crimson5pheonix: i now have the facts I desire. I can now say, I definitely won't be voting for him but that's beside the point as you get an e-cookie for actually giving a good response. I congratulate you.
Rooster Cogburn: Well, I live in America and I support whoever is not the Republican. Since when is a yearly income of under $250,000 "unbelievably poor?" That's almost everybody. That seems awfully out of touch. Class labels aside, I have no problems increasing taxes for those with incomes even that high.
The problem with increasing taxes on earners over 250k(which is less than you make for being a DM for Target) is you hurt small businesses more. Obama said he would lower capitol gains taxes but small business don't pay those they pay income(which is that 250 k bracket) among FICA,sales and all the other assorted taxes.
Anybody hear his new plan to offer businesses a 3000 dollar tax credit if they higher full time employees. That is just laughable I guess he doesn't realize that to higher people you have to be making more money and be needing more productivity. and that 3k isn't gonna cover the cost of adding a new full time worker. A lowering of the corperate rate would be better to help companies out(at least according to my econ professor)
54r93: ok, all I seem to be getting is that Obama's a liberal and that's why he's good. And that's great if you don't live here, but what's he gonna do for an american that should make me want to vote for him? As far as I can tell he's not really helping anyone unless they're unbelievably poor, and he's hiking up taxes on some of the higher rungs of the middle class. I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class
Well you're definitely well off if you make a quarter million a year. My parents make a little over $60,000, and that's with both my mom and my dad working full-time. And where I live, that's actually not too bad.
I dont know if Obama's policies will help me or not...
But I sure as hell know John McCain continuing the trend of saying fuck the middle class, and pour money into businesses does not help me one bit.
-edit- just out of curiosity, what would you say is middle class?
crimson5pheonix: i now have the facts I desire. I can now say, I definitely won't be voting for him but that's beside the point as you get an e-cookie for actually giving a good response. I congratulate you.
4 minutes. That was quick!
What led you to make up your mind?
-- Alex
I was really already decided against voting for him, I just wanted someone to actually answer the this thread.
54r93: also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.
As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.
Because we love freedom over equality.
The freedom to send the US economy into a downward spiral and take down the global economy with it?
Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
sneakypenguin: Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
Anyone who thinks the current economic crisis has one single cause is a fool.
sneakypenguin: Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
Anyone who thinks the current economic crisis has one single cause is a fool.
-- Alex
Alright then yes there are many things that effect it. Oil prices, global market downturn, the economic cycle etc. I was just saying that the whole mortgage/banking deal has a whole lot to do with govn't intervention. I shall ignore the insult
54r93: ok, all I seem to be getting is that Obama's a liberal and that's why he's good. And that's great if you don't live here, but what's he gonna do for an american that should make me want to vote for him? As far as I can tell he's not really helping anyone unless they're unbelievably poor, and he's hiking up taxes on some of the higher rungs of the middle class. I personally don't think you're rich if you're making above 250 k a year, i think that's the higher end of middle class
Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
The downward spiral started way, waaaaaay before that. You're horridly mistaken if you think this "credit crisis" is the extent of our economic woes; EDIT: but I see you acknowledge that. It all goes back to the national debt. These low income loans were advocated back when the government still enjoyed that nice economic surplus and could *afford* a bailout if needed. One Iraq War and several tax cuts later, the country could no longer afford a bailout, but these bad loans were still going out. The government could have just as easily nipped this crisis in the bud if they regulated the markets properly. This is not an example of socialism fucking up the country, it's an example of the country fucking up socialism.
Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
The downward spiral started way, waaaaaay before that. You're horridly mistaken if you think this "credit crisis" is the extent of our economic woes; EDIT: but I see you acknowledge that. It all goes back to the national debt. These low income loans were advocated back when the government still enjoyed that nice economic surplus and could *afford* a bailout if needed. One Iraq War and several tax cuts later, the country could no longer afford a bailout, but these bad loans were still going out. The government could have just as easily nipped this crisis in the bud if they regulated the markets properly. This is not an example of socialism fucking up the country, it's an example of the country fucking up socialism.
Govenment should have never advocated those loans in the first place. Then they would never have had to regualte the market :) It's not the governments job to be a safty net.
Indeed a downward spiral brought about by government advocating home loans for low income people who then when housing prices drop(like it did when the houseing/flipping market buble did) were left in the hole. So not freedoms fault.. governments fault for messing with a market.
