Smoking in Public Places and The concept of Choice Theft

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I have just noticed that there is a group on facebook hoping to have 1 million people protest in favor of allowing smoking in pubs, bars and night clubs and I thought I'd put in my two cents in a place that actually has some intelligent people.

Let me start off by saying that people SHOULD be allowed to smoke if they damn well want, and that moderate exposure to second hand smoke won't kill anyone (proven fact, or so I here) so that in front of buildings rule is stupid. I am not against specific "smoking clubs" or sealed smoking rooms, even if they do make the place smell a bit tobaccoy and I feel sorry for the poor smoke + coffee shop owner who now gets only 1/3 the business he used too.

HOWEVER...

I feel that smoking indoors should be prohibited, banned... whatever. Why?

Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

I am extra defensive because I'm an asthmatic, and hence when smoking in bars was the norm, I would rarely go, and neither would any of my friends since the entire place would be full of assholes lighting up. I and other non-smokers should be able to make our own damn choice.

Basically, smoking is your choice, it is a non-essential enjoyment like alcahol, it is a leisure activity, it is NOT a lifestyle choice, that's like saying being an alcaholic is a lifestyle choice. It is not one of my enjoyments, in fact, it threatens my health actively through my asthma.

PedroSteckecilo:
I have just noticed that there is a group on facebook hoping to have 1 million people protest in favor of allowing smoking in pubs, bars and night clubs and I thought I'd put in my two cents in a place that actually has some intelligent people.

Let me start off by saying that people SHOULD be allowed to smoke if they damn well want, and that moderate exposure to second hand smoke won't kill anyone (proven fact, or so I here) so that in front of buildings rule is stupid. I am not against specific "smoking clubs" or sealed smoking rooms, even if they do make the place smell a bit tobaccoy and I feel sorry for the poor smoke + coffee shop owner who now gets only 1/3 the business he used too.

HOWEVER...

I feel that smoking indoors should be prohibited, banned... whatever. Why?

Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

I am extra defensive because I'm an asthmatic, and hence when smoking in bars was the norm, I would rarely go, and neither would any of my friends since the entire place would be full of assholes lighting up. I and other non-smokers should be able to make our own damn choice.

Basically, smoking is your choice, not mine, feel free to kill your lungs, but doing it indoors and in sealed venues means you are taking my desire not to smoke and my ability to breath freely away from me.

On this argument one day they will ban music because its too loud or your playing while I'm trying to watch football.

so, you're saying that if i have the right to choose to smoke, you should have the right to choose not to inhale my smoke?

*applauds*

I love the idea

my only problem is it's kinda like having cake and eating it too

this is why i love, LOVE those nicotine inhalers

Interesting thoughts, after reading I can't help but agree with you. Besides, when a argument has the words "go fuck yourself with a switchblade" that argument wins hands down.

The thing is smoking is a LEISURE ACTIVITY NOT A LIFESTYLE CHOICE! I can move away and in an outdoor area that is possible, but when I'm indoors I can't escape the stuff. It's something that directly effects the health of some people with lung problems such as myself.

BaronAsh:

On this argument one day they will ban music because its too loud or your playing while I'm trying to watch football.

I would say it's more akin to standing in a bar with a portable stereo on high, your making the decision for everyone else in the place.

I really don't see why smoking rooms and designated smoking areas aren't a reasonable solution for everyone.

Good morning blues:
I really don't see why smoking rooms and designated smoking areas aren't a reasonable solution for everyone.

See I do consider that a fair solution, I recall one bar I used to go too had a non smoking downstairs and a smoking upstairs... which was fine, really. I could sit downstairs and enjoy my drink, they could enjoy their smoke and booze upstairs.

Give smokers bars, give non-smokers bars. Everyone deserves a choice. I think this thread will get ugly fast.

chronobreak:
Give smokers bars, give non-smokers bars. Everyone deserves a choice. I think this thread will get ugly fast.

That solution won't work because it will almost always be to the owner's financial advantage to open a smoking bar, and then the non-smokers don't have anywhere to go.

Good morning blues:

chronobreak:
Give smokers bars, give non-smokers bars. Everyone deserves a choice. I think this thread will get ugly fast.

That solution won't work because it will almost always be to the owner's financial advantage to open a smoking bar, and then the non-smokers don't have anywhere to go.

