Smoking in Public Places and The concept of Choice Theft

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perfectimo:

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

I agree with your point in theory, primarily about violence.

Of course, if Smokers weren't there in the first place with lets face it, an antisocial habit smelling up the entire place.

I don't see why i should accommodate someone who has a foul habit, at the expense of my own health.

I work in a club, i wouldn't work there if there wasn't a smoking ban inside in the UK

perfectimo:

Chekov:
In Australia, you're not allowed to smoke under cover areas. (Amongst other places..)
A friend and I were smoking on a train platform (Which was covered.) and were asked quite nicely to leave.
As we were leaving, we noticed a train come to stop near us and spew out exhaust fumes which quickly drifted over to where we were standing. You can't really avoid a cloud of toxic fumes cruising towards a group of people, but you can walk away from a smoker.
Trains should be banned in covered areas and pubs, not smoking.

They made a law recently banning trains from pubs, not sure about covered areas though.

Heeheehee, I actually can't stop giggling at that :D

As someone who smokes i fail to see what the big deal is about this whole indoor ban on smoking.

I've made my peace with with the smoking ban in the UK a long time ago mainly because the pub i usually go to has a sign which does the trick.

"If you are a non smoker and you are outside and you complain about people smoking you will be asked politely to go back inside, its what you wanted after all"

which to me sounds fine. if we want to smoke in the winter its wet/cold, but then in the summer we get the nice weather. everyone wins.

Samurai Goomba:
I never have. Ever. So how is it fair when you (and other smokers) stand next to me at the bus stop and smoke while I'm trying to breath in peace?

I'll do my best to stand away from non-smokers, but if I'm alone at the bus stop when you rock up, don't expect me to butt out. I was there first, after all, and first in best dressed rules apply.

corroded:

perfectimo:

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

I agree with your point in theory, primarily about violence.

Of course, if Smokers weren't there in the first place with lets face it, an antisocial habit smelling up the entire place.

I don't see why i should accommodate someone who has a foul habit, at the expense of my own health.

I work in a club, i wouldn't work there if there wasn't a smoking ban inside in the UK

You kind of half finished that second sentence.

I agree, you shouldn't have to accommodate someone else's foul habit, but you also shouldn't have to blame smokers for your inability to protect your health in the name of protest.

PedroSteckecilo:
I have just noticed that there is a group on facebook hoping to have 1 million people protest in favor of allowing smoking in pubs, bars and night clubs and I thought I'd put in my two cents in a place that actually has some intelligent people.

Let me start off by saying that people SHOULD be allowed to smoke if they damn well want, and that moderate exposure to second hand smoke won't kill anyone (proven fact, or so I here) so that in front of buildings rule is stupid. I am not against specific "smoking clubs" or sealed smoking rooms, even if they do make the place smell a bit tobaccoy and I feel sorry for the poor smoke + coffee shop owner who now gets only 1/3 the business he used too.

HOWEVER...

I feel that smoking indoors should be prohibited, banned... whatever. Why?

Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

Where does that end though? Do you a drive a car? You just took away my choice to not breathe the exhaust fumes.

That line of reasoning can go on forever.

perfectimo:

corroded:

perfectimo:

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

I agree with your point in theory, primarily about violence.

Of course, if Smokers weren't there in the first place with lets face it, an antisocial habit smelling up the entire place.

I don't see why i should accommodate someone who has a foul habit, at the expense of my own health.

I work in a club, i wouldn't work there if there wasn't a smoking ban inside in the UK

You kind of half finished that second sentence.

I agree, you shouldn't have to accommodate someone else's foul habit, but you also shouldn't have to blame smokers for your inability to protect your health in the name of protest.

Sorry, i missed off something like 'there wouldn't be a problem'. But true, looking after personal health should a priority. What smokers don't understand is outside, smoke still goes everywhere and most have no qualms about lighting up right next to you.

Decoy Doctorpus:

PedroSteckecilo:
I have just noticed that there is a group on facebook hoping to have 1 million people protest in favor of allowing smoking in pubs, bars and night clubs and I thought I'd put in my two cents in a place that actually has some intelligent people.

Let me start off by saying that people SHOULD be allowed to smoke if they damn well want, and that moderate exposure to second hand smoke won't kill anyone (proven fact, or so I here) so that in front of buildings rule is stupid. I am not against specific "smoking clubs" or sealed smoking rooms, even if they do make the place smell a bit tobaccoy and I feel sorry for the poor smoke + coffee shop owner who now gets only 1/3 the business he used too.

HOWEVER...

I feel that smoking indoors should be prohibited, banned... whatever. Why?

