So serious question...can someone tell me something good about Obama? And I don't want stupid, empty statements I want legitimate, well thought out and well formed arguments informing me about something good that Obama has done, because as far as I can tell, he is a senator in one of the worst states (highest tax in nation, extremely high debt, worst educational system) and you can't blame republican's, there are none, so he's done nothing to change that...also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics. Finally, he has had very close relationships with known terrorists, and his father has been revealed to be close friends with the man leading the current Kenyan genocide, and his citizenship is being challenged...by a democrat...all because he won't produce his birth certificate or health records...

So someone please tell me, what about this man is appealing to you? Why is he fit to lead this country? Why are we not judging this man by the content of his character, as even MLK called for?

I'm Canadian, so I won't be voting in your elections, but if I was, you'd better believe I'd be voting Democrat.

Obama is the closest thing to a left-wing politician that the United States has had in decades, and as a dude who leans to the left, I think that is a good thing. His proposals on health care, the environment, and education all make more sense to me than the Republican alternatives. Furthermore, he's the only genuinely charismatic political leader to come along since I was born, in either the United States or Canada.

Furthermore, I'd ask the same question about McCain. Don't get me wrong; when I heard that McCain was likely going to be the name on the Republican ticket, I smiled. At the time, I felt that McCain represented all that the Republicans should be - he was the straight talker, a guy whose opinions were based on his experience, who did what he thought was right. Since then, however, I feel like he's realized that he's no spring chicken anymore, and that this is like as not going to be his last chance to be President, and as a result he's sold out to the worst, most petty and hateful elements of the Republican base. He used to be the straight talker, but I feel like he sold out, just so that he could have his dream of being President of the United States. Obama, on the other hand, is the same guy he always was - respectable.

Though people clearly are judging him for his character. You judged him right than. Americans say they are willing and accepting, but so many hate Obama out of his background. Just because he is black does not mean he must be a 100% African-American who had slave ancestors. He has been judged on that point which is stupid, no other president had ancestors who were slaves yet they did good in most cases, so why won't Obama.

54r93:
Finally, he has had very close relationships with known terrorists

Everyone in the Chicago educational establishment has probably has something to do with Bill Ayers. He's a prominent education professor at UIC. To say that Obama has a "close relationship" with him is a joke.

That allegation is as fake as the one about McCain starting a fire on the Forrestal. You don't believe that bullshit, do you? So why do you believe this bullshit?

-- Alex

I don't hate him because he's black, I never even said that. He's been judged because he is friends with Ayers, a man who bombed the pentagon and claimed he and the 9/11 bombers didn't do enough. He even announced his candidacy for senate at his house. he's friends with Farakan, head of the nation of islam, a terrorist organization. His pastor is racist, he hates whites, and prays death to America, and Obama is a deacon in his church, so he knows his pastor and his views...I don't give a shit that he's black...he could be whiter than McCain's hair I'd still think the man was evil...and no offense to you morning blues, but when the government decides to take over things that should be based on a free market, that's socialism...and that may fly in Canada but this is America, a country built upon the free market

What has he done? He is the senator of a cruddy state and hasn't done jack about it, but claims he's the candidate of change. What has he actually done, not what he says he'll do, but what he's actually accomplished. Forget McCain and what he has and has not done, I don't care. As it stands, I don't want to vote for either candidate so convince me Obama is a good candidate because I haven't found a single reason.

54r93:
and no offense to you morning blues, but when the government decides to take over things that should be based on a free market, that's socialism...

I disagree - Ireland has traditionally had a large amount of government-run enterprises, and to call that socialist would just be plain ignorant.

crimson5pheonix:
so convince me Obama is a good candidate because I haven't found a single reason.

I don't want to. I'm a McCain supporter and I just can't understand why people blindly support Obama, because I too cannot find a single good thing about him. That's why i made this topic, so I could see if anyone really knew what's so great about Obama I'm honestly asking people to convince me to change my mind and no one's seems able to

54r93:

crimson5pheonix:
so convince me Obama is a good candidate because I haven't found a single reason.

I don't want to. I'm a McCain supporter and I just can't understand why people blindly support Obama, because I too cannot find a single good thing about him. That's why i made this topic, so I could see if anyone really knew what's so great about Obama I'm honestly asking people to convince me to change my mind and no one's seems able to

Sorry I wasn't that clear, I wasn't aiming that comment at you. I'm on your side. Sorry for the confusion.

It's cool it looked like I needed to clarify anyway, no ones given a response close to what I thought I asked for haha

You could start blindly supporting him like so many people just over his skin colour? Lets face it, people are obviously doing that. We don't want another George Bush incident (it relates in some way).

