Earthbound:

sneakypenguin:
Yes indeed, I wasn't going to pay 60 bucks just to be able to edit my office word 2007 documents for school(trial ran out and you can't even copy/paste from it) so why not download a key to unlock it? Or if i've seen a movie in theaters or have a copy and just want one on my lappytop for my breaks at school why not download it.

For the Microsoft Word issue, you could always just use OpenOffice.org, which is free. I prefer it over Word.

I tried open office but with college Powerpoint excel and access are required so a key gen download was necessary

I don't torrent because I don't know how. OH THE SHAME OF IT ALL!

That being said, I use Limewire for tracks I can't find in the stores.

jim_doki:
im sorry perfectimo, let me retry

No, I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

Fair enough.

I only torrent EA games... With good reason

Hey Joe:
I don't torrent because I don't know how. OH THE SHAME OF IT ALL!

That being said, I use Limewire for tracks I can't find in the stores.

Would you like me to teach you?

[/bannage attempt]

perfectimo:

stompy:
I don't like torrents, so no, I don't. I've had some rather bad experiences with them...

Virus?

Nah, my lack of experience with them made me find some ridiculous downloads, and my laziness kicks in... ultimately, I said "sod this" and went back to Limewire, which I know isn't any better, but at least easier to use.

stompy:

perfectimo:

stompy:
I don't like torrents, so no, I don't. I've had some rather bad experiences with them...

Virus?

Nah, my lack of experience with them made me find some ridiculous downloads, and my laziness kicks in... ultimately, I said "sod this" and went back to Limewire, which I know isn't any better, but at least easier to use.

I find the only problem you can encounter with torrents are the sites themselves. And just like limewire if you have a 59kb song or a 4GB album which is meant to contain 10 songs then you know to avoid.

perfectimo:
I find the only problem you can encounter with torrents are the sites themselves. And just like limewire if you have a 59kb song or a 4GB album which is meant to contain 10 songs then you know to avoid.

Eh, uh... first impression count for quite a bit./weak rational

Torrent sites that require registration and also have a very strict member/sharing policy can always be counted on to provide decent stuff. Public trackers, you takes your chances just like other file sharing sites/software.

glambo:
hey, i said i torrent. i torrent because i DONT FEEL LIKE PAYING. i have the money to buy a copy of this hard to find DVD off of Ebay for $60. instead, i do some "copyright infringing" and DL it for free. without paying.

Ooops, my bad. Between my skimming of posts, and how easily I get set off by some one's high-and-mighty speeches about p2p stuff, I missed something important there and fired off at the wrong person

jim_doki:
im sorry perfectimo, let me retry

No, I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

Ah HA! there you are!

(no you aren't quite high and mighty, I'm just trying to comically as possible, jump to the next viable target)

Signa:

glambo:
hey, i said i torrent. i torrent because i DONT FEEL LIKE PAYING. i have the money to buy a copy of this hard to find DVD off of Ebay for $60. instead, i do some "copyright infringing" and DL it for free. without paying.

Ooops, my bad. Between my skimming of posts, and how easily I get set off by some one's high-and-mighty speeches about p2p stuff, I missed something important there and fired off at the wrong person

jim_doki:
im sorry perfectimo, let me retry

No, I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

Ah HA! there you are!

(no you aren't quite high and mighty, I'm just trying to comically as possible, jump to the next viable target)

could someone translate this for me? i have a feeling im being attacked, but i dont know how or why...

stompy:

perfectimo:
I find the only problem you can encounter with torrents are the sites themselves. And just like limewire if you have a 59kb song or a 4GB album which is meant to contain 10 songs then you know to avoid.

Eh, uh... first impression count for quite a bit./weak rational

What?

File sharing is File sharing, whether you do it one song or one album at a time.

Whether you use bit torrent or direct download doesn't make any difference at all.

What on earth is this pun you speak of in the title of the thread? I see no pun at all, maybe it is a bad pun?