Because smoking to me is Choice Theft, since if you smoke within 5 to 10 feet of me, you have STOLEN my choice not to smoke, you have effectively made my decision for me and (pardon my language) you can go fuck yourself with a switch blade if you think that's excusable behavior. Yes I am "taking away" your choice to smoke, but none of my habits infringe on your personal space or choices, yours infringes on mine without my willful consent.

Where does that end though? Do you a drive a car? You just took away my choice to not breathe the exhaust fumes.

That line of reasoning can go on forever.

Not really. Transport is necessary. Smoking is nothing more than pleasure activity, based on addiction. And you here smokers saying, they need it to feel relaxed. Only thing that happens is their craving stops and they feel like all the non smokers do for a while.

-edit-

Whoa...

corroded:
What smokers don't understand is outside, smoke still goes everywhere and most have no qualms about lighting up right next to you.

I have never met a smoker who would stand near a person and light a cigarette.

I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

and to relieve stress and a bunch of other things as well.

Some people smoke to relax and ease tension because they cannot do it any other feasible way. That in itself is fine. What is not fine is choice theft. But it doesn't just apply to bars, clubs and public places. A mother father or big brother/sister that smokes in front or near a younger child will pass on the habit and possibly even second hand smoke if they are actually in the childs face. That is 100% wrong. You have a child in your home, you don't smoke. Whats worse is those who smoke while pregnant. Thats choice theft from the highest degree.

gibboss28:

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

and to relieve stress and a bunch of other things as well.

I thought it relieved stress only after you've become an addict? At that point you become nervous until you've had your smoke.. by smoking, you become relaxed. At least... that's what I thought.

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

I think you're on to something there, yes it's all so clear now, cancer is cool, coughing uncontrollably is cool and people telling you that you are disgusting is cool.

perfectimo:

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

I think you're on to something there, yes it's all so clear now, cancer is cool, coughing uncontrollably is cool and people telling you that you are disgusting is cool.

Good job, Sherlock! You found out that smoking isn't healthy! Now explain why smoking is, or if anything, was, regarded as cool? Ah, so you're as perplexed as I am?

I honestly don't buy it that teenagers start smoking because it relieves stress.

I moved from South Africa (where you can smoke in clubs) to England (where you can't) and I noticed the change from clubs smelling like, well, clubs, to clubs smelling like everyone's body odour. I don't smoke cigerattes, but I enjoyed it when the smoke machines came on and one could light up a joint.

And to the people who say smoking relaxes them, that's just because of the nicotine addiction. They become tense without the nicotine, which is why the cigarette has the power to do so. If one doesn't smoke in the first place, they wouldn't need the cigarette to relax them, if that makes any sense.

I'm speaking solely about my own country here, since non-smoking laws vary quite a bit from nation to nation.

The way I see it, the problem isn't the general consensus that smoking shouldn't be allowed indoors except under certain circumstances. The problem is that after the first, rather tempered laws were passed a few years ago, certain people took this as an oppertunity to force through their own agenda of "you can't do anything unless we say so". Smokers became a pariah and the laws became more and more twisted and obscure. Smokers stopped caring, because they are now viewed in the same light no matter if they are considerate or not. If people are going to hate you no matter how you act, you might as well be a selfish jerk to make things easier on yourself.

I smoked (cigarettes) for about five years or so. About two packs a week, not a huge addict but not exactly casual either. I've always been fine with having to go outside or in a specific room to smoke. It was fun (well, not tedious at least), you were around people you had something in common with and it lead to socialization.

Banning smoking in restaurants is a given, I think. People come there to eat, not to smoke. You can go outside and smoke, it's not a huge problem. Unless you go to restarurants every day, in which case you should have enough money to smoke wherever you damn well please. Bars... I don't know. The rules here are bizarre, where the guest capacity and size of the establishment decides whether or not the owner may choose to make his place smoking or non-smoking. Split areas seems like an obvious choice, but it's not really an option for smaller businesses and it further deepens the gap between people over something as silly as smoking.

Mariena:

Good job, Sherlock! You found out that smoking isn't healthy! Now explain why smoking is, or if anything, was, regarded as cool? Ah, so you're as perplexed as I am?

Ever seen ol' Humphrey with a cig? It's fucking cool. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Spinozaad:

JinxyKatte:
I agree totally, people can choose to fuck off and smoke outside and not bother me, if you smoke near me you take away my choice. When you could smoke in casinos this bothered me even more as when i was dealing the choice was even less mine.

If your in a bar your there by choice and although i hate people smoking in bars clubs what ever, you still had the choice to not be there. But at work i didnt have that choice.

Smoking is a fucking stupid habbit and should be illegal. Now i know this wont solve anything just like prohibition didnt. But still drinking is good.

But yeah smoking is a choice and if you choose to smoke near me i should be able to choose to hit you with something very heavy.

