I have noticed on these forums a certain coincidence. Those who express a lack of friends, romantic partners, popularity, and other forms of social measure also seem to have little respect for their fellow man, and often deem the people they encounter as beneath them. What I'm curious about is Which came first, the disrespect or social unease? It's obviously a cycle, and it's highly possible that for each individual it varies, but I think it would be neat to see what we believe starts things spinning.

Larenxis:
I have noticed on these forums a certain coincidence. Those who express a lack of friends, romantic partners, popularity, and other forms of social measure also seem to have little respect for their fellow man, and often deem the people they encounter as beneath them. What I'm curious about is Which came first, the disrespect or social unease? It's obviously a cycle, and it's highly possible that for each individual it varies, but I think it would be neat to see what we believe starts things spinning.

I imagine it's unique on a case-by-case basis, although if I had to hazard, I'd suggest disrespect. For someone's social unease to get to a point where it would cause disrespect, I would assume it had a root in being placed. Most often than not, to alienate a large group of people, the best way is through disrespect on a grand scale.

Although this is personal conjecture, so take it with a jar of salt.

Also, I haven't seen you around much, Larenxis. Have you dumped us for another forum? It's because we're not good in bed, isn't it?

NewClassic:
Also, I haven't seen you around much, Larenxis. Have you dumped us for another forum? It's because we're not good in bed, isn't it?

I spend most of my time in PMs. Where have you been?

zhoomout:
I would politely like to disagree with you. A lack of friends popularity etc, is often due to a lack of confidence, and that is different.

On a forum, people are anonymous which some interpret as being given free rein to be as much of a dickhead as they want.

But you say it right there, they want to be a dickhead.

Larenxis:

NewClassic:
Also, I haven't seen you around much, Larenxis. Have you dumped us for another forum? It's because we're not good in bed, isn't it?

I spend most of my time in PMs. Where have you been?

Mostly in the User Review section of late, with a bit of time trolling the Gaming Discussion. Not as intelligent discourse as the native Off-Topic, but Off-Topic has been consistently very little comment that I really want to comment on, so I've mostly been stopping by to make sure something I feel like talking about hasn't shown up.

Although this thread seems to have broken that trend. Go team Larenxis, I guess. That aside, it's been rather sparse for NewClassic-friendly discussion as of late, but this might just be me. Plus, I've been on a large writing kick, which means a lot of my time's being eaten by reviews. Plus Chapter 4, which is always a phantom project going on in the background (and a proverbial Schrodinger's Project), as well as the RPG I'm designing, which gained decent popularity, and takes a lot of time and devotion.

Intersperse that with work, and you see why I've been a bit busy. I'm planning on upgrading to a new OmniCore processor, so maybe that'll help me multi-task a little more efficiently. Until then, I suppose my time will just have to be capitalized on when it has the opportunity.

Well NewClassic I look forward to reading about that in my inbox. Until then, I shall rerail this.

You see zhoomout, I don't see a lack of confidence and a lack of respect as separate at all. I have a theory that when I am not confident, it is because I fear someone does not want to hear what I have to say. This comes from not viewing myself and the other person as equals. I don't respect them enough to be understanding.

EDIT:

fish food carl:
Am I right in guessing Larenxis here tried to put a title in italics? Or am I so very uncouth that I miss some form of satire?

I did, and it did not work out, but I find it charming nevertheless.

Larenxis:
Well NewClassic I look forward to reading about that in my inbox. Until then, I shall rerail this.

You see zhoomout, I don't see a lack of confidence and a lack of respect as separate at all. I have a theory that when I am not confident, it is because I fear someone does not want to hear what I have to say. This comes from not viewing myself and the other person as equals. I don't respect them enough to be understanding.

That makes no sense. A lack of confidence comes from the fear of not being considered equals. If anything, a lack of confidence means you think your below people, not above them.

rottenbutter:

Larenxis:
Well NewClassic I look forward to reading about that in my inbox. Until then, I shall rerail this.

