Molikroth:
If that's the way it came across I did a good job.

As I've explained in several other threads, in matters like this I don't have an opinion in favour of any side. The National Socialists are as entitled to their beliefs as present-day parties. Their beliefs involved killing lots of Jews and other undesirables, the present-day beliefs America and the US run on "entitle" the government of each to lock up undesirables in tiny rooms for decades at a time.

I don't consider the actions during WWII to have any importance in my life. I don't care how many died on each side and I don't care why. As a bisexual person I've been held up as an example of an undesirable who'd have been executed - but if I were attracted to people under 16 you'd lock me in a tiny room and indoctrinate your beliefs into me - "it's wrong because it's wrong". To me each side was/is as bad as each other.

So, no, I'm not interested in keeping quiet for a minute out of respect for the people who died in that time, because I don't respect their sacrifice or consider it worth a minute of my life.

Are you now saying practicing paedophiles have a right to be so, and that protecting children from such men is a 'belief' rather than a moral necessity?

If you are (And correct me if you're not) then I say that the right to abuse comes second to the right not to be abused. That's my opinion. The abuse referring to the paedophiles, and their acts.

And Bi-Sexuality is accepted in todays society (Despite some stigma) because it's a lifestyle that harms neither party. It can hardly be compared in that sense to peadophilia. It's not wrong because it's wrong, it's wrong because these people hurt innocent children.

One thing I've always wondered about your kind of personality. What makes you happy?

george144:
I have to say I agree with you on this, why should we be expected to honour some war that has nothing to do with us in the least, in a few hundred years the events of WW2 will be as irrelevant to that generation as the Napoleonic wars are to us. And the 1 minutes silence is stupid, as I remember I sang all the way through Radio Ga Ga during that time.

That's not what I meant at all. I certainly wouldn't sing through the silence out of spite or go out of my way to offend people during it - I just wouldn't cease any other activity I happened to be doing, no matter if it was talking or not.

Molikroth:
That's not what I meant at all. I certainly wouldn't sing through the silence out of spite or go out of my way to offend people during it - I just wouldn't cease any other activity I happened to be doing, no matter if it was talking or not.

I didn't sing out of any kind of spite really as I sing to myself quite regularly anyway and so I was doing what I usually do when I get bored which is singing songs.

Then again I did quite enjoy the fact that lots of the fakers who pretend that nothing bothers or shocks them were annoyed that I didn't care about the silence that's hypocrisy for you I guess

Ago - yes, I'm saying paedophilia is a sexual attraction just like any other, and that the way paedophiles are treated now is disgusting, and it's how homosexuals were treated only a few decades ago. Hopefully at some point people will see their prejudice against paedophilia for what it is and be as ashamed of it as many are now about the prior treatment of homosexuals, transgendered people and so on.

I don't consider sex with minors to be abuse. Please note that I don't like children either as people or as objects of sexual lust, so while I'm here defending paedophiles I'm not one. Don't get angry with me under that assumption.

That said, I don't believe there's any special reason children should be "protected" from sex. Sex is no longer the commitment it was in the dark ages; it no longer consigns you to a life together, family, and tying each partner into their gender stereotype. Many people now accept it's fun with or without the intent to procreate and do it because they can.

For obvious reasons I'm not going to write to a lab and suggest this as an experiment, but my personal opinion is that if a child who was "abused" (i.e. a child exposed to sex) wasn't brought up in a society with the expectation that all "abused" children are damaged, he or she would grow up perfectly adjusted. For a literary example, look at Brave New World.

So no, I don't consider sex with children to be abuse - or rather, I wouldn't if people weren't determined to convince children it is abuse.

As for what makes me happy - a good film, movie, show, anime, game, book, manga, comic, piece of music, conversation.

Molikroth:
Ago - yes, I'm saying paedophilia is a sexual attraction just like any other, and that the way paedophiles are treated now is disgusting, and it's how homosexuals were treated only a few decades ago. Hopefully at some point people will see their prejudice against paedophilia for what it is and be as ashamed of it as many are now about the prior treatment of homosexuals, transgendered people and so on.

I don't consider sex with minors to be abuse. Please note that I don't like children either as people or as objects of sexual lust, so while I'm here defending paedophiles I'm not one. Don't get angry with me under that assumption.

That said, I don't believe there's any special reason children should be "protected" from sex. Sex is no longer the commitment it was in the dark ages; it no longer consigns you to a life together, family, and tying each partner into their gender stereotype. Many people now accept it's fun with or without the intent to procreate and do it because they can.

