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Paperboy  Posts: 29 Joined: 9 Oct 2008     | |
Anonymous Source Posts: 2 Joined: 23 Oct 2008 |
I like how some people don't really realize the state of most middle class families. Ok sure, the people who are rich, make more then 250k a year and own their own business, worked hard for that money, and we all get that. I understand they can spend it on all sorts of fun things like expensive cars, multiple houses, vacations, etc. I met a guy at work yesterday who was a hardcore Mccain supporter, he owns his own business makes more then 250k a year, I get his point, he worked hard. All I have to say is so #%^&ing what. My dad works 70-80 hours a week, for the government, bringing home barely enough money to keep up with all the bills, and hes been doing this for as long as I can remember (I'm talking 30-40 years). This other guy is on vacation doing "work" on his really expensive laptop, the kind of work that a monkey could do with the right resources, the kind of work that if my dad was doing it, he would get 500X the work done that this schmuck does. There are A LOT of families like this in the US, people that work their asses off and barely scrape by month to month, week to week, while these "Fat Cats" who profited from these people working so hard, profited from either getting lucky or working just hard enough to get to a very comfortable position in life, are living it up. Sure some people work hard, some people make huge sacrifices to get to the position that they are at, that does not mean that they shouldn't be giving more back to the rest of the US. Look at all these Sports Players who play the games we love to watch on TV so much, they make so much money its retarded, why is it a bad thing that they get taxed a little more so everyone else can feel a little less stressed, a tiny bit more secure. So what if Obama has socialistic Ideals (So every mccain supporter says), get real, do you REALLY think 4 more years of Bush's Economic policies are going to help our country? If this "spreading the wealth" around sentence is all you guys have to show for fighting back against Obama, then good luck, because you've got a large wave of new voters just waiting to give Obama the push he needs. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 562 Joined: 6 Jul 2008     | Sounds like your dad should have gone to college. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008    |
See, there in lies the rub, because nothing of the meaning of the rituals got changed. You kissed under the mistletoe? Does doing that somehow honor god? Not the Christan god. The berries of the mistletoe are meant to resemble the testicles of a bull. It's a ritual that honors a pagan fertility god. There's absolutly nothing honoring the Christan god in that ritual, and instead, by kissing your sweety, you're calling on the testicles of a pagan god to increase her chances of her getting pregnant. Meaning did not change. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
You can still think that, but you wouldn't have presented yourself a leg to stand on in saying it. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 562 Joined: 6 Jul 2008 |
No one claimed it did. It's just tradition - hanging bulbs on a tree doesn't specifically have anything to do with Jesus - it's just something we do during the celebration. Unless someone kisses someone under mistletoe thinking to themselves "I'm honoring the pagan god of fertility" then they aren't honoring the pagan god of fertility, they're merely practicing tradition. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
No, you've managed to avoid providing substance pretty well, up until this point, but, you know, hey lets not look back. Let's keep this substance rolling. ... well, shoot. User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 2 Joined: 23 Oct 2008 |
On that note, the man I talked to at work didn't go to college. Not going to college was a choice my father took (which I thought was dumb on his part, but hey), Most people can't even afford to go, or even afford to give up the small amount of time they have extra to sleep to take classes. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 93 Joined: 13 Nov 2007     | Kurtz... You've responded to every other comment, what the hell is your day job? In any case it's kinda funny me not knowing shit about the USSR seing as how I kind of am from there and all. Since when did hippies support the USSR? If they lived there they'd just have gotten killed, it all would have gone a whole lot faster, none of this sitting outside capital buildings. I mean if authors wrote stuff that sort of sounded like it was against the government they'd get blacklisted and starve to death on the street. If you don't beleive me look up the backstory of a russian movel called Master and Megerita |
Beat Writer  Posts: 223 Joined: 6 Dec 2007    |
You don't know the first thing about that poster's dad, nor the work he does, nor the life he has. He works and provides for his family, and barely makes it; something isn't right about that, college or no. Not only do you sound unsympathetic and arrogant, you detract from the position you wish to support.