As well, I hate to says this but... Smokers often still go to bars, even now that they've become non smoking, non smokers often didn't go to bars when smoking was allowed, hence it is seems that smoking bans are in the better interest of pub owners at the moment. Why not have "Smoke Shops" like in Amsterdam? Often they're right across from Pubs, do Drinking and Smoking have to occur in the same building?

They passed a law here in Arizona that you can't smoke inside any restaurants. And you also can't smoke within fifty feet of the entrance to a restaurant. That means no more smokers sitting just outside the door and just puffing away.

Personally I don't really care if the smoke is bad for my health or not. I just hate it because it makes my lungs hurt and gives me a sore throat. So I would appreciate if people wouldn't smoke inside where I can't avoid them.

Limos:
They passed a law here in Arizona that you can't smoke inside any restaurants. And you also can't smoke within fifty feet of the entrance to a restaurant. That means no more smokers sitting just outside the door and just puffing away.

Personally I don't really care if the smoke is bad for my health or not. I just hate it because it makes my lungs hurt and gives me a sore throat. So I would appreciate if people wouldn't smoke inside where I can't avoid them.

HAHA, oh man, the number of idiotic inconsistencies and complete contradicting statements. Ok, first you have people saying they don't care if smoking is bad for their health and destroys their lungs and swells their throat, and in the next sentence complain that the poor health that the smoking is causing is ACTUALLY HAVING SOME EFFECTS LIKE DESTROYED LUNGS AND A SWELLED THROAT. DO PEOPLE NOT REALIZE THAT BAD HEALTH DOES HAVE ITS EFFECTS? I can't believe young people can be so incredibly retarded on a level that makes people with down syndrome say "ha ha, I'm smarter than you".

PedroSteckecilo:

Good morning blues:

chronobreak:
Give smokers bars, give non-smokers bars. Everyone deserves a choice. I think this thread will get ugly fast.

That solution won't work because it will almost always be to the owner's financial advantage to open a smoking bar, and then the non-smokers don't have anywhere to go.

As well, I hate to says this but... Smokers often still go to bars, even now that they've become non smoking, non smokers often didn't go to bars when smoking was allowed, hence it is seems that smoking bans are in the better interest of pub owners at the moment. Why not have "Smoke Shops" like in Amsterdam? Often they're right across from Pubs, do Drinking and Smoking have to occur in the same building?

Hmmm, I guess so, but the pub owners won't like the "smoke shops" because they won't own them, and besides, it's not part of the culture in North America.

I don't know, I guess I'd rather see a solution that lets everybody mix together in the same building.

While I only smoke in social situations, (a cigarette after a few rounds can often be heavenly) I don't like it when I walk into a room and the stink of stale cigarettes that has soaked into the walls floods my senses. On that level, I support smoking bans.

...

But then again, as many posters have mentioned above, smoking bans can be a bit ridiculous in that they ban smoking everywhere. I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is a problem better solved by the free market. I live in California, and I can hardly imagine that every bar would allow smoking in it if the smoking ban were to be lifted tomorrow.

With restaurants and bars instituting "smoking" and "non-smoking" sections, they were clearly realizing that a market exists for smoke-free drinking and eating establishments. If the market were allowed to run its course, I wouldn't be surprised if a town offered bars for people who wanted to smoke and those who don't. The freedom of choice, as has been put forth, would fall on the consumer. If you don't like smoking bars, avoid them. If enough people do this, they will eventually become smoke-free.

Then again, economics often idealizes its models, and maybe everything I just wrote is a pile of shit and we wouldn't reach the economic ideal outcome.

I'm with OP on this, even though he didn't argue the point well enough.

I am glad Alberta has enacted tougher smoking laws, but they don't do any good when nobody enforces them. You're supposedly not allowed to smoke within 10m of any entrance to a public building (malls, stores, pretty much anything that's not your house), also smoking indoors is pretty much gone, inside your home it's your call (for now) but bars, restaurants, etc... Not even allowed a designated smoking lounge anymore.

Why I like this, beyond the fact I hate smoking, smokers, and the tobacco industry...
1 - As an athsmatic, I am now free to go places and not cough my lungs up because of inconsiderate pricks who insist on crowding around the entranceways.
2 - I can now go to a bar/pub, where before I couldn't because of the smoke.
3 - It puts the situation one step closer to total removal of smoking

I'll stop smoking in public when others stop bringing their whinging screaming babies and adhd kids into public.

