| (Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4) | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1416 Joined: 19 Jun 2008     | |
On the Record  Posts: 6550 Joined: 10 Apr 2007   |
You are: I was talking about "protecting other people even when you could get away with hurting them" being an associated meaning. |
Paperboy  Posts: 20 Joined: 18 Sep 2008   | I think people maybe also expect too much sometimes. Relationships might not be perfect and when a 'prince charming' comes along the girl is going to want that instead. Similarly a guy is going to fancy that pretty girl who flirts with him and gives him attention when perhaps his girlfriend has become a bit of a pain or needy or something. Basically I don't think it comes down to much aside from biology - nature made sex a very attractive prospect for us, and at the moment it is still stronger than people's feelings and conscience and other 'things that separate us from animals'. I am sure polygamy could possibly work on day but if you are trying something when you have entered into what society deems a relationship with someone it is just going to hurt feelings when some jerk cheats. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1092 Joined: 6 Oct 2008    | Stop reading your sister's cosmo magazines. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1074 Joined: 25 May 2008    | This makes me wonder; how about the people that these cheaters use to cheat on, how wrong are they? I am of course leaving the example of the person whose gf cheated on him with his bf out of this, that's just aweful. No I'm talking about the complete strangers, the people you only see coming by once in a while and never said more than 2 or 3 sentences to per occasion (from the perspective of the person who's being cheated on). Is it also their fault that the person who cheated did what he/she did? |
King of the Yetis  Posts: 2539 Joined: 15 Jul 2008   |
Yep. I may have murdered a few hookers in my time but at least I've never cheated. |
On the Record  Posts: 6384 Joined: 24 Apr 2008    |
i've played fable, its 500 gold per hooker and a few morality points. Casting level 5 inferno with the safety off is much more evil. |
Paperboy  Posts: 41 Joined: 15 Jul 2008    | Ron White had a saying on this issue that I agree with, I'll have to paraphrase it though. 'I'm a loyal dog but if you don't pet me every once in awhile it's tough to keep me under the porch.' |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 54 Joined: 17 Sep 2008     | I never cheated on any of my girlfriends, by my own calculations. However... meh. My fiancée, I met her when she was still in a relationship, as was I. That relationship (mine) had been going really badly for quite a while. Sex was long gone, and I was not feeling loved, respected, or wanted. We stayed together for a rather stupid reason; she for the façade of success that follows a "successful" relationship, and I because I was scared of being alone. When, considering, I already WAS alone. Anyway, I met my fiancée, and I fell in love with her HARD. One of those things that just smack you down and leave you babbling. She wondered if I was ill; she's blind, I was leading her by the hand to somewhere, and she was worried because of my trembling hand and shortness of breath. She fell in love with me as well, but being that we were both "taken", we danced, we talked, we laughed, but we did nothing more intimate than a hug. The camp we met on ended after two weeks, and we wouldn't have met again. My (now ex) girlfriend knew everything about the crush I had, and I kept to the straight and narrow... though she wasn't too happy about it, she didn't stop me seeing her even after I had offered to do just that. Well, my relationship crashed and burned over another, grave disagreement some months later; one involving the discrepancies in our plans for our future lives. I guess at that time I had already come to terms with this being how it would be; I felt only relief that it was over. My ex took it hard, and is still not speaking to me. I travelled to meet my summer crush, only really to meet someone whom I had talked to, and to do something on my own after four years of a relationship that had made me feel like I could do nothing alone. We met, and discovered that the chemistry was still strong enough to shoot sparks. Hmm. Up until this point, the story is just explanation; flavour text if you will. Here comes the relevant part. She was still in a relationship. It was also having some trouble, but I could not offer any future, anything solid, at that point. She did not want to go behind her boyfriend's back, no matter the trouble they were having. So... she did the weirdest thing I have ever seen. He knew that I was there, and that we had fallen for each other that summer (this was in the following winter), and that I was living with her. She told him, in advance, that she would sleep with me. They talked for a good long while about it, about what it would mean for their relationship, and so on. It was the weirdest thing I have ever experienced. He was, understandably, upset, I was... umm... weirded out something FIERCE, and well... I discovered how it was to be with someone who was attracted to me, rather than to the idea of being in a relationship. Judge me and her as you will, I regret nothing. In the aftermath of this, the two of them broke up a few months later. I was part of it, but he had been in love with another woman for a while at that point, and they went their separate ways amiably. My ex still maintains that my sleeping with another woman well over a month