Okay as a waiter I feel like I have to respond to this. Wait staff in restaurants do not even make minimum wage. A waiter is one of the very few professions where the minimum wage laws do not apply. A waiter's income is primarily the money they make in tips. Then they don't even get to keep all of that, a percentage of their tips goes to the other people in the restaurant, the staff in the kitchen, the bartender, the hostess, etc.

Where I work, I make $2.13 an hour.

I think tipping is F-ing ridiculous. Companies should be forced to pay their workers a decent wage and not push said expenses off on me, the paying customer. It's true, employees of certain industries *are* taken advantage of in wages and it isn't fair. But it's also not fair to take that monetary injustice to the consumer. Worse yet, there are many asshats who think handing you a cup of coffee deserves a $2 bonus, *even when they are paid properly*. F-that. Entitlement sucks. For those who own their own businesses, just charge enough that you don't need tips. Those customers are going to give you the money anyway right? Even in the service industry, tipping should not be necessary. Just do your damn job, and companies just pay your damn workers. Even if they go out of their way, it's still their job. I don't mind giving a compliment to the manager so they can get a bonus from *the company*, but it's not *my job* to pay them to do *their job*. It's not fair to have to shell out additional money for something *I've already paid for*. I should not be forced to be nickel and dimed to death or face cranky employee's wrath. I'd rather bring my own help or do it my goddamned self!

Mumpadump:
Okay as a waiter I feel like I have to respond to this. Wait staff in restaurants do not even make minimum wage. A waiter is one of the very few professions where the minimum wage laws do not apply. A waiter's income is primarily the money they make in tips. Then they don't even get to keep all of that, a percentage of their tips goes to the other people in the restaurant, the staff in the kitchen, the bartender, the hostess, etc.

Where I work, I make $2.13 an hour.

Well, then I guess waiters represent the entire restaurant. If I have a terrible experience with a waiter then that waiter has wasted my time at the restaurant. Like I said previously, I go to them for not just food but the experience. If that experience is ruined by a very bad waiter they get no tip.

BTW, I never tip coffee jockeys or any other similar workers. All they are doing is selling coffee or tea. No tip for that crap. It is too easy. Want more money? Get another job.

And where do you live that it is legal to pay you a paltry $2.13 an hour? In every State in America that is illegal because of the Federal minimum wage.

In the U.S. tips can be taken off of what the employer pays in towards the minimum wage, so if the employer is a real prick they get minimum wage anyway.

And in Washington, it costs now about $7 for a meal at a fast food place. The workers make $8.07 before taxes and even after whatever employee discounts they get can't afford to eat where they work.

Tipping on the other hand should never be expected, I only do it when the service deserves it.
Hover over me while I'm reading the menu, no tip.
Ignore me after it's down, no tip (I don't go in during budy times, so other people aren't an issue.)
Don't refill my drink, no tip.

Mumpadump - as a waiter, can you explain to me why it's my problem that you're not paid minimum wage, or why it means I owe you money for doing what you do to get your $2.13?

I share the opinion of Mr Pink on this subject, in that if they do serve me well I will tip, but I don't usually tip more then 15%... And I never tip if they already add on a percentage to my bill for the waiter/waitress

Okay, I have two years experience serving tables. It is in my opinion that servers should be tipped for the work we do and here's why:

In the US (where all my experience comes from. I am unaware of the customs of other countries and would not presume to know that I do), servers generally work for less than minimum wage. In Arizona, the minimum wage stands at $6.90/hour. Servers get $2.13/hour. Now, I realize the employee has agreed to the pay before taking the job, but we do it because we know the potential for a tip is involved. Nothing is set in stone, but tipping is our tradition. The unfortunate side is that restaurants have taken advantage of that. I do not agree with it.

So we say to ourselves, "The employee agreed to his/her wage, therefore I do not owe them anything for doing their job." You'd be right. But who here really knows the duties of a server? The majority here seems to have never served tables before and is making their assumptions based on what they see servers doing during their shift. Here's the fact, servers are not paid to wait tables. We are paid to clean the restaurant, up hold the Health Code set down by the government, and possibly some other tasks depending on the restaurant. The AGREEMENT between the employee and employer is, servers do those duties and they get the chance to serve tables for tip. It is not a requirement of the job. I could pass 'my tables' onto another server and simply do my cleaning duties and I would meet the requirements of the job.

