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Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1146 Joined: 27 Aug 2008     | |
On the Record  Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007    | Oh, and as far as bringing biology into this, think of the herring gull, which doesn't even tap at its mother's beak because of a straight line of causation from survival to nutrition to pleasure to eating, but because it just taps at yellow things with red stripes: http://www.pbs.org/howartmadetheworld/episodes/human/ramachandran/ So if the evolutionary basis for something as simple as a herring gull getting food from its mother is that disconnected from the true biological motivation, just think how complicated it gets when talking about humans and sexual relationships! |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
I think they meant stuff that's not punishable by law in enlightened countries, stuff that you can do without the other person having any right to get back at you for it, stuff that you can do and your SO really can't force you to stop doing it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1146 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
You're probably right, but I get annoyed with that level of imprecision and hyperbole. If you mean it's the worst *legal* thing you can do, then say it's the worst *legal* thing you can do. Personally I think Alimony is worse than cheating. "Hi, I'm not your wife any more but you're still my slave required to provide for my material needs. SUCKER!!!" |
Beat Writer  Posts: 160 Joined: 27 Oct 2008   |
Monogamy IS sound, depending. Bonobos, I think, are monogamous. Well, it's some species of monkey/ape that's monogamous. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3310 Joined: 10 Oct 2008   |
I agree, alimony is evil and should be abolished.
Geese are monogamous too. As are Gibbon apes, wolves, termites, coyotes, barn owls, beavers, bald eagles, golden eagles, condors, swans, brolga cranes, French angel fish, sandhill cranes, pigeons, prions (a seabird), red-tailed hawks, anglerfish, ospreys, prairie voles (a rodent), and black vultures. It is rare, but not unheard of. |
Muckraker  Posts: 305 Joined: 1 Oct 2008    | Back before I was the person I am today, I helped a girl cheat on her guy. Turned out she'd done it several times, and would do so many times after I grew a conscience. Not only guys cheat, but we're seen as the ones who do so more than women because of the whole culture we have where guys are "players" and therefore cool if they cheat. Women who do so are "sluts". |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1710 Joined: 2 Jan 2008     |
Integrity is a joke. People who hold up a big "Integrity" banner always think they're better than everyone else because they live in what I like to call "denial". Look it up sometime. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
I don't really think it was imprecise and hyperbolic. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Yeah, that's not really integrity, that's legalistic behavior. If she's cheated on you and you know you're getting a divorce, and the relationship is messed up, the only way it can be cheating is if she still expects fidelity from you. If she no longer expects fidelity from you, then it's not integrity that's keeping you from having sex with someone else (because if she doesn't expect fidelity, it's not cheating), its another factor at work. Maybe it's something totally fine, like you've got a personal thing about sex during marriage with people you're not married to. However, it could also be that you want that kind of moral superiority over her, and you don't want to give up the moral high ground. Only you can know the real answer, but, if she no longer expects fidelity from you, if she no longer would be emotionally hurt--and especially if she would feel relieved--by you having sex with someone else, then you're not talking about integrity anymore. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Alimony should be reformed, not abolished. If someone gives up chances for personal advancement for the sake of the marriage, when the marriage ends, they should be compensated.
Actually, Bonobo Chimps are *ridiculously* sexual--I think the males greet each other with handjobs. They and Common Chimps are our closest relatives--I don't even think Gibbons are Great Apes like us and Gorillas and Chimps and Orangutans, just Apes. So is monogamy biologically sound? Depends on the species, it seems. |
On the Record  Posts: 6100 Joined: 25 Jan 2008    | Never start a thread with the statement "I am/was bored", it's practically begging for a lock. But to contribute more than just criticism for bad form... Men cheat because we are ruled by two brains, each the equal of the other. Our animal side wants us to hump anything and everything that can produce us some offspring (children, not music), while our logical brain tells us to be faithful to our bf/gf or spouse. Problem with the concept of marriage, is that love falls into the animal side of the brain, and men's and women's are different. The female instinct is to secure one good sire and hold on like Kate Winslet and her flotsam at the end of Titanic, but if a better prospective mate comes along, it is her nature to instead latch onto him. The male instinct is to use a female for as long as it takes to crouch, insert, and squirt, then run like Forest Gump. Our logical brains (male and female) then get all pissy when they kick back in. Women feel foolish for chastising their men for stupid things like glancing at another female or for leaving their first lover for another, while men feel ashamed for having looked at another woman or for betraying his wife. We are in constant conflict with our two natures, and with our spouses, because of this archaic notion of fidelity and jealousy. Love and sex are separate entities, while they go good together, they also exist apart. People stupidly mistake one for the other, and think retarded things like just because a man looks at other women, he loves his wife less. No, he looks at other women because he's a man, but if he truly loves his wife, he will forever and always love her. Also worth note, the idea that love is a limited quantity is utter Tauren shit. Your love for one person does not diminish when you also love another. We are too possessive of our mates, and it drives us to be stupid. So bottom line with me: To answer OP's question. Can't cheat if you're single, which is my case. Wouldn't consider it cheating, I'd be open and honest with my lover(s) about my intents and affections, and would only be seeking a woman with similar beliefs. So yes, I'd sleep and/or get romantically involved with another woman, but it wouldn't be cheating, in the sense that I'm not going behind my primary love's back. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1173 Joined: 21 Oct 2008  |
