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Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1988 Joined: 24 Sep 2008     | |
Red Guard Posts: 3573 Joined: 27 Mar 2008    |
"We atheists"? Baloney! Atheism is the adherence to a single existential claim (roughly, "there is no god"), not an entire worldview complete with a little code of tolerance (or intolerance, for that matter). An "anti-theist" is an atheist. You are also an atheist. You don't get to own all of "atheism" any more than some "anti-theist" does. -- Alex |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2904 Joined: 12 May 2008    | Khell, I read your post, and I was wondering how you feel about Buddhism? Buddhists don't believe in any Dogma, and most I know are creationists. I was an Atheist/Agnostic for most of my life, but recently converted to Buddhism. I received loads of flack growing up for my "Devil worshiping ways". It's frustrating, but it's a product of a narrow-minded society unwilling to change it's mind. |
Red Guard  Posts: 4903 Joined: 14 Oct 2007   |
Yep. The rusted, pointy bit. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2884 Joined: 21 May 2008   | Is your Anti-theism is some kind of synonym of Nihilism? Note* I emphasize the words "some kind". |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 857 Joined: 24 Mar 2008     |
So nice to know we are just meaningless piles of pre-rotten flesh. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone gives a crap about anyone or anything else. I mean why worry about suicide, safety, or suffering when the populous of the world is little more than squishy moving rocks. For me, reality is such an absolute that it is an abstract concept. Really, explain the very nature of "reality". Because you cannot do it (no you can't) it is evidence enough for me to conclude that there is more to consciousness than we are aware of. While we are justifying our faiths. Atheism is a religious belief and your whole post is about how smart and awesome it is poorly hidden behind some sort of call for universal understanding. That is what bothers me about the subject. i.e. believe what you want, just stop thrusting it on the rest of us. You want to know why I dislike atheism, it's worse than Jehova witnesses for it and they go door to door.
Bull shit, for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Scientoligist that cries about how everyone else is going to hell (or whatever) there are like a half a dozen atheists looking at anyone who believes like they're mentally retarded, making christian jokes, or posting to forums about how horrible and discriminatory people who go to church are.
So you go to a persons house and instead of acknowledging their practices, traditions, and beliefs you choose to, in lieu of making the polite gesture of standing up as a symbol of this respect, you decide to act like a total douchebag and broadcast your problem with them begging the inevitable "what's the prob" question and wonderful topic of varying religious belief (great first date material) and you're all surprise she didn't give you her number. This was not a one time thing, and I'm sure it's happened to others of you who are atheists (Or even have different religions and have been turned away because of it.)
There it is. Rebelling against mom and dad and the good christian kids of the neighourhood. Gotta get that shot in. You just shot everything you had to say on the topic in the foot. More so. When I heard Anti-Theism I was given the impression of "not believing in religion" as opposed to "not believing in God" which I think is a much more intelligent sentiment given the corruption and excesses that are rampant throughout organized religion. Instead I am greeted by another kind of bible thumper. Believe what you want, but this thread is as bad as a christian coming onto the boards and discussing how he doesn't get "non-Christians" because they're so violent and uncaring. When you're eighty and at deaths door, kid, I'd be really interested to see how certain you are that your inevitable rot is it. |
Red Guard Posts: 3573 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 |
It seems more like a synonym for "Christopher Hitchens." ;) -- Alex |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1257 Joined: 14 Oct 2007    | I've been an atheist all my life, even as a kid I was an atheist. My folks never gave me any religious indoctrination of any kind and neither they bashed it. They just let me be a kid. When I was in primary school all my friends and my un-friends seemed to be doing their first communion(a catholic rite), or their confirmation (another one), so I naturally thought maybe I was missing on something, so my brother and I decided to start taking our catechism courses. The first day, me and my brother were sitting at church after my mum and dad took us there in sunday, and I remember the teacher gathered all of us (the kids) and told us to raise our hand if we were baptized, I immediately turned to look at my brother and then we both raised our hands immediately. Yeah, way to start our commitment with God. I know that's not exactly fighting the power but what can I say? they were more, and seemed slightly annoyed like us to be there in sunday. After that, lots of stuff that I don't quite remember, only that it was boring. Sunday after sunday our parents took us there, we even went on a church road trip (Groan) where people knelt and prayed in furor which we found weird. That kept going until my brother and I had enough. We