If you specifically desire to not like a given candidate, then you won't.

I'm from the Netherlands, and over here practically everybody would vote for Barack Obama. Even our own Christian conservatives (excluding the SGP-party, who are more Christian and more conservative than anything the American 'Moral Majority' can come up with) would vote for Obama.

Why?

Because Obama is so much more in line with our own perception of how a good politician should be. True, he's not left enough for our own true left-wing, but he's the best candidate in years. We in Europe, or at least in the Netherlands, have grown sick and tired of the Bush administration. It's a myth that 'we' 'hate' America. We hate how the Bush administration has presented itself to and upon the world. We'd like to see a change in the American policy, one we feel Obama can bring.

The best thing that could happen to the USA in their foreign relationships is Obama as president, McCain is different from Bush, but still a Republican. And to be honest, the Republican party makes many of us Dutchies barf.

I'd like to close with a comment on the whole mud-slinging thing. Over here, we usually (not in all cases, though) judge our politicians on their trustworthiness and programme. Not because they might or might not have done something in their personal lifes. "The Party" is more important than he or she who represents it. Still, this might be the case because we have a multiple party-system, and not just two.

Being from Illinois and Cook county(highest tax in nation WOOHOO) and near Chicago, I'll tell you something good. Unless Senator Obama becomes dictator of Illinois, none of the things you mentioned will change for at least 3 decades.
Simple reasons:
The educational system is flawed in so many ways that nobody, NOBODY on the planet would be able to think of a solution. Try tackling the issue from one side, and a world of pain bites you in the ass from the other.

Taxes. I'm not a political man and I don't know what power Obama has, but cook county board president Todd Stroger increased the taxes, and people voted for him. Oh and when some people on the board protested, Stroger's henchmen quickly silenced them. Its completely corrupt.

Debt: The city wastes assloads of money because of corruption. The city gets so much revenue, yet spirals deeper into debt. Oh and don't think the politicians are going to stop fattening their wallets because of that, they'd sooner reduce the number of CTA trains and increase fares.

In short, unless Obama has a federal investigation find proof of corruption without being detected, nothing will change. Everyone is so deeply entrenched that its difficult to get anything done.

54r93:
I don't hate him because he's black, I never even said that. He's been judged because he is friends with Ayers, a man who bombed the pentagon and claimed he and the 9/11 bombers didn't do enough. He even announced his candidacy for senate at his house. he's friends with Farakan, head of the nation of islam, a terrorist organization. His pastor is racist, he hates whites, and prays death to America, and Obama is a deacon in his church, so he knows his pastor and his views...I don't give a shit that he's black...he could be whiter than McCain's hair I'd still think the man was evil...and no offense to you morning blues, but when the government decides to take over things that should be based on a free market, that's socialism...and that may fly in Canada but this is America, a country built upon the free market

See, here's the problem: you don't want a real conversation.

If you wanted a real conversation you'd read up on some of this stuff for ten minutes instead of just repeating it indiscriminately.

There's no point in saying anything good about Obama because you will respond with "Yeah, but what about <ridiculous claim>? Doesn't that kinda eclipse his good aspects?"

There's no point in saying anything bad about Obama because you will also respond with "Yeah, but what about <ridiculous claim>? Isn't that a lot worse than the thing you mentioned?"

-- Alex

ok, all I seem to be getting is that Obama's a liberal and that's why he's good. And that's great if you don't live here, but what's he gonna do for an american that should make me want to vote for him? As far as I can tell he's not really helping anyone unless they're unbelievably poor, and he's hiking up taxes on some of the higher rungs of the middle class. I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class

54r93:
I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class

I'd kill for that amount of money.

snowplow:

54r93:
I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class

I'd kill for that amount of money.

I would too, I'm just saying I don't feel that gets you out of the middle class

Was going to mention/dismiss the "terrorist" relationship, but Alex beat me to it. Props for the ninja skills. :-p The guy is a well-known professor in Obama's home state. Any relationship Obama has with him is no worse than one that the guy's co-workers have with him, so the allegations are ridiculous.

As for Obama's dad, whatever relationships that guy had are irrelevant because Obama only ever saw his father a few times. It's highly unlikely that Obama has ever met the guy, and even if he has it doesn't matter. Kenya has a whole host of social and political problems, and Obama's dad was one of the people trying to help rebuild the nation after it gained its independence. It makes sense that his dad is going to have known and met people who wind up becoming leaders, even those that wind up leading a bad group of people.