For obvious reasons I'm not going to write to a lab and suggest this as an experiment, but my personal opinion is that if a child who was "abused" (i.e. a child exposed to sex) wasn't brought up in a society with the expectation that all "abused" children are damaged, he or she would grow up perfectly adjusted. For a literary example, look at Brave New World.

So no, I don't consider sex with children to be abuse - or rather, I wouldn't if people weren't determined to convince children it is abuse.

As for what makes me happy - a good film, movie, show, anime, game, book, manga, comic, piece of music, conversation.

So I should be ashamed for thinking peadophilia is immoral and disgusting?

Does the innocence of a child count for nothing? They don't understand sex. And these paedophiles will coerce these children into doing something they know nothing about, forcefully if need be.

And don't even start with me on the damage it can cause. My sister was sexually abused for years, from when she was 3, up until she was 10. She is now 22, and has been living in a bulemia clinic (Or should I say, 3 seperate bulemia clinics) since she was 15, because she couldn't take what happened anymore.

15-22. The best years of someones life, when they should start going out, experiencing life, and she was stuck in hospitals. 7 suicide attempts. I've also met dozens of the girls she's in hospital with, all mentally scarred and mentally tortured by these paedophiles. Their best years taken from them.

Now to forget her past, my sister has moved hundreds of miles away and cut off all contact with everyone she ever knew. She is still in hospital, but we don't have a clue where. I've lost a sister, and a father because of this. Yeah, you do the maths.

I have first hand experience in the damage and the pain paedophilia can cause, so please do your research before you state that it should be socially accepted.

As I said earlier, sex is not a big deal. There is no inherent "innocence" that is lost when one is exposed to sex. No, children do not understand sex, but you make the mistake of assuming there is anything difficult to understand - sex is something people to for the pleasure of it and/or to produce offspring.

If your sister had been brought up in a society that wasn't so closed-minded about sex perhaps she'd be better off today. Rather than society/media constantly reinforcing the concept that what happened to her wrecked her life, wouldn't it have been better if she had been brought up considering it to have been no big deal? She'd be a lot happier.

You make the mistake of treating commonly held opinions as immutable universal truths. There is no universal constant that defines right and wrong; meaning that the archaic belief that sex is sacred is just the same as someone believing it's wrong to use the letter E on Thursdays. It's an opinion, a ridiculous one and not everyone should be forced to abide by it no matter how many people believe it.

I have also met so-called "victims" of "child abuse". I spent several months in a homeless hostel where I met girls who'd been exposed to sex at young ages (as far as I gathered, I didn't exactly note down details). Most of them were inclined to mope around and blame their experience for whatever addictions or other problems they'd picked up, but one had apparently paid attention to her shrink and decided not to let it control her life. She's happy and adjusted. Now you might go on about how deep down she's damaged permanently but of the people in the hostel she was one of the ones most likely to get somewhere in life (including me - at least she was looking for work).

Molikroth:
As I said earlier, sex is not a big deal. There is no inherent "innocence" that is lost when one is exposed to sex. No, children do not understand sex, but you make the mistake of assuming there is anything difficult to understand - sex is something people to for the pleasure of it and/or to produce offspring.

If your sister had been brought up in a society that wasn't so closed-minded about sex perhaps she'd be better off today. Rather than society/media constantly reinforcing the concept that what happened to her wrecked her life, wouldn't it have been better if she had been brought up considering it to have been no big deal? She'd be a lot happier.

You make the mistake of treating commonly held opinions as immutable universal truths. There is no universal constant that defines right and wrong; meaning that the archaic belief that sex is sacred is just the same as someone believing it's wrong to use the letter E on Thursdays. It's an opinion, a ridiculous one and not everyone should be forced to abide by it no matter how many people believe it.

I have also met so-called "victims" of "child abuse". I spent several months in a homeless hostel where I met girls who'd been exposed to sex at young ages (as far as I gathered, I didn't exactly note down details). Most of them were inclined to mope around and blame their experience for whatever addictions or other problems they'd picked up, but one had apparently paid attention to her shrink and decided not to let it control her life. She's happy and adjusted. Now you might go on about how deep down she's damaged permanently but of the people in the hostel she was one of the ones most likely to get somewhere in life (including me - at least she was looking for work).

Yeah, they could help themselves to a short degree, but it's her childhood lost. Her young childhood was spent crying because her father hurt her every night. (And I'm sorry that this sounds horrible) Because sex when you're too young hurts. She didn't know what was going on when she was so very young, all she knew was it hurt and it was wrong. It's instinct that it's wrong, when you don't like it. Are you saying these children should like it?