didn't do anything useful and people kept telling us what to do and what not to do. Our folks were not forcing us, and at that point megaman 4 was a LOT more interesting than going to hell for misbehaving. So we dropped out. In the epic battle for our souls between Christ and Pharaoh Man the latter emerged as the clear victor. We figured out we could just continue later...later never came, mind you. We were to lazy for religion, it seemed. Now, flashfoward almost two decades, and I can say I made the right choice. Going to church and trying to commute with some thing I couldn't see but people kept telling me was awesome just didn't do it for me. Now, THAT was all before I actually showed any interest in the sciences. I'm not a rapist, a bigot a chauvminist, or even rude. After having studied sciences and nature, and stuff, and having had my brain throughly ass raped by quantum physics, I can safely say that just using my logic, I couldn't believe even if I wanted. Faith in the supernatural can't hold a candle to the belief in the fallible human will. The world is just a bunch of stuff going around with no preset purpose--just probabilities. What we perceive is an average of those probabilities. Period. That's what's been measured and that's what the science says--our only window of deeply understanding nature stemming from human means. And it isn't just me when I say "Period." If a God really wanted to make an ideal universe he fucked up big time with this one. Even if there were something analogue to God, that doesn't mean it would be anything like what we conjure in our own feeble brains so any attempts to define it fall naturally flat, even assigning to it qualities one usually assigns to a God. Now, on topic(sorry if I've bored you with my ramblings): Still, I have come up to people who do, indeed, treat me as if I was lacking something, and they take offense when I turn around their attempts to convert me by telling them to stop believing. México is a predominantly catholic nation, so amongst that environment one gets used to the world hell pretty fast, even as a kid people can give you attitude. I honestly believe that theists are wrong from the start in what they believe, but even if what they believe is a fiction to me, if it feels real to them and can somehow nurture a feeling of wholeness and human understanding, then they instantly qualify as fine people in my book. If you are a theist, I'll tell you that I'm less concerned in what you believe than in how you believe and how you act. I think I've got my priorities straight that way. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 625 Joined: 12 Jul 2008    |
Sledge hammers work a bit better. Not as pointy, but really heavy, and easier to insert. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 706 Joined: 8 Sep 2008   | extremes suck, and for the sheeple, cant we just make the forked end of the rake out of really splintery wood with a steel core? problem solved. or maybe a double headed rake of some sort, if were using them on ALL the sheeple wouldnt multiple heads be more effective. i view religious recruiters the same as i view telemarketers, things to be pitied, hated, or used to amuse myself depending on my mood. unless i ask, if i ask, well, thats like stabbing yourself in the leg, and only an idiot would ever do that. im not asking for us to all get along, but could we at least not try to live in homogenous societies? if everybody is the same then its fucking boring, no new ideas, more varied people, more varied philosophies=more varied ideas coming out of those people, im not saying we cant have a good old fashioned world war every onece in a while, im just saying that when everybody around you is the same you tend to become an idiot and very intolerant of anything even slightly different (adaptability is kinda one of the few things humans have going for us over, say, tigers or space-bacteria). why the fuck would anybody want that? when people were hitting things with sticks, hot science was literal, and the new fall fashion was goat, religion served its purpose, that purpose has been served, now we have complex languages, and non-religious organizations uniting us, at this point ridgid unforgiving intolerent religion serves only to divide us, and give us some good jokes... maybe. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 1 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | Atheist as well I go to a university on Australia where Christians like to walk around and ask people "what do you think about Jesus" and all this crap, and I've been very polite, which i think is important. It's one of those topics you just shouldn't touch, and any discussion or arguments with atheists/anti-theists vs christian's is not going to end well. Think about it logically, when was the last time you were having this discussion with someone of different beliefs, and they just suddenly went "My word, you're right, I've been wrong all this time, thanks for clearing that up" It just doesn't happen, it's always best just left alone. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 988 Joined: 22 Sep 2008    | I'm an anti-theist. Where do I line up for lynchings? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1257 Joined: 14 Oct 2007 |
You don't know anything about everyone, so for the sake of respect and actual coherence I advice you to save such petty remarks to when you are talking to people in person and see if you still care to hold them in contempt after being glared at like a fool.