Actually, athletes make a lot of money because they're part of a business that makes a lot of money, frequently from advertisers, but if you want to say that 'we pay them' then that's pretty much true for every person in America, so...what's your point? It doesn't take away from the idea that people should be paid a living wage, given access to systems that keep them healthy (so they can keep working) but don't force them to go broke (previous to the housing collapse, 70% of bankruptcy cases were due to people being unable to pay hospital bills), and that there is an unfair distribution of wealth/power in this country that ought to be addressed by the people who can most effectively do so: those with the wealth and power. If you want to live in a stable society, you gotta pay for it. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 1 Joined: 21 Oct 2008 | socialism: read it and learn. besides do you make 250,000 a year huh do ya??? well I thought so. anyway no. his ideas are not socialism, I really see this a mud tactic by McCain's camp. I would like it he would stop being a jerk and be a leader but he just wants to call names with out facts. I dont see how he would change after months of saying he's the deregulator then when his Idea's fail he is the super regulator. he's not a good man and he has lost |
Copy Clerk Posts: 93 Joined: 13 Nov 2007 | woah dude calm down. Dont's accuse Mc'Cain of being immoral, elections are like auchohol, when presented to the unprepared they affect judgement and personality. Hell I don't think Obama walked out of this election unscathed either. You have to keep in mind a lot of people did repect McCain before the election, politics aside. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 6 Joined: 6 Sep 2008  |
Please cease your misuse od the word fascism. From Obama's comments, he does not seem fascist so much as communist, since spreading the wealth around implies elimination of classes. Socialism, however, is an integral component of both fascism and communism. If you're going to throw insults at the republican party, call them theocrats or.. I don't know, what do you call a participant in a military dictatorship? Whatever that is. Fascism and communism is the domain of the democratic party. Obama's tax cuts would benefit me, but I don't want them subsidized by the wealthy, I'd prefer by not turning our health care system into the UK's or Canada's (you don't have to worry about paying, you do have to be worry about being treated, or fed.) |
On the Record  Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007   |
That's why a better definition of Fascism is the idea that all rights are privileges bestowed upon citizens by the state. It keeps the distinction between it and Communism, the idea that, e.g., there should be no such thing as property rights but workers' rights are pre-existing to the establishment of the state. In Communism all of society cooperates for the benefit of the society which is under the jurisdiction of the government--in Fascism, all of society cooperates for the benefit of the government as if it were an independent entity. Of course there's little difference in practice because both Communist and Fascist states lead to oppression by the government, and you wind up with situations like Singapore, which looks Communist, but is really Fascist in ideology--compare the symbol of the PAP to Oswald Mosely's British Union of Fascists symbol. Also, Fascist states tend to use the Legislative and Judicial branches to oppress the people as opposed to the use of the Administrative branch: compare what happened in Stalin's Soviet Union and Mao's China to Nazi Nuremburg Laws or the PAP's use of libel laws to destroy opposition leaders like J.B. Jeyaretnam. |
On the Record Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Yeah, that was a special kind of logic right there! I'm just sad that he'll be gone until well after the election. Now THAT would have been a thread! |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 846 Joined: 5 Jul 2008   |
I watched all of the debates, and Obama wants to switch the focus of the war from Iraq, to capturing Bin Laden in Afghanistan. |
Red Guard Posts: 3603 Joined: 27 Mar 2008    |
Ah, but, see, he wants to be sure he's going to win. Would you rest on your laurels if the odds were slightly (say, 60:40) in your favor? Likewise, given the option, Obama, like every presidential candidate before him, wants to win big. In America, rolling into the White House with 350 electoral votes gives you a lot more immediate clout than squeaking in with 270. -- Alex |
BANNED  Posts: 740 Joined: 19 Jun 2008     |
That amuses me greatly, thank you for the moderator. User was banned for: I'm Finished. (Permanent) |
BANNED Posts: 740 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 | Is Obama going to "take from the rich, and give to the poor?" User was banned for: I'm Finished. (Permanent) |
Muckraker  Posts: 228 Joined: 27 Jul 2008    | No because everyone in america will soon be poor. |
BANNED Posts: 953 Joined: 26 Apr 2008 |
Now wait just a second. You're taking a huge jump if you want to call something like school lunch social interventionism, if you want to call opposing predatory trade deals protectionism, and if you want to call... well, I don't think any party's ever said the welfare of the poor is more important then mine... so I don't even know where you're coming from with that. And you amaze me when you say that we can call Obama communist based on your interpretation of a single phrase he said, not on his policies. See, that's the thing about this year's elections. People are actually looking at the issues instead pointless BS soundbites. To say Obama's tax cuts would be subsided by the wealthy is... stupid. His tax policies would merely return the nation to the tax polices we had before Bush, before this mess. That's what you call fixing a problem. And you want to praise the US health care system. UN ranks us 72nd in terms of overall care. CIA says we're behind 45 other nations in life expectancy. 41 other nations in infant mortality. Behind Canada and the UK on every list. You want to explain that to me? User was banned for: Pro-copyright proponents press propaganda on classrooms. (Permanent) |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 55 Joined: 27 Jun 2008  |
