It should be illegal in my opinion. I don't get tipped for my work and never have so why should anyone else? Employers should pay a decent wage to staff. Also, the price of a meal should cover all costs, if you have to pay for service why do you not have to pay for rent on the crockery, cutlery, tables, chairs, general wear and tear, lighting costs, heating costs etc? Because you're being scammed!

I pay a tip if the staff have accommodated my needs well, else I give nothing. Personally though, tipping makes me feel very uncomfortable, why do I owe these people anything when I've already paid for it? Why do they try to make you feel cheap just because they couldn't get their lives together and get a decent job?

bkd69:
Yes, it is often the subject of lawsuits.

See that would not happen here. If an employer even tried it they would be hauled before the employment tribunal (i think thats still their official title) be given a huge fine and if they continued to do it, shut down and there would not even be a fight. Thats what laws are there for.

beddo:
Personally though, tipping makes me feel very uncomfortable, why do I owe these people anything when I've already paid for it? Why do they try to make you feel cheap just because they couldn't get their lives together and get a decent job?

Although I do agree on the "I already gave you your money in the price of the meal", dont you think thats kinda harsh. I mean I dont see anything shameful with waitressing, nor cleaners, lawn mowers or any of those jobs. Each job is needed and even being a doctor does not make you any better then a janitor. Without the janitor the hospital would be disgusting and would not be able to run. Give people their due. (except fucking waitresses who try to tell the chefs how to do their jobs. They carry plates for a living, where do they get off telling others what to do ? Those bitches can die horrible painful deaths <.<;;;)

avykins:

beddo:
Personally though, tipping makes me feel very uncomfortable, why do I owe these people anything when I've already paid for it? Why do they try to make you feel cheap just because they couldn't get their lives together and get a decent job?

Although I do agree on the "I already gave you your money in the price of the meal", dont you think thats kinda harsh. I mean I dont see anything shameful with waitressing, nor cleaners, lawn mowers or any of those jobs. Each job is needed and even being a doctor does not make you any better then a janitor. Without the janitor the hospital would be disgusting and would not be able to run. Give people their due. (except fucking waitresses who try to tell the chefs how to do their jobs. They carry plates for a living, where do they get off telling others what to do ? Those bitches can die horrible painful deaths <.<;;;)

Yeah, fair play, I was being overly harsh. Every job does need to be done and there's nothing but honour in paying the bills and supporting yourself and your family as long as what you are doing is honest.

My point really was how can you justify making other people feel cheap when you're in such a low skilled job because of your own choices in life.

The other night I waited at a restaurant door with my wife for five minutes before one of the three waitresses finally said, someone will be over in a minute. We decided to leave because their lack of attention towards us was so rude. If I had stayed I feel that I would have been within my rights not to tip or even better to have left a penny.

bkd69:

avykins:
Wow... US laws are fucked up. I just checked each states minimum wages and quite a few a low however each one is above $5 so should it not be illegal (if it was a real country) to pay below minimum...

So the company only pays up to minimum wage if you dont get any tips ? Id want to refuse any tips just so the damn company had to pay its due.

Yes, it is often the subject of lawsuits.

The problem is that the US federal government set a lower minimum wage for people who work in jobs where they receive tips as part of their income. The amount is around $2.20 an hour. And here's something to think about. If waiters only received minimum wage, service would go to crap because restaurants wouldn't be able to hire anyone worth a damn to do that kind of job for that little money.

I also think another problem here is that nobody who responded in this forum has actually tried to make a living as a waiter in a restaurant here in the US. I only did it for a month and believe me, that job is way harder than you think. If you don't believe me, get a job as a waiter and you'll see.

Tipping is absolutely necessary where I live. I live in Massachusetts. The minimum wage here is $8/hr. SERVER minimum wage, however, is only $2.63/hr. and I've never seen a restaurant that pays more than that around here. Servers are expected to make their money from tips and if you don't tip them, they aren't making enough money to live.

I know it's different in different areas. If servers get a decent normal wage, than tipping can be considered an extra, offered only for extra good service. But you need to know how a restaurant pays their employees before you decide not to tip.

Also, consider this: your average restaurant, not big chain restaurants or super expensive formal dining affairs, are not very profitable. They make their money by not paying their employees. Corporate restaurants (Friendly's, 99, Ruby Tuesday) also make their money by not paying their employees a decent wage. I know for a fact (because I've worked for most of them) that these companies do not care about their employees and so they pay them minimum wage.