Look, you are not making sense. You are overtly generalizing, in fact your whole post was full of overt generalizations. I'll leave it at that. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2538 Joined: 29 Mar 2008  | I like to think of myself a a skeptic. I believe nothing, but hope I can be proved wrong. This lets me see things I can't explain as having an explination, but not one i nessasarily understand. For example, radiowaves travel further at night. I don't know why, but I trust there's a scientific explination for it (dont post it here, i dont care, i really dont). that said, there's a flip side of the coin. In what I refer to as "the Becker Argument", what if god IS really speaking to people through their chemical imbalances? it's a possiblity I can't discount |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 354 Joined: 25 Feb 2008   | that seem rather unlucky about your encounters. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3664 Joined: 21 Jan 2008   | I'm of the belief that's something's out there, but I really don't care what, or who. That said, I frankly don't care what anyone else believes in, as long as they don't go hurting someone, or forcing their beliefs onto someone else. As long as people don't do those two things, I'm fine with them. As for your school experience Jobz, if I may ask, Did you go to a Christian school, or a government one? If it's a government school, and your political system means the Church is seperate from the State, then you could argue your work. Just putting it out there. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2111 Joined: 15 Jun 2008    |
FYI, Jews do not believe in Hell. Never have, never will.
*sigh* Sorry, I get incredibly anal when I see people misusing the term "agnostic".
This argument supposes that this is the case, but look! There are atheists running around who AREN'T stabbing each other for giggles and shits. Says more about you than about us, doesn't it? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1988 Joined: 24 Sep 2008 |
This is one argument that I've never understood. How does not believing in God necessitate that nothing has any value? Do you think that atheists somehow are incapable of feeling emotions or empathy just because they don't think that god exists? Why the hell are you bitching about atheists shoving their views on people in a thread in which the whole point is that there are plenty of atheists who are happy to live their own lives and let religious people live theirs?
How do you think that this ridiculous and pointlessly insulting statement gels with your accusations about atheists a few paragraphs earlier in your same post? Like I said, I'm happy to live and let live, but just so you know, it's exactly this sort of invasive, condescending, holier-than-thou, judgmental bullshit that makes people react angrily to the concept of religion in the first place. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 786 Joined: 17 Jul 2008    | My Dad made some comment recently about atheists being devil worshipers. I had to correct him. I was pretty appalled. My family is very Christian. Too Christian IMO. I stopped going to church because I just don't see eye-to-eye with all of the beliefs they portray. I'm doing my best to weed out all the garbage and evangelical talk that most Christians spew. I still believe in God, but I believe that he isn't the deity that he is credited to be. I think He is something far less, and our lack of understanding of Him has elevated him to embarrassing levels and our false interpretations make people spew bullshit like "God hates fags." I find these attitudes deplorable, and so far from (what should be) the truth, that I'm ashamed to even group myself with these people. Even my mom is uncomfortable with gays, and she the most compassionate person I know. PS: I've concluded that evangelizing is 1 part people wanting to share what makes them feel good with other people, and 10 parts archaic church teachings embedded into the religion to bring more people into service so that the church can get more money from donations. It makes far more sense than a deity condemning "His children" to everlasting torment for not believing in him. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1587 Joined: 5 May 2008    | OK, this is going to take a while to reply to, and in order to conserve space I have hidden the posts in spoiler tags. Click to read them. In response to your first point, at no time did I ever say life is meaningless, or that we are all "pieces of pre-rotten flesh" as you put it. I am an atheist, not an existentialist. You are putting words in my mouth. I am just as worried about safety and suffering as anyone else, but not because a "God" or more correctly a group of men who worshiped said God wrote a book telling me I should. I'm worried about these things because I'm a good, moral human being. You do not need religion to be moral, and you do not need religion to have a happy, fulfilling life. Suggesting otherwise is just silly. In response to your second point, no, I cannot define the nature of reality, no one can. Moving on. Thirdly, you claim that