@Orifice: Seconded. BURN HIM! BURN HIM! SEND KILT-WEARING HIGHLANDERS AFTER HIM! TURN HIS PETS INTO GROUND MINCE AND SEND THEM TO STARVING ORPHANS!!!

@Guy with awful avatar that resembles a union jack with turd on it (Milford Cubicle)

No, prove god dosen't exist. Please.

Oh, and prove that some people can't handle government. Personally, I think that's just your middle-class bullshit, trying to scrape a little superiority over the working classes by crying 'THEY HAVE NOT THE ABILITY TO GOVERN THEMSELVES!' at the top of your lungs. If we got rid of the tabloid media and actually educated them, then they'd be fine.

Oh, and comparing the British Empire to rape is a rather pathetic argument. It's a blatant attempt to use senseless rhetoric as opposed to actually, y'know, discussing. And I'd say we have the right- Where slavery still exists, we will intervene. When our ships are pirated and our wealth stolen, we will intervene. When our interests are threatened, we will intervene.

Don't you get is? International law is a joke. Rights and so on are a joke. The only regulation on one country is a more powerful country. And since we have America on our side....

If a country can handle freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of etc...then they are able to form a democracy themselves. On the other hand, few territories and cultural beliefs outside of America and Europe can sustain this mentality.

The religion overall, is the deciding factor as to how the majority will see things.

The only country that has the right to impose anything on another country is one where it is a perfect utopian society with no problems whatsoever. America is not that country.

Well, aren't all of you perfect examples of why democracy is so great? I mean, if you lived in, say, China, and said something like, say, "Oh, the Chinese government sucks," then they would throw you in jail. But because the American system of democracy is based on the idea of rule of the majority while still protecting the minority. The system, of course, is not perfect. Nothing really is. But it's still FAR better than anything else in this world.

And I find it laughable that anyone in Europe could possibly think to criticize the US for anything we've ever done, considering the history of suffering most countries in Europe have visited on the world.

Yeeesh! Give me a nice simple dictatorship any day. Then at least when things go wrong, you know who to hang.

Besides if we were to follow any countries doctrine then theres no freaking way in hell it would be the american system.

You voted for bush! Twice! Lost any and all bragging rights after that little fiasco.

Bertinan:
Well, aren't all of you perfect examples of why democracy is so great? I mean, if you lived in, say, China, and said something like, say, "Oh, the Chinese government sucks," then they would throw you in jail. But because the American system of democracy is based on the idea of rule of the majority while still protecting the minority. The system, of course, is not perfect. Nothing really is. But it's still FAR better than anything else in this world.

And I find it laughable that anyone in Europe could possibly think to criticize the US for anything we've ever done, considering the history of suffering most countries in Europe have visited on the world.

Yes but thats the past. You learn from the mistakes of others and become better people. You don't say "well you did it 200 years ago so it's ok for us now!"

Also we didn't elect the people behind the British Empire since we weren't born. The American people have the ability to vote for who is in power, and thankfully that has been realised with the new president elect.

because this idea worked so well with the Native Americans right?.... right?

Fondant:

@Guy with awful avatar that resembles a union jack with turd on it (Milford Cubicle)

No, prove god dosen't exist. Please.

Oh, and prove that some people can't handle government. Personally, I think that's just your middle-class bullshit, trying to scrape a little superiority over the working classes by crying 'THEY HAVE NOT THE ABILITY TO GOVERN THEMSELVES!' at the top of your lungs. If we got rid of the tabloid media and actually educated them, then they'd be fine.

Afraid I can't really prove that God doesn't exist no more than you or anyone else can prove he does. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not middle-class either. I just know a fucking idiot when I see one. Regardless of this foolish notion of class that the British seem so obsessed with.

Fondant:
Oh, and comparing the British Empire to rape is a rather pathetic argument. It's a blatant attempt to use senseless rhetoric as opposed to actually, y'know, discussing. And I'd say we have the right- Where slavery still exists, we will intervene. When our ships are pirated and our wealth stolen, we will intervene. When our interests are threatened, we will intervene.

I didn't compare the British Empire to a rapist. I said on the whole, the British Empire was a good thing. What I said was, just because the British Army (but it could have been any army) had imposed their will on several countries, it still didn't make it right.

Responding to threats is a completely different matter altogether than imposing your will.

Fondant:
Don't you get is? International law is a joke. Rights and so on are a joke. The only regulation on one country is a more powerful country. And since we have America on our side....

Regardless of whether you think International Law is a joke, it doesn't mean we can just ignore it. Might doesn't make right. It's of little wonder people around the world hate America and increasingly Great Britian.

