So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

Well I'm not entirely sure what you mean. It's never a right to impose beliefs or specific government systems onto other countries, but if we're just talking about democracy, then I believe every one has a right to say who they want as their leaders, so it is more a duty than a right to ensure everyone has that right. It isn't imposing a system as there are various forms that democracy could take.
So I suppose what I want to say is that it would depend on to what extent the system is being imposed. Democracy should be available to all.

galletea:
Well I'm not entirely sure what you mean. It's never a right to impose beliefs or specific government systems onto other countries, but if we're just talking about democracy, then I believe every one has a right to say who they want as their leaders, so it is more a duty than a right to ensure everyone has that right. It isn't imposing a system as there are various forms that democracy could take.
So I suppose what I want to say is that it would depend on to what extent the system is being imposed. Democracy should be available to all.

You can't impose democracy. That's the whole point.

Pseudonym2:
/quote]

You can't impose democracy. That's the whole point.

Well not immediately but you can impose a temporary government to then lead to a democracy.
The problem is when you then interfere with that government's system.

No country has the right to force anything on any other country. I don't see why people have such a hard-on for democracy. Some of the people I've met don't have the mental capacity to decide who runs the country.

The problem with democracy, is every idiot gets a vote!

Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett said that, I think.

You should let them develop their own form of government that bests suits their country. It might be the same as The United States, or it might be completely different, It doesn't matter as long as they come to that notion themselves. What works for one people might not work for another, and if they create the idea themselves they feel better following it as they were not forced to accept it.

I think it was the Jewish Russian-born anarchist Emma Goldman who said "if voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal".

Sounds a little bit like the excuses the British Empire use to come up with.

Anyway a country has to evolve its own form of government and democracy comes in many flavours, I don't particularly like the American system myself.

Excuses for what?

Milford Cubicle:
Excuses for what?

Invading half the world? "We are spreading democracy and civilization" or some crap like that.

it was the excuse for stealing land from the native Americans.

We

Reaperman Wompa:

Milford Cubicle:
Excuses for what?

Invading half the world? "We are spreading democracy and civilization" or some crap like that.

We didn't come up with excuses we were honest about the fact we just wanted to take over there countries because we had guns and they did not unlike a certain superpower nowadays who tries to justify a lot of things

george144:
We

Reaperman Wompa:

Milford Cubicle:
Excuses for what?

Invading half the world? "We are spreading democracy and civilization" or some crap like that.

We didn't come up with excuses we were honest about the fact we just wanted to take over there countries because we had guns and they did not unlike a certain superpower nowadays who tries to justify a lot of things

Which makes it all better? But yes I do agree, at least Britain didn't bother acting like they were doing you a favor.

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny.

Agreeing to this, is either saying; it is acceptable for other regimes to also be forced onto Americans or; Americans are better, and have more rights, than everyone else.

Manifest Destiny originally only refered to North America probably as justification for the violent slaughter of the natives. The term has been distorted somewhat and seems now is being used by deluded people in their attempt to forcibly indoctrinate the world.

I'm voting no.

Please note. I've visited America, I like America, I like American people very much but Manifest Destiny not so much.

Reaperman Wompa:

Milford Cubicle:
Excuses for what?

Invading half the world? "We are spreading democracy and civilization" or some crap like that.

Hell no. The British Empire wasn't to spread democracy. Hell, we didn't even have democracy at home!! The British Empire was primarily to do with trade. We'd declare countries and regions with valuable raw materials "Protectorates". While we were there we simply made them more like home.

I agree, People have to want democracy. Our founding fathers did, and with the help of the French, they fought and died to make it happen. I think its only fair to intervene if the vast majority of everyone in the country want it to happen, and even then we should only help if we have the support of the UN and our allies.

Milford Cubicle:
No country has the right to force anything on any other country. !

The British army would disagree with you there.

Milford Cubicle:
I don't see why people have such a hard-on for democracy. Some of the people I've met don't have the mental capacity to decide who runs the country.

1. Because it works far better thaan all the other ones.

2. And who are you to make that decision, god?

3. Because Britain has it, making it offically the greatest thing ever since Jesus.

Milford Cubicle:
The problem with democracy, is every idiot gets a vote!

Like you, for a start.

4. The British Empire was awesome. Sure, we killed a lot of people is the short term, but in the long run we left places better off than they had been. Example: Africa. Pre-Empire, Africa was nothing more than a bunch of people in skins running around stabbing each other. Aside from Egypt. Trust me, I live in Africa. Then came colonisalism, and the inevitable subjugation of the native populace to colonial rule. The came industrialisation, resulting in advances for the native population in terms of the standards of living. Then came racist government, resulting in a loss of what existing political freedoms there were for said native population. Then came democracy, colonial pullout, and, usually, inevitable anarchy and/or despotism.