I'm simply saying how smart and cool atheism is, and I'm trying to hide but apparently failing. This is complete nonsense. I at no point ever even hinted that atheism is better or worse than any other religion. That was the exact opposite of the purpose of my post. You may have misunderstood me, or perhaps it came off that way. But it was not meant to. I actually sighed when I read this, which is a first for me (Sighing after reading a forum post I mean). Perhaps my memory is even worse than I thought, but I thought I has pretty much already said this. There ARE non-believers who look at religious people like that, but as I explained, the term for them is anti-theist, not atheist. Look it up, you'll see what I'm talking about. First let me make clear that this was not that girl's house, or anyone's house for that matter. It was a room in the back of a restaurant intended for large groups such as dinner parties. Second of all, even if it was her house I hardly think not praying makes me a "douche bag." If you had someone who was Hindu over for dinner, would you cook steak and ask him to eat it? I don't think so. Do you know why you wouldn't do that? Because it's against his religious beliefs. Just like praying would be against my lack of beliefs. It's actually you who would be being disrespectful for expecting me to pray. This would have actually been a good point if my parents were Christian. Unfortunately they are both atheists as well, so in my case, being religious would be an act of rebellion. Weird huh? So please, don't say things like that acting like you know anything about me. Because you don't. EDIT: Upon thinking about this more, I actually take offense to you referring to the Christian children of the neighborhood as "good". That implies that Christians are better than me, and that is very offensive. I'm not sure whether you meant it that way or not, but either way that's what it sounds like. This point actually makes no sense to me. At no point was I saying I didn't get religious people for any reason. I was saying that I can't understand why people in general (This includes atheists and people of all religions) can't be more understanding and respectful of other people's cultures and religions. Frankly I'll be lucky if I live to be eighty (What with me being an adrenaline junkie) but at whatever age I'm at, regardless of health or my current proximity to "death's door" my beliefs will hold true. Just as I'm sure yours will. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1379 Joined: 18 Sep 2008 |
a few things on why you're a dumbass 1. most people don't get a choice, moat Christians (and other religions but I have a particular disdain for Christians) have been conditioned since birth to believe their dogma without question and to dismiss everything else as being bullshit and blasphemy. that's why circumcision, daily prayer and other religious rituals start before the age of for lack of a better word reason. before you start questioning things so that it is so thoroughly ingrained in your mind that the idea of questioning it is almost synonymous with that of suicide. 2. Einstein wasn't religious, he was a Jew by birth (apparently Jew is a race for some fucked up reason) nothing more. as for me I'm a weird atheist, I am 100% certain that a god from any holy text on this planet, is impossible plain and simple, but I can understand the possibility of a god or gods that are something like the Greek-roman gods of old. I am also an anti-theist a lot of the time, I argue with theists yell at and make fun of creationists, etc. but that's only to be an ass hole to the idiots at the end of the day my philosophy is if you shut the fuck up, so will I. I've even had polite debates with my friends about their religion it was fun and civilized and I gained insight in to their customs. but yah most religious people are ass holes so I am an ass hole back to them. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1379 Joined: 18 Sep 2008 |
and rightfully so |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 645 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 |
We have a lot in common, then. I've tempered my Creationist-ripping tendencies for the sake of decorum and not killing the conversation at the dinner table, so to speak. But we atheists have to contend with one simple fact: our belief is no more proven, or provable, than any other religion. I'm okay with that. It keeps things polite. |
BANNED  Posts: 4378 Joined: 21 Aug 2008   | I'm a super duper mega militant anti-theist but it isn't socially practical to advertise this fact so I remain a polite secular American like many of my fellow countrymen. User was banned for: Microsoft and the World Domination of Gaming&Communication. (Permanent) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 7 Joined: 5 Oct 2008  |
There is actually a book devoted to explaining logically a case for believing in God. The book is called "The Language of God" and is written byFrancis S. Collins, a scientist. After reading it, there was no doubt in my mind. Francis S. Collins is best noted for his leadership on the Human Genome Project (HGP). |