Bullshit. Integrity is exactly what he has. You take vows at marriage and he obviously believes in them, just because she broke them doesn't mean he should bring himself down to her level, that tit-for-tat crap is pathetic. I admire him for it. Oh and HSIAMetalKing I think you confusing integrity with hypocrisy its opposite. Integrity is about sticking by your principles and having a strong honest character. Nothing funny or being in denial about that. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
I wasn't talking about tit-for-tat crap. I was talking about someone claiming to be honoring a promise--because that is what a vow is--when it's possible the promisee doesn't care about the promise anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with her having "broke them" it has to do with her possibly having renounced them. Once a person has released you from a promise or a vow or an obligation--as opposed to having broken a mutual promise/vow/obligation--then there's no way to continue 'honoring' that p/v/o. Maybe you continue to perform your duties because you want to benefit the other person, but, then it's no longer about a p/v/o, it's about a free-standing act of kindness. And if she wants him to move on with his life, continuing to act as if he's somehow benefiting her by honoring those vows is certainly not an act of kindness. Like I said, we need more information to know what this is: it could be anything from an act of integrity to him trying to keep the moral high ground so to punish her better. We just don't know. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1173 Joined: 21 Oct 2008 |
You are right about us not knowing enough about the situation and sorry if I took a harsh tone with you, it was more directed at the guy who first quoted. I agree with you on the vow being broken as a valid view point. But he did say he was considering getting divorced and maybe to some people the vow is only broken by the officialness of the divorce. In that way he can say he never cheated within marriage, which might sound petty to some but then noble to others and if that's what he believes in then so be it. Which was kind of the point I was trying to make (not very coherently I admit). Him sticking by his principles of never cheating within marriage makes his claim of integrity valid. You can judge him on the merits of his principle for not cheating but to say he doesn't have integrity for sticking to that principle is wrong. P.s I'm tired. I hope that makes sense. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Makes plenty of sense--that's why I said "Maybe it's something totally fine, like you've got a personal thing about sex during marriage with people you're not married to." But if a principle is divorced from some direct harm that would fall to someone if it was broken, that's more...sticking by your principles than having integrity. Some component of integrity, I feel, should have to do with not harming another person on some level. |
Muckraker  Posts: 337 Joined: 31 Aug 2008    | Couldn't really understand all these posts saying how sexist this research was. But anyway, Looking forward for my marriage after the next 7 years ;_; |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3632 Joined: 8 May 2008     | Women cheat alot more than men so this topic is crap. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3310 Joined: 10 Oct 2008 |
So, I will get personal for your benefit I guess. We tried to work it out. She left once, had some affairs, came back, and now it just sucks. My reasoning is that I will not under any circumstances break my vow of not cheating. I am not doing this to make her feel bad nor I am I doing it to get back at her. I just abhor cheaters. I never cheated on any girlfriend and I will not cheat on my wife even though it is going down the tubes. It is just my personal code of ethics that I adhere to. I can control my sexual urges until after we split up. There are the legal matters to consider I won't lie to you, but they are far less important to me than my personal view of myself. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 194 Joined: 6 Aug 2008    | Wish I had a wife to cheat on... What the hell is a mistress by the way? I think I shall stay in my cocoon of stupidity and remain oblivious to the real meaning of words. And on that note, sex is awesome. This post has been brought to you by the words; Beguile, Philantrapist, Egg-plant and ... Doctrine. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
I wouldn't say that's integrity: that's really more about looking after your own self-image. Integrity is more--in my opinion--about protecting other people even when you could get away with hurting them.
The real question is why we have to 'control' our sexual urges to be in a relationship in the first place. I don't have to control my embezzlement urges to be in a business partnership; I don't have to control my homicidal urges to not stab someone when I've got a knife and they have their back turned. Shouldn't we be questioning the whole idea of monogamy if so many otherwise upstanding people keep having urges to have sex with other people? Nothing else works like that--banks don't look for tellers who can control their urges, they look for tellers without the urge to steal in the first place. No one looks for friends that will control their urges to abandon them--we look for people who don't want to abandon us in the first place. Why isn't the same true of relationships? |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
No, I think it means what you think it means. I think the question was 'is your mistress more physically attractive than your wife' as a way of figuring out if cheating has anything to do with being tempted by sex with someone more attractive than the person you're having sex with now. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 82 Joined: 3 Oct 2008    | Erm, why do Women cheat? Edit: and I can honestly say I have never cheated nor had the urge too. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3310 Joined: 10 Oct 2008 |
I disagree, but to each their own. There are many types of integrity, I am just talking about my own personal integrity.