Generally, you can tell how much a server is getting payed by how well they serve you. If they're only making 2.63/hour like I do here in MA, they'll probably be bending over backwards to make sure you're happy, because they NEED you to tip them well. It's not something they can live without, their paycheck at the end of the week is for $50, maybe.

As someone thats had many years of experience in the restaurant industry I still believe the problem to be the corporations. Many of the corporate chain restaurants that I mentioned before are TERRIBLE places to work. Serving is OK, since you can make decent money from tips, but working in the kitchen is the worst. I almost became a professional chef. I was gonna go to school and everything. Until I spent a few years working as a cook at a Friendly's. I was treated like a slave and payed barely more than minimum wage. I worked hard and completed management training as well, simply to be denied the promotion because they "... just wanted to get you to work harder for less. We were never going to give you a promotion."

Simply put, heres my position on the matter: TIP. It's not just a tradition, most servers need that money to survive and even if they don't, their job sucks more than you can imagine. Give them a couple extra buck and hope they find a way out.

I tip depending on service. If the service sucked, then no, if the service was great then why not.

Lucan - if the law is broken, it's still not your duty to pay for the waiters to live. Sure, it's expected and in this case (since the law makes a distinction between wait staff and other jobs) justifiably expected, but still not obligatory (I'm assuming - some restaurants include a % fee for the wait staff in the bill, which is legal as long as that's mentioned in a way you're reasonably expected to see).

LucanDesmond:
Tipping is absolutely necessary where I live. I live in Massachusetts. The minimum wage here is $8/hr. SERVER minimum wage, however, is only $2.63/hr. and I've never seen a restaurant that pays more than that around here. Servers are expected to make their money from tips and if you don't tip them, they aren't making enough money to live.

I know it's different in different areas. If servers get a decent normal wage, than tipping can be considered an extra, offered only for extra good service. But you need to know how a restaurant pays their employees before you decide not to tip.

Also, consider this: your average restaurant, not big chain restaurants or super expensive formal dining affairs, are not very profitable. They make their money by not paying their employees. Corporate restaurants (Friendly's, 99, Ruby Tuesday) also make their money by not paying their employees a decent wage. I know for a fact (because I've worked for most of them) that these companies do not care about their employees and so they pay them minimum wage.

Generally, you can tell how much a server is getting payed by how well they serve you. If they're only making 2.63/hour like I do here in MA, they'll probably be bending over backwards to make sure you're happy, because they NEED you to tip them well. It's not something they can live without, their paycheck at the end of the week is for $50, maybe.

As someone thats had many years of experience in the restaurant industry I still believe the problem to be the corporations. Many of the corporate chain restaurants that I mentioned before are TERRIBLE places to work. Serving is OK, since you can make decent money from tips, but working in the kitchen is the worst. I almost became a professional chef. I was gonna go to school and everything. Until I spent a few years working as a cook at a Friendly's. I was treated like a slave and payed barely more than minimum wage. I worked hard and completed management training as well, simply to be denied the promotion because they "... just wanted to get you to work harder for less. We were never going to give you a promotion."

Simply put, heres my position on the matter: TIP. It's not just a tradition, most servers need that money to survive and even if they don't, their job sucks more than you can imagine. Give them a couple extra buck and hope they find a way out.

That's why I think it should be illegal though. The business owners should not be profiteering to that extent off the needs of their staff and the goodwill of their customers. It's despicable behaviour, they should have to pay the minimum wage and get rid of the tipping system.

Ssyrie:

The problem is that the US federal government set a lower minimum wage for people who work in jobs where they receive tips as part of their income. The amount is around $2.20 an hour. And here's something to think about. If waiters only received minimum wage, service would go to crap because restaurants wouldn't be able to hire anyone worth a damn to do that kind of job for that little money.

I'm pretty sure Daniel Boulud's waiters get paid more than minmum wage as it is now, and even if restaurants were forced to pony up minimum wage, some would still get paid more.

And I've eaten both in restaurants where gratuity was included, and where it was optional, and I've experienced no difference in the quality of service. Though I've never eaten in a restaurant in France.

Ssyrie:

I also think another problem here is that nobody who responded in this forum has actually tried to make a living as a waiter in a restaurant here in the US. I only did it for a month and believe me, that job is way harder than you think. If you don't believe me, get a job as a waiter and you'll see.

I'll cop to never having worked the gig. But I still stand by my preference of having restaurants pay minimum wage.

To steel this off scrubs, you don't tip a doctor why would you tip a waiter/waitress. Seriously your already paying over the odds why do we then pay more?

bad rider:
To steel this off scrubs, you don't tip a doctor why would you tip a waiter/waitress. Seriously your already paying over the odds why do we then pay more?