If some random country invaded Britain and took over, would you just accept it? They were clearly more powerful than Britain.

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

Amund:

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

The idea of Manifest Destiny was just a modification of The White Man's Burden expanded by the Americans to include anyone who wasn't them. Oh, sure it STARTED with North America....

sheic99:

Dragu_:

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.
[quote="Amund" post="18.78351.975285"]
You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

How do you impose free will? Or not impose on another with no free will? As far as imposing American democracy is concerned, 1) it's not a democracy and 2) you can't impose democracy. America is run under a constitutional republic with a democratic process. In other words, the constitution is the law of the land, and the trivialities underneath it are decided by a democracy i.e. everyone goes to court if they are charged, whether or not over 51% of Americans think he/she should not go to court. Of course this is without delving into how fucked up the government is right now.

Amund:

sheic99:

Dragu_:

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.
[quote="Amund" post="18.78351.975285"]
You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Ask a Native American what they think about this subject..

I don't agree with the whole premise of manifest destiny. Like the OP stated it is like teaching a man to fish rather than giving him a fish. If we can encourage other countries and show them what to do rather than trying to take over and force them to change.

sheic99:

Amund:

sheic99:

Dragu_:

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.
[quote="Amund" post="18.78351.975285"]
You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

Fondant:
But the BNP [..] are shitness.

If you mean the BNP are shits then yeah I agree.

Amund:

sheic99:

Spoiler: Click to View

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

You have to be more specific on the Catholic spread. Are you talking about the intial spread in Rome or the Crusades?

By the way, the spreading of ideals through force is not a christian idea. Every major culture in history has believed in spreading their influence on undeveloped nations.

As pertaining to Manifest Destiny, that is a specific time in American History. England has little to nothing to do with it. And for the record Manifest Destiny also included Mexico. But what I believe you think you are talking about is something called Imperialism[\i] which the US did practice for a great number of years, as with France and England. After rereading one of your comments, you seem to forget about [i]serfs and indentured servants and Africans were used as slaves mainly because if they ran it was easy to find them, and when waring tribes would capture prisoners, the prisoners were sold to slavers. It was easier for Indians and British(later Americans) to hide after running from their masters. Asians were not used because the British traded with them.

umm... the american government is a shite system. sorry but it has to be said. it is increadably corrupt and almolst impossible to get into without millions of dollars and a good family name and the right "connections"

if america ever makes a move on a contry with the claim of "manifest destiny" again then i have no sympathy when the contry is nuked to oblivian. also, the idea is identical to the muslims ideas of taking over the world, exept if anyone fights back america can just nuke them, america has the world living in fear, they are the largest terrorist organization in existance.

The moment you start to think you have more right than someone or are superior is a dangerous place to be. Manifest destiny encourages this.

galletea:

Pseudonym2:
/quote]

You can't impose democracy. That's the whole point.

Well not immediately but you can impose a temporary government to then lead to a democracy.
The problem is when you then interfere with that government's system.

Do you hate the war in Iraq? Because that's pretty much what we're doing over there. Trying to set up a government that will eventually lead to democracy on it's own.

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

Your first point is unfounded. Yeah, there are a few people who think that, but have you seen the new polls on who supports the war in Iraq?

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world.

Actually, this is inaccurate. Manifest Destiny historically was the belief that the United States of America should eventually stretch all the way across North America--it's why Jefferson funded the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Look It Up.

As for forcing our beliefs on people that don't want them, who cares? As long as they aren't bothering me, if they want to rot in squalor it's their problem.

sheic99:

Amund:

sheic99:

Spoiler: Click to View

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

You have to be more specific on the Catholic spread. Are you talking about the intial spread in Rome or the Crusades?

By the way, the spreading of ideals through force is not a christian idea. Every major culture in history has believed in spreading their influence on undeveloped nations.

As pertaining to Manifest Destiny, that is a specific time in American History. England has little to nothing to do with it. And for the record Manifest Destiny also included Mexico. But what I believe you think you are talking about is something called Imperialism[\i] which the US did practice for a great number of years, as with France and England. After rereading one of your comments, you seem to forget about [i]serfs and indentured servants and Africans were used as slaves mainly because if they ran it was easy to find them, and when waring tribes would capture prisoners, the prisoners were sold to slavers. It was easier for Indians and British(later Americans) to hide after running from their masters. Asians were not used because the British traded with them.

For the catholic spread, I'm talking more about the Crusades period.

Yes, I do realize that every major culture or group believed on imposing their own unique way of life on everyone else. I always have. It's just the most successful ones, of recent history, were the Catholics.

