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On the Record  Posts: 5145 Joined: 3 Mar 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1428 Joined: 7 May 2008     | I'm not quite sure if I've ever made this statement on this forum before, but it seems appropriate whether or not you've heard it before: The day Lucas announces Episode 7 is the day I'm going to firebomb Skywalker Ranch. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008     |
The only way Lucas could make Episode 7 is to make the movies even WORSE by making them based on the books. can you imagine trying to cram "The courtship of Princess leah" into a movie? Though I think Truce at Bakara MAY work as a book if Lucas had no way to get into the creative process. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 365 Joined: 10 Jan 2008     | you know what I've always wanted to see? An internet wide contest: "Write a better prequel trilogy" winner replaces the movies in fan cannon. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 742 Joined: 2 Nov 2008    | Return of the Jedi forever. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 982 Joined: 20 Oct 2008    | I don't really hate the prequels, I was just disappointed with them. My main complaint is CGI, but second is I wish they would drop the Jedi crap already; They're really overdoing it. Too much of a good thing spoils said good thing. I would like to see a star wars game/film come out where the main characters aren't all Uber-Jedi. Though really, I'd rather see them let the series die and bring it back only when George Lucas is safely in his grave. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008    |
Now you see you've started badly there. What you mean is, in your opinion the Prequel Trilogy is very good. In almost everyone else's it isn't.
You know what, here: Obi Wan "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." What? Only, ever? Opening to Ep 3 "WAR!" Huh? What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Play it again. Obi Wan "I have the high ground you can't possible win!" What, like when Darth Maul had you down? Obi Wan & Padme "Younglings" The fact that word made it into a final script is unbelievable. Possible the worst writing for a major franchise that I can remember - Jar Jar Binks and the Stereotypes. That actually sounds like a sweet band, although I don't listen to that much Reggae. "Darth Plagueis the Wise" Oh nice guy was he? I get that the can't be called Darth Jeff but putting the word 'Plague' in a character name makes you wonder just how stupid Anakin must be. The general logic that a character can go from rolling in a green field with his beloved, getting married to MURDERING CHILDREN within the space of a few weeks. Just no. The originals are not peerless examples of flawless film making but they're actually reasonably sane and enjoyable. The prequels are a mess of toy adverts and bad scripting. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008 | you know on the topic of younglings, Yoda did say it once I think, and with him it fits. I mean come on hes got like twelve other speech impediments You have to think "Ok a race of shriveled up green things that live in swamps and act like crazy hermits when you try to talk with them... in essence an entire race of "wise old man" monomyth filler, can call kids younglings and get away with it. Then some idiot writer starts calling all children younglings because he thinks it will make the starwars universe seem 'more different' from our own. Yeah, its amazing how they messed that up. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1429 Joined: 19 Jun 2008    | We're all aware that george lucas writes star wars for 8 - 12 year old boys, not grown adults, right? Wonder what adults thought taking their kids to see the OT? To quote my dad "Well, it was incredibly childish, but spaceships, laser battles and rescuing the princess is what entertainment for young boys is all about, isn't it?" [Edit] Just to show off my nerd credentials a little.. Yoda's race didn't live on the swamp planet dagobah, TerraMGP. Yoda went there to stay hidden from vader and the empire. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 772 Joined: 25 Jun 2008 |
I know he didn't live on Dagobah, but someone in my memory mentioned he was from some other swam world, and I am far more willing to take the semi-canon of even minor authors I don't remember over Lucas any day. Besides my point got across. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
I thought the reason the original Star Wars was so successful was because it was a family action film like Indiana Jones that didn't talk down to kids and provided enough actually plotting and action to entertain the adults too. The Prequel Trilogy seemingly managed the stunning act of having it speak down to kids but sound pretentious doing it. