Jazzyluv:
because i think that people that believe in a God have made a stupid choice.... it's that simple.

I just dont see how you could not have made a stupid choice such as believe of god with the mountain of evidence against it, and the complete lack of evidence for it.

No one has provided a good argument for God based on LOGIC and FACTS.

That simple, if you believe in god, you are somewhat stupid.... regardless of intelligence.

Einstein was a dumbass too : )

you don't seem to understand why most people are religious, it is not because they choose to, it is because they are taught to, by their parents like their parents were taught and so on and so on. they are taught that it is fact and because of this they don't like to change their minds, most people don't like to admit they are wrong even if the evidence is in their face, that is why they argue, people don't like setting up a belief system only to have to change it. oh and einstein was a genius, probly a helluva lot more intelligent than you will ever be. oh and the people that are born again or converts... they are the dumbasses

Jobz, I could high-five you for making this thread.

I'm a Christian, born and raised (Ukrainian Orthodox if you wanna get into the nitty-gritty), and I've always been taught 2 rules above all else: "Live and let live" and "Love thy neighbour." As a result, I have never once tried to force my beliefs onto anyone else, and I fully respect a difference of opinion that anyone at all has. Hell, I think a bunch of the other faiths have some great ideas behind them, I'm just going with the one that works for me. Oh, and I believe in evolution.

A good majority of my friends, however, claim to be atheists, but if a discussion regarding religion ever comes up, they'll quickly dissolve into anti-theism. A particular instance was when one girl, let's call her Anne, I know was rambling about how all faiths are populated by bigots who just want to force their beliefs onto others, and went to some great lengths to make sure Christians were at the front of her rant. I looked at her and said that I didn't particularly appreciate her attacking my faith when, last time I checked, I've never done so to her and have been a pretty good friend. Anne then starts going on about how "Your religion is fucked up" and "they're all pushy" and "I don't know why you follow them." I then stop in my tracks and go "Anne, you were just bitching about Christians trying to force their beliefs on you for the past 10 minutes, and now look at what you're doing right here. Would you mind terribly if I put a big sticker with the word 'HYPOCRITE' on your forehead?"

The point is, it's the anti-theists that I think ruin atheism for people just as the evangelicals and extremists ruin other faiths.

Jobz, I could high-five you for making this thread.

I'm a Christian, born and raised (Ukrainian Orthodox if you wanna get into the nitty-gritty), and I've always been taught 2 rules above all else: "Live and let live" and "Love thy neighbour." As a result, I have never once tried to force my beliefs onto anyone else, and I fully respect a difference of opinion that anyone at all has. Hell, I think a bunch of the other faiths have some great ideas behind them, I'm just going with the one that works for me. Oh, and I believe in evolution.

A good majority of my friends, however, claim to be atheists, but if a discussion regarding religion ever comes up, they'll quickly dissolve into anti-theism. A particular instance was when one girl, let's call her Anne, I know was rambling about how all faiths are populated by bigots who just want to force their beliefs onto others, and went to some great lengths to make sure Christians were at the front of her rant. I looked at her and said that I didn't particularly appreciate her attacking my faith when, last time I checked, I've never done so to her and have been a pretty good friend. Anne then starts going on about how "Your religion is fucked up" and "they're all pushy" and "I don't know why you follow them." I then stop in my tracks and go "Anne, you were just bitching about Christians trying to force their beliefs on you for the past 10 minutes, and now look at what you're doing right here. Would you mind terribly if I put a big sticker with the word 'HYPOCRITE' on your forehead?"

The point is, it's the anti-theists that I think ruin atheism for people just as the evangelicals and extremists ruin other faiths.

Friggin browser, sorry for the double post.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I praise anyone who can put faith in something. Faith is a very powerful, motivational tool that can give one's life meaning and structure. Religion on the other hand, is one of humanity's worst creations. Religion enables a small group of people, usually through interpreting a text written by someone centuries ago, to manipulate and control a larger group through their beliefs. They tell them how to think, how to act, and what is right and wrong. The latter would ordinarily be viewed as a good thing, but unfortunately most religions consider anything that brings change or raises questions in the face of their beliefs to be wrong and therefore shun these ideas and consider them blasphemous. Just look at the drama surrounding evolution.

