things in that article, cheers.

The Iron Ninja:
*hesitantly drops his "America sux" banner*
Well what the hell am I supposed to do now? Attempt intelligent discussion?
America has always had fairly close ties with France, though both sides probably wouldn't like to admit it right now. So I'm not suprised this happened, even if no-one noticed.
I find it odd that something like the times would call the french "frogs"

I believe the PC term for the French is "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys".

Wait. France? Socialist? I must have missed something, because the last thing that I heard, Nicolas Sarkozy was pushing forward a very capitalist agenda with the Lisbon Treaty. Do you Yanks have some sort of alternate definition for the word, "socialist", then?

RAKtheUndead:
Wait. France? Socialist? I must have missed something, because the last thing that I heard, Nicolas Sarkozy was pushing forward a very capitalist agenda with the Lisbon Treaty. Do you Yanks have some sort of alternate definition for the word, "socialist", then?

Yes. Yes they do.

I'd assumed the author had just read a social history book and left it there. sarkozy is indeed pushing for a more capitalist france, with education on his list of things to start privatising.
so i'm guessing the article conveniently ignored that but then the media likes to omit the truth.

Sarkozy is pushing for a more capitalist France, but it doesn't mean it'll happen. He'll get some concessions, sure, but not a lot because it'll be tough work getting the bill to pass through both houses.

If Bush pushed for Satanism to become the state religion, whaddya think will happen?

Remember, 'pushing' is not the same as 'doing'.

Besides, the US system is ULTRA CAPITALIST, so other systems of economic management look quite socialist in comparison.

Hey Joe:
Sarkozy is pushing for a more capitalist France, but it doesn't mean it'll happen. He'll get some concessions, sure, but not a lot because it'll be tough work getting the bill to pass through both houses.

If Bush pushed for Satanism to become the state religion, whaddya think will happen?

Remember, 'pushing' is not the same as 'doing'.

Besides, the US system is ULTRA CAPITALIST, so other systems of economic management look quite socialist in comparison.

That's a key point: a single leader does not make a government, and neither does a leader make popular opinion on governance. Sarkozy won't make a thoroughly capitalist France.

I'd say the author forgot that while France was still collaborating with the Nazis, an American President pretty much spelled out the principles modern France is constructed upon:

Roosevelt's "The Economic Bill of Rights"

Unfortunately, the American economy was so good in the post-war years that no one thought we'd ever need any sort of economic socialism, that the Good Times would never end, so none of this got put into practice that wasn't already in place during the Great Depression, like Unemployment Insurance and Social Security.

That, and no one stopped to realize that a good deal of America's post-war boom was due to social welfare polices like the G.I. Bill. If there's one good thing about the War In Iraq, it's that the next U.S. President can basically create de facto social welfare state in America through Veteran's Benefits because of how many Americans have 'veteran' status now.

Also, where the radicalized 60s generation in other countries didn't stop being radicalized, e.g., the Long March of the 68er's through German society, American Hippies turned into Yuppie Scum as soon as the supply of weed and acid dried up and they had to leave college, cut their hair, and get a real job.

Hey Joe:

Besides, the US system is ULTRA CAPITALIST, so other systems of economic management look quite socialist in comparison.

No, America's got a fair amount of social welfare. On the national level most of it is left over from Roosevelt's response to the Great Depression, although there is some new stuff like SCHIP.

There's also a lot done at the state level, like public subsidies for state universities.

EDIT: in fact, sometimes the U.S. government gets into trouble with the WTO for spending *too much* money on domestic industries: http://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpublications/press_releases/archive-2005/wto_cotton_ruling

afrophysics:
Americans have two weeks holiday?
Two weeks?!
In the UK it's nearly at least a month unpaid leave.

I learnt a lot of new things in that article, cheers.

You need to work in the public sector and ideally in a unionised role

I get 52 days paid vacation a year :)

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Hey Joe:

Besides, the US system is ULTRA CAPITALIST, so other systems of economic management look quite socialist in comparison.

No, America's got a fair amount of social welfare. On the national level most of it is left over from Roosevelt's response to the Great Depression, although there is some new stuff like SCHIP.

There's also a lot done at the state level, like public subsidies for state universities.