You see zhoomout, I don't see a lack of confidence and a lack of respect as separate at all. I have a theory that when I am not confident, it is because I fear someone does not want to hear what I have to say. This comes from not viewing myself and the other person as equals. I don't respect them enough to be understanding.

That makes no sense. A lack of confidence comes from the fear of not being considered equals. If anything, a lack of confidence means you think your below people, not above them.

It all depends on how you deal with that lack of confidence.
Some people just put up with it and become the downtrodden, the meek who, the saying goes, will inherit the earth.
Or they just become "losers" with a "why bother?" attitude. They'll be withdrawn, quiet, never giving their opinion, wondering why people don't like them - and they are often extremely likable once you crack open their shell. I speak from experience here, both first- and second-hand.
Other people try to overcome it, and they can do this in one of two ways: assertiveness and assholeness. The assertive one will smile more, try to be more talkative, get more involved. Then they realise that it's not so hard to make friends or be liked. Again, I speak from experience :P.
And the asshole will try to cover their flaws by pointing out everybody elses', cover up their fear of being disliked by setting themselves above others. Alternately, they may just give up on being nice, as it "obviously" isn't working for them, the downtrodden.

That's just my take on it, interpret that how you wish.

That's not precisely a cycle except that it is most likely behavior learned in the home and passed on from the guardians. It's more of a cause-effect relationship. You see others as less than you, so they don't want to hang around you. Cause->effect. Having people not want to be around you does not necessarily cause you to think that they're beneath you. The more logical pattern would be to think that there is something wrong with YOU because YOU have no friends! If they know they are being deliberately disresptful, then they have no one to blame but themselves! You don't make good friends by being mean. Like gravitates to like with people (not magnets!) and you will only attract other disrespectful people if anyone at all, since you see all other people as inferior to you.

However, if all other people are inferior to you, then why would you want to surround yourself with these people anyway? There is a fallacy occuring somewhere in their minds to cause them to behave this way. Either they think that confidence is expressed in the belittling and degradation of others, or... I really don't know. People do also generally gravitate to others that are confident and charismatic, and I think they might be confusing how one expresses these pesonality traits. They think that this behavior should win them friends and lovers and instead it drives them away. Instead of thinking something must be wrong with their worldview, they continue to behave in the way they think the world works and complain when it doesn't.

Beyond that, I have no idea. We should ask them what their parents are like. That might help shed some light on the subject. It is clear to me however that these people need therapy.

Larenxis:
What I'm curious about is Which came first, the disrespect or social unease? It's obviously a cycle, and it's highly possible that for each individual it varies, but I think it would be neat to see what we believe starts things spinning.

It varies; I know dicks who became geeks because they weren't cool or likable, and I know geeks who can be dickish because "No one likes me!"
Whether it was the chicken or the egg, though, there's still a chicken and it's still the fowl's fault: cut the crap and work on your social skills. 'Work' was chosen deliberately: people don't like you for 'who you are inside' because they don't see your inside until you have a well-practiced outside to draw them in. That outside is all art and artifice - and no artist was ever just born.
Edit: Dear god, I've become one of those 'got it together' forum lecturers I so despise. No one listen to me: I'm too pretentious to live.

Larenxis are we starting the NewClassic trend to bold people's names?

On topic: It's the chicken or the egg here.

But maybe things aren't as obvious at it all seems. Don't mean to blow what you're saying but it could be different in every case. Perhaps they have little confidents in themselves so push people away, or were hurt by someone.
But I know you're talking about those 'dicks' in society. Those type of people could have just been brought up that way as well. Too self-centered to care for the likes of anyone else.

Then again, they could be like me and are in all fact better than the lot of you! Guys? Why are you leaving me?

I believe that your generalisation is too broad of people who are unsocially inclined, and would like to attempt to specify the reason behind these people who lack respect.