Ok, so Manifest Destiny is term that directly relates to the westward expansion of the European Americans... which involved a lot of brutal and bigoted acts. However the idea that God made white Catholics the best people in the world, and there for they are entitled to the world, that started in Europe... probably some time around the start of the crusades.

Dragu_:
So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

I can't say i approve the idea of Manifest Destiny based on what i learned in my history courses.

I'm not even going to read responses.

Manifest Destiny has nothing to do with Democracy persay.

Click here and educate.

No we should not go around "spreading" our Ideologies. If a Nation's people plead us for help though, Why not?

Amund:

sheic99:

Amund:

sheic99:

Spoiler: Click to View

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

You have to be more specific on the Catholic spread. Are you talking about the intial spread in Rome or the Crusades?

By the way, the spreading of ideals through force is not a christian idea. Every major culture in history has believed in spreading their influence on undeveloped nations.

As pertaining to Manifest Destiny, that is a specific time in American History. England has little to nothing to do with it. And for the record Manifest Destiny also included Mexico. But what I believe you think you are talking about is something called Imperialism which the US did practice for a great number of years, as with France and England. After rereading one of your comments, you seem to forget about serfs and indentured servants and Africans were used as slaves mainly because if they ran it was easy to find them, and when waring tribes would capture prisoners, the prisoners were sold to slavers. It was easier for Indians and British(later Americans) to hide after running from their masters. Asians were not used because the British traded with them.

For the catholic spread, I'm talking more about the Crusades period.

Yes, I do realize that every major culture or group believed on imposing their own unique way of life on everyone else. I always have. It's just the most successful ones, of recent history, were the Catholics.

Ok, so Manifest Destiny is term that directly relates to the westward expansion of the European Americans... which involved a lot of brutal and bigoted acts. However the idea that God made white Catholics the best people in the world, and there for they are entitled to the world, that started in Europe... probably some time around the start of the crusades.

Which came from the "Romans are the best, thus we conquer the world." It is also more proper to call them Christians instead of Catholics from the time period that this occurred in.

Nitpicking aside, it was not about being the best people in the world. You seem to confuse the Crusades with Hitler. The Crusades was about Christianity was the only proper religion. And that all should convert by force if necessary with a bit of other political stuff.

What angers me about this is the sheer egoism which goes into it, especially on behalf of the Christian right who believe their God sends them to earth to enforce bible-fellatio on the infidel. As Yahzee said, "Americans running in with their guns balanced on the tips of their massive erections." The same can be said for their public policy and hey look where it's landed them.

Aside from this, it is a matter of social evolution. Machiavelli wrote about the cycle of governance in his Discourses. Tribalism - Monarchy - Democracy. Each falls short in the end, and the cycle continues. Tribalism becomes civil war which is done away with when a monarch emerges. This system survives until the masses become discontent and and force it to descend into Anarchy, from which they draw out their own leaders to create a Democracy. However, the Democracy falls apart in the end when a dictator rises, and it reverts to Tribalism when he is overthrown and the smaller leaders struggle for power on their own.

On that note, Discourses is a fascinating read, though a slog and a half.

You are all wrong. Manifest Destiny is the current X-Men crossover dealing with their relocation from Westchester to San Francisco after the events of the Endangered Species/Messiah Complex/Divided We Stand trilogy. The only issues of forcing your ways on someone are Cyclops's argument with Professor Xavier over the use of telepathy to arrange people and future events as you please, Cyclops and Professor Xavier arguing the extent of Mr. Sinister's hidden influence on them both, Mr. Sinister using the Cronus machine to hijack Professor Xavier's body for Sinister's rebirth, and the damn Skrulls invading Earth.

I'm all for a good mind-fuck, and any idiot knows not to trust Sinister. But the biggest issue here is the Skrulls - I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to live under a Skrull banner! The Skrulls' belief that Earth is "religiously and rightfully theirs" (Wikipedia - Secret Invasion) is a classic example of another religious cult viewing the Earth as their prize, and trying to enslave or murder anyone who would oppose them. I don't care if the Annihilation Wave destroyed their empire, it's not my problem! Go invade someone else's solar system, you green bastards! How about the Shi'ar - after what the Shi'ar did to the Greys, they totally deserve it.

Fondant:

Milford Cubicle:
No country has the right to force anything on any other country. !

The British army would disagree with you there.

Milford Cubicle:
I don't see why people have such a hard-on for democracy. Some of the people I've met don't have the mental capacity to decide who runs the country.