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 858 Joined: 2 Apr 2008   | I don't recall who pointed it out, but the entire New Trilogy is a load of bullshit from the first two minutes. Why? Lightsabre Battles. Consider the fights of the older films. Their weapons feel heavy! What's more, they are dangerous weapons! In a sword-lock with a Katana or Broadsword, I could grip the flat of the blade to shunt off my foe. With a Lightsabre, I'm fucked if I touch it. It would actually be a very difficult weapon to use, and Lucas' own directing stated this weapon is meant to be heavy, as if they were using a Katana or warsword. Enter the new Trilogy. We've got people doing triple backflips and twirling the fucking Lightsabres like pom-poms! What the shit? They flick those god-damned things around like they way as much as a pencil! All the 'skill' and 'ritual' of Lightsabre combat that was so clearly present in the Old Trilogy has been replaced by "swing as crazily as you can!" in the New Trilogy. Then there's the Force. Master Yoda, most bad-ass Force User of all time, lifts an X-Wing out of a swamp. Darth Sidious, theoretically the second most bad-ass Force User of all time, just zaps people with Lightning. Darth Vader, third most bad-ass Force User of all time, chokes people and hurls a boiler or two around. From what I've heard about The Force Unleashed, Vader's new Apprentice frags Star Destroyers with his mighty Force Powers. Star Destroyers!? Even just going by the films, the Force in the New Trilogy is much less about 'spiritual energy' and more about 'look! I can tear up a whole building with TEH MIND!!!' Then there's the whole 'The Force means you don't pass out when on a planet that would be at least 400 degrees surface temp, and have about 1% oxygen in the mostly-sulphur air.' |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1429 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 |
*shrug* No idea. George has said that he wrote star wars to entertain young boys.
Can't say I noticed that. I mean, sure the dialogue was vaguely condescending to anyone with an iq over 50 and a body temperature somewhere in the mid 30s, but I figured the studio had just given georgie back his crack pipe and let him go nuts with the typewriter again. Thinking back on it though, I'm pretty sure that every show aimed at kids during the 70s and 80s talked down to them. It's not like adults considered children to be on an equal or higher footing than they were back in then. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Not that George Lucas wrote more than the first one of the original trilogy. Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplay for Empire and Kasdan wrote it for Jedi. Lucas only directed the first one of the originals too. Now correct me if I'm wrong but Ep 5 & 6 are normally preferred to 4 (not that its bad, just not AS good). All three of the prequels are Lucas written and Lucas directed. Let us not forget his original desire to call the character Luke Starkiller. So I think we can safely say that the creation of the magic of Star Wars Lucas does not take permanent centre stage. Also if you re-watch Indy (my god, not including IV) and Star Wars Ep 4-6 then the stories are simple but fun. They don't try and shoehorn in dramatic character changes without having the acting talent to back them up. They are great family adventure films, I will share them with my kids in the future (ie if I have any!), the can watch the prequels if they want but I'm certainly not buying them on DVD (or Blu Ray or holodisc or whatever). |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1429 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 | Perhaps I should have used the word "created" instead of writtten? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy star wars. I've even been known to sling my dice at an SWd20 game from time to time. I do think that people have gotten far to "into" it though. SW really is supposed to spark the imagination of kids and lightly entertain adults. I think that the Indy series is a little different, as the primary audience is the family, not the child. Steven spielberg had a lot of involvement too, which gave it an edge over star wars in quality stakes. I totally agree with you that IV is an abberation in the Indy series. Someone must have switched the old folks' meds when they were napping between takes. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3147 Joined: 12 Nov 2008     |
Ever seen the dude in anything else? He's not a bad actor. The problem is they were given the most retarded script, one that should warrant a disable sticker on George Lucas' car. Padame: "You're just in love" Anakin: "No. It's because I'm so in love with you!" Add to that the fact they couldn't really method act properly with this movie. Actors have to get themself in the role to be convincing. Actually imagine themselves as the character. They can't really do this when all they have around them is some very large lime green boxes, upon which CGI scenery would be added later. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Even if Lucas crafted all 6 (and that CGI monstrosity) he crafted the original 3 as a better whole story. Kids really respond to something where you actually root for the heroes, something that doesn't really happen in the prequels. They tried to make a complex plot (character transformation over 8 hours) for the adults and comedy robots for the kidies. I actually think Ep 1 is the best of the prequels because its a heroic story of Anakin, Padame and Obi Wan. I'll accept the original series is brilliant crafted kids entertainment but I won't accept the prequels are well crafted anythings (except ILM tech demos). |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 387 Joined: 12 Jul 2008  | Stop it. The prequel trilogy isn't good. If it was, you wouldn't need to defend it. One bad argument I hear often is that it's supposed to be a kids movie. Is that supposed to be the defense? A kid will see a traffic light and think it's an epic masterpiece, they are stupid, you can't trust their opinions. Also it's a cop out argument. So if I don't like it, it's because I'm too old? Wrong. I saw The Wizard of Oz when I was 19, and I thought it was awesome, because it is, it's imaginative and wonderfully bizarre. That was a kids movie, but if a movie is great, it transcends age limits. Like the original trilogy, which works for me even now. Those were good movies, the new ones are horrible.