And y'know, I'm more disappointed in McCain than anything else. I used to like the guy and was rooting for him in 2000. But he's taken his previous track record and integrity and completely smeared his reputation. His ads have been so false that Karl Rove - the guy behind the negative ads for Bush - has said himself that McCain's gone too far. Personally I think that's saying something.

And McCain's choice in Palin is a complete and utter joke. If Obama dies at least we've got Biden to take over, but if McCain goes (and given his age and the immense stress of the White House it's very, very likely he will) we get someone who has no idea what's going on and is one of the most socially conservative people we've seen in national politics in recent memory. Add in the fact that her family situation is dubious and her attempted removal of her sister's ex-husband from his job just for getting a divorce, and I'm seeing some morally questionable actions.

So for me a part of it is integrity. I think the Democratic campaign has handled itself much better than the Republican one. McCain has gotten so obsessed with winning this that he's completely given up his personal integrity and Palin IMO had little to begin with.

He's not McCain.

Alex_P:

54r93:
I don't hate him because he's black, I never even said that. He's been judged because he is friends with Ayers, a man who bombed the pentagon and claimed he and the 9/11 bombers didn't do enough. He even announced his candidacy for senate at his house. he's friends with Farakan, head of the nation of islam, a terrorist organization. His pastor is racist, he hates whites, and prays death to America, and Obama is a deacon in his church, so he knows his pastor and his views...I don't give a shit that he's black...he could be whiter than McCain's hair I'd still think the man was evil...and no offense to you morning blues, but when the government decides to take over things that should be based on a free market, that's socialism...and that may fly in Canada but this is America, a country built upon the free market

See, here's the problem: you don't want a real conversation.

If you wanted a real conversation you'd read up on some of this stuff for ten minutes instead of just repeating it indiscriminately.

There's no point in saying anything good about Obama because you will respond with "Yeah, but what about <ridiculous claim>? Doesn't that kinda eclipse his good aspects?"

There's no point in saying anything bad about Obama because you will also respond with "Yeah, but what about <ridiculous claim>? Isn't that a lot worse than the thing you mentioned?"

-- Alex

And here's our problem, you don't or can't say anything good about him. All your doing is resorting to "what's the point, you're so immature" response which is flimsy at best. 54r93 is pro McCain but I'm undecided as it stands all I have so far are reasons not to vote for Obama because you haven't given me a reason to vote for Obama.

54r93:
ok, all I seem to be getting is that Obama's a liberal and that's why he's good. And that's great if you don't live here, but what's he gonna do for an american that should make me want to vote for him? As far as I can tell he's not really helping anyone unless they're unbelievably poor, and he's hiking up taxes on some of the higher rungs of the middle class. I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class

Well, I live in America and I support whoever is not the Republican. Since when is a yearly income of under $250,000 "unbelievably poor?" That's almost everybody. That seems awfully out of touch. Class labels aside, I have no problems increasing taxes for those with incomes even that high.

Like I implied before, there is no real discussion here. You already hate Obama, and you are not willing to change or add to that opinion. Not that you should, except that you made it the premise of your thread.

You seem to be more biased against the democratic/socialist ideas then you are against Obama, While there is nothing wrong with that, you must accept that for a left wing person Obamas left wing ideas seem right ( no pun intended).

Time to debunk your arguments

54r93:
Finally, he has had very close relationships with known terrorists,

Obama was 8-years old when Ayers was a part of the Weathermen. Ayers has long since become a respected member of his community.

and his father has been revealed to be close friends with the man leading the current Kenyan genocide,

His dad abandoned him and his mother when Obama was 2.

54r93:
and his citizenship is being challenged...by a democrat...all because he won't produce his birth certificate or health records...

Long since debunked.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

So someone please tell me, what about this man is appealing to you? Why is he fit to lead this country?

Because he can make sound judgments and has a good head on his shoulders. We need someone like that after Dubya totally jacked up the country for the past 8 years.

Because he is not McCain.

And that's a solid endorsement for us overseas. McCain and what he represents is more of current America.

Have you had a look at current America? I believe it is cheaper to buy your dollars than actual Kitty Litter.

Obama, change or not, is a step in the right direction. This links to terrorists bullshit is a dying attempt by his failing opponent to smear him. So what if he's friends with a terrorist!? Im friends with a Sadist and a Parking Officer! They have lives outside of the reasons we hate them, Ayers could be a great guy, knowing a terrorist is not indicative of being a terrorist.

Edit: Posted in the wrong topic

crimson5pheonix:
And here's our problem, you don't or can't say anything good about him. All your doing is resorting to "what's the point, you're so immature" response which is flimsy at best. 54r93 is pro McCain but I'm undecided as it stands all I have so far are reasons not to vote for Obama because you haven't given me a reason to vote for Obama.