You're truly an asset to our side of the argument! Proclaiming that drinking is good, and that you should have a choice to use violence! Such an eloquent statement of our cause!

I totally agree with you. Smoking is a bad habit, and I agree that all people should have a choice, a free will and the freedom to live their life like they want to.

Except..!

When their choice opposes mine! I don't want people to smoke! They oppress my choice not to smoke with their choice to smoke! They do not tolerate me, or you! I'm all for tolerance, but why should I tolerate people with whom I disagree?!

Well done my friend, truly the most sensible argument in this whole debate!

You're my hero...

Mariena:

perfectimo:

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

I think you're on to something there, yes it's all so clear now, cancer is cool, coughing uncontrollably is cool and people telling you that you are disgusting is cool.

Good job, Sherlock! You found out that smoking isn't healthy! Now explain why smoking is, or if anything, was, regarded as cool? Ah, so you're as perplexed as I am?

I honestly don't buy it that teenagers start smoking because it relieves stress.

I am not perplexed as to why it was seen as cool. Smoking was seen as a rebelious act by teenagers. By teenager logic, rebel = cool.

What I was pointing out was that I'm pretty sure everybody who smokes doesn't do it to be cool.

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

...I am lost for words by this statement. You ever considered some of us actually like nicotine and the consumption thereof? It's a stimulant. It's stimulating. It's not just because "it looks cool", there's actually a reason people start in the first place.

I'm getting damn tired of this self righteous attitude of non smokers. Yes, you should have a right not to have to sit in a room filled with smoke if you don't bun yourselves, but this condescending attitude to smokers just pisses me off no end. What right do any of you have to judge us? Some of the posts here remind me of a few Bill Hicks jokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ySCcnoo3c

minignu:

Mariena:
I have understood the reason to smoke. You become an addict, you waste tons of cash on cancer sticks and affect your health and of those next to you in a negative way. Only to look 'cool', I guess?

...I am lost for words by this statement. You ever considered some of us actually like nicotine and the consumption thereof? It's a stimulant. It's stimulating. It's not just because "it looks cool", there's actually a reason people start in the first place.

I'm getting damn tired of this self righteous attitude of non smokers. Yes, you should have a right not to have to sit in a room filled with smoke if you don't bun yourselves, but this condescending attitude to smokers just pisses me off no end. What right do any of you have to judge us? Some of the posts here remind me of a few Bill Hicks jokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ySCcnoo3c

I honestly don't care if you smoke (as long as you don't do it anywhere near me), but I just don't understand how the stimulation of nicotine (that's the reason, yes?) is worth killing yourself from the inside.

perfectimo:

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

Isn't that ultimately a very narrow solution?
If the public majority is being inconvenienced by a minority, why shouldn't said majority legislate the minority's activity?

Mariena:
Ah, so you're as perplexed as I am?

I thought you were a tiger. YOU LIED TO ME!

Imitation Saccharin :

perfectimo:

It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

Isn't that ultimately a very narrow solution?
If the public majority is being inconvenienced by a minority, why shouldn't said majority legislate the minority's activity?

It's not a solution, it's just a statement.

If that question is aimed at me then I have no answer at the moment to be honest, then again I was never saying they should legislate it. Although it wouldn't be legalising it, it would be re-legalising it.

perfectimo:

It's not a solution, it's just a statement.

They're the same thing in this instance.

I don't like alot of these anti-smoking laws, some of them are a joke. Funny thing is i don't smoke, but i respect anyone who wishes to.

Imitation Saccharin :

perfectimo:

It's not a solution, it's just a statement.

They're the same thing in this instance.

No because a solution is a fix to a problem. People walking away from people isn't fixing the whole "Choice theft" problem. That said my opinion on this being choice theft was already said by decoy.

Just the opinion of a smoker here:

I'll agree with the no smoking in restaurants, train stations et cetera, *but* I will say that before the smoking bans came into force here in Melbourne, there were a lot of places that smelled a whole lot better with the stale cigarette and beer smell rather than the stale sweat, beer, blood and vomit smell. I can understand though, it is a rather filthy habit.

However, if there's proper ventilation, then I don't see a problem with smoking in public, and with the introduction of the smoking bans, there sprung up a surprising number of 'beer gardens', outdoor areas where us durty smokers can go and light up in peace without fear of some whiny shit telling me that I'm killing them when their anti-depressants are probably doing a better job.
I'm well aware how much non-smokers hate smokers, and I've tried hard not to offend you whiny little shits. I stand far away from people when lighting up, I don't smoke close to kids, I try to keep it to myself, I know what it's doing. I am well aware of the health risks, and I try not to share the negative effects with others.
Most smokers aren't monsters, and the fact that there is such little tolerance in other nations is amazing. Quick tip bar owners: set up a courtyard for smokers, and let the non-smokers have their area.
You don't like smokers? don't go in the courtyard. It's your choice then, and if all your friends smoke except you and they go to the courtyard, don't fucking bitch to me about it.