And then dragging all of the embarrassment up infront of her family, having to go through court to prosecute the man, watching her family lose their father. Me and my brother losing our father for reasons we could not control, because we lost his high paying salary, we lost our house. Life went haywire, and still hasn't settled.

Because it is WRONG. Having sex with someone who doesn't want you too, or doesn't understand it is WRONG full stop. And there IS something to the innocence of a child. It's a time where you play, have fun, care about nothing. To have it spoiled, to know only confusion and pain as a child absolutely demolishes any chance of a perfectly normal happy life. These things can't be locked away for ever, or treated as normal.

It's disgusting and has ruined thousands of lives. How can you say it shouldn't be condemned?

Now don't get me wrong. I think the men who admit to the doctors or whatever BEFORE they do anything that they have these urges or thoughts are amazingly brave. They're coming forward and wanting help before they can mess up lives, and I only wish the best of luck for them, and help that their urges can be put to rest by therapy.

*EDIT* And as far as 'kids only think it's wrong because the adults tell them it is', how do you think these things come to light? Chirdren (most children) aren't taught about paedophiles from an early age, they know it's wrong already.

Larenxis:

Saskwach:
It varies; I know dicks who became geeks because they weren't cool or likable, and I know geeks who can be dickish because "No one likes me!"
Whether it was the chicken or the egg, though, there's still a chicken and it's still the fowl's fault: cut the crap and work on your social skills. 'Work' was chosen deliberately: people don't like you for 'who you are inside' because they don't see your inside until you have a well-practiced outside to draw them in. That outside is all art and artifice - and no artist was ever just born.
Edit: Dear god, I've become one of those 'got it together' forum lecturers I so despise. No one listen to me: I'm too pretentious to live.

I think this just plays into what I was talking about though. Not seeing other people as good enough to understand and appreciate me for who am, so I bullshit them and attempt to control their perceptions. Without respect, friendship is just superficial.

First meetings are always about controlling perceptions. That's why they're called "first impressions". It's also why people put so much effort into preparing for interviews. Bosses won't accept the best worker - they accept the best presented worker. You don't lack respect for others simply by understanding that people have limited time and information to gain insight into you, and by being prepared to manipulate that information in a positive way until more accurate readings can be made from later meetings. Everyone does this (have you ever smiled when you didn't really want to smile just to be polite - and because a frown would have been rude and awkward? Congratulations, you've just manipulated someone's perception of you for your own ends). Some of us just accept the principle and work with it.

Just so we're on the same sheet, are you talking about emotional or physical pain? I've covered the emotional thing already, and if it's the melon through a hosepipe thing then it's no different than any other form of "child abuse".

Assuming we're talking about physical pain, because we've established any emotional problems could easily be solved by society correcting its outlook, then yes, I agree that by the usual standards sex with children is wrong. However, in cases where the child is large enough to admit a man without pain, there is no problem, no?

So, unless we're talking about physical pain/discomfort while a child is too small to have sex with comfortably, there is no problem but society's torch-and-pitchfork attitude. Take that away and a generation of children will grow up without a single one blaming "molestation" for his problems.

Therefore, I say it shouldn't be condemned because it is neither disgusting or immoral.

A question for my own curiosity, it's not anything important - my sister became pregnant at fifteen to a man of at least eighteen. However, she does not regret it, is now raising her son perfectly happily and doesn't wish to prosecute the father. Is any part of that, to you, wrong?

Molikroth:
Just so we're on the same sheet, are you talking about emotional or physical pain? I've covered the emotional thing already, and if it's the melon through a hosepipe thing then it's no different than any other form of child abuse.

Assuming we're talking about physical pain, because we've established any emotional problems could easily be solved by society correcting its outlook, then yes, I agree that by the usual standards sex with children is wrong. However, in cases where the child is large enough to admit a man without pain, there is no problem, no?

So, unless we're talking about physical pain/discomfort while a child is too small to have sex with comfortably, there is no problem but society's torch-and-pitchfork attitude. Take that away and a generation of children will grow up without a single one blaming "molestation" for his problems.

Therefore, I say it shouldn't be condemned because it is neither disgusting or immoral.

A question for my own curiosity, it's not anything important - my sister became pregnant at fifteen to a man of at least eighteen. However, she does not regret it, is now raising her son perfectly happily and doesn't wish to prosecute the father. Is any part of that, to you, wrong?

