As I understand it, the escapist is filled with many different people from many different cultures which is what leads me to this question.

Throughout the world there are obviously many different cultures, each with their own opinions on what is right and what is wrong. My question is, can one culture fairly and wisely criticize another culture and say that something is wrong regardless of what traditions, religious roots (for lack of a better phrase), or ideals that culture has?

Rather than give any direct shove to this topic by providing an example or my own opinion, I'll leave it at this for the time being and let the conversation take its own direction, where ever it may lead.

Cultures are like opinions; to each his own.

Gxas:
Cultures are like opinions; to each his own.

Within parameters. Someone is okay with sacrificing people to gods, denying the equality of women, promoting racial superiority theories, and a handful of other detestable things, and I for one am not going to just throw up my hands and say "to each his own."

Yeah, that's Western bias. But for us to sit here, protected and liberated as we are by our culture, and shrug when we hear about innocent people being denigrated and harmed by small-minded local traditions, is pretty shameful.

All things being equal, let everyone do their own thing. But those "things" have to be "equal" first. So maybe not democracy for all; but a people have to decide that democratically. Get what I'm saying?

Ultrajoe:
Of course you can criticize, but by the same token they have the right to ignore you.

Of course. That's why I'm not in the habit of seeking out people from other cultures and calling them out. I usually just ask a lot of questions because I want to learn as much as I can about whatever they are, because I'm that kind of over-inquisitive punk about pretty much everything.

All I said in my last post, I say theoretically. I really don't like confrontation and naturally try to get everyone to like me (BECAUSE I don't like confrontation). No doubt this would include cannibals, because it certainly has included misogynists and racists.

So I'm pretty much a flaccid social coward who won't commit to anything off-paper.

How I roll, G.

TheBluesader:

Ultrajoe:
Of course you can criticize, but by the same token they have the right to ignore you.

Of course. That's why I'm not in the habit of seeking out people from other cultures and calling them out. I usually just ask a lot of questions because I want to learn as much as I can about whatever they are, because I'm that kind of over-inquisitive punk about pretty much everything.

All I said in my last post, I say theoretically. I really don't like confrontation and naturally try to get everyone to like me (BECAUSE I don't like confrontation). No doubt this would include cannibals, because it certainly has included misogynists and racists.

So I'm pretty much a flaccid social coward who won't commit to anything off-paper.

How I roll, G.

You also probably anti-war.

Since I've been studying ethics in a variety of disciplines in my university degree I'd have to say that Cultural (including historical) Relativism is about the only theory I've found which has no major contradictions, assumptions of the viewer's superiority or inalienable universal absolute truths.

Cultural Relativism FTW! It promotes consideration of the context at hand and leads to understanding instead of angered argument.

I think there are a couple of very rare situations where you can, but most intercultural criticism is based on the hegemonic values of your own culture. Something like female circumcision can be condemned because it causes great harm and has no positive effects (unless you count denying women sexual pleasure a positive effect). Something like anime can't really be criticized because obviously it has relevance in Japanese culture. That doesn't mean that I have to like anime, though; it just means that I can't say that Japanese culture is inferior in some way to Western culture because Japanese culture created this phenomenon that I'm sick of.

Eggo:
Intercultural criticism isn't nearly as important as intracultural criticism.

Agreed. You can't criticise another culture unless you can do the same to your own first.

It depends; what viewpoint are we criticising from? By this I don't mean Modern Western though, but rather, do we believe at a root level that, say, killing people is bad? While there is no objective, rational argument you can make that killing people is in fact bad - you'll always end at "Just because, ok?" - if we accept that killing people is bad then we can indeed pass judgement on this or that culture.
There is another way in which we can judge a culture, and that is by looking at cause and effect. It can't be denied that levels of corruption vary from country to country. Nepotism, for instance, will never die, but governments, traditions, culture - all these can impact levels of nepotism, and how much it is accepted. While you can't say something like "nepotism is bad", you can say "high levels of nepotism in Country X allows men to reach positions of power for which they are unqualified." This statement is true, but it is implying that such a thing is bad by assuming that people should be in jobs they are qualified for. Why? To do a better job. Why is doing a better job so important? Because then more is done better. Why is it better to do more better? Because.... and so on until either the cultural relativist shuts up or his hypothetical opponent gives up. So the statement "nepotism allows men to reach positions they are unqualified for, and Country X has high levels of nepotism, so many people in Country X have men in positions they are unqualified for," is a true statement, implying that the truth it speaks of is a bad state of affairs is a value judgement.
So yes, it's perfectly ok to say that there is no objective - in the sense of scientifically provable - way to judge a culture/cultural practice as bad - but only by agreeing that there is no good or bad at all.