I don't do much file sharing because it takes too much effort to find a game, find the crack, store it on my computer, find the virtual drive software to mount the iso image, etc. etc. etc. and movies and tv shows I want to see I want to see with stereo high def sound and no artifacting, so I just go to the theatre or buy the DVD. Given the ammount of quality stuff out there it is a nominal expense.

jim_doki:
I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

As for you, sir, I challenge your assessment. File sharing does not take food out of the mouths of developers or cost jobs. I would like to see source evidence of this. Given that IP has very little practical value unlike, say, a chair which is a physical entity that uses materials and cannot be exactly replicated without further resource expenditure. Additionally people who file share inevitably spend the money they didn't spend on the game / movie / album on related industry. And most titles that suffer piracy are titles that inevitably have made their dev costs and significant profit on top, I submit that file sharing is hardly as devastating as you originally suggest.

jim_doki:
could someone translate this for me? i have a feeling im being attacked, but i dont know how or why...

Looks like they are trying to insult you, and when I used you as an example, sorry, it was only because you see a lot of forums go from: "Do you like Star Wars?" and people are saying yes and stuff and then people get off topic. Next comes "Not as good as Star Trek" then it becomes even worse and it goes like this "No way, Battlefield Earth is way better than The Matrix".

perfectimo:
What?

I didn't get a good first impression of torrenting, and thus do not like it. I'm trying to make a joke about how that would be a weak rational for me being unadaptive, so sorry it didn't work out.

stompy:

perfectimo:
What?

I didn't get a good first impression of torrenting, and thus do not like it. I'm trying to make a joke about how that would be a weak rational for me being unadaptive, so sorry it didn't work out.

Ah I see now, same thing happened to me, some people didn't check out the many definitions of what a pun is and accused me of not using one in the title. I suggest they go view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun

mark_n_b:

jim_doki:
I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

As for you, sir, I challenge your assessment. File sharing does not take food out of the mouths of developers or cost jobs. I would like to see source evidence of this. Given that IP has very little practical value unlike, say, a chair which is a physical entity that uses materials and cannot be exactly replicated without further resource expenditure. Additionally people who file share inevitably spend the money they didn't spend on the game / movie / album on related industry. And most titles that suffer piracy are titles that inevitably have made their dev costs and significant profit on top, I submit that file sharing is hardly as devastating as you originally suggest.

I see your "its not that bad" and raise you "its worse"
The ol' "They've made their money back" argument holds no water whatsoever. They are providing a service, and you should have to pay to use it. it's that simple. the more people get things for free, the less money made, the less art gets done.

I used to stack shelves for a living back when I was in a band. I had no money from my music, no label to speak of, so we did it ourselves, with my shelf stacking money. It cost me nearly 2000 to record a shitty five track demo. this is to pay for an engineer, time in the studio instrument rental, mastering, mic rental and a drum tuning. art designs were not covered, printing wasn't covered, this was just for the CD. 2000.

jim_doki:
I see your "its not that bad" and raise you "its worse"

I see your its worse and throw this ars technica article into the mix.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/dodgy-digits-behind-the-war-on-piracy.ars/1

I do appreciate that you have some industry experience. And I will go on record that, while I am playing devil's advocate a bit here I totally understand getting pissed off about someone taking your stuff when all you want is the recognition and payment due you for your work.

However...While it costs 2000 to hire an engineer and rent studio space and what not, how often was your music pirated and did this percentage of music piracy prevent you from doing another gig or laying another demo?

Additionally, given that everything was paid for in the creation of the original demo and the provided service was also concluded (in this case being musical) how much of the replication of your work has a retroactive impact on the monies already played and earned?