Currently, this line has also been blurred. It is now assumed by the restaurants that customer service now falls under a server's duty at the same pay rate. We as employees have made the mistake of allowing this because, more often than not, we need to be employed. Rarely does anyone become a server because it is a career choice. We do it because we need a source of income and server work is easy to get. So the server now has a few more duties, this time to the customer. They are: Take and ring-in the order, serve drinks, bring the food (sometimes done by others hired for this specific task), and drop the check. EVERYTHING else above and beyond that is done because the server is trying to create an enjoyable atmosphere and earn a tip. We do not have to bring you extra napkins, condiments, drinks, remake your order, clean your messes, and put up with rude or mean guests. We do it so we can get paid.

Case in point, I was waiting a table with a young child. I brought out the food, and the child threw-up on me, the table and some of the food. I cleaned the table, brought napkins and water to the parents to clean the child, found them a different table, and remade their meal. They left me not so much as a thank you. I refused them service when the came back. If you don't want to pay me, I don't have to serve you. I will pass your table on to the sixteen year old who could care less.

MOLIKROTH: Your logic that not giving bums money makes you as cheap as someone who does not tip is flawed. Bums are on the street and beg. They are not offering a service. You come into my place of business, ask to be served, and take up my table for hours. You are getting something, so pay for it. Also, I resent you calling servers lazy. I am currently in college wrapping up my education and I serve because it is one of the few jobs that is flexible enough for me to work and attend classes. Trust me, I've been looking for a more sturdy job and no one will hire me because I have conflicts during the week with classes. If I can't be completely open, they won't hire. I serve because I want a better life for myself and my family, and right now this is how I have to do it. I hope you never have to go through serving. I hope you never have to experience how stressful it is. I hope you never have know what it's like to work 13 straight hours, no break no lunch, and only earn $20. I hope you never have to experience what it's like to be treated with nothing but rudeness for the day. But if you do, and you serve me, you bet your ass I'll be tipping you 20%, regardless of how good or bad your service was. I've been through it, I know what it's like.

Most put a lot of effort into earning tips. So its down to what you think they deserve for the service.

Lead Fox, that is all well and good. But it does not address the fact that tips are usually given upon a job well done. It is not a given, they are not a privilege, tips are EARNED. I am never going to go to a restaurant that adds a percentage on to my bill. Screw that. So what, I pay a tip even if they give me shitty service? No fucking way in any world is this ging to happen. Good service(at least) or NO TIP.

Lead Fox - I was very interested to learn that waiting tables isn't actually part of the job. I was under the assumption that it was part of your job.

However, you have made the distinction yourself - you get the opportunity to wait tables. That means that the choice is yours, and whether or not it will pay off is a gamble, as with the previous point (going "above and beyond" as some people have been citing as a way to "earn" a tip). Therefore, I am still secure in my decision that wait staff are not entitled to tips. Entitled to accept them, sure, but not entitled to expect them.

avykins:

bkd69:
Yes, it is often the subject of lawsuits.

See that would not happen here. If an employer even tried it they would be hauled before the employment tribunal (i think thats still their official title) be given a huge fine and if they continued to do it, shut down and there would not even be a fight. Thats what laws are there for.

beddo:
Personally though, tipping makes me feel very uncomfortable, why do I owe these people anything when I've already paid for it? Why do they try to make you feel cheap just because they couldn't get their lives together and get a decent job?

Although I do agree on the "I already gave you your money in the price of the meal", dont you think thats kinda harsh. I mean I dont see anything shameful with waitressing, nor cleaners, lawn mowers or any of those jobs. Each job is needed and even being a doctor does not make you any better then a janitor. Without the janitor the hospital would be disgusting and would not be able to run. Give people their due. (except fucking waitresses who try to tell the chefs how to do their jobs. They carry plates for a living, where do they get off telling others what to do ? Those bitches can die horrible painful deaths <.<;;;)

In the U.S. the employment law enforcement agencies will levy a small fine, and force one manager to take a class on how to get around the law that they violated legally next time so they don't get fined again. Great system isn't it?

rottenbutter:

If they put forth the extra effort, I'll tip them. If they don't, I wont.