after our breakup was cheating, because we had met during the relationship, and she's not speaking to me. I think I "betrayed" her hopes of being broken up for a few months to let me realize how good I had it with her, which failed spectacularly as being away from her was the best thing to ever happen to me. A year after my love and her boyfriend broke up, we got engaged. Conclusion? Meh, none, really. It's a story, it's too close to me to really draw any conclusions. A lot of people find me, my fiancée or the both of us horrible people based on the story, but I can't bring myself to care about it. I'm undecided as to whether or not she "cheated" on her boyfriend. What she did was hardly a nice thing to do, but it was up-front and honest. She was unfaithful to their relationship, sure, but to "cheat" implies some base dishonesty to me, rather than brutal honesty. *shrug* |
Time Lord  Posts: 9745 Joined: 13 Feb 2008    | ... Wow...let's reduce all relationships to a bunch of must follow rules. What a crock. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2906 Joined: 10 Apr 2008  | The whole idea of 'cheating' is, to me, a sub-clause of a ridiculous, centuries old concept from the renaissance: "love" Men cheat because unless they find a girl who totally satisfies their egos they are not going to stop looking for that girl - it's human nature. Love is against human nature. Sometimes they do find the girl who satisfies their ego, but after a few years that girl stops making them feel good about themselves. The reason some cheating men can go back to their original partners and feel good about them again is because their original partners confront them and in doing so regain their ego-boosting qualities. This post is not sexist, that might or might not be a good thing; it would have been sexist if it made any kind of generalizing conclusion about guys vs girls, but it makes no conclusions, general or otherwise. Anyway that's my opinion, u think I'm wrong well urprobablyright |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2861 Joined: 7 Oct 2008  | Why do men cheat? To get some, of course! Why do men not cheat? To get some! Why do men breath? To get some! Long live us mighty men of manliness! Now if you'll excuse me, I have something I should be doing... |
Copy Clerk Posts: 54 Joined: 17 Sep 2008 |
My view on "cheating" goes along the lines of something someone said earlier in the thread... it's not about the sex, it IS about "breaking the rules". However, those rules are individual. I know people who have so-called "open relationships". They have sex outside of the relationship, both each on their own and together. Not randomly, but selectively. Not all that often, but often enough. To my mind, they are not cheating on each other at all. But they too have rules, boundries which are not to be overstepped. They speak about who they want to sleep with to each other, and if the other says "no", then they don't. Violating that rule would be cheating in their relationship, as would not discussing it beforehand be. On the other hand, I have friends in relationships who do not hug others, even close friends, because that intimacy is only to be shared between them. This is fairly anomalous in my circle of friends, but for them, hugging someone else would be considered borderline, and dancing with someone else would be cheating, for instance. "Cheating" is all about crossing boundaries, I find. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1505 Joined: 12 Dec 2007    |
People view this topic as sexist because of the naiveness of the study and the credence given to it. The emphasis of the article is that men cheat because their motives are different from women, this is almost by definition, sexist. Human behaviour is far too complex to whittle down between two groups! There are very few actions where biological factors of gender affect a person's behaviour. The outset of the study is flawed as it is plagued by hypothethical bias. The author looks at a group some who have cheated others who have not, this is the first bias, only evaluating men. The way to examine gender differences is to compare people who do cheat against those who don't then, filter the data between responses of women and men. The second bias is that cultural differences are not considered in the hypothesis. What we are actually looking at here is the explanation by these men of their actions based on conformist behaviour to the local cultural recognition of gender roles. The author focuses on a small group of men without taking into consideration religion, class, income, geographical location, culture, etc. Lastly, the study is far too small to be considered statistically significant. The piece is of sufficient quality to perhaps go into a fairly poor quality magazine such as Cosmopolitan or Loaded, perhaps even a really bad book by a marriage counsellor. Here the piece would be given credence by people who would be unlikely to take the time to consider it's bias and over-simplicity. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3875 Joined: 16 May 2008    |
while I was going to come into this thread and say just that, that's not what the post is about. it's about one specific doctor who did one specific study about why men cheat, which is valid. And if those numbers are accurate, that's really interesting and this is the first thread by this topic maker that I actually somewhat enjoyed reading. He had me up until "Iprian". |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1416 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 | I was going to tear the study a new one, but beddo beat me to it. The study is exceptionally flawed, and would not be published in any medical or psychological/psychiatric journal. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 411 Joined: 8 Jun 2008    | Because we have dicks, and the capacity to only think with one head at a time. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 857 Joined: 24 Mar 2008 |