I'm an atheist. Always have been, always will be. I, however, am not in any way an anti-theist. I have had many a discussion with any number of people on this very topic, many of whom were devout theists. However, I never used these discussions as an opportunity to bash them for their beliefs. On the contrary, I used them as a way to enlighten them so that they realized they didn't need church or a religion to believe in their respective faiths. I would explain that, if they truly believed in a deity that created us, then they should accept that this deity would want us to learn, grow, and expand our knowledge and that science is the way to do this. I've had many of them truly open their minds and become much more accepting of things their religion would otherwise have told them to fear and shun. Many of them even stopped going to church, yet held onto their beliefs. Though they did start to reassess those beliefs. Not so much question whether they were wrong in their faith, but wrong in the interpretation of those beliefs.

"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him."
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."
"Science can destroy religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they have few followers now."
- all quoted from Arthur C. Clark

Aries_Split:
Khell, I read your post, and I was wondering how you feel about Buddhism? Buddhists don't believe in any Dogma, and most I know are creationists.

As misdirected as any other religion, but with much less bad-points and much more good-points than most. Also, one of the few "religions of peace" that, at least as far as I know, actually hasn't been responsible for mass murder, attempted (or successful) genocide, or other majorly non-peace thinks. So extra points for really being peaceful.

Labyrinth:

Khell_Sennet:

Labyrinth:
One phrase: "Fuck sheeple." And yes. Fuck them all. With a rake.

Just to be clear, we are talking about using the wide, pointy end of the rake right? It's just not the same using the handle, even if it causes splinters.

Yep. The rusted, pointy bit.

YAY! Pointy Rake Rape! Lets go round up some Sheeple.

Beowulf DW:
Sledge hammers work a bit better. Not as pointy, but really heavy, and easier to insert.

True, but people are heavy enough, adding a sledge's stone to that weight really reduces how long we can trot them around like handpuppets or one of those wicked mandarin dragon puppets.

Rankao:
So what does science say on how I should treat people?

You say that as if science is the opposite of religion.

I'm more or less an Agnostic. I believe there MIGHT be a higher power, but I honestly believe he does nothing for the human race. He could have made us, did his thing, and just let us go, kinda like a video game with kick ass graphics and great A.I.

I cannot believe in a specific religion because a large portion of wars have been started based off religion. Honestly, when I think of religion, I think of the massive amounts of racism, massive amounts of murder, and massive amounts of discrimination, all under "Gods" name, like it honestly makes it righteous. Southpark got it right if there is a heaven, gonna be like 10 people in heaven, everyone else in that hell place.

/endrant

I didn't make it through the rest of the thread but the opening post was a class act. I'm an atheist surrounded by Christians and the particular group I'm in is a pretty tolerant lot. On a personal level, I don't run into the the problem a lot but people do get confused about me not being raving mad against Christians. Some people don't understand why I don't live up to the typical atheist caricature. I deeply appreciate the distinction between atheists and anti-theists and I'm considering taking up the terminology.

Atheists can no more prove the non-existence of god than a theist can prove his existence.

To proclaim with certainty the non-existence of god is every bit as foolish as religion.

The bottom line is: NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

In my opinion, using terms to classify degrees to which a person does not believe in any form of divinity makes you as much of a tool as any other Theist.

Sigenrecht:
In my opinion, using terms to classify degrees to which a person does not believe in any form of divinity makes you as much of a tool as any other Theist.

How is whether or not you evangelize your atheist beliefs a classification of the degree to which you do not believe in any form of divinity?

Sigenrecht:
In my opinion, using terms to classify degrees to which a person does not believe in any form of divinity makes you as much of a tool as any other Theist.

But it does make things a ton easier.

There's nothing wrong with categorization provided there is room to pick and choose.

mtk2a:
Atheists can no more prove the non-existence of god than a theist can prove his existence.

To proclaim with certainty the non-existence of god is every bit as foolish as religion.

The bottom line is: NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

Pfff, everyone knows the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything and the reason for all the world's problems (especially Global Warming) is that there aren't enough pirates.

Yarrrrr

I have seen the light.

Pfff, everyone knows the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything and the reason for all the world's problems (especially Global Warming) is that there aren't enough pirates.

Pfff, everyone knows the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything and the reason for all the world's problems (especially Global Warming) is that there aren't enough pirates.

Pfff, everyone knows the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything and the reason for all the world's problems (especially Global Warming) is that there aren't enough pirates.

THE CHARTS DO NOT LIE.

Jazzyluv:
because i think that people that believe in a God have made a stupid choice.... it's that simple.

I just dont see how you could not have made a stupid choice such as believe of god with the mountain of evidence against it, and the complete lack of evidence for it.

No one has provided a good argument for God based on LOGIC and FACTS.

That simple, if you believe in god, you are somewhat stupid.... regardless of intelligence.