Previous to all this happening when our marriage was good I did not have to try to control myself. It just came naturally. It was no issue at all. Now, well, now it just sucks. I will be honest. I have not had sex in well over a year. It is very depressing. But such is life I guess. Some would call me a fool for not cheating, but I won't. That is just me. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1146 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Your opinion on the meaning of words doesn't matter. From dictionary.com: Integrity: Primary concern with other people is altruism, not integrity. If part of *your* moral standards includes not hurting people even when you think you can get away with it, then you are exhibiting integrity if you uphold it consistently. But you can't replace a general term that means "adherence to moral principles" with "adherence to this specific principle". |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Right, and he said it's because abhors cheaters. Avoiding becoming something you abhor by means of not violating "moral and ethical principles" =/= adherence to "moral and ethical principles." Also, you're missing the distinction between connotation and denotation. From your source: connotation: 2. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning denotation: 1. the explicit or direct meaning or set of meanings of a word or expression, as distinguished from the ideas or meanings associated with it or suggested by it; the association or set of associations that a word usually elicits for most speakers of a language, as distinguished from those elicited for any individual speaker because of personal experience. Please learn to use a dictionary properly before correcting others by citing to one. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
It's not so much about you being a fool or not, it's about the implication that others lack integrity. That you're adhering to a moral principle more along the lines of not eating pork because it is an unclean animal than a moral principle like thou shalt not steal. Like you said, "There are many types of integrity, I am just talking about my own personal integrity." |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 512 Joined: 27 Aug 2008    | Best way I have heard it is,Imagine a casino men have 1k $1 chips and women have two $500 chips. |
On the Record Posts: 6716 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
It's more like women have $500 chips for a couple of days a lunar month, and $.01 chips the rest of the time. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1431 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 | Most likely for the same reasons that women do. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1578 Joined: 26 Mar 2008 | Of the times I've cheated (I'm not proud of it, but I'm going to be honest about it) it was because I felt that my partner didn't find me sexually attractive anymore. Then you get in a situation where you have another woman who is telling you how hot you are and it gets hard not to get sucked in by the attention you get given. Really, it all just boiled down to my ego not being satisfied. In western society we get force fed the message that sex is everything, and if you're not getting it, why not? Go out and do something about it. Buy new clothes, get a haircut, buy this product or just lower your standards. If I could have stopped and gone "you know what, sex is only a relatively small portion of my relationship with my partner and not worth throwing the whole thing away for" (and no matter how great the sex is, believe me, it's never worth that cost) I would have been much happier in the long run. But no, that's not what we're told and I believed it. What happened when I cheated? It stilled that nagging voice in me that kept saying "you could do better" or "you deserve more". However that got replaced with the stress of trying to cover up what I did, trying to make sure all of my stories matched and the unmistakable guilt of knowing that once your partner found out what you were doing it would rip their heart out. Once you've cheated nothing you can do can undo that. If your partner takes you back, you don't start all over at square one, you start in the negative figures and have to work hard to get back to square one. Once there you have to work extra hard to get back to the relationship you had before you cheated. I know; I'm living that reality now. Sorry for the essay, I hope it serves as food for though for others because in my experience cheating is never worth it. It seems great at the time, but the cost ends up more than the gain. There are three women who hate me and will never speak to me now because of cheating and at least one of them used to be my best friend. I can never get that back. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 512 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Do not underestimate the power of the penny slots. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2315 Joined: 10 Oct 2008  |
I may be missing something here, but how is "adherence to moral and ethical principles" a secondary meaning to integrity? it seems rather direct. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1611 Joined: 27 Mar 2008    | I must say, I cheat because they made the orignal Contra way to hard. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 93 Joined: 3 Aug 2008  | I'm 17, had about 5 relationships a few of which lasted longer than 6 months, and guess what? The only, and I mean the only example of cheating I've ever seen, beyond my dad cheating on my mom, was one of my ex-girlfriends cheating on me. The stigma you hold about "men" cheating is silly. Forget the sex, it depends on the PERSON, whether they cheat or not. An example is the gf that cheated on me, she cheated on me with my best friend, she was an absolute peice of shit in terms of character, so was the friend she cheated on me with, she was pathetic, and she proved that by cheating on me, the fact that she was a girl didn't matter. |
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I'd say taking out a hit on your spouse or beating them to a bloody pulp is objectively worse than having sex with someone else, but that's just me.
Personally, I don't think that I "own" my spouse or boyfriend's body and I make some allowances for stupid behavior because I'm not perfect myself. (The chocolate, it calls to me . . .) It's something you can't just address with an "I'm sorry" and an "I'll never do it again", because if the fundamental problems that led you to seek gratification outside your existing relationship continue, you WILL do it again. If you can identify some problems and both work on them (provided you want to work on them), the relationship may be salvageable.
If there aren't identifiable problems, of course, then he (or she) is just an ass and out the door he/she goes.