Its when people are bitter about their situation, and with bitterness comes lack of respect for other human beings sometimes. Bitterness is basically jealousy and if you treat people differently because you are in a different situation you are just trying to pretend you are not jealous.

I would say that there a lot of people out there (myself included) who are in the situation you explained in your first post who still manage to be polite and get on with everyday life.

PurpleRain:
Larenxis are we starting the NewClassic trend to bold people's names?

I had to embolden NewClassic's name, and then it felt exclusive to not make zhoomout's name bold as well.

Saskwach:
It varies; I know dicks who became geeks because they weren't cool or likable, and I know geeks who can be dickish because "No one likes me!"
Whether it was the chicken or the egg, though, there's still a chicken and it's still the fowl's fault: cut the crap and work on your social skills. 'Work' was chosen deliberately: people don't like you for 'who you are inside' because they don't see your inside until you have a well-practiced outside to draw them in. That outside is all art and artifice - and no artist was ever just born.
Edit: Dear god, I've become one of those 'got it together' forum lecturers I so despise. No one listen to me: I'm too pretentious to live.

I think this just plays into what I was talking about though. Not seeing other people as good enough to understand and appreciate me for who am, so I bullshit them and attempt to control their perceptions. Without respect, friendship is just superficial.

I became how I am because I sincerely hate [most] people. Disdain is a part of the hatred in most cases, however, I can respect certain people and still despise them. For example, there are some people I know who don't agree with my amorality, but understand their own adherence to a moral code is inherently selfish and are fine with it (confusing if you didn't read the first thread I posted in here, no doubt, but I can't be bothered searching for it).

My misanthropy stems both from my dislike and disrespect of the beliefs/opinions of people in general (I'm talking about the type of person I'm likely to encounter on the street) and dislike/disrespect of their inability to comprehend anything else. For example, in my one and only attempt to join a debating club, my amorality offended so many people I was kicked out. The fact that I didn't immediately start chanting what the leader of their hive mind was telling them to ("HURR, TERRORISM R RONG" - it was after some bombing on London subways) somehow insulted them.

So my attitude stems largely from the expectation that everyone I meet will be an idiot. However, since the internet exposes users to people they'd otherwise never meet, I've met many intelligent people who I can get on with despite differing beliefs. All it takes is the understanding that morality isn't democratic, and after that I would say I'm pretty friendly.

Larenxis:
Without respect, friendship is just superficial.

This statement rings true. I respect all of my friends in different ways. Having no respect reminds me of those 'prissy' girls at school stabbing one another behind each other's backs. In that situation, friendship seems like an acessory.

The social unease came first and then people start to rationalize that by saying that everybody else is beneath them. In other words, "it's okay that I'm not able to fit in with them, because they're dicks"

Thread over.

Now who wants Pina Coladas?

Dating a misanthrope as I am, I can pretty safely say: The disrespect is the effect, not the cause.

Simple fact: people tend towards selfishness. In following such a path, they will tend to stand on others to get what they want. Some people, sometimes through no fault of their own, get stood on more than others before they get their back up. Once they do, the 'holier-than-thou' misanthrope is born.

Some of us move past that stage - I know I have - but it's not easy. It doesn't help that getting stood on tends to do no favours for your self-esteem, which is a cornerstone of liking and trusting others. Not to sound cliched, but how can you like (and trust) another if you can't do the same for yourself?

I respect people. I don't think that people are beneath me. I have far too much self-loathing and far too little self-respect to think that anyone is beneath me.

Sometimes, as I believe it is in my case, people will not socialize and interact with others because of a perceived deficiency in themselves - not in others.

zhoomout:

Graustein:
The assertive one will smile more, try to be more talkative, get more involved. Then they realise that it's not so hard to make friends or be liked.

I see myself as more of that one because I do try and have won many friends by being polite and getting involved, it just seems to take me longer than some people who speaking comes more natural to.