Jaythulhu:
I'll stop smoking in public when others stop bringing their whinging screaming babies and adhd kids into public.

I never have. Ever. So how is it fair when you (and other smokers) stand next to me at the bus stop and smoke while I'm trying to breath in peace? I always try to be considerate of others, and it's nice when other people at least make an effort. I don't believe secondhand smoke kills, and I don't want to take away the rights of smokers, but more smokers should try to be a little stinkin' nicer about their smoking. Face facts: nobody who doesn't smoke LIKES the smell of cigarettes. So every time you smoke near a non-smoker, it's like you're playing loud rap music or waving an incense candle around.

I mean, I'd happily punch out somebody who waved incense in my face, so why should I be so much nicer to you? If you can't respect my personal space, why should I respect your addiction/hobby?

PedroSteckecilo:

Let me start off by saying that people SHOULD be allowed to smoke if they damn well want, and that moderate exposure to second hand smoke won't kill anyone (proven fact, or so I here) so that in front of buildings rule is stupid. I am not against specific "smoking clubs" or sealed smoking rooms, even if they do make the place smell a bit tobaccoy and I feel sorry for the poor smoke + coffee shop owner who now gets only 1/3 the business he used too.

HOWEVER...

I feel that smoking indoors should be prohibited, banned... whatever. Why?

Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

I am extra defensive because I'm an asthmatic, and hence when smoking in bars was the norm, I would rarely go, and neither would any of my friends since the entire place would be full of assholes lighting up. I and other non-smokers should be able to make our own damn choice.

Basically, smoking is your choice, it is a non-essential enjoyment like alcahol, it is a leisure activity, it is NOT a lifestyle choice, that's like saying being an alcaholic is a lifestyle choice. It is not one of my enjoyments, in fact, it threatens my health actively through my asthma.

I totally agree (well except for the bar owners getting less business, some get just as much business as they ever did due to non-smokers who, like me and by the sounds of things you as well, were put off going into bars because of the smoke). I think smoking rooms are a good idea, though they would need to be well ventilated and it should be up to the owner whether they are put in or not.

PedroSteckecilo:
Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

Is it not possible to walk away or ask them to walk away and actually let them know how you feel in an appropriate manner? This way you don't just brew on your thoughts.

PedroSteckecilo:

As well, I hate to says this but... Smokers often still go to bars, even now that they've become non smoking, non smokers often didn't go to bars when smoking was allowed, hence it is seems that smoking bans are in the better interest of pub owners at the moment. Why not have "Smoke Shops" like in Amsterdam? Often they're right across from Pubs, do Drinking and Smoking have to occur in the same building?

We don't have legal 'smoke shops' in the Netherlands. We only have coffeeshops, in which smoking tobacco is only condoned if you use it in a joint/stickie/whatever.

That said, if people bring in the argument of 'choice', barowners should have the 'choice' of having a non-smoking or a smoking establishment.

CameronU2fan:

Limos:
They passed a law here in Arizona that you can't smoke inside any restaurants. And you also can't smoke within fifty feet of the entrance to a restaurant. That means no more smokers sitting just outside the door and just puffing away.

Personally I don't really care if the smoke is bad for my health or not. I just hate it because it makes my lungs hurt and gives me a sore throat. So I would appreciate if people wouldn't smoke inside where I can't avoid them.

HAHA, oh man, the number of idiotic inconsistencies and complete contradicting statements. Ok, first you have people saying they don't care if smoking is bad for their health and destroys their lungs and swells their throat, and in the next sentence complain that the poor health that the smoking is causing is ACTUALLY HAVING SOME EFFECTS LIKE DESTROYED LUNGS AND A SWELLED THROAT. DO PEOPLE NOT REALIZE THAT BAD HEALTH DOES HAVE ITS EFFECTS? I can't believe young people can be so incredibly retarded on a level that makes people with down syndrome say "ha ha, I'm smarter than you".

If you read his post in good faith you'd realize that what he meant was that, even if second-hand smoke is shown to be harmless in the long run (i.e. no actual health effect), he'd rather not experience short-term discomfort (the soreness of throat) in the vicinity of smokers. There's nothing particularly stupid or contradictory about that statement.