1. Because it works far better thaan all the other ones.

2. And who are you to make that decision, god?

3. Because Britain has it, making it offically the greatest thing ever since Jesus.

Milford Cubicle:
The problem with democracy, is every idiot gets a vote!

Like you, for a start.

4. The British Empire was awesome. Sure, we killed a lot of people is the short term, but in the long run we left places better off than they had been. Example: Africa. Pre-Empire, Africa was nothing more than a bunch of people in skins running around stabbing each other. Aside from Egypt. Trust me, I live in Africa. Then came colonisalism, and the inevitable subjugation of the native populace to colonial rule. The came industrialisation, resulting in advances for the native population in terms of the standards of living. Then came racist government, resulting in a loss of what existing political freedoms there were for said native population. Then came democracy, colonial pullout, and, usually, inevitable anarchy and/or despotism.

Such is the fate of Africa.

Are you out of your mind! Your starting to sound like someone who supports Manifest, the Empire walks in and takes over stripping Africa of its resources and exports slaves for cash then says "Fuck it" and leaves these unstable countries to lapse into civil war and anarchy. Child soldiers, Mass rape, the AIDS epidemic oh ya things were WORSE before the Brits came in thats for sure.

Manifest Destiny?

Anywhere else, it's called Americanisation.

Anyway, I'm stuck in the middle, as I don't want American culture on our doorstep (like we have a choice), but you make some awesome movies. And other awesome stuff, such as Star Wars and Valve.

Lord Krunk:
Manifest Destiny?

Anywhere else, it's called Americanisation.

Anyway, I'm stuck in the middle, as I don't want American culture on our doorstep (like we have a choice), but you make some awesome movies. And other awesome stuff, such as Star Wars and Valve.

Yeah, people bitch about how much they hate America, it's values/way of life, and all that, but then I read articles about how domestic films in foreign countries can't compete with Spider-Man and how people have "shopping friends" to get them American stuff that sells out/is overpriced in their country, and how the American version is better because of different censorship laws, and so much more. People love to hate the country/government/institution, but sure love the benefits. But to be fair, most people seem to treat Americans as individuals provided they don't live up to the stereotypes, so I'm not angry, just confused.

fat american:

Do you hate the war in Iraq? Because that's pretty much what we're doing over there. Trying to set up a government that will eventually lead to democracy on it's own.

No I don't, actually. I hate the fact that it is necessary to interfere, but Hussein's regime wasn't going to end on it's own. I'm a bit uncerain on the motives, but I'm not anti the result.

@ Milford Cubicle- Meh. You insulted the Queen. Epic fail.

And you failed to note that anyone who tried to invade GB would find their own nation to be, in my own words: "Clicking hot and shrouded in this mysterious green glow". And then the SAS would kill them.

And if people hate us- So what? We're a rich, powerful nation that relies on brains to run it's economy, and brains to run it's military. No-ones going to fuck with us, because we'll send David Striling's band of merry psychotics around to kill them. And then send MI6 to blow up their houses. And then send the army in to occupy their country, change their government and leave them better off for it.

@Lost in the void: Your logic is so riddenwith flaws, failures of deduction and simple foolishness thatit painsme. Nonethless, I will attempt to postulate my points politely, and civilly. Please do the same:

-Empire takes over- With the collusion of sections of the local populace, you may note.

-Exports slaves: With collusion of the same local population, you may note. The slave trade relied on Africans being as willing to sell slaves as Europeans were willing to buy them. Also,it was the British Empire that ended the international slave trade. Once again, you have lost.

-Rapes for natural resources- Thus providing the nation with the mines to extract said resources, thus cultivating their land in a far more efficent manner, thus establishing a proper economic base rather than a system of peasantry, patronage and chiefenism.

-Leaves countrys unstable: You fail to note that we left at the request of the said local populace, who were certain they could manage things by themselves. You also fail to note that we left India much earlier than we did the African colonies, and somehow, that is now a burgeoning economic superpower.

-Civil war- One can only have civil war when one has a nation, which did not exist pre-colonially. Secondly, the local tribes always fought each other. That is whay colonising them wasso laughably easy. Oh, and guns.

Mass rape- Again, a prexisting phenomenon. One simply has to look at the history of the Zulu and Matabele (descendants of the zulu) nation. Massed rape, kidnapping, mass slaughter of noncombatants (children in particular) and generic barbarities.

AIDS epidemic: Since AIDS only emerged in the late 1970s, blaming it on the British Empire is act of monumental, collossal stupidity that I will not even countenance replying to. Please obey the rule of "Think before you post".

Once again, I win.