I've learnt that not everybody's worth it, really. I'm extremely introverted if I don't care what you think, because your company isn't worth the effort it takes for me to poke my head out of my shell. If you knock, I'll probably let you in though. If I do give a rat's ass about your opinion though, then I'm the life of the party. Well, the get-together.
Yeah, I hate big groups. Never understood why people'd want to jump up and down to boring repetitive music (the same three obnoxiously loud chords over and over just doesn't cut it for me) rather than just sit and chat about... well, anything. I find that kind of social interaction much more rewarding.

Well, that turned into a rant. Anyway, my take on the whole deal.

Almost same time, though social unease led to disrespect. As I interacted less I listened more and came to realize that most of the people I was surrounded by were idiots/assholes or annoyed the crap out of me. Though admittedly I only disrespect people I know i think that if I thought about it it looks more likely that disrespect comes after social unease as people deal with their problem in basically the same way. by not caring about people's opinions of them or not caring about people's opinions at all.

I hope that made sense...

I'd probably fall into the category of disrespecting e-hole.

If I were to venture a few guesses, I love arguing but most people in my real life are uninterested in talking about anything deeper than grass roots. Online I can find topics I want to discuss, but in said topics I find people I deem to be idiots rather fast when they spout off an opinion different to my own. The disrespect really only starts when they won't listen to reason and I become frustrated with not being able to slap them in person.

Then there is the fact that none of it really matters. Ill never know any of you, so the selfish aspect comes into play where I may as well say whatever makes me happiest-noone is forced to read it so I don't feel awful about it anyway. That said I feel bad when noone responds to anything I say, that to me feels much more like disrespect than direct words-yet of course it is instead lack of respect for my unauthoritative voice or just a general lack of substance in my posts failing to rouse interest....

Emotion and sarcasm also fail epicly over the net, so sometimes people can come across as condecending unintentionally.

Larenxis:
I have noticed on these forums a certain coincidence. Those who express a lack of friends, romantic partners, popularity, and other forms of social measure also seem to have little respect for their fellow man, and often deem the people they encounter as beneath them. What I'm curious about is Which came first, the disrespect or social unease? It's obviously a cycle, and it's highly possible that for each individual it varies, but I think it would be neat to see what we believe starts things spinning.

Oh my god I've been thinking the same thing. I expressed it myself in a thread about trolls, and why they do what they do.

And the main reason that I could come up with was that they are incredibly socially inexperienced.

I'm a highly social person, and get a lot of interaction with people, therefor I know how to treat people with respect and kindness. I've had real friends (Well, more like aquaintainces) before who are the 'hermit' type, and one pattern I came up with was that they all have a strange bloated sense of self importance, and they seem to believe they are somehow superior to everyone else, mentally and physically, even if they are small and weedy.

But meh. There's no excuse for a lack of manners and respect, and contrary to what some believe, the internet forums aren't a free for all, only built for those willing to stand the onslaught of sarcasm and hostility. They're for debates, and idea sharing, and conversation.

Ago Iterum:

But meh. There's no excuse for a lack of manners and respect

I don't agree. I don't know about normies but my respect has to be earned. It isn't difficult to earn. You don't even have to agree with everything I say. You just have to understand your way of thinking isn't the only one, and it certainly isn't "correct" no matter how many others agree with you.

The above ties into why I'm not interested in normies' silly rituals of manners and civility. While I don't go out of my way to annoy or provoke people, if it would inconvenience or annoy me in the slightest to participate, I opt out of your silly traditions. For example, "Please" and "thank you" don't hurt me at all, make normies happy and so I use them. However, I don't observe "minute's silences" on any memorial days no matter where I am - not that I'll start shouting for the sake of it, but if I'm with my dad or a friend our conversation continues unchecked. By the same token I don't withhold unpopular opinions because they might annoy small-minded people.

I still don't understand how many people can't make friends easily I mean I consider everyone underneath me and know for a fact that I'm better then every human I have so far encountered, yet I am still massively popular and have a wide range of friends that doesn't mean I actually have to like or care about them. Also why should I respect people, do you respect the insects on the ground. No you do not you simply crush them beneath your feet and that's roughly the way I feel about people there something that's just there, people are not going to go away so I may at least tolerate them and if they get in my way I will destroy them.