BANNED Posts: 4378 Joined: 21 Aug 2008 | Could you succinctly summarize the explanation by Collins for us? I'm very interested in hearing this. And how does this change his explanation? http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060815_sam_harris_language_ignorance/ User was banned for: Microsoft and the World Domination of Gaming&Communication. (Permanent) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 7 Joined: 5 Oct 2008 | I dont think it is really possible to summarize it, because you have to start at the beginning and buold from there to have any idea what hes talking about. To start, essentially is the notion that the universe is far too complex to have not been intelligently designed. If you want to really understand, I would suggest you pick up a copy of the book and read it. I also want you to realize that I am not set in my ways. I was born Christian, and only started going to church at about the age of 12, under my own decision. I'm 15 about to be 16, and I am always trying to keep an open mind. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1016 Joined: 17 Jul 2008    | I would say that I am a Athiest, but i strongly believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want as long as they don't ever try to FORCE there beliefes on others. I'll sit and say grace with other people because it's polite (and i'm tired of hearing there BS). Even some of my Christian friends know my beliefs they say that I'll go to heaven because i'm apparently a good person (I took that as a complement). No matter how stupis I thiny your religion is I will always respect it (scientology not included, nor any religion that advocates violence agenst innocent people) - I was raised as a Chalothic(cant spell) but i jumped off that boat. -Pro Tip: try not to bring up religion... ever in real life. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3664 Joined: 21 Jan 2008 |
Pro-tip: Muslims can't eat pig-based products, not cow-based. I think you've mixed up Hinduism and Islam. |
BANNED Posts: 4378 Joined: 21 Aug 2008 |
As someone from a traditional Hindu family, I laughed so hard at this gaffe ;) User was banned for: Microsoft and the World Domination of Gaming&Communication. (Permanent) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 7 Joined: 5 Oct 2008 | The thing that annoys me most though, is when people ask me why I believe in God. I acutally conjure up a compelling and logical argument, only to either walk away, or make some sort of snarky stupid comment about how my argument makes no sense without giving any reason. EDIT: LIKE RIGHT NOW |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1587 Joined: 5 May 2008 |
Son of a...Fuck...oh well. Fixxd. |
Red Guard Posts: 3573 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 |
Well, to be fair, you haven't really posted your argument yet at the moment, you've just referenced a book. And the person engaging you already thrown out a link of his own, too. So, I think you're reaching a bit here. -- Alex |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 980 Joined: 24 May 2008 |
Nod's as good as a wink to blind bat, eh? Eh? Anyway, the premise for this thread is flawed. "Anti-theists," as you put them, are still atheists. You can't escape that any more than Christians can escape that dicks who happen to be Christians are still Christians. This thread should have been about the real, common enemies: dicketry and douchebagery. Seems to me it would have been so if you weren't selling anything. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 440 Joined: 10 Mar 2008 | So what does science say on how I should treat people? |
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I guess I come from a strange place because religion has simply never been a party of my life; occasionally I come across a Christian or two in Vancouver, but they're always the "yeah I believe in god, let's go to the pub and fornicate" sort. Which is good; my ideal world is one where everybody lets everybody else live their life however they want to.
On the Internet, where there are Americans, I tend not to mention that I'm an atheist, because of the hostile reactions you're bound to get, and the hostile counter-reactions you're bound to get from the anti-theists. I think both sides are retarded. The evangelists are stupid because, according to their own religion, God gave me free will just so that I could do this sort of thing; the anti-theists are retarded because all they're ever doing is starting conflict - nobody will ever convince anybody that their religion is right or wrong unless they're already questioning it. Even the "RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE SHEEP" argument is stupid because I could say all of the same things about capitalism and the majority of them would probably defend it to the death.
One guy posted about how we don't need more labels; that guy is wrong. Atheism is a response to religion; in retaliation, religious power has attempted to label atheism as violently reactionary. While those people do exist, it's perfectly legitimate for people like me to try to distance ourselves from people like that.