Either it's all okay to make fun of, or none of it is. I subscribe to the "South Park" mentality. Freedom of speech can't be selective, or it's not freedom of speech. By the same token, anyone has the right to criticize anybody else's culture. Sure, it's popular to gripe about particular cultures (like, say, mine,) but I think that nobody's culture should really be "off limits." If they react more harshly to criticism than I do, it's probably because there's more truth in the criticisms leveled at them.

And if they threaten to suicide bomb you, well, then you know your griping about their culture was really on the money.

Of course you can insult other Cultures. Should we laugh at the Mayans? Hell ya those guys were idiots who brought about the self destruction of their empire. Should we laugh at the Romans for their immorality? Yes they were idiots but at least they had a nice military for a while. America just has the best government known to man (with the theory of a flawed humanity). If we cant make fun of the chinese for eating dogs then I dont want to be right.

Fondant:

Gxas:
Cultures are like opinions; to each his own.

And, like opinions, most of them are wrong.

*Dances smugly*

Nothing is above critiscim. Not my culture, not yours, not his, not feminism, not partiotism, not god. NOTHING!

And yes, I will critiscise other cultures. Right Now:

Saudi Arabia: Your treatment of women is disgraceful. Pray mend it, lest I be forced to open a can of high-explosive whup-ass on thy nation once the Americans stop being interested in you.

Russia: You are barbaric, cruel and unnecersarily violent.

China: STOP WORKING SO HARD!!!! (Joke)

Africa: Were to begin....
1. Raping people is unnacceptable.
2. Ethnic cleanising is unacceptable.
3. Female circumsion is unacceptable.
4. Stealing things from others is unacceptable.
5. Land-snatching is unacceptable.
6. Jacob Zuma is unacceptable.
7. Corruption is unacceptable.

This is why Religion holds societies together. All your Africa 1-7 is basically the 10 commandments, actually all your points are. Just live by do unto others as you would do to yourself.

If they do the following things... Yes it's ok to critisize them:

Ethnic Cleansing.
Ritual Rape.
Ritual Killing.

Ultrajoe:
Of course you can criticize, but by the same token they have the right to ignore you.

What "right" is that? They have the ability to ignore you, sure-- until we come to their houses with guns and say, hey, idiot, stop doing fucked up shit to women and quit being a dick about your religion, or I'll culturalize your face with lead.

I'd call that fair, constructive criticism. And if they try to say shit, just remind them that they need to respect our culture, which includes our tradition of stomping all over theirs.

(This post does not reflect the views of the poster, and should be disregarded as just plain silly.)

HSIAMetalKing:

Ultrajoe:
Of course you can criticize, but by the same token they have the right to ignore you.

What "right" is that? They have the ability to ignore you, sure-- until we come to their houses with guns and say, hey, idiot, stop doing fucked up shit to women and quit being a dick about your religion, or I'll culturalize your face with lead.

I'd call that fair, constructive criticism. And if they try to say shit, just remind them that they need to respect our culture, which includes our tradition of stomping all over theirs.

(This post does not reflect the views of the poster, and should be disregarded as just plain silly.)

Criticising someone's beliefs and forcing your own upon them are not the same thing.

Liam Wolfy:
If they do the following things... Yes it's ok to critisize them:

Ethnic Cleansing.
Ritual Rape.
Ritual Killing.

But otherwise you cant critisize them? Dear Lord what kind of country will we become with this attitude. There is a right and a wrong there is a good and a bad.

Is it ok for them to steal money or inslave people?

Graustein:

HSIAMetalKing:

Ultrajoe:
Of course you can criticize, but by the same token they have the right to ignore you.

What "right" is that? They have the ability to ignore you, sure-- until we come to their houses with guns and say, hey, idiot, stop doing fucked up shit to women and quit being a dick about your religion, or I'll culturalize your face with lead.

I'd call that fair, constructive criticism. And if they try to say shit, just remind them that they need to respect our culture, which includes our tradition of stomping all over theirs.

(This post does not reflect the views of the poster, and should be disregarded as just plain silly.)

