Darth Nihilus was awesome...but most nihilists aren't like him ;(

or are they??

Travis Bickle:

So depending on which definition of the title is being addressed, atheism and agnosticism may lack the assumption that theism carries?

Is that the agreement are debate or argument produces; I hope it is because I'm getting tired.

Yes, depending on definition atheism does not carry an assumption.

http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1056
Last pane, gold.

I'm a nihilist/cynic/existentialist in that I consider any human action, creation or intention -and even life in itself- as ultimately without any meaning. There is no higher purpose, there is no ultimate goal and no greater good that is universal.

You are what you do. The only judge of your actions, life and intentions is, ultimately, yourself.

There is no definition to 'fail' in life. The person who has no ambitions, but tries to live his 75+ years the way he enjoys it is no 'better' than the man who tries to make a career, and surrenders everything else for it.

Society itself is abstract nonsense, and not something I can surrender my own individuality for. I am what I am, I do what I do. Before I die, I will be able to say that I enjoyed my life; even though I will regret things I did and especially regret the things I never did at all.

How others will see me, as a great man or as an abomination to whatever, does not concern me.

I am responsible for my legacy, even though my legacy in itself is just as worthless as anything else.

And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

Nihilism is pointless. Humanity should invest its resources into giving itself all the comforts reserved for gods: terraforming, cloning body parts to replace aging ones etc.

Spinozaad:
And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

But, why should you? I certainly don't mean to mock, but only to raise a question I have about Nihilism. I can see that humans are naturally compelled to indulge themselves, but is there any less value in a Nihilist who chooses a miserable and pathetic existence? Or kills himself? Or intentionally hurts others? If I were to subscribe to my own understanding of Nihilism, I would have to recognize that condoning or condemning any action is the result of artificial constraints. I would not condemn any act. So, if nothing matters, what is positive about a happy and fulfilling life?

hypothetical fact:
Nihilism is pointless.

Yes; and that is the point. Which is pointless. Which is the point. Which is pointless. Which is the pointlesspointpointpointalismpointificate-SYSTEM ERROR

You know those theists who just don't understand why anybody would want to be atheist because it just seems so depressing?

I'm like that for nihilism.

Rooster Cogburn:

Spinozaad:
And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

But, why should you? I certainly don't mean to mock, but only to raise a question I have about Nihilism. I can see that humans are naturally compelled to indulge themselves, but is there any less value in a Nihilist who chooses a miserable and pathetic existence? Or kills himself? Or intentionally hurts others? If I were to subscribe to my own understanding of Nihilism, I would have to recognize that condoning or condemning any action is the result of artificial constraints. I would not condemn any act. So, if nothing matters, what is positive about a happy and fulfilling life?

Perhaps that you want it. I'm pretty sure you can see no greater meaning in being kind or evil, but you could want someone to not be evil because it annoys/gets in the way of your life or your friends who add to your life.

You know those theists who just don't understand why anybody would want to be atheist because it just seems so depressing?

To be fair I laugh in the face of those theists and tell them that they're getting the short end of the stick.

Amnestic:

You know those theists who just don't understand why anybody would want to be atheist because it just seems so depressing?

To be fair I laugh in the face of those theists and tell them that they're getting the short end of the stick.

I just point out that I'm not actually depressed and I find joy in things that aren't omnipotent benevolent deities. It tends to confuse them.

Vaash Vincent:

Random argument man:
Nihilism

-Denial of existence of any basic for knowledge or truth
-Rejection of morality, religion, etc.

The only rule is personnal enjoyement.

I think the pessimism point can be answered with the lack of knowledge of nihilism. Let me elaborate with an example of a discussion.

Person A:Do you beleive in God?
Person B: No
Person A: Do you beleive there is a reason for life?
Person B: No, we have no purpose
Person A: So you don't beleive in anything like life, religion and the basics in society?
Person B: I beleive only on my own existence.

Even with this example, I don't think I can't really pinpoint nihilism.

That's solipsism.
Nihilism not only denies meaning but truth too.

That was a bad exemple.