I have to disagree with you, I'm not a big proponent of people having children outside of wedlock. Single men/women have to face much stricter adoption standards for this very reason. Additionally, if two people aren't in love any more, then I think divorce would be more of a blessing than a source of suffering. Even if one person was still in love, better to be put in a spot where they are not going to try to force a failed relationship. This is why I think a long courtship should premise a wedding. The "US government" *eyes roll, it's always "the government* does enforce child support laws, it is just that it is a victimless crime and the resources that could go to finding out where joe or jane divorced are presently located could be better used for finding muggers and serial killers. Methinks we have someone who has been through a divorce, I'm guessing because of an affair? |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 869 Joined: 7 Nov 2007  |
You just answered your own question right up here. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1113 Joined: 19 May 2008   | Because deep down, we all want to grow a tail and get back up in the trees. Come on, getting tail would be awesome! |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 703 Joined: 13 Mar 2008   | I broke up with my girlfriend because she cheated on me. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1146 Joined: 27 Aug 2008  |
I'm fully aware of the difference between connotation and denotation, but this is a really interesting idea. Are you saying that *it doesn't count* if one of the reasons you adhere to particular moral and ethical principles is that you don't like the person you'd become if you didn't? That's a *very* Kantian view of ethics, whereby an action has *no* moral significance if you have *any* personal interest in it whatsoever. It's a very deontological (duty-based) view of ethics. Nor is this *specific* form of ethics denoted or connoted by the term "integrity". You are still replacing the broad abstraction "ethics" with a single example of a *type* of ethics. In my view, it doesn't matter what *relation* you have to your moral principles--whether it includes personal emotional reaction or a "disinterested" one. In fact I find the idea of someone being "disinterested" in morality somewhat alarming. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2452 Joined: 5 Jun 2008 | Iv'e just read the OP and some early posts and I have a problem. Don't attck him for having penned this thing against guys. He didn't. Men cheating is the topic of this thread and the research because, lets face it, guys cheat. A lot. A lot more than women do. With that out of the way: I'm not married, but I once cheated on my girlfriend in highschool. The reason? pressure. That girl had wanted me for years and it was the night of the junior prom. She wouldn't take "no" for an answer. I was an idiot kid and I caved. I can honestly say I didn't want her, in fact, I didn't even climax. But it happened. And that was the reason. Also, I know a guy who cheated on his wife. His reason coincides with the first finding listed on this thread: emotional dissatisfaction. His wife was a complete bitch, and he was miserable. Here comes this hot young girl, pushing herself all over him at a time in his life when he was probably more unhappy than he's ever been. He gave in. Guys cheat for a lot of reasons. It's wrong no matter what, but it happens, a lot. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1505 Joined: 12 Dec 2007 |
I'd love to know where you got that information from. Let me guess you know a few people who say they cheated or know someone who did and they were mostly blokes. Well that settles it then, I'm sorry for questioning your stance. |
On the Record Posts: 6550 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
It would be, if that's what I was saying, but it wasn't--I think you've misunderstood me. It seemed more that what was motivating the person was *primarily* distaste for 'cheaters' and that his definition of a cheater was based on rules disconnected from whether they cause harm or hurt to others--like I said to him, more like not eating pork because it's an unclean animal than thou shalt not steal.
Oh, I think it's strongly connotated by the idea of integrity. The type of integrity he was talking about I think is closer to something like "observant." I also think there's a shift in the word integrity as we've come to see morality and ethics less as mandates for human behavior from on high, and more as rules that govern the freedom to swing your arms as wide as you want in a world where other people have noses.
I find the idea of morality being disjointed from whether it is actually harming someone else to be even more alarming when it is being pushed on others and isn't simply a personal code. He sort of retracted from pushing it as a general principle back to one more about just himself. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1146 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
I see, I see--you're assuming that disgust a la cheaters may or may not be rationally motivated whereas I'm assuming that it is rationally motivated barring further evidence.