-- Alex

smoking should be banned in public places, its unhealthy, but even if its not that shitty smell sticks to your clothes and hair, and then there are people who are allergic/have athsma, but in private establishments, throw in a smoking section seperated from the rest of the restraunt/bar, sure, why not?
i think the same SHOULD apply to overly loud music, the really loud shit puts me on the ground in a very uncomfortable way, its gotten so common that i cant even go outside in the daytime, because lieing on the ground in the fetal position screaming with your hands over your ears makes you look great. also, i dont like pain. this also makes it (from what im told, im not 21 yet) so that i just plain cant go to most popular entertainment destinations, which sucks. but they are private establishments. oh well. i can deal with it, as long as they have sound proof walls.

but i really DONT CARE what someone is doing inside of their home. if they have invited me there its likely i have enough influence to get them to stop anything that makes me uncomfortable.

I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

Both Khell and Pedro have made excellent points.

Myself, being thoroughly against smoking, an asthmatic, and having a couple of friends/relatives dead/dying from diseases caused by smoking, I do feel strongly about this issue. It also doesn't help that when I smell tobacco, I get agitated. I don't know why.

Anyway, smokers can argue that we shouldn't stand around them, but really, standing in doorways, public places and, of course, indoors is just irritating.

I approve of the "smoking areas" in bars, which has been adopted by the NSW Government in Australia.

Mind you, I hate it when I have to go into the city. Who doesn't smoke there?

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

You're truly an asset to our side of the argument! Proclaiming that drinking is good, and that you should have a choice to use violence! Such an eloquent statement of our cause!

I totally agree with you. Smoking is a bad habit, and I agree that all people should have a choice, a free will and the freedom to live their life like they want to.

Except..!

When their choice opposes mine! I don't want people to smoke! They oppress my choice not to smoke with their choice to smoke! They do not tolerate me, or you! I'm all for tolerance, but why should I tolerate people with whom I disagree?!

Well done my friend, truly the most sensible argument in this whole debate!

While smoking should be illegal, the government gets tax money from it, unlike illicit drugs like Marijuana.

Therefore, when money comes into the equation, you won't see a ban any time soon.

JinxyKatte:

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

That has to be the stupidest thing I've read on this forum, yet.

Spinozaad:

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

You're truly an asset to our side of the argument! Proclaiming that drinking is good, and that you should have a choice to use violence! Such an eloquent statement of our cause!

I totally agree with you. Smoking is a bad habit, and I agree that all people should have a choice, a free will and the freedom to live their life like they want to.

Except..!

When their choice opposes mine! I don't want people to smoke! They oppress my choice not to smoke with their choice to smoke! They do not tolerate me, or you! I'm all for tolerance, but why should I tolerate people with whom I disagree?!

Well done my friend, truly the most sensible argument in this whole debate!

I really wanted to write a big long rant on how screwed up the guy's logic is, but it felt like it'd be all for not. Here's to hoping something you said sinks in.

Hahahahhaahah I was just thinking the same thing runtheplacered. Most contradictory thing I've heard today. To add to the issue, I smoke socially, after work i might have one or two, I don't/can't get addicted because of the sports I do, Fills in the time so I dont have it on my mind :) Say what you will, its a great stress relief and I don't smoke around non smokers or even in public to be honest, only at home or at the bars.(outside)

In Australia, you're not allowed to smoke in under cover areas. (Amongst other places..)
A friend and I were smoking on a train platform (Which was covered.) and were asked quite nicely to leave.
As we were leaving, we noticed a train come to stop near us and spew out exhaust fumes which quickly drifted over to where we were standing. You can't really avoid a cloud of toxic fumes cruising towards a group of people, but you can walk away from a smoker.
Trains should be banned in covered areas and pubs, not smoking.

Chekov:
In Australia, you're not allowed to smoke under cover areas. (Amongst other places..)
A friend and I were smoking on a train platform (Which was covered.) and were asked quite nicely to leave.
As we were leaving, we noticed a train come to stop near us and spew out exhaust fumes which quickly drifted over to where we were standing. You can't really avoid a cloud of toxic fumes cruising towards a group of people, but you can walk away from a smoker.
Trains should be banned in covered areas and pubs, not smoking.

They made a law recently banning trains from pubs, not sure about covered areas though.

I have somehow managed to apparently give the best argument and the stupidest statement in the same reply. Hell yeah

JinxyKatte:
I have somehow managed to apparently give the best argument and the stupidest statement in the same reply. Hell yeah

I was actually mocking your statement by being ironic. I thought all the bolds and italics made that clear.

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