Have you ever considered that they would only put in the extra effort due to a previous notable tip?

Molikroth:
Everything in the UK costs twice what it does in the US, particularly food and electronics.

Which might be of some bearing to the discussion if I was American...

What I meant by my analogy is that the bum and waiter both expect money for something they weren't asked to do. Waiters have to ferry food, it's their job. They don't have to add the frills like chatting to you and whoever's with you, or recommending what they like.

If that's all you want, fine. Waiters have to ferry food, true, but they don't have to give you anything else such as prompt service, showing up for coffee/water refills, getting you your bill in a timely manner, etc. Heck, if you want to argue down to fine points, what's the incentive for Joe Server to give you your food while it's still warm if there's someone else on the floor who's willing to outbid you for prompt service?

-- Steve

Seriously in this aspect it is my opinion that the U.S. is generally insane. Tips are a gift, not a requirement. I think it's sick that the waiting staff would ruin your food just because you didn't tip - or even worse, didn't tip ENOUGH according to them - last time you ate there. I work at a garden centre. I help customers every day I work there. I help them find what they need, give them advice on what would grow better on X kind of soil etc. And when they finally buy something through my help, why would I have to expect I get a couple euros for helping them carry a plant to their car? It's my damn job, I get paid for it! I have to say I still live at home and go to school so my wage doesn't support every aspect of my life that is necessary for survival but therefore I wouldn't get a job like that when I go live on my own. My point being: I also provide a service, the assistant of the mechanic who fixes your car also provide a service, they don't get tipped. Why do waiters need to get tipped because their service is bringing you food instead of helping the person fixing your car or getting heavy pots from the top shelves?
Yes I understand it doesn't pay too well to wait tables and not get tipped but it's my opinion that tipping is still supposed to be a courtesy, not something you do because you're afraid that if you don't the waiter will piss over your steak and call it gravy.

Anarchemitis:

rottenbutter:

If they put forth the extra effort, I'll tip them. If they don't, I wont.

Have you ever considered that they would only put in the extra effort due to a previous notable tip?

That is bull shit. Every waiter should make their respective restaurant a great place to eat no matter who they are serving. Extra effort should be given on every single customer. That is who restaurants survive. If shitty service is given they die very quickly. The business of food is a tough one. Service is often one of the main reasons people come back.

I pretty much always tip at restaurants, usually the standard 15-20% tip depending on my opinion of the waiter. I think tipping shouldn't be necessary, but due to the fact that restaurants in my part of the United States (the Southeast) can get way with paying waiters less than fifty percent of the minimum wage which is not enough to live on as it is in this state, I feel inclined to tip my waiters.

I do not however tip bartenders. Bartenders make over minimum wage (usually quite a bit over it) and are usually in such a rush that they fail to make drinks properly in the first place and hope that I'm too intoxicated to realize it. I've only tipped a bartender once, and that was because A:) he was my roommate and B:) he gave me a large discount and free drinks.

Anton - if the food is delivered cold I don't eat, don't pay, and write a letter to the manager. If wait staff are driving away custom and therefore profit, do you think the manager will accept "I wasn't being tipped" as an excuse?

If I need a refill - which I pay for anyway, are drinks free in US restaurants? - I flag a waiter who isn't carrying anything and ask him.

The problem is when I'm expected to tip. Tips were only meant to supplement the meager wages of waiters back before we had the minimum wage. In the states the system is rather fubared it would seem, but in the UK the tips are on top of the wages they get.
However the staff rarely get 100% of the tips, and in cases where you pay by card, often they get nothing.
So I usually don't bother unless it is a privately owned place, rather than a chain.

Molikroth:
Anton - if the food is delivered cold I don't eat, don't pay, and write a letter to the manager. If wait staff are driving away custom and therefore profit, do you think the manager will accept "I wasn't being tipped" as an excuse?