Being a game developer I almost yearn to find one of my games pirated, it's a sign of making it. And I feel it is a part of the industry us newbies need to accept and work with if we want a chance at the pie.

mark_n_b:

jim_doki:
I see your "its not that bad" and raise you "its worse"

I see your its worse and throw this ars technica article into the mix.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/dodgy-digits-behind-the-war-on-piracy.ars/1

I do appreciate that you have some industry experience. And I will go on record that, while I am playing devil's advocate a bit here I totally understand getting pissed off about someone taking your stuff when all you want is the recognition and payment due you for your work.

However...While it costs 2000 to hire an engineer and rent studio space and what not, how often was your music pirated and did this percentage of music piracy prevent you from doing another gig or laying another demo?

Additionally, given that everything was paid for in the creation of the original demo and the provided service was also concluded (in this case being musical) how much of the replication of your work has a retroactive impact on the monies already played and earned?

Being a game developer I almost yearn to find one of my games pirated, it's a sign of making it. And I feel it is a part of the industry us newbies need to accept and work with if we want a chance at the pie.

Tell me some of the names of the games you've developed, I've got uTorrent ready to go. Nah, I only take from the big wigs who's material is no longer available for purchase and isn't available on eBay and such. Oh I'm such a criminal denying these people money that actually can't be made, woe is I.

I give the free artists a chance to shine by listening to their freely distributed torrent music, as well as e-magazines and stuff that are distributed that way.

If we don't pay for the stuff that needs to be paid for, how do we encourage designers to make more? (rhetorical question)

perfectimo:
Tell me some of the names of the games you've developed, I've got uTorrent ready to go. Nah, I only take from the big wigs who's material is no longer available for purchase and isn't available on eBay and such. Oh I'm such a criminal denying these people money that actually can't be made, woe is I.

SO you're not interested in tracking down a copy of the "History of Gibbons" Educational Flash RPG I did for the town's library?

It's not nice to pick on people who are defending your point. And I do believe the point we were discussing was the impact of file sharing on the economic benefits that creative products produce.

What's with the lashing out anyways? It is not like we're accusing you (or anyone really) of anything. Are you upset because Jim doesn't believe in File sharing and apparently I'm saying you're doing it wrong?

This is a big issue, especially big given this is an online / gaming community, there's going to be a lot of different perspectives on it, if you're gonna get defensive maybe you shouldn't join in.

mark_n_b:

perfectimo:
Tell me some of the names of the games you've developed, I've got uTorrent ready to go. Nah, I only take from the big wigs who's material is no longer available for purchase and isn't available on eBay and such. Oh I'm such a criminal denying these people money that actually can't be made, woe is I.

SO you're not interested in tracking down a copy of the "History of Gibbons" Educational Flash RPG I did for the town's library?

It's not nice to pick on people who are defending your point. And I do believe the point we were discussing was the impact of file sharing on the economic benefits that creative products produce.

What's with the lashing out anyways? It is not like we're accusing you (or anyone really) of anything. Are you upset because Jim doesn't believe in File sharing and apparently I'm saying you're doing it wrong?

This is a big issue, especially big given this is an online / gaming community, there's going to be a lot of different perspectives on it, if you're gonna get defensive maybe you shouldn't join in.

Who did I pick on?
When did I lash out at Jim or amyone else for that matter?
When did you say I was doing it wrong?

I didn't think I would have to do this again but read the introduction. Here I have a present for you all. It's a thread I just made about "If piracy is wrong" go nuts:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.73561

perfectimo:

Who did I pick on?
When did I lash out at Jim or amyone else for that matter?
When did you say I was doing it wrong?

Well I'd say the whole "give me some of your games... no wait... fake forum crying as I ironically comment on what a huge criminal I am" constitutes picking, it wasn't being nice.

This rhetorical question shtick in lieu of saying something along the lines of "sorry, I didn't mean to sound like that, what I was actually saying is..." would be an excellent example of the lashing.

I did wsay "apparently" because it was the only possible reason I could fathom you being as impolite as you were, do you really want to know? It might take a paragraph or two to break it down for you.