Molikroth:

Ago Iterum:

But meh. There's no excuse for a lack of manners and respect

However, I don't observe "minute's silences" on any memorial days no matter where I am - not that I'll start shouting for the sake of it, but if I'm with my dad or a friend our conversation continues unchecked.

Not even on memorial day? 1 minute of silence is all you have to give up for men and woman that gave their lives up for you.

Ignoring them is incredibly disrespectful, and shows how much you take things for granted. If people do things for you, and you couldn't care less, then... I can't even begin to explain how rude that really is.

And as for 'silly traditions' referring to manners and politeness, it's common respect that were the foundations of civilisation itself. People working together and such. As damn cheesy as it sounds, I'd rather have lots of happy friends and a loving family, and my respect and civility, than any material possession I own.

Luckily, I'm lucky enough to have all of those things.

george144:
I still don't understand how many people can't make friends easily I mean I consider everyone underneath me and know for a fact that I'm better then every human I have so far encountered, yet I am still massively popular and have a wide range of friends that doesn't mean I actually have to like or care about them. Also why should I respect people, do you respect the insects on the ground. No you do not you simply crush them beneath your feet and that's roughly the way I feel about people there something that's just there, people are not going to go away so I may at least tolerate them and if they get in my way I will destroy them.

Too bad you also see grammar as being 'underneath you'.

Not nice, insults, ARE THEY? And referring to my previous post, note the bloated sense of self importance and power. "people are not going to go away so I may at least tolerate them and if they get in my way I will destroy them".

Ago Iterum:
Not even on memorial day? 1 minute of silence is all you have to give up for men and woman that gave their lives up for you.

Ignoring them is incredibly disrespectful, and shows how much you take things for granted. If people do things for you, and you couldn't care less, then... I can't even begin to explain how rude that really is.

I don't perceive fighting in a war I don't care about as doing something for me.

My dad had similar objections, Ago - "If not for those people, you would have grown up screaming 'seig heil'". My response is that, even assuming I was like my dad (i.e. disapproved of the National Socialists), I'd have grown up happy with the situation. To counter this he pointed out that Hitler disapproved of time-wasting, which meant video games if developed at all would be no-nos, and my only source of fun would have been soccer and other sports, which I despise. However, having grown up around them and participating in them I imagine I'd have grown up to enjoy them too.

Put simply I refuse to be grateful for someone doing something they believe to be morally correct in my name, especially when I disagree with them.

Ago Iterum:

Too bad you also see grammar as being 'underneath you'.

Not nice, insults, ARE THEY? And referring to my previous post, note the bloated sense of self importance and power. "people are not going to go away so I may at least tolerate them and if they get in my way I will destroy them".

My grammar is presumably poor owing to my dyslexia, still hasn't stopped me from getting an A level in English.

Yes I have a bloated sense of self importance and am possibly an egomaniac I see nothing wrong with that? why is it a bad thing our modern society positively encourages us to look out for ourselves and yet this has not hindered me in my social life gathering my own group around me as a means to entertain myself, if people are stupid enough to allow themselves to be manipulated and used by me then I see it entirely as their fault

As for insults well I have to say I don't care about them in the least as I never get offended by you people

Molikroth:

Ago Iterum:
Not even on memorial day? 1 minute of silence is all you have to give up for men and woman that gave their lives up for you.

Ignoring them is incredibly disrespectful, and shows how much you take things for granted. If people do things for you, and you couldn't care less, then... I can't even begin to explain how rude that really is.

I don't perceive fighting in a war I don't care about as doing something for me.