Some people make donations to their doctors' practice/hospital. Those are the kind with money to burn, though.

The reason is that one is customary, the other isn't. My problem is that the custom has become more of an unwritten law these days: I've been shouted out of places for being a non-tipper..

BKD - any restaurant that mistakes the definition of "gratuity" to the extent that they confuse it with "obligatory" loses my custom after the first time - and they don't get the "gratuity" first time either.

Molikroth:

bad rider:
To steel this off scrubs, you don't tip a doctor why would you tip a waiter/waitress. Seriously your already paying over the odds why do we then pay more?

Some people make donations to their doctors' practice/hospital. Those are the kind with money to burn, though.

The reason is that one is customary, the other isn't. My problem is that the custom has become more of an unwritten law these days: I've been shouted out of places for being a non-tipper..

BKD - any restaurant that mistakes the definition of "gratuity" to the extent that they confuse it with "obligatory" loses my custom after the first time - and they don't get the "gratuity" first time either.

Yeah, that said I normally only tip if it's been above what I expect from regular service oh and if I have the money of course...

I don't know how it works elsewhere in the world, but in the U.S., most servers get paid sub-minimum wage because our income is supposed to be through tip money. I am a server, so of course I'm biased and I think if you don't tip, or tip poorly, you're a cheap SOB who deserves the worst kind of death. (Really, if I get stiffed I hope they get into car accidents on the way back). I'm only technically paid $4.50 an hour, and I have to declare my tips so that gets taxed. Working 30 hours a week, I might end up with a $70 check over a two week pay period.

I dunno about places like Coldstone or cafe type places...because those people make at least minimum wage. You should always, always, always tip a server though unless they were just straight up awful...and even then I can't bring myself to stiff someone.

Most younger people say when they go out they don't have enough money to tip, to which I reply you shouldn't be going out to eat in the first place. If you are cheap and convinced that tipping is "wrong" or whatever, because you don't want to conform to society and all that crap, then don't go to restaurants. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Tipping is part of the dining experience, so if you don't want to tip, don't go out to eat.

bad rider:
Yeah, that said I normally only tip if it's been above what I expect from regular service oh and if I have the money of course...

Just out of interest what kind of stuff gets a tip from you? A talkative waiter?

Here's a spin on this, do you find that richer people tip more of less?

I've been minimum wage a fair amount, and generally when I've gone to a restaurant with friends, who are mostly on £30-50,000 a year, I'm the one putting the largest tip down, and I mean I'm putting a few pounds down, what I can afford, its kinda sickening to me that they're pulling in a few thousand a month and they can't find a couple of coins for a tip.

Its always 'the service wasn't all that', I don't remember a blowjob being part of restaurant service, they're generally polite, friendly, quick, what more does he want?

Sense - my guess is that the people pulling in £30-50k a year went to college/university for years, put the work in and earned that £30-50k a year. They earned their money, why should they act as enablers for those too lazy to do what they did?

I live in a cuture when tipping would earn you nothing more than a funny look. Besides, minimum wage is somewhere around $12 US depending on the exchange rate.

Molikroth:

bad rider:
Yeah, that said I normally only tip if it's been above what I expect from regular service oh and if I have the money of course...

Just out of interest what kind of stuff gets a tip from you? A talkative waiter?

Yeah actually, or if they go out their way in some way. Eg If i drop something they shoot off to get me a new one like a drink etc.

In Japan tipping is considered offensive to wait staff because it implies they require payment to do what's expected of them. If they go above and beyond their job descriptions, for example by not glaring at customers, I'm assuming they do so because they're genuinely friendly - or because being a waiter is really, really boring.

SenseOfTumour:
Here's a spin on this, do you find that richer people tip more or less?

It's kind of up and down. Blue collar people tip pretty well, but broke-asses (i.e. teenagers) usually tip for shit, although I've been surprised before. Rich people will tip well if your service is phenominal, but otherwise will hover around the 15% range.

To me, good service is getting shit done. I don't care how nice you are, or how talkative you are, or whatever. Keep my glass full, get what I need when I need it, and I'll pay you for it.

@Molikroth

That's called an excuse to be cheap. Not to mention that many servers are going through college while taking on a serving job.

SteakPhish:

ITo me, good service is getting shit done. I don't care how nice you are, or how talkative you are, or whatever. Keep my glass full, get what I need when I need it, and I'll pay you for it.

I'm the same as you, Steak. Problem is I feel the extra stuff waiters throw in in the hopes of being tipped is their choice, so while it annoys me, I still wouldn't pay them not to do it. They get their wage and that's all they're entitled to.