I didn't think I would have to do this again but read the introduction. Here I have a present for you all. It's a thread I just made about "If piracy is wrong" go nuts:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.73561

that's also lashing, kinda of euphemistically calling us a little dense there (EDIT: and I see it is a thread you created after the whole piracy discussion began on this thread so you really don't have any basis to act like we're all stupid for not posting to it).

Thank you for including a link to your piracy thread, could you maybe explain to me how you thought that piracy issues would not come up in a thread about using a file sharing tool?

The mock politeness would be an example of me lashing out in response. If you're going to direct any further commentary my way in a pissy manner I'm not gonna respond, if you can be sociable and intelligent in expressing your POV, then fun can be had by all.

Earthbound:
For the Microsoft Word issue, you could always just use OpenOffice.org, which is free. I prefer it over Word.

I don't use torrents. Though I could see a use for them if whatever you want is too obscure to normally find, I would still feel like I was cheating the artist/programmer/maker_dude out of the money for their services.

jim_doki:
im sorry perfectimo, let me retry

No, I don't use torrents because I view copyright violations as wrong, and will have no part of them

OpenOffice.org is "free", so how do its creators pay for necessities? I'd also like to mention that they have offered the OpenOffice.org suite as a torrent.

I feel that people are making torrenting all-inclusive to pirating. Torrents were not originally designed to be used for pirating (to my understanding).

Gnisis:
If we don't pay for the stuff that needs to be paid for, how do we encourage designers to make more?

Because they like to. I take photos, not because I get paid (which I don't), but because I have fun. I guess I could get paid if I tried.

perfectimo:
I honestly was hoping people would say whether they did or didn't torrent, in hindsight I should've included a poll but I'm not sure if i can still do that.

Yes, I torrent (see above).

I began my pirating days when music started to go down the pan, when Lostprophets became just another skinny white boy emo band, when Linkin Park lost their edge and Chester Bennington(god knows what he was thinking when he did this)started singing soft songs, when Funeral For A Friend went all country on our asses, when Bullet For My Valentine went high pitched and started singing about crap but most of all when Trivium brought out "The Crusade", I think that album speaks for itself.

The last physical album I bought was Lostprophets "Liberation Transmission", "Never again" I said as I listened to all the joy their previous albums had bought me be flushed down the toilet to be replaced with Shitty McShitsenheimmer. So far I've only been proved right that music is getting worse, I breath a sigh of relief every time I download an album and it sucks because then I wouldn't have wasted money on it, I would be well pissed off if I did.

mark_n_b:

perfectimo:

Who did I pick on?
When did I lash out at Jim or amyone else for that matter?
When did you say I was doing it wrong?

Well I'd say the whole "give me some of your games... no wait... fake forum crying as I ironically comment on what a huge criminal I am" constitutes picking, it wasn't being nice.

This rhetorical question shtick in lieu of saying something along the lines of "sorry, I didn't mean to sound like that, what I was actually saying is..." would be an excellent example of the lashing.

I did wsay "apparently" because it was the only possible reason I could fathom you being as impolite as you were, do you really want to know? It might take a paragraph or two to break it down for you.

I didn't think I would have to do this again but read the introduction. Here I have a present for you all. It's a thread I just made about "If piracy is wrong" go nuts:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.73561

that's also lashing, kinda of euphemistically calling us a little dense there.

Thank you for including a link to your piracy thread, could you maybe explain to me how you thought that piracy issues would not come up in a thread about using a file sharing tool?

The mock politeness would be an example of me lashing out in response. If you're going to direct any further commentary my way in a pissy manner I'm not gonna respond, if you can be sociable and intelligent in expressing your POV, then fun can be had by all.

Okay I'll admit it it I didn't think I was picking on anyone in specfic there but...

I wasn't trying to insult or mock Jim in anyway I was, as it says, saying sorry for using him as an example of what a lot of forum do..

Also I didn't know apologising be being interpreted in a manner that you didn't try to convey is lashing.