My dad had similar objections, Ago - "If not for those people, you would have grown up screaming 'seig heil'". My response is that, even assuming I was like my dad (i.e. disapproved of the National Socialists), I'd have grown up happy with the situation. To counter this he pointed out that Hitler disapproved of time-wasting, which meant video games if developed at all would be no-nos, and my only source of fun would have been soccer and other sports, which I despise. However, having grown up around them and participating in them I imagine I'd have grown up to enjoy them too.

Put simply I refuse to be grateful for someone doing something they believe to be morally correct in my name, especially when I disagree with them.

Are you seriously saying that you disagree with the war we fought in DEFENCE? That we should've let the Nazi's kill more and more, and you wouldn't care?

You disagree with the war that saved the lives of millions and millions more people?

Just because you don't mind that you'd've had to grow up playing sports etc. You'd say the lives of millions more Jewis people wouldn't matter, because either way, you'd be happy.

Read it back to yourself, because that's the way it comes across. And you act like you didn't ask them to, so you shouldn't thank them for saving this country, well I'm sure if you had the end of a rifle pointed in your face, you'd change that plea.

Not sure where this is going, but to address the original topic...

Jerks alienate people, even other jerks. You don't see cliques of jerks lasting too long, because they tend to be jerks to each other and the clique breaks up. Then the jerks don't even have other jerks to hang out with, and it's only other jerks that understand the "awesomeness" of being a jerk.

So then the jerk is all alone. This makes him resentful, first of his ex-friend jerks, then at the world at large for "abandoning him." This resentment then causes him to become an even bigger jerk to all the people HE now perceives as being jerks to him.

So it's a vicious cycle. It only ends when the jerk decides to stop being a jerk and opens his life to others. Because let's keep in mind, he's only a jerk in the first place as a defense mechanism - he's afraid of being hurt, and you can't be hurt if no one can get close to you. He tells himself he's just being strong and tough, but every jerk sort of knows what he's pulling. Even so, isolated and devastated as he is, a jerk may not be able to stop being a jerk. Knowing you need to stop being a jerk and actually stopping yourself from being a jerk are two very different things.

Hopefully some day soon I'll figure out how to make it work.

If that's the way it came across I did a good job.

As I've explained in several other threads, in matters like this I don't have an opinion in favour of any side. The National Socialists are as entitled to their beliefs as present-day parties. Their beliefs involved killing lots of Jews and other undesirables, the present-day beliefs America and the US run on "entitle" the government of each to lock up undesirables in tiny rooms for decades at a time.

I don't consider the actions during WWII to have any importance in my life. I don't care how many died on each side and I don't care why. As a bisexual person I've been held up as an example of an undesirable who'd have been executed - but if I were attracted to people under 16 you'd lock me in a tiny room and indoctrinate your beliefs into me - "it's wrong because it's wrong". To me each side was/is as bad as each other.

So, no, I'm not interested in keeping quiet for a minute out of respect for the people who died in that time, because I don't respect their sacrifice or consider it worth a minute of my life.

Molikroth:
If that's the way it came across I did a good job.

As I've explained in several other threads, in matters like this I don't have an opinion in favour of any side. The National Socialists are as entitled to their beliefs as present-day parties. Their beliefs involved killing lots of Jews and other undesirables, the present-day beliefs America and the US run on "entitle" the government of each to lock up undesirables in tiny rooms for decades at a time.

I don't consider the actions during WWII to have any importance in my life. I don't care how many died on each side and I don't care why. As a bisexual person I've been held up as an example of an undesirable who'd have been executed - but if I were attracted to people under 16 you'd lock me in a tiny room and indoctrinate your beliefs into me - "it's wrong because it's wrong".

So, no, I'm not interested in keeping quiet for a minute out of respect for the people who died in that time, because I don't consider their sacrifice worth a minute of my life.

I have to say I agree with you on this, why should we be expected to honour some war that has nothing to do with us in the least, in a few hundred years the events of WW2 will be as irrelevant to that generation as the Napoleonic wars are to us. And the 1 minutes silence is stupid, as I remember I sang all the way through Radio Ga Ga during that time.