To extend the above analogy, doctors don't diagnose you with cancer as fast as possible in the hopes of being tipped if you survive, and they don't slow the process down in the hopes of being left something in the will. They get the wage they earned - through a skilled job and years spent learning. Waiters get what they deserve and much more despite doing an unskilled job, and this is what annoys me.

EDIT: Steak - I don't need an excuse, and I resent the term "cheap". If I'm paying $70 for a meal I can hardly be accused of being a miser. I just have a problem with giving people money when they aren't entitled to it, and my problem with this only escalates when they get offended because of it.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFUDbOldMs

Have a watch to see what I think about tipping ;)

Molikroth:
Steak - I don't need an excuse, and I resent the term "cheap". If I'm paying $70 for a meal I can hardly be accused of being a miser. I just have a problem with giving people money when they aren't entitled to it, and my problem with this only escalates when they get offended because of it.

If you're paying $70 for a meal and you don't tip, yes, that's being cheap. A $70 meal takes a fair bit of work to prepare (unless you're getting hosed, and then you're not being cheap but instead wasteful) and if you can't afford to reward good service with another $10 on top then you really can't afford to pay the $70 on food you could prepare yourself for a quarter of that.

I do tip, 15% if the service is good and more if it's great, because I know these service folks have to deal with jerks and brats all day for low pay. That doesn't mean that the server can count on my money and treat me like dirt, though; I have left (the infamous) two-cent tips before when the service was sub-par.

Heck, I even tip the pizza guy assuming he isn't grotesquely late.

-- Steve

bad rider:
To steel this off scrubs, you don't tip a doctor why would you tip a waiter/waitress. Seriously your already paying over the odds why do we then pay more?

If there was a system in place where you paid the doctor directly, then, yes, you would be expected to pay the doctor directly.

Yeah, it's a pretty stupid system and, yeah, it's weird how it's still quasi-informal and some people still call it a "gratuity" and shit, but if you're getting services that are priced based on that stupid system then, yes, you should actually pay for them.

-- Alex

I can afford to spend whatever I like on things I want. I can't afford to pay for others to do that.

By your logic, Anton, not throwing money into the cup of every bum who tries to shine your shoes without being asked makes you cheap.

Molikroth:

SteakPhish:

ITo me, good service is getting shit done. I don't care how nice you are, or how talkative you are, or whatever. Keep my glass full, get what I need when I need it, and I'll pay you for it.

I'm the same as you, Steak. Problem is I feel the extra stuff waiters throw in in the hopes of being tipped is their choice, so while it annoys me, I still wouldn't pay them not to do it. They get their wage and that's all they're entitled to.

To extend the above analogy, doctors don't diagnose you with cancer as fast as possible in the hopes of being tipped if you survive, and they don't slow the process down in the hopes of being left something in the will. They get the wage they earned - through a skilled job and years spent learning. Waiters get what they deserve and much more despite doing an unskilled job, and this is what annoys me.

EDIT: Steak - I don't need an excuse, and I resent the term "cheap". If I'm paying $70 for a meal I can hardly be accused of being a miser. I just have a problem with giving people money when they aren't entitled to it, and my problem with this only escalates when they get offended because of it.

I'll reiterate I'm not sure how it works in the U.K., if it's even at all different than in the U.S. Tipping isn't mandatory in a legal sense, but it might as well be. I wouldn't be able to support myself working 50 hours a week if I was only making $4.50 an hour. The reason restaurants are allowed to pay such low wage is because tipping makes up for it. Restaurants generally don't make a lot of money, especially ones like mine (I work at Red Robin.) Between the 16 or so servers we have, 10 or so cooks, 5 managers, bussers, hosts, and the bartenders, not to mention costs for food and supplies, every penny we get is spent elsewhere. It's not that restaurants just don't feel like paying more, it's because they can't.

Tipping, whether people like it or not, is the norm. You're supposed to tip when you go out. Don't think of it as paying more than you have to, because it is more or less required. This is how we make our money. This is how we survive. Without tips, we don't have jobs (not serving jobs anyway), plain and simple. Serving is a great job to have when you're going through school because you don't need to work 40 hours a week to stay afloat.

We aren't entitled to the money per se, but there's no denying that tipping is part of the restaurant experience. You tip when you go out to eat. It's part of the cost. Saying we don't deserve tips is basically saying we deserve to make $4.50 an hour. If you get good service and don't tip, you deserve tainted food and much as we deserve the giant "fuck you" we just got from getting stiffed.