I honestly was hoping people would say whether they did or didn't torrent, in hindsight I should've included a poll but I'm not sure if i can still do that.

No, never will.

perfectimo:
Okay I'll admit it it I didn't think I was picking on anyone in specfic there but...

I wasn't trying to insult or mock Jim in anyway I was, as it says, saying sorry for using him as an example of what a lot of forum do..

Also I didn't know apologising be being interpreted in a manner that you didn't try to convey is lashing.

I honestly was hoping people would say whether they did or didn't torrent, in hindsight I should've included a poll but I'm not sure if i can still do that.

And I will apologize for harshing on you a bit there.

Thank you for not doing the whole "try not to respond to this, dork" that is quid pro quo on the internets. I respect that.

As for the ebbs and flows of the thread, it is what happens on a discussion heavy board. And it is a good thing, it shows topic relevancy to the people who read the thread and that it is bigger than the potentially lockable and certainly dull "I use bitorrent" "I don't" sort of thread. So you coulda put a poll in, lesson learned, you'll do it next time, the posts would have still behaved in the same way.

In my first post I was responding to the general commentary on the thread with respect to piracy and I did mention that I didn't do much file sharing and why. For me the use of bit torrent in specific isn't as important to the nature of the thread, if you "shop at the internet store" it is quite likely you're using bit torrent, it is one of the most common of file sharers out there right now.

I know this isn't to do with the thread but I just realised, mark_n_b, that you are the only person who has messaged me and now we're are talking again, it may sound stupid but I was just deleting stuff and realised that the only non system mail is from you.

Personally I'm perfectly happy to DL music or anything else that I already own in order to avoid having to make a digital copy.

Torrents are good and bad. The good is that it's like doing window shopping. Looking and trying a product before you buy. Anyways most games when downloaded is more fun being played online and a copied game is less likely to work properly online when copied. The bad is it induces piracy and it's like giving power to the wrong people. Piracy in my opinion is when someone mass copies one product and sells it for his own benifit and buck. The occasional game download cannot do much harm if you own about 600 odd titles you paid with your hard earned cash.

I use Torrents all the Time.

I used to download Music and Movies, but now its mostly for legal stuff (yes, some Bittorrent Downloads are legal!!) TV Shows (why wait a year till the stuff comes to german free tv, with annoying Dubs and probably cut?) and occasionally the stuff i cannot find elsewhere.

I feel like i've grown out of downloading everything. I'm really proud to possess the stuff that i have, and since (a) i earn money now (b) i get most music i like as promos as i do reviews for mstos.de and (c) Especially DVDs get real cheap real fast, actually paying for stuff isn't really that much of an inconvenience ;)

blah blah blah

its not entirely due to people being evil and not paying for things because, somewhere, you put a price tag on them somewhere, it's likely that whatever you imagine is convenient for transactions for digital media, is so doomed for failure, it's not even funny.

though, people are evil, works for me, for any possible reason, cause, social problem, religious apostate, whatever.

evil. just do it.

if you can't work out how to use bittorrent, find a teenager or a six year old to show you. if your town's six year olds can't show you, you probably need to find a better quality of town :P

if that fails, youtube probably is an easier way to find people doing mundane everyday things on video, that won't require you to have real social interactions. if there's 12 year olds explaining how to mod a PSP with their mobile phone camera videos on youtube, watching the steps for downloading an episode of lost wouldn't be difficult to explain/watch either.

I don't get it 0_o? Where's the pun?

As for torreting, no, I don't. I've attempted to, mostly with single albums that I already own and such. But, I've gotten a few virus to so it naturally put me off.

I abide by the trial model.

I don't use torrents any more, however.

I also do not buy certain games as they have draconian DRM. I'm still in two minds about Red Alert 3. I don't have the internet at home any more so i can't perform the first activation.

I'm very much a man of principles. DRM is completely against mine.