There's still a theory that people are pessimistic of nihilism, because of the lack of knowledge.

Fight Club had a good portrait of nihilism.

Rooster Cogburn:

Spinozaad:
And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

But, why should you?
Etc.
...So, if nothing matters, what is positive about a happy and fulfilling life?

It's fun. It's that simple. I agree with nihilism, and I want to have a good, successful life. I want to use my life to make people happy. For the simple reason that it feels good. Why do you need a "higher meaning" to enjoy yourself? Why do you need to be told by an omnipotent being that hurting people is bad? Isn't the fact itself enough?

You know those theists who just don't understand why anybody would want to be atheist because it just seems so depressing?

I'm like that for nihilism.

That's not much of an argument. The same could be said for Santa Claus.

Break:

Rooster Cogburn:

Spinozaad:
And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

But, why should you?
Etc.
...So, if nothing matters, what is positive about a happy and fulfilling life?

It's fun. It's that simple. I agree with nihilism, and I want to have a good, successful life. I want to use my life to make people happy. For the simple reason that it feels good. Why do you need a "higher meaning" to enjoy yourself? Why do you need to be told by an omnipotent being that hurting people is bad? Isn't the fact itself enough?

But a true nihilist would say that there is no 'fact' that hurting people is bad. If there is no objective morality then infanticide, torture or cannibalism could be just as morally good as not hurting people. It just depends on the personal or cultural morality of the person carrying out the act.

Also many people who are not Nihilists would answer that you don't need an omnipotent being as a basis of morality. Theism vs Atheism is a whole different questions since there are other potential source for morality than God and nothing.

Rooster Cogburn:

Spinozaad:
And yes, I'm quite capable of enjoying my life.

But, why should you? I certainly don't mean to mock, but only to raise a question I have about Nihilism. I can see that humans are naturally compelled to indulge themselves, but is there any less value in a Nihilist who chooses a miserable and pathetic existence? Or kills himself? Or intentionally hurts others? If I were to subscribe to my own understanding of Nihilism, I would have to recognize that condoning or condemning any action is the result of artificial constraints. I would not condemn any act. So, if nothing matters, what is positive about a happy and fulfilling life?

No mocking considered, you raise a valid point.
Everything is ultimately pointless, including an enjoyable life. However, I'm still a human and predominantly controlled by instinct and urges. Including the urge to have as much pleasure and as little pain as possible.

Although pointless, I'd prefer a pointless existence of sex, drugs and general happiness over an equally pointless existence of brooding, despair and depression.

I totally agree with nihilism. Why if there is a god must we worship him? He expects us to live as he dictates while worshiping him with our own free will? He should just be satisfied that I'm not butchering random people on the street.

I'm a Nihlist in a sense that I believe that there's no true meaning to life. That said, I still think that its important for us to try to work it out because what I believe doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of things ;)

Nihilism should not be confused with atheism. When Nietzsche said that 'God was dead', he did not imply that there was no God, or that a God-entity had 'died'. He claimed that religious dogma had trapped and killed the original idea and interpretation of God.

While it's true that a nihilist is unlikely to believe in a higher being, it's not like they deny the possible existence of such a being per definition. It's just that they do not see a moral or higher goal to existence itself.

I met a guy on Youtube who was a Nihilist and he belived the entire human race was 'cancer' and everything was pointless, I don't think it's a good or healthy thing to believe. I HATE people who look at life in that way, I believe there is always a purpose in life, not to a god but YOU and the people around you, because we have a short time on this Earth and if they're going to use it to do nothing but be an asshole and complain then they probably don't deserve to be here. I sort of see the same thing for religious types if they're constantly wasting their time praying and singing to something that probably doesn't exist.

That's not nihilism. That's more of a unhealthy form of cynicism.

conqueror Kenny:
I totally agree with nihilism. Why if there is a god must we worship him? He expects us to live as he dictates while worshiping him with our own free will? He should just be satisfied that I'm not butchering random people on the street.

Ummmm, that's Atheism...