Einstein was a dumbass too : )

Wow you're an idiot .

Lets start off with that I'm more agnostic then anything else. I certainly am not Christian, but I'm not QUITE an atheist. I'm open to the possibility, but I need something definitive before I'd say someone's up there.

Now... I think the OP, though very well written, misses the point. It's not about atheism and anti-theism... it's simpler then that: People are intolerant and refuse to believe they are wrong about anything.

Take the genius I have quoted here, who has started by saying "Oh who can be stupid enough to believe in something with no proof?"

Have you done the research? Have you personally looked at all the scientific evidence that there may be something up there? Have you checked out every single potential 'Miracle' and come up with a scientific explanation on how it occurred or why it can't be true? Can you explain every psychic who has helped solve a crime, every ghost sighting, every encounter with the paranormal and say with absolute certainty and backed up by scientific fact that NONE of this is real or has connection to a life or being beyond this world? You can say they're all seeing things/crazy/lying/cheating - but I hope you have proof of this, or else you're just a hypocrite.

I personally can't disprove all those things. That's why I'm agnostic and not an atheist. And unless you can, you cannot legitimately claim that there is DEFINATELY nothing there. You can of course say it is your personal belief that nothing is there and that there is no doubt some explanation that is beyond us, but is not indicative of a higher being.

So how about you grow up a little and accept that other people may not see the world as you do and decide to interpret things a little differently before putting forth your woefully inadequate arguments.

mtk2a:
Atheists can no more prove the non-existence of god than a theist can prove his existence.

To proclaim with certainty the non-existence of god is every bit as foolish as religion.

The bottom line is: NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

Okay, lets pretend for a second that there is most definitely a god, not the god as Christianity teaches, but an all powerful deity that single handedly created the universe.
Now consider all the religions in the world, chances are that at if they were really lucky, one religion might have gotten it right. How is anyone to say that their version of it is correct? Because some person you didn't know thousands of years ago said so? Taking glorified speculation and defending it to (in many cases) the grave is just plain stupid.

Edit: After seeing the charts, I am now a staunch follower of the Pirate theory.

I live in a very very very religious area. Mostly mormon, but with a healthy smattering of christians of several flavors.

Anyways here are a few things that actually happened to me in school.

In science the teacher had us sort ourselves out by different characteristics. Eye color, hair color, birthdate, and finally. Religion. Knowing I was in a heavily religious group I walked off on my own to stand by myself. As I thought, I was the only Atheist in the class. A boy in the group nearest me, Catholics actually, looked over and asked me. "Why are you standing by yourself? What are you?" I replied, "I'm an Athiest." and to this he says "You worship the Devil!!!" I tried to explain to him that I was not a Satanist, but in fact did not believe in the Devil either. He apparently found this hard to accept and never spoke to me again.

One day in English, while debating some story, I can't quite remember which, the teacher brought up an allusion to the bible. We discussed back and forth and debated. Mostly between myself and a girl in front of me, Autumn (Who was actually a Wiccan) argued for Christianity, while I argued against. Then we actually reversed positions at one point where I argued the merits of one particular allusion while she argued against it. I personally enjoyed the debate immensely but apparently the Atheist and Wiccan knew much more about Christianity than all the Christians in the class. Afterwards the girl behind me asked what religion I was and I of course answered honestly that I was an Atheist. She said "What's that?" I told her that it meant I did not believe in a higher power. She apparently could not wrap her head around the concept. Hearing this a boy nearby said, "Even if you won't admit it you believe in a higher power. Everyone does." I told him "No really, I don't." he would not accept that such a fram of mind was even possible. Unlike the one from science class this boy decided to spend the rest of year trying to convert me.

The Science class was junior year in Highschool. The English example was freshman english.

The distinction you are looking for is Atheism vs Agnosticism.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

I am very religious, I also have nothing against Atheists. The problem when it comes to religion are the extremist of the groups. It seems that by not believing in what that other person believe to that person it is the same as telling them they are wrong. Why can't people let bygones be bygones?

When it comes to proving proof for a religion, the proof will always be put down as some religious babel or "only they can see it"

mtk2a:
Atheists can no more prove the non-existence of god than a theist can prove his existence.

To proclaim with certainty the non-existence of god is every bit as foolish as religion.

The bottom line is: NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

OMG YOU CAN'T DIRECTLY DISPROVE AN UNFALSIFIABLE CLAIM! THIS TOTALLY BLOWS ATHEISM OUT OF THE WATER!