If I need a refill - which I pay for anyway, are drinks free in US restaurants? - I flag a waiter who isn't carrying anything and ask him.

Refills are generally free on all non-alcoholic beverages in restaurants.

axia777:
[quote="Mumpadump" post="18.77539.946050"]Okay as a waiter I feel like I have to respond to this. Wait staff in restaurants do not even make minimum wage. A waiter is one of the very few professions where the minimum wage laws do not apply. A waiter's income is primarily the money they make in tips. Then they don't even get to keep all of that, a percentage of their tips goes to the other people in the restaurant, the staff in the kitchen, the bartender, the hostess, etc.

Where I work, I make $2.13 an hour.

This is typical of American wait staff. They are paid under minimum wage, because the expectation is that, with tips, they will wind up making a relatively decent salary. That's how it's legal.

It is part of American culture to tip at restaurants, with adjustments made up or down based on the quality of service you receive. The standard used to be 15% of the bill, but I believe 20% is now considered standard. I'll tip 25% or more if I receive particularly good service, but otherwise, it's 20%, unless the service was really bad. And even then, I try to differentiate between truly bad wait service and, say, just a busy damn restaurant.

Susan Arendt:

axia777:
[quote="Mumpadump" post="18.77539.946050"]Okay as a waiter I feel like I have to respond to this. Wait staff in restaurants do not even make minimum wage. A waiter is one of the very few professions where the minimum wage laws do not apply. A waiter's income is primarily the money they make in tips. Then they don't even get to keep all of that, a percentage of their tips goes to the other people in the restaurant, the staff in the kitchen, the bartender, the hostess, etc.

Where I work, I make $2.13 an hour.

This is typical of American wait staff. They are paid under minimum wage, because the expectation is that, with tips, they will wind up making a relatively decent salary. That's how it's legal.

It is part of American culture to tip at restaurants, with adjustments made up or down based on the quality of service you receive. The standard used to be 15% of the bill, but I believe 20% is now considered standard. I'll tip 25% or more if I receive particularly good service, but otherwise, it's 20%, unless the service was really bad. And even then, I try to differentiate between truly bad wait service and, say, just a busy damn restaurant.

Wow, paying someone $2.13 an hour is a crime. That is just terrible.

But I still wont tip for crappy service. I also tip around %20-%25 for good service. I have tip much more for great service. It all depends on the attitude of the server.

Susan Arendt:
This is typical of American wait staff. They are paid under minimum wage, because the expectation is that, with tips, they will wind up making a relatively decent salary. That's how it's legal.

My problem with the legality of employers stiffing wait staff is that a tip is a private gift from you to the person who brought you a meal, unrelated to the cost of the meal and nothing to do with the employer. To me reducing their wage not only on the off-chance they might make it up anyway, but on the fact they get money from another source, smacks of stupidity.

If tipping wasn't considered a requirement, and the way staff are paid wasn't broken, I might consider tipping if I enjoyed what the waiter said, or if I were to ask him what's good and got a decent recommendation or whatever. However, most wait staff irritate the hell out of me ("is this your girlfriend, then? Aaww, you're such a nice couple" when eating with my sister) and would get a reduction in pay if I could arrange it. This is why I'd prefer for the wait staff to just take the order, bring the food and not bother me otherwise.

poleboy:

Still, it's not really the customer's fault that your employer is paying you too little. The restaurant business is brutal, but it seems wrong to me that the customers are expected to artificially keep a business going by paying more than you are asked for. Imagine the same set-up in any other business.

Yes, it's completely wrong that customers should have to make up for the restaurants ripping off their employees. But I always tip anyway, and tip well, because whether it's right or not that's what the system is. People who stiff the waiter may be taking food out of his kid's mouth.

Besides, if they forced restaurants (particularly chain restaurants) to actually pay minimum wage (instead of the $1.50/hour plus tips I used to get), food prices would go up. It's the same difference -- $10 meal and $2 tip, or $12 meal in the first place.