But a true nihilist would say that there is no 'fact' that hurting people is bad. If there is no objective morality then infanticide, torture or cannibalism could be just as morally good as not hurting people. It just depends on the personal or cultural morality of the person carrying out the act.

I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to the fact that pain hurts. Ergo, I don't want to do that, because I don't want to do that. Plus there's the the thing that baby-eating and general indiscriminate murder is both not fun for those involved, and ill-conducive to a stable society. And stable societies are easier to have fun in. Why do we need to have a reason for wanting as many people as possible to enjoy themselves?

Also many people who are not Nihilists would answer that you don't need an omnipotent being as a basis of morality. Theism vs Atheism is a whole different questions since there are other potential source for morality than God and nothing.

There are non-supernatural sources of morality? Such as?

Break:
I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to the fact that pain hurts. Ergo, I don't want to do that, because I don't want to do that. Plus there's the the thing that baby-eating and general indiscriminate murder is both not fun for those involved, and ill-conducive to a stable society. And stable societies are easier to have fun in. Why do we need to have a reason for wanting as many people as possible to enjoy themselves?

That line of reasoning obviously makes sense to you and so you can act in a social and friendly manner without an objective morality. However some sociopaths might argue that torturing or hurting others is their idea of fun. If there is no objective morality then neither of you is 'right'. The sociopath has just as much justification for his or her atrocities as you do for wanting a stable society.

Break:
There are non-supernatural sources of morality? Such as?

Utilitarianism ("Greatest happyness for the greatest number") doesn't rely on a belief in God. Neither does Social Contract Theory, which says that by living in society we accept certain limitations on our behaviour. Also, despite Kant's objections, you can use Reason as a basis for morality. In most circumstances acting morally is less risky than commiting an immoral act that the State or others are likely to punish me for, it could even have an evolutionary basis for this reason. All of these have their problems but so does God as the basis for morality.

That line of reasoning obviously makes sense to you and so you can act in a social and friendly manner without an objective morality. However some sociopaths might argue that torturing or hurting others is their idea of fun. If there is no objective morality then neither of you is 'right'. The sociopath has just as much justification for his or her atrocities as you do for wanting a stable society.

Which is what law is for. Most people - including the people in charge - want a stable society, so sociopaths have to find some other outlet, or go sit in prison.

Utilitarianism ("Greatest happiness for the greatest number") doesn't rely on a belief in God. Neither does Social Contract Theory, which says that by living in society we accept certain limitations on our behaviour. Also, despite Kant's objections, you can use Reason as a basis for morality. In most circumstances acting morally is less risky than commiting an immoral act that the State or others are likely to punish me for, it could even have an evolutionary basis for this reason. All of these have their problems but so does God as the basis for morality.

Oh, right, you meant that kind of thing. I would say those are more like sources of law, than morality. I define morality as something self-supporting, that doesn't require reason to be believed in. A law can be corrected or swept aside by logic, whereas morality is a product of your upbringing, and is ingrained in your personality.

Wait, when did "nihilism" mean "fuck morals"? Nihilism is thinking that there is no underlying truth or reason to the universe. It's accepting that there's no benefit to acting one way over another beyond what happens in the world we know. Therefore, since we live in a culture that promotes stability, and going against that would be problematic, we may as well go with it. Or you can try to change things. Whatever you want to do. If it was murderous baby-eating sociopaths in charge, then they'd be the ones setting the rules, and I'd be the one that wanted to change things. Or not, as the case may be. I might've been brought up to think that torture is A-OK, so I wouldn't care.

SecretTacoNinja:

conqueror Kenny:
I totally agree with nihilism. Why if there is a god must we worship him? He expects us to live as he dictates while worshiping him with our own free will? He should just be satisfied that I'm not butchering random people on the street.

Ummmm, that's Atheism...

Nope, atheisum completely rejects the idea of god. I believe there may be a god, but if there is we shoudn't be complled to worship him. The diffrence is small, but it's there.

conqueror Kenny:

SecretTacoNinja:

conqueror Kenny:
I totally agree with nihilism. Why if there is a god must we worship him? He expects us to live as he dictates while worshiping him with our own free will? He should just be satisfied that I'm not butchering random people on the street.