Criticising someone's beliefs and forcing your own upon them are not the same thing.

Obviously they're not the same thing. But saying "your culture is wrong and should change" is just a weaker version of "your culture is wrong and this is why you're going to change it, bang." People who lack the ability to do anything criticize. The other people make change happen.

Besides, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not even sure if I was trying to make a point.

HSIAMetalKing:

Obviously they're not the same thing. But saying "your culture is wrong and should change" is just a weaker version of "your culture is wrong and this is why you're going to change it, bang." People who lack the ability to do anything criticize. The other people make change happen.

Besides, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not even sure if I was trying to make a point.

The key difference is that the former gives the changee a choice in the matter. The latter does not. It's kinda hard to force liberty on someone without being a big hypocrite.

I can criticise anything I want for any reason I want. It's called Freedom of Speech (at least if I stay in this country or any other that supports it).

Whether someone listens or not is a whole different ballgame though. Freedom of Speech does not imply Obligation To Listen for the receiving party.

/S

Graustein:

HSIAMetalKing:

Obviously they're not the same thing. But saying "your culture is wrong and should change" is just a weaker version of "your culture is wrong and this is why you're going to change it, bang." People who lack the ability to do anything criticize. The other people make change happen.

Besides, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not even sure if I was trying to make a point.

The key difference is that the former gives the change a choice in the matter. The latter does not. It's kinda hard to force liberty on someone without being a big hypocrite.

Technically both situations give the culture in question the choice of whether or not to change-- the key difference is that they have different incentives for changing.

I'm not completely disagreeing, though. Like I said, they're two levels of the same class of magic. But no matter how you look at it, you're still criticizing their culture in terms of your own. I am of the opinion that no one has any right whatsoever to claim that their idea of a "good culture" is better than anyone else's, because there does not exist a rational basis for saying so.

Balios:

This is why Religion holds societies together. All your Africa 1-7 is basically the 10 commandments, actually all your points are. Just live by do unto others as you would do to yourself.

You realise by the same token religion can, and has, also caused most of the 1-7, and all of his points?

HSIAMetalKing:

Technically both situations give the culture in question the choice of whether or not to change-- the key difference is that they have different incentives for changing.

I'm not completely disagreeing, though. Like I said, they're two levels of the same class of magic. But no matter how you look at it, you're still criticizing their culture in terms of your own. I am of the opinion that no one has any right whatsoever to claim that their idea of a "good culture" is better than anyone else's, because there does not exist a rational basis for saying so.

I suppose that is true. But I think everyone has the right to criticise others. But they shouldn't be surprised if asked to back up their criticisms, or if criticised back.

Armitage Shanks:

Balios:

This is why Religion holds societies together. All your Africa 1-7 is basically the 10 commandments, actually all your points are. Just live by do unto others as you would do to yourself.

You realise by the same token religion can, and has, also caused most of the 1-7, and all of his points?

the added bonus the most common religion amongst these practitioners of barbarism is Christianity brought by the white man who performed most of these things. they are like children brought up in an abusive family, they learnt it from their "parents (the societies that brought them "out of the bush") and believe that it is okay cause they did it.

unfortunately the misuse of religion could probably be linked as a major factor to all of the worlds major conflicts. i would like to see a compulsory subject in schools of culture and religious education. so young people can learn about other cultures and religions and understand their beliefs and ideas.

BardSeed:

Eggo:
Intercultural criticism isn't nearly as important as intracultural criticism.

Agreed. You can't criticise another culture unless you can do the same to your own first.

The chance that you know what's wrong with your own culture and have the ability to somehow deal with the problem is also much larger.

With that said, I'll critizise who and what I want. They don't have to listen or change anything if they don't want to.

People tend to assume that you must have a perfect culture yourself to criticize someone elses'. While you may have an idea of what a perfect culture may be, no country actually has one.

People also get offended when someone "gets all up in their grill tellin' them they're wrong yo". Its a shame they think like that since the only time an issue ever gets resolved is when someone disagrees with it.

If you have some information on a way to better another group's culture, share it. Don't be afraid that they will throw a hissy-fit, they probably will. Just because someone gets upset, doesn't excuse you from the responsibility to help your fellow man when he is wrong.

Is that attitude pushy and intrusive? Perhaps, but once again, you'll do more damage to someone by neglecting to tell them what you deem to be critical information.