Such is the fate of Africa.

The British Army can complain all they want. It doesn't make it any less true.

1. Works far better in what respect? Surely some sort of dictatorship gets shit done far quicker. None of that discussion nonsense.

2. No, no. God doesn't exist, but that is a separate matter altogether. Just people I've met who wouldn't know the difference between what the Labour Party are offering and what the Monster Raving Looney Party are offering.

3. Britain also has the BNP, Simon Cowell and the Royal Family. All of those things are shit.

4. I can't argue about the British Empire. That in the long run was a good thing.

I have decided not to vote in the British elections, as there is no point.

Milford Cubicle:

The problem with democracy, is every idiot gets a vote!

I agree, the US really should move towards a Starship Troopers type government without the facist/militarism overtones; where only the educated that serve the nation (doesnt have to be military.) are allowed to vote/breed. The biggest problem though is convincing Americans to get educated. Good luck with that, LOL! The last 8 years is a testament to want happens when the ignorant morons are fearmongered into voting for the warmonger.

Forcing a country to be democratic is a bit ironic isnt it?

If by fish you mean 'explosions' yes, you're spot on.

1. I'm not saying they'll complain, more along the lines that they've proven you wrong several times, by successfully imposing their will on other countries with minimal casualties.
2. Prove it.
3. Don't insult the Queen if your going to use the Union Jack. Your just asking to be flamed. But the BNP and Simon Cowel are shitness.

4. You do realise that Starship troopers was actually a satire? People do not serve their country, countries serve their people. If I have to work for the state, why do I pay taxes?

This makes me think of Bandit Keith of Yu-Gi-Oh abridged... In America!

Fondant:
1. I'm not saying they'll complain, more along the lines that they've proven you wrong several times, by successfully imposing their will on other countries with minimal casualties.
2. Prove it.
3. Don't insult the Queen if your going to use the Union Jack. Your just asking to be flamed. But the BNP and Simon Cowel are shitness.

4. You do realise that Starship troopers was actually a satire? People do not serve their country, countries serve their people. If I have to work for the state, why do I pay taxes?

1. Just because they've done it several times, it still doesn't make it right. If a rapist rapes several times, it still doesn't mean he has the right to rape people. Things don't become more right the more they're done.

2. Prove what? Prove that some people don't understand politics and shouldn't be asked to decide who runs the country?

3. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Who's using the Union Jack? I don't own a boat.

4. What the hell has Starship Troopers got to do with the price of bread?! I never mentioned Starship Troopers. I haven't even seen Starship Troopers.

Having fought a couple of wars on the issue, I'm pretty sure that the Canadian stance on this is, "no, Manifest Destiny bad, no treat."

-- Steve

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." -Winston Churchill

Benjamin Franklin 'Hawkeye' Pierce:

I just don't know why they're shooting at us. All we want to do is bring them democracy and white bread. Transplant the American dream. Freedom. Achievement. Hyperacidity. Affluence. Flatulence. Technology. Tension. The inalienable right to an early coronary sitting at your desk while plotting to stab your boss in the back.

this is pretty much how i feel

Ace of Spades:
This makes me think of Bandit Keith of Yu-Gi-Oh abridged... In America!

Screw the rules, we have oil!

Well, I'm Canadian, so Manifest Destiny is a VERY bad thing. I don't need no American gun laws.

actually manifest destiny was a big failure, it was what caused the war of 1812 and we all know how that turned out

it's a stupid idea and rather ironic in how it's contradictory to what it's trying to accomplish

Reaperman Wompa:
You should let them develop their own form of government that bests suits their country. It might be the same as The United States, or it might be completely different, It doesn't matter as long as they come to that notion themselves. What works for one people might not work for another, and if they create the idea themselves they feel better following it as they were not forced to accept it.

This. One of the reasons Afghanistan and Iraq are turning into cluster-f***s is that culturally they revolve around tribal and religious law. In order for democracy to function a certain number of things have to be accepted culturally and that's not always the case. Whatever system of government promotes the well being and happiness of the general populace is the best, not some arbitrary dedication to one particular system.

Milford Cubicle:

3. Britain also has the BNP, Simon Cowell and the Royal Family. All of those things are shit.

He insulted the Queen.
Treason! Off with his head! (no, seriously!)

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.