Ummmm, that's Atheism...

Nope, atheisum completely rejects the idea of god. I believe there may be a god, but if there is we shoudn't be complled to worship him. The diffrence is small, but it's there.

It's still not Nihilism, Nihilists don't believe in ANYTHING.

Break:

That line of reasoning obviously makes sense to you and so you can act in a social and friendly manner without an objective morality. However some sociopaths might argue that torturing or hurting others is their idea of fun. If there is no objective morality then neither of you is 'right'. The sociopath has just as much justification for his or her atrocities as you do for wanting a stable society.

Which is what law is for. Most people - including the people in charge - want a stable society, so sociopaths have to find some other outlet, or go sit in prison.

Utilitarianism ("Greatest happiness for the greatest number") doesn't rely on a belief in God. Neither does Social Contract Theory, which says that by living in society we accept certain limitations on our behaviour. Also, despite Kant's objections, you can use Reason as a basis for morality. In most circumstances acting morally is less risky than commiting an immoral act that the State or others are likely to punish me for, it could even have an evolutionary basis for this reason. All of these have their problems but so does God as the basis for morality.

Oh, right, you meant that kind of thing. I would say those are more like sources of law, than morality. I define morality as something self-supporting, that doesn't require reason to be believed in. A law can be corrected or swept aside by logic, whereas morality is a product of your upbringing, and is ingrained in your personality.

Wait, when did "nihilism" mean "fuck morals"? Nihilism is thinking that there is no underlying truth or reason to the universe. It's accepting that there's no benefit to acting one way over another beyond what happens in the world we know. Therefore, since we live in a culture that promotes stability, and going against that would be problematic, we may as well go with it. Or you can try to change things. Whatever you want to do. If it was murderous baby-eating sociopaths in charge, then they'd be the ones setting the rules, and I'd be the one that wanted to change things. Or not, as the case may be. I might've been brought up to think that torture is A-OK, so I wouldn't care.

But if morals must be self-supporting and supernatural, and Nihilism is the rejection of any underlying truth or reason, do the two not contradict each other? Wouldn't morals as you define them constitute an underlying truth? Thus, "fuck morals." What's left without morals is the society you describe, where people work for the collective good only because it feels good. A kind of social hedonism.

Also, you provide a strong argument about why a society of Nihilists would, or at least could, function very much like our own. But no one else is contradicting that. Rather, I only asked why it should choose to function like our own, and you have answered that and then some.

I was only asking if there is any reason why myself or other individuals should choose to act morally, or in any particular way at all, besides the tangible pressures of every day life.

I wish Nihilism wasn't such an awesome word. Maybe then more people would be inclined to dismiss it.

If there was no point to us, we wouldn't be here. I don;t kno why we are, but we are, so there's a reason. there's a reason for everything; nothing occurs simply by chance. At least that's what I think. But if you want to live your life with the belief that your efforts are pointless and you may as well die, then why live it at all?

Don't actually commit suicide because of that, if you are an absurdist. I don't want to be responsible for the deaths of a load of people, whether they were useless or not.

I suppose one could argue that isn't creating meaning, but simply following a desire.

Travis Bickle:
What if one were to choose to devote their life to, I don't know, rescuing kittens? Would they not be giving their life a meaning, that meaning being rescuing kittens? Does that not mean that meaning in life does exist?

I suppose one could argue that isn't creating meaning, but simply following a desire. I think nihilism doesn't deny the idea of trying to create an subjective meaning, but probably that that creation is pointless or meaningless.

Break:

I'm like that for nihilism.

That's not much of an argument. The same could be said for Santa Claus.

Well that wasn't an argument. I wasn't trying to 'disprove' nihilism

*Trots off to Wikipedia*

Interesting, and I can see how some could believe this sort of thing with all the bad stuff in the world, and the discoveries we've made over the past few centuries or so. Yet another answer to the great philosophical question of 'What's the point of it all?' I'm not at all surprised that some one came up with the answer 'There isn't one.'

We humans are thinky little creatures.