Bullshit about Ayers and Farrakhan aren't reasons not to vote for Obama. They're outright lies. Despicable, obvious lies.

It's like if I told you not to vote for McCain because McCain is going to institute a presidential droit de seigneur, allowing him and his entire Cabinet to have sex with a woman on her wedding night (in order of presidential succession, of course).

Dismissing the bullshit is the first step to actually talking about anything. Otherwise you're going to waste your whole time bickering about which candidate supports child rape (hint: neither).

-- Alex

Alex_P:

crimson5pheonix:
And here's our problem, you don't or can't say anything good about him. All your doing is resorting to "what's the point, you're so immature" response which is flimsy at best. 54r93 is pro McCain but I'm undecided as it stands all I have so far are reasons not to vote for Obama because you haven't given me a reason to vote for Obama.

Bullshit about Ayers and Farrakhan aren't reasons not to vote for Obama. They're outright lies. Despicable, obvious lies.

It's like if I told you not to vote for McCain because McCain is going to institute a presidential droit de seigneur, allowing him and his entire Cabinet to have sex with a woman on her wedding night (in order of presidential succession, of course).

Dismissing the bullshit is the first step to actually talking about anything. Otherwise you're going to waste your whole time bickering about which candidate supports child rape (hint: neither).

-- Alex

I don't care about that, I care about the fact that as far as I know he's done jack squat and is promising the world. Why do you care about him and why should I care about him. I'm going to look up and see if there's a pot party candidate because when he/she says s/he'll legalize pot, I can believe s/he will. I have no reason to believe McCain or Obama will do what they say they'll do and I perceive that as a fail on both their parts.

then tell me something about Obama's polices that helps america. And be specific, don't just say "they do"

54r93:
then tell me something about Obama's polices that helps america. And be specific, don't just say "they do"

What part of his healthcare plan do you not understand?

You could vote for him because he offers an alternative to McCain...?

I'm sorry I've fallen down on my reading lately and don't know enough about the situation to give you a response, but I can tell you that you are going about this topic the wrong way. If you really want to know, don't ask the question with a closed mind.

54r93:
ok, all I seem to be getting is that Obama's a liberal and that's why he's good. And that's great if you don't live here, but what's he gonna do for an american that should make me want to vote for him?

That suggests you've already made up your mind, that and the fact that you have dismissed the legitimate answers people have given you with more and more outrageous claims about his character, without directly responding to aforementioned claims.

If you are really curious as to why someone would vote for him, ask in a gentler manner and don't jump on people as soon as they reply. Although this seems to be a moot point as it looks like you're already going to vote McCain no matter what anyone says.

crimson5pheonix:
I don't care about that, I care about the fact that as far as I know he's done jack squat and is promising the world. Why do you care about him and why should I care about him. I'm going to look up and see if there's a pot party candidate because when he/she says s/he'll legalize pot, I can believe s/he will. I have no reason to believe McCain or Obama will do what they say they'll do and I perceive that as a fail on both their parts.

Here's a sketch of his voting record, make up your own mind about what's worthwhile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bills_sponsored_by_Barack_Obama_in_the_United_States_Senate

FactCheck.org is a good way to check claims.

OpenCongress.org is a good way to check voting records. Try looking at laws by issue.

-- Alex

Alex_P:

Dismissing the bullshit is the first step to actually talking about anything. Otherwise you're going to waste your whole time bickering about which candidate supports child rape (hint: neither).
-- Alex

I wouldn't be so certain, I heard that Obama is actively training a squadron of giant bats to swoop down and steal the souls of school children as soon as he is elected, and then sell them on eBay to Haitian drug dealers.

EDIT-Left out my response to that, woops:

54r93:
also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.

As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.

Alex_P:

crimson5pheonix:
I don't care about that, I care about the fact that as far as I know he's done jack squat and is promising the world. Why do you care about him and why should I care about him. I'm going to look up and see if there's a pot party candidate because when he/she says s/he'll legalize pot, I can believe s/he will. I have no reason to believe McCain or Obama will do what they say they'll do and I perceive that as a fail on both their parts.

Here's a sketch of his voting record, make up your own mind about what's worthwhile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bills_sponsored_by_Barack_Obama_in_the_United_States_Senate

FactCheck.org is a good way to check claims.

OpenCongress.org is a good way to check voting records. Try looking at laws by issue.

-- Alex

i now have the facts I desire. I can now say, I definitely won't be voting for him but that's beside the point as you get an e-cookie for actually giving a good response. I congratulate you.