That's not how it works, chief. I could trot out a bunch of Russell's Teapots and Flying Spaghetti Monsters and Invisible Pink Unicorns, but I think it's just easier to say that shouting "NOBODY KNOWS!" at the top of your lungs isn't smart, it's just sophistry.

-- Alex

Science does not adequately explain the existence of the universe or its inception. Nor does it explain the existence of physical law and natural order.

Neither, in my opinion, does it explain the purpose of Love, Beauty, or Creativity.

Chaos, is in itself, a form of order. Abstract, yet theoretically predictable.

These concepts provide evidence, but NOT proof, of some form of god.

There is no evidence or proof of the non-existence of god.

Therefore it becomes a matter of incomplete information. Mankind literally CANNOT determine whether god exists, or not.

Most people just can't accept this. Humans need to feel in control, and to do that they need to believe they have all the information. They CHOOSE to believe that god exists, or they CHOOSE to believe that god does not exist.

Very few are willing to accept the simple truth that they do not know the answer.

mtk2a:
Therefore it becomes a matter of incomplete information. Mankind literally CANNOT determine whether god exists, or not.

That's because you've defined "God" in terms of a set of unfalsifiable claims.

What do humans do when presented with an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't have the weight of hundreds of years of shared culture behind it? Oh, right, we dismiss it as bullshit handwaving. Sophistry.

-- Alex

Umm...What?

Science has adequately explained the existence of the universe and its inception.

That's a common Christian argument I hear, 'BIG BANG THEORY MAKE NO SENSE!"

That's because you can't be arsed to look it up.

It has explained Love, Beauty, and Creativity. They are emotions and moods, caused by chemicals released in our body.

In no way does that give evidence to a god.

One can define "god" any way you like. I use it as a placeholder for a hypothetical unknown force that may have created the universe and determined its function.

The big bang theory explains everything that happened following the big bang. It does not explain the reason for its initial existence, or the event itself.

Nor does it explain the specificity of physical law or natural order.

If you mean Physics, then you are correct.

Then tell me what happen before the big bang? What concept for god are you using?

To try to define such things is the useless for there is no right answer. Science is the way man sees the world not how he lives it.

*Clears throught*

Boson.

Boson happened.

Look, if your looking for concrete evidence for what happened before the big bang, your out of luck.

All I was saying was that Science has explained all the points you mentioned.

Christianity, has not.

My concept of god is a Pantheist's concept, as I myself am Buddhist.

mtk2a:
One can define "god" any way you like. I use it as a placeholder for a hypothetical unknown force that may have created the universe and determined its function.

If said hypothetical force cannot exhibit intelligence in the way we understand it (which is, in fact, only through interacting with it), what's the point of anthropomorphizing it?

In order to satisfy any kind of religious claim, you also have to be able to argue that that "god" resembles something from an actual religion. Or, hell, you'd have to at least be able to argue that that hypothetical force is endowed with some kind of moral qualities -- how about that?

-- Alex

Alex_P:

mtk2a:
One can define "god" any way you like. I use it as a placeholder for a hypothetical unknown force that may have created the universe and determined its function.

If said hypothetical force cannot exhibit intelligence in the way we understand it (which is, in fact, only through interacting with it), what's the point of anthropomorphizing it?

In order to satisfy any kind of religious claim, you also have to be able to argue that that "god" resembles something from an actual religion. Or, hell, you'd have to at least be able to argue that that hypothetical force is endowed with some kind of moral qualities -- how about that?

-- Alex

Which really begs the question what the hell is a "god"?

I like to think of it as a 4 dimensional being, if such a thing exists.

Alex_P:

mtk2a:
Therefore it becomes a matter of incomplete information. Mankind literally CANNOT determine whether god exists, or not.

That's because you've defined "God" in terms of a set of unfalsifiable claims.

What do humans do when presented with an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't have the weight of hundreds of years of shared culture behind it? Oh, right, we dismiss it as bullshit handwaving. Sophistry.

-- Alex

Well, saying there is absolutely no God is also an unfalsifiable claim. God is defined so vaguely and in so many different (often contradictory) ways that dismissing them all as completely impossible actually is about as silly as accepting one of the claims, especially considering all the God-esque things that might exist that we've never even thought of. And the idea of a God does have hundreds (actually thousands) of years of shared culture behind it, not that that proves anything.

mtk2a's point, I hope, isn't that God exists, or even that he's likely to exist, but that we need to keep in mind that we don't actually know. Carelessly dismissing the possibility of some intelligent entity that had something to do with creating our Universe, or Earth, or life, or something, is actually very unscientific.