It's usually ranked 5, 4 then 6. I got 4 and 5 pretty much tied, 4 is consistently great but 5 has those few spectacular scenes that shoots it to the top. Anyway, consider yourself corrected. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Meh, the point stands that Lucas is certainly not responsible for all of Star Wars. I'd put a good deal of money that someone had a hand in refining his script titled "The Adventures of the Starkiller"! But, totally agree with you in the "its for kids" argument. I didn't see the originals as a cohesive trilogy until I was comfortably into my teens. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1429 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 | I don't really see how you can dispute the "it's made for kids" thing when George Lucas himself has said that's who he created star wars for. He even said it again during press releases for ep 1 and 2. It doesn't matter if you find some kind of existential meaning in it once you're an adult. Simple fact is that the star wars movies are kids movies. Sure, they're great, even with the comedy robots and jar jar. The Incredibles, Shrek and Toy Story movies are made for kids too, but there's plenty of stuff in there for adults to enjoy too. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 858 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 | The reason the Old Trilogy is a "family film" and not a "kids film" is that it doesn't do stupid. Take Darth Vader. The Kids see Darth Vader as a "cool baddie". The Adults who watch the entire OT can appreciate how deep a character he is. He presents this uber-evil front, but inside he has real feelings. Clearly, he cares for Luke to some degree, trying (in his own rather twisted way) to befriend him during Empire. In Jedi, his emotional development has gone notably further, cumulating in his assassination of the Emperor. The kids don't see that. They can't appreciate that. Adults can. The point is that we can either see Vader through Adult eyes, or Child eyes, but neither way is wrong! Kids don't sit around feeling bored and confused because they don't understand, and Adults aren't left suffering through something as sad and pathetic as The Pyjama People Sing About Pillows. That's why the OT are Family Films - they appeal to the entire family. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3147 Joined: 12 Nov 2008 |
Clone War movies?! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1780 Joined: 29 May 2008 |
No no... i mean based on the time of the clone wars. You know, know as the 'Good bit of Episode 2' and the 'Good bits of Episode 3' |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1848 Joined: 13 Oct 2008   | one word Midi-Chlorians one name Jar-Jar-Binks that said i enjoyed episodes 2 and 3, episode 1 was WAY to "kiddie" with those stupid droids. and the whold added commedic elements stunk real bad. but the action at the end of epp... 2? (the one with all the Jedi?) made up for it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1429 Joined: 19 Jun 2008 |
Lord Farquad. Amusing shrimp king to children, amusingly named for adults. How many jokes from the shrek movies are really only understood by adults? Not everything made for kids is stupid. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
The difference is that Shrek pitches two different balls at the same time. The bright silly story for the kids and the knowing little jokes to the adults. The beauty of the Star Wars Ep 4-6 and Indy 1-3 its a single ball that can be enjoyed by both adults and kids. There's very few bits in either that a kid wouldn't understand. You look at Ep 3 and kids are not going to understand why Anakin betrays everything he loves to er, wait, I didn't understand that either. I don't know why I used balls as the analogy there. Maybe I've been looking at my trousers too much this morning. |
Paperboy Posts: 12 Joined: 12 Sep 2008    |
If you look at sections of dialogue as a whole rather than individual sentences without context, then the sentences tend to make more sense. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