No. I think the age of consent should vary depending on how old the both parties are. 15 and 18 isn't too great a gap, and while she is still young, she obviously knew what sex was. So I hardly see that as a crime. But a middle aged man molesting a little girl, physical pain or not, is sickening.

And as for emotional pain beign easily solved by people no longer condemning paedophiles, you try living 6 years of your early childhood being raped every night, and see if YOU come out fine and dandy! It's rape!!! A child does not consent, as they don't know what sex is! How can you possibly say a middle aged man having sex with a girl of 4/5/6 years olf isn't immoral! It's absurd. Nobody enjoys rape, especially not kids.

No matter how you look at it, if sex was introduced to children at an early age and no one treated it in the medieval manner they do now, the child would not be harmed at all - as long as the person instigating it isn't rough there is no problem.

Say we take out physical pain too, as well as the emotional suffering that (in this situation) has already been removed thanks to society growing up a bit. Say an adult has a child perform oral sex on him/her, or performs it on the child. No pain, no emotional problems. Do you still have a problem?

d_mannnn:

Larenxis:
I have noticed on these forums a certain coincidence. Those who express a lack of friends, romantic partners, popularity, and other forms of social measure also seem to have little respect for their fellow man, and often deem the people they encounter as beneath them. What I'm curious about is Which came first, the disrespect or social unease? It's obviously a cycle, and it's highly possible that for each individual it varies, but I think it would be neat to see what we believe starts things spinning.

Well I'm popular and I'm still considered a disrespectful prick so :P.

No, you are slightly infamous.

What the hell guys! Godwin's Law on page 1? I keep a tight leash on my threads. Ago Iterum and Molikroth please take your argument to PMs so that this thread can remain on topic. I don't appreciate the deviation.

oddresin:
If I were to venture a few guesses, I love arguing but most people in my real life are uninterested in talking about anything deeper than grass roots.

I hear this often but it seems entirely contrary to my experience. I've noticed that everyone wants to talk about deep and meaningful pursuits, and just need the opportunity. Many people aren't able to communicate their ideas about such abstract concepts very well though, so patience is required. And that patience comes from respecting the other person, and having faith in their worth, and the worth of what they have to say.

Molikroth:
No matter how you look at it, if sex was introduced to children at an early age and no one treated it in the medieval manner they do now, the child would not be harmed at all - as long as the person instigating it isn't rough there is no problem.

Say we take out physical pain too, as well as the emotional suffering that (in this situation) has already been removed thanks to society growing up a bit. Say an adult has a child perform oral sex on him/her, or performs it on the child. No pain, no emotional problems. Do you still have a problem?

If the child thoroughly understands and wants this to happen, then I guess I can't protect them from something they don't want to be protected from, no matter what the long term affects may be. I would just wonder why an adult would want this.

But a child fully understanding and wanting this kind of thing is aone in a hundred case, and if the child doesn't want it it's wrong. Even if it's not for peadophilias sake, it's for unwanted sexual attention/rape's sake.

And the nation does not need to 'grow up'. I'm quite happy with my future children NOT having sex with older men against their will.

Did you think of that scenario? If you had a adughter, of say, 5 years old. Would you just accept it if your gardener, or mailman or something started having a sexual relationship with her, and your daughter didn't want it?

Yeah, the parents have a say in this too. And not one parent I know of (besides the paedophile fathers) want their children exposed to this, and no good, honest moral person would want to see their child go through this. Answer me honestly, would you?

Larenxis:
What the hell guys! Godwin's Law on page 1? I keep a tight leash on my threads. Ago Iterum and Molikroth please take your argument to PMs so that this thread can remain on topic. I don't appreciate the deviation.

I'm sorry man, I sort of forgot where I was for a while.

Ago Iterum:

Larenxis:
What the hell guys! Godwin's Law on page 1? I keep a tight leash on my threads. Ago Iterum and Molikroth please take your argument to PMs so that this thread can remain on topic. I don't appreciate the deviation.

I'm sorry man, I sort of forgot where I was for a while.

Same. Conversation just naturally flows from one topic to another, and I usually forget forums are one subject, one thread. I've PMed a moderator - Nilcypher, I don't know the names of any other active ones and there's no users online list - and asked him to split.

Ago, check your message inbox.

TheNecroswanson:
I have to say, you're a moron. I'm sorry, really I am. I say this not in anger, not simply due to a disagreeance with you, and not because I hate you. But you are in fact, a moron if you truly believe everything I have read.

Isn't that racism, or prejudice, or something? I'm outraged. Whatever happened to freedom of speech?