The downward spiral started way, waaaaaay before that. You're horridly mistaken if you think this "credit crisis" is the extent of our economic woes; EDIT: but I see you acknowledge that. It all goes back to the national debt. These low income loans were advocated back when the government still enjoyed that nice economic surplus and could *afford* a bailout if needed. One Iraq War and several tax cuts later, the country could no longer afford a bailout, but these bad loans were still going out. The government could have just as easily nipped this crisis in the bud if they regulated the markets properly. This is not an example of socialism fucking up the country, it's an example of the country fucking up socialism.
Govenment should have never advocated those loans in the first place. Then they would never have had to regualte the market :) It's not the governments job to be a safty net.
sneakypenguin: Govenment should have never advocated those loans in the first place. Then they would never have had to regualte the market :) It's not the governments job to be a safty net.
1) Then who's is it? 2) Either way, it's their job to make sure their country does not need one.
54r93: also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.
As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.
Because we love freedom over equality.
There's no such thing as equality.
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
Just to be sure, if you ever happen to hit rock bottom due to unforseen circumstances, you'd be okay if nobody gave a crap about you, right?
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
Just to be sure, if you ever happen to hit rock bottom due to unforseen circumstances, you'd be okay if nobody gave a crap about you, right?
Yes, I would.
And then I'd work to become a contributing member of society again. I'm not helpless.
I believe the only people the government should support are people who CANNOT work. Injured people, those not mentally fit to work, and children who are without guardians (Thus, foster families should gain federal funding, provided certain guidelines). If you're fit to work, you better get an education, and work. Also, I know someone is going to bring up "BUT THE AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM SUCKS". Well, it doesn't. It's not as bad as everyone says it is. You get what you put in. Alot of teachers are just lazy, and don't do their jobs, thus, we gain stupid acts like "No Child Left Behind". (Yes. I think it's stupid.)
sneakypenguin: Govenment should have never advocated those loans in the first place. Then they would never have had to regualte the market :) It's not the governments job to be a safty net.
1) Then who's is it? 2) Either way, it's their job to make sure their country does not need one.
1. Ours,the individual, the companies, mine. If I make a risky investment I should be the one to pay for it, not rely on govn't to say we're sorry you messed up, here is a check to make you feel better :)
Also to Acervusvlos, Amen the last three lines made me smile "I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort."
I tried to become a teacher, and I got demotivated by the fact that teachers are forced to do too much for too few benefits. They get horribly paid, and those uninterested schmucks will get through college anyway, so why bother? It's not like your stimulated to do your job. The government force-feeds you the stuff you have to teach and those little brats think they earned the right to have a say as well. In my eyes it's a miracle that people still want to become a teacher. Alas, that's the Dutch situation.
In any case, I now see your point. I do not agree with it, but that's what happens, eh?
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
Just to be sure, if you ever happen to hit rock bottom due to unforseen circumstances, you'd be okay if nobody gave a crap about you, right?
Yes, I would.
And then I'd work to become a contributing member of society again. I'm not helpless.
And what do you think people actually in that hypothetical situation are doing?
And while you were at rock bottom, would you not appreciate Welfare to help you get by?
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
There is no such thing as equality in deed. However, is there such a thing as freedom? In your current system, someone at the bottom has close to a zero chance to get closer to the top. Why? Because they can't afford any kind of schooling, so their kids will have to do with elementary. This leads to them getting low-wage jobs because they aren't able of doing anything else. Which leads to them staying at the bottom.
And don't bring the american dream into it. That idea is FUBAR, and has been since it was first thought of. Yes, sure, once every blue moon, someone will be able to enter the top of society. That's called luck.
Your importance is equal to the work you put into your life, and the lives of those you wish.
I don't want my taxes going to someone who only has to call into the local wellfare office and say "HEY, I CALLED TWO FOLKS AND ASKED FOR A JOB. CAN I GET MY CHECK?"
Don't say "THAT'S RARE", because Wellfare is a flawed and corrupt system. It's the ultimate form of racism. It keeps minorities poor (As they make up the majority of the American "Lower Class")
I hate Socialism because it assumes that everyone is equal, and we aren't. That's a dream of the founding fathers that will never come true. All men are NOT created equal, but all men can BECOME equal by making themselves important through effort.