EDIT: in fact, sometimes the U.S. government gets into trouble with the WTO for spending *too much* money on domestic industries: http://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpublications/press_releases/archive-2005/wto_cotton_ruling

We're all aware of the huge subsidies for the agriculture sector, but a lot of your system is privatised like the health care industry (due to lobbying from pharmaceutical companies) or the education system where to get a decent education you have to go to a private school.

Then again, I'm commenting from outside the US, but it does seem that a lot of things that a socialised in other countries are privatised in the US. Maybe ULTRA CAPITALIST is taking things a bit far, but it's still the homeland of capitalism.

Well, on the bright side, my French will finally come in handy.

I can't wait until the Americans get socialised medicine. Oh how I will laugh. Take *that* health insurance companies, you money gouging wankers.

I don't know why everyone has so many issues with capitalism doing its job.

Burning sheep carcasses will be blocking all US highways within the month.

EDIT: Goddammit, the French don't always run away, the last foreign power to conquer the area that is modern France (before Hitler) was lead by Julius Fucking Ceaser (His second name really was 'Fucking', totally true fact). *Tries not to go off into the French did OK considering how badly their army was run at the time compared to the germans rant...*

Hey Joe:

We're all aware of the huge subsidies for the agriculture sector, but a lot of your system is privatised like the health care industry (due to lobbying from pharmaceutical companies) or the education system where to get a decent education you have to go to a private school.

One of the curious events in U.S. history is how health care came to be privatized. During WWII there were all kinds of government limits on how much you could pay a worker, as a means of keeping the cost of labor from spiraling out of control during a time when workers for anything but war materials were in short supply. One of the few ways that employers were allowed to compete with each other for workers was to offer bigger and better health care packages. So during that critical period following WWII--e.g., the UK's NHS was established in the 40s--America's workers already had more health care than they knew what to do with.

Then again, I'm commenting from outside the US, but it does seem that a lot of things that a socialised in other countries are privatised in the US. Maybe ULTRA CAPITALIST is taking things a bit far, but it's still the homeland of capitalism.

In a lot of ways America only went capitalist after WWII because things were going so well. It's interesting to compare the similarity of the development of social welfare institutions in America to the other Western liberal democracies like Worker's Compensation to the stark differences that develop after WWII.

In fact, it's interesting to look at the way the top tax bracket in the U.S. has varied over the years: http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Saskwach:
Of course there's nothing wrong with averting a major economic crisis, but when you do you should admit you're not a laissez-faire type just to the right of Milton Friedman.

A curious thing is that Milton Friedman is actually far to the left of what qualifies as 'right wing' in America today. Milton Friedman was actually the push behind a significant piece of social welfare called the Earned Income Tax Credit (although he was opposed to it in its final form because it merely added to other social welfare programs and did not replace them: Milton Freedman wasn't an enemy of social welfare, but of big government)

The actual history of American Capitalism is much more complex that a lot of people--i.e., current right-wing capitalists--want you to believe. Before Reaganomics there were Rockefeller Republicans. And the right wing often talks about a book--a book with a foreword in the 50th edition by Milton Freedman--called _The Road To Serfdom_ as a kind of sacred text. The interesting thing is what that book has to say. It contains passages such as:

But there are two kinds of security: the certainty of a given minimum of sustenance for all and the security of a given standard of life, of the relative position which one person or group enjoys compared with others. There is no reason why, in a society which has reached the general level of wealth ours has, the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom; that is: some minimum of food, shelter and clothing, sufficient to preserve health. Nor is there any reason why the state should not help to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance in providing for those common hazards of life against which few can make adequate provision. It is planning for security of the second kind which has such an insidious effect on liberty. It is planning designed to protect individuals or groups against diminutions of their incomes.

and:

It is important not to confuse opposition against the latter kind of planning with a dogmatic laissez faire attitude.

and:

For instance, to limit working hours, to require certain sanitary arrangements, to provide an extensive system of social services is fully compatible with the preservation of competition. There are, too, certain fields where the system of competition is impracticable. For example, the harmful effects of deforestation or of the smoke of factories cannot be confined to the owner of the property in question. But the fact that we have to resort to direct regulation by authority where the conditions for the proper working of competition cannot be created does not prove that we should suppress competition where it can be made to function.

Yup--believe it or not, this book used to be the touchstone for right-wing capitalists!

So really, the roots of American hyper-capitalism are not that deep. It enjoyed a brief period of favor at the turn of the 20th century, but really, it's a rather recent phenomenon that has very little in common with traditional right-wing thinking.