Yunatwilight:
Besides, if they forces restaurants (particularly chain restaurants) to actually pay minimum wage (instead of the $1.50/hour plus tips I used to get), food prices would go up. It's the same difference -- $10 meal and $2 tip, or $12 meal in the first place.

I'd rather pay the $12 total, and not care how the restaurant divides it up, than be considered immoral for refusing to enable restaurants to do what they do.

If everyone stopped tipping, restaurants would have to rethink their profiteering tactics or lose their employees and have to close. Between the tips stopping and restaurants realizing their employees are all quitting or being replaced with Mexicans there'd be a lag in the wait staff being able to eat properly (considering the two weeks' required notice before you can leave), but that's the restaurant and the governments' responsibility and the consumer should be attributed no part of it.

I usually tip well, because after working in a service industry where a good deal of my money was from tips that started to steadily dwindle as time passed (I was a curb boy/cart pusher at a grocery store), I know that getting tips are important. However, I will give more or less if the service was exemplary or bad. And by bad, I mean things like giving me the wrong order and then getting pissed off when I ask them to take it back.

I agree with Anton. No where in our job description does it say we have to offer prompt service. I will spend my time getting tables that will tip what they want, when they want. It is in my opinion, if my tables aren't going to look after me, why do I need to look after them? I have bills to pay just like everyone else, and I have to secure the income to pay them each month. Molikroth has a point, we, as servers, play the gamble. But I'm going to play the 'sure' bet, and not waste my time on the long shots.

Molikroth - You a make another point, the choice to wait tables is mine, and I choose to help those that tip.

I must apologize, I wasn't clear on the drink situation. In the US, soda, coffee, tea, and possibly some juices, are usually free refills. You pay for the first glass, and as a courtesy, we'll give you another should you want it. Alcohol is a different matter.

Most managers started as servers, and not being tipped can be a viable excuse. Usually managers take the side of their staff. Again, in the US, people who do not tip are the minority. The servers who give them less then great service are usually the good ones because they've been around long enough to remember who tips and who doesn't. More often then not, management would rather keep a good server over a bad customer.

And really quick, servers don't tamper with the food. To be caught doing that can be really bad, and to get away with it would mean that everyone in the kitchen would have to be in on it. You'd have to be one major jerk to get the entire kitchen staff pissed at you enough to tamper with your food.

Tipping in the UK is mostly for decent service, since it's not like the states with lower than average pay.

I do bar work, and sometimes wish i'd get some tips though.

It's a cultural thing. In the US, tip is part of the salary. It just happens to be adjustable by the people receiving the service. If the restaurants were to increase the pay to servers, the food prices would increase - food service margins really are that tight. By leaving the food prices lower, the restaurant allows the patrons to adjust for good, acceptable or bad service.

If you are in the US, it is proper to tip, unless service is terrible. From my years of waiting tables, the servers actually filter their tip money down a chain of employees. Generally, 1% of total sales goes to each the bar staff, the host/hostess and the bus staff. Additionally, servers are required to report 10% of total sales to the IRS as tip money. That's 13% of sales that are gone or reported as income whether they actually earned it or not. On a couple of bad nights, I actually had to report, and be taxed on, money I didn't make because people don't follow tipping customs.

There's generally a house-added service charge or linens fee in Europe - you're paying a tip in that. It's just mandated there.

You guys collectively make several decent points. I still don't give a damn whether or not waiters starve to death, and still don't feel they should feel entitled to a tip.

However, now that I understand waiting tables is optional (still very surprised to learn that) perhaps I'll stop being such an asshole to waiters. I still won't tip them, though. As a pessimist I never gamble, and I feel that ensuring wait staff don't win every time is as helpful as the pittance they'd get from me anyway.

Just out of interest, since ferrying food is optional on the part of the waiter, who do I talk to about taking my own order to the kitchen, carrying my own food and pouring my own drinks and tallying up my own bill?