Just to be sure, if you ever happen to hit rock bottom due to unforseen circumstances, you'd be okay if nobody gave a crap about you, right?
Yes, I would.
And then I'd work to become a contributing member of society again. I'm not helpless.
And what do you think people actually in that hypothetical situation are doing?
And while you were at rock bottom, would you not appreciate Welfare to help you get by?
I've lived in poor neighborhoods. I've known people on welfare. I had 5 neighbors on my street, none had a job, all blew their checks on booze, cigarettes, and car parts. No. I'm not joking, or being stereotypical. I also have had financial troubles, and when I have them, I start doing what smart people do. I save, I ration, and I work harder. Maybe instead of enjoying a weekend, i'll go mow lawns in nearby neighborhoods. Heck, by the end of a day, at 10$ a yard, I can make about 150$. That's enough for a months worth of groceries.
There is no such thing as equality in deed. However, is there such a thing as freedom? In your current system, someone at the bottom has close to a zero chance to get closer to the top. Why? Because they can't afford any kind of schooling, so their kids will have to do with elementary. This leads to them getting low-wage jobs because they aren't able of doing anything else. Which leads to them staying at the bottom.
And don't bring the american dream into it. That idea is FUBAR, and has been since it was first thought of. Yes, sure, once every blue moon, someone will be able to enter the top of society. That's called luck.
My parents couldn't afford to send me to college. I am managing just fine. I pay about 100$ A month into my loans I took out, and if I continue making a good amount of money, I can have them utterly paid off in a year after college.
Good morning blues: I'm Canadian, so I won't be voting in your elections, but if I was, you'd better believe I'd be voting Democrat.
Obama is the closest thing to a left-wing politician that the United States has had in decades, and as a dude who leans to the left, I think that is a good thing. His proposals on health care, the environment, and education all make more sense to me than the Republican alternatives. Furthermore, he's the only genuinely charismatic political leader to come along since I was born, in either the United States or Canada.
Furthermore, I'd ask the same question about McCain. Don't get me wrong; when I heard that McCain was likely going to be the name on the Republican ticket, I smiled. At the time, I felt that McCain represented all that the Republicans should be - he was the straight talker, a guy whose opinions were based on his experience, who did what he thought was right. Since then, however, I feel like he's realized that he's no spring chicken anymore, and that this is like as not going to be his last chance to be President, and as a result he's sold out to the worst, most petty and hateful elements of the Republican base. He used to be the straight talker, but I feel like he sold out, just so that he could have his dream of being President of the United States. Obama, on the other hand, is the same guy he always was - respectable.
Agreed on all counts, except I'm not very left wing at all.
There is no such thing as equality in deed. However, is there such a thing as freedom? In your current system, someone at the bottom has close to a zero chance to get closer to the top. Why? Because they can't afford any kind of schooling, so their kids will have to do with elementary. This leads to them getting low-wage jobs because they aren't able of doing anything else. Which leads to them staying at the bottom.
And don't bring the american dream into it. That idea is FUBAR, and has been since it was first thought of. Yes, sure, once every blue moon, someone will be able to enter the top of society. That's called luck.
I don't know where you live but education is free through highschool and I can go to a 2 year school for free if I keep a 2.75 gpa after that it's called a student loan(you don't start to pay back till you graduate) People expect things to just be handed to them the american dream is work a whole lot of it. If i have to work 50 hours a week and go to school at night I will do it. MrAcervusvlos: You sum up my belief on life, work and individual responsibility Kudos to you
There is no such thing as equality in deed. However, is there such a thing as freedom? In your current system, someone at the bottom has close to a zero chance to get closer to the top. Why? Because they can't afford any kind of schooling, so their kids will have to do with elementary. This leads to them getting low-wage jobs because they aren't able of doing anything else. Which leads to them staying at the bottom.
And don't bring the american dream into it. That idea is FUBAR, and has been since it was first thought of. Yes, sure, once every blue moon, someone will be able to enter the top of society. That's called luck.
My parents couldn't afford to send me to college. I am managing just fine. I pay about 100$ A month into my loans I took out, and if I continue making a good amount of money, I can have them utterly paid off in a year after college.
4 minutes. That was quick!
What led you to make up your mind?
-- Alex