Funny you'd think think honest to god patriots would: |
Beat Writer  Posts: 164 Joined: 1 May 2008  |
i'm glad that Mistah Kurtz guy got banned. i didn't read any posts by him that were particularly offensive, but he seemed like a serious Rush Limbaugh devotee. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2768 Joined: 18 Sep 2007   |
Glen Beck, actually, given the sources he cited... not much better, I guess. I do blame Beck and Limbaugh and their fellow travelers for a lot of the intolerance that has been floating around in the Republican Party. Indeed, I must admit that much of my personal support for Obama comes from wanting the Repugnicant wing of the GOP completely discredited and humiliated so that some sort of sane conservatism can take root again. You guys need fiscal discipline; not now, because your economy is teetering and alas you need those socialist infusions to stave off a collapse, but once the US is back on its feet again you really do have to take a look at how you're going to pay off all that debt before it really does crush you permanently. Mind you, what I object to the most in the neo-Conservative movement isn't the fiscal irresponsibility or the cronyism or even the manipulative arrogance they've inculcated; it's the heinous disregard for anybody but the Party, something I thought I wouldn't see outside Soviet-modelled states. Foreign or domestic, you were "wit' us or agin' us" and if you ever stuck up for yourself against that simplistic mindset you became a target. Remember, these are the guys who managed to piss away a serious offer of help from Iran after bin Laden's attacks. I'd like to think that even Gore would've been able to catch that easy pass, and that even so uncharismatic a figure could've turned it into at least a good propaganda moment to get genuine international assistance in tracking down those villains, but RovingBushCo managed to fumble it on their own one-yard line by buying into their "lone cowboy" self-image and trying to go it alone. I wish I could say that I know Obama will do better, but all I can say for certain is that he can't do any worse. -- Steve PS: Obama took Constitutional Law in college, so maybe he'll stop shredding your Ammendments for bedding material. That's a good thing, right? |
Paperboy  Posts: 16 Joined: 28 Jul 2008  | what only makes me confused by all of this... is McCain is the socalist just more for the upperclass. If your rich America is a socialist nation... if your poor or middle class its capitalism. The rich get government bailouts and help, the poor suffer. |
On the Record Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
That's the primary reason I like him. We could use someone who was in charge of the Harvard Law Review after eight years of someone who was in charge of the Texas Rangers baseball team, and treated the Constitution the way Billy Martin used to treat the shoes of umpires. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2664 Joined: 4 Nov 2007  |
Or a Real American. |
Paperboy Posts: 12 Joined: 18 Oct 2008  | Did the United States defeat Socialism and the USSR only to become what we defeated? Will the "eternal campaign" focus of party-based conduct finally dissolve? Will a congressional term limit make it into the Constitution? Find out over the next few decades as you play: Fablemerica Ver236.303. On the subject of socialism in education, nations like Iceland and India are beating the shit out of Americans in terms of educational performance and the ability to get jobs in high-intelligence fields. Note that most industrialized nations have government controlled budgeting for schools in one form or another and that America uses a school-board system that use local (rich neighborhood/poor neighborhood) funding and competition, reinforcing the education and wage gaps as good teachers seek jobs in rich schools and weak teachers get jobs in poor schools. Do American students have the will to learn what we need to compete instead of entertain ourselves? In an environment where poor funding destroys the resources for learning, the value of an iPod multiplies as knowledge of how poor ones' education is devalues that education. In the case of education, I believe that socialism would certainly help produce more middle-class citizens by closing the educational resource gap. As it stands now, American high schools teach bare-basics that allow for low-education jobs in a nation where higher-education jobs now operate the low-education fields in foreign nations, leaving middle class jobs that can't be filled because the undereducated can't or won't apply. The problem with widespread socialism is that it spreads poverty as it discourages achievement. In concentrated doses - move schools to state-based funding and ownership (and for God's sake eliminate all this legacy crap in colleges) - it can do good, but accomplishing medical, market, and educational socialism simultaneously isn't feasible since we simply can't afford to. If Americans are going to compete in a world that increasingly lowers its borders yet raises its demands, some fundamental shift in values has to occur. So the final questions are: What is valuable enough to Americans that we want to socialize it and what will it cost? |
On the Record Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
From a Small Town. With Values. |
Red Guard Posts: 3603 Joined: 27 Mar 2008 | We grow good people in our small towns. In vats. -- Alex |
Paperboy Posts: 29 Joined: 9 Oct 2008 |