I normally figure out the 10% it would be then add an extra dollar or 2 depending on how expensive my bill is.

the 'correct' thing to do is to tip 10% regardless of service quality and tip more if I liked the food and service because the waitstaff these days generally have to share all their tips with the cooks.

if I hate my service and the food it means I'm never coming back and therefore I don't tip even though it's rude.

you're supposed to tip at salons too except if it's the owner of the salon in which case you are not supposed to tip at all.

Molikroth:

Susan Arendt:
This is typical of American wait staff. They are paid under minimum wage, because the expectation is that, with tips, they will wind up making a relatively decent salary. That's how it's legal.

My problem with the legality of employers stiffing wait staff is that a tip is a private gift from you to the person who brought you a meal, unrelated to the cost of the meal and nothing to do with the employer. To me reducing their wage not only on the off-chance they might make it up anyway, but on the fact they get money from another source, smacks of stupidity.

If tipping wasn't considered a requirement, and the way staff are paid wasn't broken, I might consider tipping if I enjoyed what the waiter said, or if I were to ask him what's good and got a decent recommendation or whatever. However, most wait staff irritate the hell out of me ("is this your girlfriend, then? Aaww, you're such a nice couple" when eating with my sister) and would get a reduction in pay if I could arrange it. This is why I'd prefer for the wait staff to just take the order, bring the food and not bother me otherwise.

So, if a server gave you what you wanted (brought you your food, drinks, check quickly with no small talk and the minimum of questions), you would tip them?

If everyone stopped tipping, restaurants would have to rethink their profiteering tactics or lose their employees and have to close. Between the tips stopping and restaurants realizing their employees are all quitting or being replaced with Mexicans there'd be a lag in the wait staff being able to eat properly (considering the two weeks' required notice before you can leave), but that's the restaurant and the governments' responsibility and the consumer should be attributed no part of it.

Can we leave race out of this? If we want to talk in generals about servers fine, but to start saying things like a Mexican server is worse at his job than a non-Mexican server is not something we need in this conversation.

corroded:
Tipping in the UK is mostly for decent service, since it's not like the states with lower than average pay.

I do bar work, and sometimes wish i'd get some tips though.

I tip bartenders on how strong they make my drink. It is just beer or wine nor so much because it is just a pour. But with the mixed drinks I usually tip $1-2 per drink.

Yunatwilight:

But I always tip anyway, and tip well, because whether it's right or not that's what the system is.

You tip well even for crappy service?

UK licensing is pretty strict, you have to make them to certain strength, unless you have a cocktail licence (where you can free pour). Basically i'm hamstrung. Only way i can do it is to make em laugh or be speedy (or both)

From what i'm told min $1 a beer, or 10% of a round is acceptable in the states. Useful to know.

Lead Fox - it's a fact that employers take advantage of immigrant employees, legal or not. Considering most Mexicans are just happy to be in the country (from what I understand about the US - over here we have the same thing with Polish people), they're also happy to work for a pittance. If restaurants refused to make up proper wages if people stopped tipping, the Mexican guy who sweeps streets for fifty cents an hour will jump at the chance to wait tables for two dollars an hour, and I doubt Dennie's (that's a US chain, right?) is going to perform a stringent background check upon application.

Also, no, I wouldn't pay to be left alone. Like I said last post, I'm the joker in an otherwise awesome hand.

I always tip. Always. It's my belief that if you don't have enough money to tip, you don't have enough money to eat at that restaurant. I DON'T tip places like fast food joints because I feel no need to pay extra for my crappy burger and fries.

That all being said, this is a decidedly American opinion- servers in the US are only paid, by their employer, some $2.15 an hour, which is essentially nothing because all that goes to taxes (yes, that is how much they make BEFORE taxes, social security, etc). Servers NEED tips to get buy, and you forget that they often pool tips at the end of the night and split it with busboys and the like.

Of course, I've heard that in many countries, particularly in Europe, the tip is included, so I can see the problem there, but here in the US, you better tip, damnit.

EDIT: Don't even start with immigrant employees. Those people are the backbone of the industry in the US and nobody realizes that their filet mignon was made by someone here illegally from Honduras. The restaurant business in the US depends on hard-working immigrants more than you could imagine. c.f., Anthony Bourdain's book Kitchen Confidential.