I drink, I smoke, and I like to get fucked up. I call it enjoying my life while I still can.

Mariena:
I honestly don't care if you smoke (as long as you don't do it anywhere near me), but I just don't understand how the stimulation of nicotine (that's the reason, yes?) is worth killing yourself from the inside.

Because I enjoy it in the same way people like to drink, eat unhealthy food, not excercise, etc. All these things reduce your life expectancy, but smoking is just seen as less socially acceptable these days. I'm not particularily fussed to be honest. What I am fussed about is non smokers constantly pushing these facts at me.

Yes, I know it's unhealthy, stop coming up to me and telling me that already, it's bloody annoying.

I think over here in the UK they went to far, never is there any middle ground anymore.

I am not a smoker (never have smoked and never will) and I personally hate the habit, and as many people have said to have the choice of not breathing in someone elses smoke is something I insist on.

However, if I understand it correctly smokers cannot smoke inside a public place period, which effectively means a pub or a bar etc cannot create a smoking room and so on, therefore forcing smokers on to the street. This I believe is rather excessive. Smokers while having a habit that does upset others are not second class citizens to be cast out onto the street is just plain silly.

To get the juices flowing I noticed someone mention smoking was a lifestyle choice, I am sorry but I very much doubt you could just give up without any problems. I am aware of the casual smoker who smokers once a week but they are rare the vast majority are addicted, and whether through choice or not, the addiction is very real, I recently heard the initial withdrawals from smoking are worse than a class A drug.

Imitation Saccharin :

Mariena:
Ah, so you're as perplexed as I am?

I thought you were a tiger. YOU LIED TO ME!

Rawr... uhm. What? O.o

Rhodite:
I recently heard the initial withdrawals from smoking are worse than a class A drug.

Citation please? That seems a bit... wrong... to me.

Ultrajoe:

Rhodite:
I recently heard the initial withdrawals from smoking are worse than a class A drug.

Citation please? That seems a bit... wrong... to me.

I'll say this: Quitting pot (8+ years) was easier for me than quitting cigarettes (5+ years). Take from that what you will.

Okay, I will start off saying I am a non-smoker. That being clear I will go to my second point.

The only place smoking should be regulated is in public, need-to-be-in buildings (as in town hall, post office, whatever). Bars are not on that list. I find it odd not to see people smoking in bars. If you do not like the smoke, don't smoke. If it really bothers you that much, don't go into a bar.

I particularly do not enjoy the particular idea of having people give restrictions to bar owners on what legal substances to allow or not in their own bars. And I have read a bit earlier something on the line of "you are not restricted to smoking in your house (yet)". I really really hope that the yet was sarcastic and not an actual hope for the future.

It was something I had heard but I do recall the person who mentioned it to me so I will endeavour to find out where they heard this from.

Also I believe said issue is due to the chemicals they put in to slow the burn process not the nicotene.

poleboy:

Ultrajoe:

Rhodite:
I recently heard the initial withdrawals from smoking are worse than a class A drug.

Citation please? That seems a bit... wrong... to me.

I'll say this: Quitting pot (8+ years) was easier for me than quitting cigarettes (5+ years). Take from that what you will.

THC is not addictive. If you were addicted to weed, it was psychological not physical, so it was bound to be harder to get off of cigarrettes. Saying that not having ciggys or spliffs is the same experience as going cold turkey off of, (say) cocaine or heroine is.... kind of naieve.

Also I believe said issue is due to the chemicals they put in to slow the burn process not the nicotene.

WOuldn't have thought so, although they do make the smoke generally a lot more unhealthy. This is why I smoke rollies instead!

minignu:

poleboy:

Ultrajoe:

Rhodite:
I recently heard the initial withdrawals from smoking are worse than a class A drug.

Citation please? That seems a bit... wrong... to me.

I'll say this: Quitting pot (8+ years) was easier for me than quitting cigarettes (5+ years). Take from that what you will.

THC is not addictive. If you were addicted to weed, it was psychological not physical, so it was bound to be harder to get off of cigarrettes. Saying that not having ciggys or spliffs is the same experience as going cold turkey off of, (say) cocaine or heroine is.... kind of naieve.

I wasn't really comparing pot to heroin, just stating my experience on the subject (and since most people think all drugs are the same, I didn't expect to be corrected). Anyway... I've yet to see someone properly prove or disprove THC addiction, because there are too many people interested in seeing either result be confirmed. I did feel it physically, but it was nothing I couldn't deal with. It took about the same force of will as not picking at a scab. Whether it was brought on by a psychological addiction, I can't say.

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