I haven't observed any such shift, and I hang out with a lot of philosophical types. Generally dictionary.com is pretty good with regard to definitions.
Isn't it sort of weird to form principles if you don't think they apply to other people? As far as I'm concerned, morality is about hurting *yourself*--in the long term. And treating other people badly when they don't deserve it certainly constitutes hurting yourself in this manner. Sort of tying this back to the topic: I've met people who claim that "they don't care what happens to other people so it doesn't hurt *them* if they lie/cheat/steal/kill/whatever", but this is B.S. *even if it is true*: disconnecting yourself from the many people who can enrich and improve your life is hurting yourself even if you manage to force yourself through some psychological twist to where it "doesn't matter". :P Hence why cheating is bad: you're treating someone you've declared as important in your life and being dishonest toward them. Much better to be up-front about everything even though it's not fun right away. |
On the Record Posts: 6550 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
That's not a victimless crime. A victimless crime is where no person has complained to the government that someone has done them wrong, but the government steps in anyway to protect people from themselves. Child support is no less a 'crime' than someone refusing to pay their debts, and probably a lot more of one. |
On the Record Posts: 6550 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Rationally motivated or not, it's a personal feeling that has no effect on anything in the world but his own self-image.
I minored in philosophy and had about enough credits for the major, just not the right required courses. And I would say dictionary.com isn't really a great source for finding the deep nuances of a word--they are more trying to cover all possible meanings of the word.
Maybe, but, that doesn't mean people don't do it, just that you won't find them in religions with a missionary tradition.
But that's the thing: honoring a vow that the other person has no interest in seeing you keep isn't being dishonest towards them. If anything, it's a way of making them feel further guilt. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2205 Joined: 10 Oct 2008  |
thanks that makes more sense now. |
Muckraker  Posts: 332 Joined: 17 Aug 2008  | Why does this thread target men? Love them both never the less. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 219 Joined: 28 Aug 2008 | People usually end up cheating on their significant others because something in their relationship is lacking. the person who is cheating usually feels inadequate in some way. They aren't doing it because they're an ass, they're doing it because they're essentially looking for someone to make them feel important in ways that their boyfriend/girlfriend can't. Then there are those people who cheat because they can't grasp the concept of monogamy. They suck. |
On the Record  Posts: 6029 Joined: 25 Jan 2008  |
Monogamy is very overrated and out-dated, a moral/religious belief based on the idea that love is a limited resource and that one's mate is their property, to be coveted from the rest of the world. To quote from my long-buried totally ignored post...
|
On the Record Posts: 6550 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
It was a good post and the parts you have here I agree with, it just was um...the rest of it was a bit, well, there's a reason it's called so-so-biology. |
Beat Writer Posts: 219 Joined: 28 Aug 2008 |
i agree, but then I don't really see monogamy as being outdated. it's basically a choice. None of those people who get married have to but they do because they choose to. The problem is the people who think they need to be monogamist when they don't have to be. |
On the Record Posts: 6029 Joined: 25 Jan 2008 |
The thing with monogamy, or pretty much anything else we tend to think of as the norm, is that belief in such ways are beat into you from day one. You grow up believing in monogamy because it is the belief of the majority. It is the belief of the majority because the majority are religious, and most religions preach monogamy. As with anything from a religion, it's out of date superstition and propaganda passed off as the word of a god. God says to have one man and one woman in a relationship. We've already adapted to look past the hetero bias, gay couples are becoming more accepted every day. Next is the monogamy bias, and when it's gone, all the jealousy and possessiveness will go with it. How many homes are broken up each year because of an affair? Could you imagine if sleeping with someone other than your wife/husband was considered as irrelevant as a handshake? How many divorces have happened because of a handshake, I know of none. No more throwing things at eachother, no more years of bottled up resentment, no more lies and deceptions. People can be more honest and less clingy, because love and sex are not the same. This is a world I'd love to see before I die. |
| (Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4) | |
Reply to Thread
|
|
Not registered? Sign up for a free account! |
Exactly right, CancerDog. I was engaged for 2 years to a girl who was cheating on me and robbing me blind for most of that time. I've already spoken about the other things she did to me during that time which were even more heinous (in my not-so-humble opinion), and it truly does come down to the character of the person. Unfortunately, love/attraction tends to blind one to the defects in the other, and that can turn around to bite you.