EDIT: BAD MOLIKROTH! Sorry, OP.

TheNecroswanson:

Molikroth:
No matter how you look at it, if sex was introduced to children at an early age and no one treated it in the medieval manner they do now, the child would not be harmed at all - as long as the person instigating it isn't rough there is no problem.

I have to say, you're a moron. I'm sorry, really I am. I say this not in anger, not simply due to a disagreeance with you, and not because I hate you. But you are in fact, a moron if you truly believe everything I have read.

Indeed, I would stop just short of saying you sicken me, and that's only because I don't know you as a person, and I don't like being judgemental.

Anyways, back on topic...

I wouldn't say I disrespect people; I just don't like being around people, and it's becuase I've grown used to them pestering me. What's more I don't expect to be pestered outside of certain places, because those people don't know me.

I would say that I wouldn't mind being around boorish people if they weren't boorish. Therefore, my aversion was a response to their disrespect for my feelings.

...does that anwer your question? I hope it does...

Apologes for being confusing.

Disrespect is the root of the problem, but any conflict that I'm involved in is usually partly my fault. If you respect me, then I will respect you back, and everyone is happy, but if you are an asshole, then so am I.

That is a poignant question.
I would suppose that it depends upon the environment and individual. Not unlike all aspects of the human mind, nothing is iron, and there is no unifying theory.

Good topic, Larenxis. I think you're spot-on, though there are variations. Some people seem to be natural dickheads who drive others away. Others are just thoughtless so they offend people so they become nervous so it becomes a cycle. Some are naturally withdrawn and frustrated by their lack of ability to express themselves, so it all comes out online; often it turns into passive aggression in the real world.

I know someone who is incapable of saying no or not offering to help anyone. She's not actually nice, like everyone assumes, just paranoid. She'll never ever disagree with you to your face, but in text she can be brutal. It's like a pressure valve.

I lost my respect long time ago due to the fact I trust people too much. Once I tried to help a friend and went inside a cars trunk to find something he lost in there, they locked me inside the trunk. Once I thought I was playing hide-and-seek with some of my friends, I got locked in a locker. I lost respect gradually because of people keep using my trust to hurt me.

^{Mind you I was eight or so when those things happened. I'm fourteen now, and I still have a creeping feeling on my back, like when bugs walk over it, thanks to that trunk.}

Saskwach:

First meetings are always about controlling perceptions. That's why they're called "first impressions". It's also why people put so much effort into preparing for interviews. Bosses won't accept the best worker - they accept the best presented worker. You don't lack respect for others simply by understanding that people have limited time and information to gain insight into you, and by being prepared to manipulate that information in a positive way until more accurate readings can be made from later meetings. Everyone does this (have you ever smiled when you didn't really want to smile just to be polite - and because a frown would have been rude and awkward? Congratulations, you've just manipulated someone's perception of you for your own ends). Some of us just accept the principle and work with it.

Yeah, it's like stuffing. I mean like, I'm at the clubs and I don't have time to take girls out the back and show them my huge Johnson, so I stuff to make sure the ladies know what I'm packing.

What's that officer?

...

Okay...I'll go quietly.

george144:
I still don't understand how many people can't make friends easily I mean I consider everyone underneath me and know for a fact that I'm better then every human I have so far encountered, yet I am still massively popular and have a wide range of friends that doesn't mean I actually have to like or care about them. Also why should I respect people, do you respect the insects on the ground. No you do not you simply crush them beneath your feet and that's roughly the way I feel about people there something that's just there, people are not going to go away so I may at least tolerate them and if they get in my way I will destroy them.

Y halo thar sociopath. Pleasant day, isn't it?

In other news, get help kid, while it still has a chance of working.

Some of the idiots I'm stuck with got mad at my friend for putting instructions on her dorm door, stating proper procedures for entering her room.
They entail:
Knocking,
Waiting for a response,
obeying the response.
(given, of course, that the response is contextually reasonable)
My conclusion is that my generation has lost touch with all semblance of courtesy.

My personal pet peeve is people who think that harassment isn't a big deal. I recall one person calling a husband pathetic for scolding a rude boy talking dirty to his wife on XBL. Stupid, discourteous people like that should be punished.
I also hate victim-blaming. A friend of mine left a plate of cookies for her club unattended on a table for no more than a few minutes. (she forgot something, I believe.) When she came back, a group of people were swarmed over her baked goods, then acted like she was crazy when she got mad.

*headdesk* I have to be associated with those people.