So why be a server then? $$$ Serving is awesome, because you do make a decent amount of money. It's not boring, and time goes by fast. I shouldn't be penalized for working a job I enjoy doing over working retail or some shit like that. Serving may be an unskilled job, but you bust ass when you work, day after day. It's a hard job. We work just as hard as anybody else does.

Molikroth:
I can afford to spend whatever I like on things I want. I can't afford to pay for others to do that.

By your logic, Anton, not throwing money into the cup of every bum who tries to shine your shoes without being asked makes you cheap.

Noooo, it's not. I didn't ask the guy to shine my shoes, but I did ask the waiter/waitress to bring me food.

Of course, you could consider that if no one tipped then restaurants would have to charge more in order to pay their servers more... and your $70 steak dinner (sheesh, when I go lavish it's $60 at most, including appetiser, wine, coffee, and dessert... your steakhouse is screwing you blind) will end up costing $80 anyway.

-- Steve

"You tip when you go out to eat. It's part of the cost."

This is the type of mentality that adds an element of spiteful glee to the more usual "why should I?" reason for not tipping. It makes me happy to think I might be irritating someone with this opinion who was serving me.

Anton P. Nym:
your $70 steak dinner (sheesh, when I go lavish it's $60 at most, including appetiser, wine, coffee, and dessert... your steakhouse is screwing you blind) will end up costing $80 anyway.

Everything in the UK costs twice what it does in the US, particularly food and electronics.

What I meant by my analogy is that the bum and waiter both expect money for something they weren't asked to do. Waiters have to ferry food, it's their job. They don't have to add the frills like chatting to you and whoever's with you, or recommending what they like.

Molikroth:
"You tip when you go out to eat. It's part of the cost."

This is the type of mentality that adds an element of spiteful glee to the more usual "why should I?" reason for not tipping. It makes me happy to think I might be irritating someone with this opinion who was serving me.

It's easy to justify being selfish when you don't legally need to act otherwise.

No tipping = Servers don't make money

Servers don't make money = Servers quit jobs

No servers = No restaurants

Anton made a good point. If restaurants had to revert to paying their servers minimum wage, then they would have to charge more for their food. You're paying the same amount either way, unless you don't tip. The only reason people don't tip is if they don't want to spend any extra money, and nobody does. If you go out though, prepare for it. It's that simple.

Molikroth:
"You tip when you go out to eat. It's part of the cost."

This is the type of mentality that adds an element of spiteful glee to the more usual "why should I?" reason for not tipping. It makes me happy to think I might be irritating someone with this opinion who was serving me.

In the US it's a social reality, not an opinion.

-- Alex

I tip what a waiter deserves. If they are shit then they get shit. If they are very great then I tip big. If they are average then I tip average. Attitude plays a big role in this. I go to a restaurant not just for good food but for a good atmosphere. That goes for any place, be it Dennie's or a five star steak house.

While I enjoy saving a bit of money by not tipping, I wouldn't tip even if the tip was deductable from the cost of the meal. This means that I'm willing to pay a bit more for food to preserve my principles.

If I go out, I prepare to ignore the waiter to the best of my ability except in responding to any permutation of the question "What do you want?" and the phrase "here's your bill".

Molikroth:
While I enjoy saving a bit of money by not tipping, I wouldn't tip even if the tip was deductable from the cost of the meal. This means that I'm willing to pay a bit more for food to preserve my principles.

If I go out, I prepare to ignore the waiter to the best of my ability except in responding to any permutation of the question "What do you want?" and the phrase "here's your bill".

What principles would those be? We aren't asking you sacrifice a goat or something. It's chipping in a few dollars after a meal. Again, saying we don't "deserve" the extra money is basically saying we deserve the crappy money that we make for doing more work than people who do make minimum wage. I know that being nonconformist is cool and everything, but screwing innocent people in the process isn't. Sometimes you just need to bend over and deal with stuff and not be so stubborn to save yourself a couple bucks.

Steak, by "principles" I mean "Taking into account the fact I disapprove of wait staff feeling entitled to tips and have grossly misconstrued the meaning of 'gratuity', I refuse to enable this mindset".

With $5 I can buy a regular meal for myself from the store for the next day. With $1 I can buy a drink. With a cent, I can buy a piece of candy from the kiddy section of stores. I would rather have any of these things than give a waiter a piece of lint from my pocket.

Since I've already explained to you I wouldn't mind paying more for the meal if restaurants had to pay minimum wage (which they are, over here - if they don't the staff can report it), I don't see how that makes me cheap.