No it doesn't! The Jedi deal in absolutes all the time and this accidentally makes light of it hilariously. "The sith must be destroyed!" "We must restore balance to the force!" "Only a Sith deals in absolutes.". |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1113 Joined: 19 May 2008  | My main problem with Lucas is that he seems to hire completely incompetent people for casting his movies. The kid in Phantom Menace is a kid, movie kids are always annoying. Not such a big deal. Hayden Christensen isn't a bad actor all the time, but he comes off as comical when he's trying to act angry. Like a child. Natalie Portman is bland. The worst offence is definitly Samuel Jackson. No, just NO. That man was never meant to play a extremely calm and rational person. It's so painful to watch. Seriously, the only cast they got right from the start and stuck with was Ian McDiarmid. And even he has some ugly moments in the prequels, although I think he really lifts them at times as well. The opera(?) scene in part III still gives me chills when I watch it. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 858 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 |
If I were to try and defend Obi-Wan on this, I would argue two points; Firstly, "Balance" is not an absolute. It is an absence of absolutes. One could argue the Jedi are in fact "Lawful Good" to the Sith's "Chaotic Evil", but let's imagine that Obi Wan actually believes in the True-Neutral goal he voices; the Sith must be destroyed because they will not seek balance. In theory, if the Sith just showed up and said "Hey! We just want to hang here, chill out, compare Force Powers and generally not try and take over the universe," then in theory the Jedi would be cool with that. However, because the Sith take an absolute position, they must be removed for the sake of balance. The second point is that Obi Wan, when reciting this speech, is under just a little bit of pressure. He's trying to 'talk round' his former pupil, who is also his only friend, the man his Master died to rescue and the supposed Chosen One (making him the Jedi version of Jesus). He also goes around slaughtering little kiddies, so it's understandable Qui Gon's just a little muzzy in the head right when he makes this "Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes!" statement. If George Lucas was looking for realism, maybe he'd have gone with "Anakin, what the fuck? I know it's hard, but just tell Master Yoda where exactly the Sith Lord touched you and we can start to make it all better..." |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Why try? Its much more fun to point and laugh. I see your point but they never really resolved the whole "Jedis are a force for good" vs "Jedis seek balance and harmony". They seem to veer between the two somewhat randomly. I would have thought: "Dude, Annie, you just slaughtered a bunch of children to save your wife's life? Where's that start getting sane? Then you strangled her!" |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3147 Joined: 12 Nov 2008 |
Star Wars had excellent actors, but some bad acting. The problem is the way the thing was filmed (in front of big green boxes so CGI underlay could be applied) that stunted the actors performances. How easy is it to pretend you are on board a space ship when all you have to go on is giant limes? The other problem was the most retarded dialogue ever in a film. "Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo." "No, it's because I'm so in love with you!" "It's over, I have the high ground!" "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!", "noooo", "No, Nooo, Nooooooo", "Nooooooooo!!!!!!", "NO!" There is no way to competantly say those lines while surrounded by giant lime green boxes. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1766 Joined: 2 Jul 2008  |
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Gone Gonzo Posts: 2615 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
The irony of his painting demonstrating a lack of perspective is brilliant. |
BANNED  Posts: 3486 Joined: 25 Aug 2008   |
Damn straight! have you ever heard him say Ezekiel 25:17 in real life, then shoot someone? Neither have I... I liked the prequel trilogy, mainly because I'm young enough to have only seen the new ones on DVD (I missed 2, but I saw 3 at the cinema) I kinda liked them, and I liked the older ones, but I can understand that "loss of magic" that others talk about. User was banned for: The Second Annual Escapist Election: Part 1: Presidential Primaries. (Permanent) |
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I liked Episode 1, but then they killed of Qui Gon Jinn. I loved that guy, because he was Ben Kenobi minus the Ben and the Kenobi.
While the other two were okay, they never matched up to the originals. They crushed the spirit of the originals entirely!