By fascist, I mean a party or person who: -is very nationalistic and militaristic I've seen all of these in McCain's and Palin's speeches. A particular example that sticks in my head is the rally where Palin didn't quell her supporters when they shouted that Obama was a terrorist and that someone should "kill him". When this came up in the debate: Obama: "...were shouting, when my name came up, things like 'terrorist' and 'kill him,' and that your running mate didn't mention, didn't stop, didn't say, 'Hold on a second, that's kind of out of line.'" McCain (response): "Let me just say categorically I'm proud of the people that come to our rallies." This kind of sentiment in the rallies echoes rallies of fascist parties in pre-WWII Europe. This is quite chilling for me, especially since it is happening in the so-called "Land of the Free." |
Paperboy Posts: 12 Joined: 18 Oct 2008 |
I'm pretty sure CNN commented on that, and said that something other than "kill him" was said. Not sure about the terrorist bit. In my honest opinion, no legislation will get by quickly so long as America is divided into two parties. The solutions to this that I see are: Insert Congressional Term Limit for all but D. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 358 Joined: 9 Nov 2007    | The funny thing with socialism is, that if it works well, it supports itself too. People will get better education--> people get better jobs ---> people get paid more ---> people can pay more taxes ---> money can be spent on better education. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 116 Joined: 2 Jul 2008 |
Please, please, please, do not use the Daily sodding Mail as a source, its a sensationalist tabloid which used to be a serious broadsheet about 50 years ago. Its full of spin, hype and every other day it moans about the NHS or Immigrants, if you are looking for good source material use one of these papers to represent my countries media: The Times - Centre Right, owned by Murdoch (conservative) To be frank anything else is a joke. Also, just a note as pretty much everything has already been said. Socialism has been a part of British polotics since the 1800's social reform for the poor and elderly in london marelybone movement and Benjamin Chamberlain's housing plans are the basis for many modern social concepts on housing and health care. Factory owners with a socialist slant are responsible for building towns around their factories (notably Bourneville in the midlands, for the Cadbury Factory), which were of such a high standard that it forced the government of the time to bring in acts making heating and running water compulsory. In modern times, after the second world war we accepted un-fasionable socialist reforms in our economy, our state pensions, health care and social services. We only pay out 20% (on average) of our pay checks for all our tax and our National Insurance and trust me I am gald for it, I come from a typical middle class family, our expenditure is close to matching our outgoings most months, and boy am I thankful that when I was 11 and had two compund fractures to my arm, and that I was able to go straight into hospital and have my correcting operation for free the next day, (it was delayed by 12 hours becuase there had been a major motorway pile up and the hospital was flooded) I am thankful that I only pay about $50 when i need my eyes tested and have to get new glasses, I'm so terribly glad that my university education is heavily subsidised by the government, and I am so thankful that my grandmothers are cared for amply by their state pensions, there local health visitors and doctors... EVERY SINGLE PENNY FUNDED BY SOCIALISM. ( I will be happy to provide sources if required, I have direct references to my text books that I used when I studied Social and Economic Hitosry) |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 934 Joined: 22 Jul 2008    | Barack Obama leans more towards social-democracy, which is a good thing in my opinion. However, from a Western European perspective, he would probably be classified as a centre-left liberal or maybe even a Christian democrat, but certainly not as a socialist. |
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Wow this thread has gotten off topic. What does Christmas have to do with socialism?
Anyway, to reiterate my earlier point, this latest stock market crash is a further vindication of Marxist economic analysis: if you put a bunch of capitalists in charge of a market, they will screw over everyone apart from themselves. This has happened before: in the stock market crash of 1929, the recessions of the 1980s, the dot-com collapse of the 1990s (i.e. WorldCom), the Enron scandal, and now the current financial crisis. The American response is to give the capitalist financial leaders more money to do whatever they please with very few restrictions given the severity of their screw-up.
This is not socialism! This is capitalism! A socialist response to the crisis would be to nationalize the banks, reorganizing them to meet the needs of the people rather than the greed of their millionaire CEOs. The bailout money and the money gained from the reorganization would be used to support the working classes, those people who have been swindled by realtors into spending their money on houses and mortgages which they can't afford.
I'm voting for Obama in the November elections, because a Socialist candidate for president doesn't have a chance in hell of being elected in America right now. Americans have been conditioned to hate anything which can be labeled socialism, thanks the ideological heirs of Joseph McCarthy. At least Obama won't screw the economy as much as McCain will, and Obama isn't given to resorting to fascist remarks in order to promote his chances at winning the election.
EDIT: Sources for my statements: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/pers-o23.shtml and http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/elec-s13.shtml