I believe as a whole, that if certain individuals within certain groups are still undergoing harsh treatment as a result of our policies, then they ARE entitled to a fair amount of reprieve. On the other hand, if the said groups are merely using the so called notion as a method to gain an advantage they do not deserve, then by all means, it is a notion to be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall I can see both sides of every argument, but I also believe that is a culture's responsibility to ensure that their people hold their heads up high over expecting to be handed everything on the mere basis of their heritage alone.

I am sorry, but on a true level, murder is not a free payroll.
I say this for both Europe and America. Certain people can accept the fact that European culture brought them greater culture, greater goods, and greater aspects overall.

*waits for an ignorant person to claim racism because he just skimmed the surface of this and was taught by his teacher's what racism means*

Seriously. The last part is a joke, yet is serious within the same honest regards.

My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

Well I'm African American (No not for blacks and slavory) I beleive that Romans/Eygptians(germans allready did) should apolligize for there treatment towards the jewish culture for 2000 Years of Slavory I mean We only did 200 they had 2000 I couldn't really imagin that plus the Hollicost I think the Jews have it the Shittiest out of all the races (Don't even try to correct me Jewish is a race and a Religon as well) thats for bringen this up most African Americans Like myself blame white people for slavoring us but jews don't blame anyone there taugh to Advance and get a Degree as a doctor or lawyer and thats why I think jews deserve an Apollogy (P.S was that racist?)

oh man, i'm totally not touching this one

this one is WAY too hot

look, a lot of colonisations happened in a time where the english thought they were by far more brilliant than everyone else. they based a lot of assumptions on a lot of stupid truthes. these days we have diplomats and processes, we can arrange fair trades for things. I'm totally not sure that our lack of diplomatic ability in the past is licence for reembersment now

A) You should have made a poll.
B) I think formal apologies are due, but not forms of monetary gifts or whatever you will call it, as their relatives may have deserved some form of apology in the form of money or items, someone related to them doesn't. How does it help the person who suffered if their kids don't have to work for a living?
C) If discussing people currently undergoing "harsh treatment", or suffering the effects of such, such as injuries that make work difficult etc. then some form of reprieve is due, but only if they are actually suffering, not if they just think they were treated in an unfriendly manner.

jim_doki:
oh man, i'm totally not touching this one

this one is WAY too hot

look, a lot of colonisations happened in a time where the english thought they were by far more brilliant than everyone else. they based a lot of assumptions on a lot of stupid truthes. these days we have diplomats and processes, we can arrange fair trades for things. I'm totally not sure that our lack of diplomatic ability in the past is licence for reembersment now

........

Africa.
India.
Australia.

I think the English were right.
And I am 12.2% Cherokee.

You can always come back as another name....
*wink wink knudge knudge*

I'm of the view that affirmative action is racist, sexist, what have you. It's discrimination. I don't care what happened to your ancestors, if it didn't happen to you, you have no right to compensation. It's not equality to treat members of a certain group as though they are disadvantaged based solely on what happened to their forebears. I'm adamantly opposed to giving preferential treatment to any group. If you want to solve inequality, help the poor people regardless of race.

And I stand by this, and will no matter how much bile gets thrown at me.

Yeah, I think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

EDIT: Nah, you know we love you guys.

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

Oh god, no! People deserve equal legal and social rights; that is the only acceptable reprieve for oppression. People do not deserve to be paid for being oppressed unless their money was stolen or something of value was destroyed and should fairly be replaced. And people *definitely* shouldn't be compensated for suffering they did not endure themselves.

For Eurocentrism!

*raises his goblet*

Arsen:

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

What did you try to give them?

Arsen:

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

You don't realise what you're saying, do you?

Communism is about everyone having everything, but equally. And we were the bad guys of the war. And the ones that lost.

Arcticflame:

Arsen:

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

What did you try to give them?

Agent Orange.

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I totally agree with this, if you didn't lve with it, then shut up you don't understand what it was like. Example: The vicious oppression of the Scots by the english. Until this post i have never bothered mentioning because I didn't live through it.

I do however fully bitch about how I'm getting screwed over because england thinks scotland doesn't deserve independance, because I'm currently living through it.

If there are no survivors of the event then no apologies (and sure as hell no memorials every years coz am getting REALLY tired of them) need to be made. Ever.

I can see this going so wrong so very quickly.

For the record, I would be very much against reparations if only because the process of determining who gets what from whom would be massively impractical.

With that, I will leave this thread to burn in the inevitable ensuing flame war.

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

True dat. As a white man, I'm getting sick of being blamed for things I never did. I'm not saying this stuff didn't happen, but if it didn't happen to YOU, then shut up. I don't owe you anything. I mean, I try to be a nice guy... *sniff*

What, you gonna blame all Germans for Hitler?

Hell no! That is a major problem is New Zealand. We have alot of maoris bitching about harsh treatment and just wanting to be equal yet they are given land, govt grants, more job opportunities and a whole bunch of other privileges that noone else gets. Even if you only have 16th maori you still get all these extra benefits.
Seriously pisses me off.
Conquered races need to stfu and just be happy their species was allowed to live. Especially when they only got that land by killing off another race.
Anyway on a less hate filled tone, if you yourself have not been enslaved or subjected to real racism then you need to shut up and stop playing the race card otherwise you just make me believe that ethnic cleansing truly is the way to go.

*edit* to 101194: Why should egyptians/romans have to apologise to jews ?
You cannot seriously think that the same people who did enslave them are still alive.
The current generation have done nothing wrong and I personally hate all the jews who still whine about shit that happened thousands of years ago.
For those very few Jews who have actually gotten over it and stopped using old excuses then you are the only ones who dont deserve a trip to the "shower rooms"

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I can tell you're not Australian then. Over here, the words 'Stolen Generation' haven't ceased to appear everywhere, even our tests.

And for everyone else, you should look at my edit. I wasn't exactly being serious, but I still think that the Brits were being complete douches in regards to us in WW1 and 2. No offense aimed at anyone, as Khell has said, it didn't happen to me or my grandparents. Well, the latter did, but Curtin took care of that.

By the way Khell, if that is the way you believe (considering my guess that you're American, by the Uncle Sam avatar), then what is your opinion of Thanksgiving?

If it didn't happen in their lifetime and to them they don't deserve to be treated different from anyone else. But then again, I'm still waiting for White Entertainment Television to exist even though I know it won't happen in my lifetime (unless my diabolical plan to take over the world comes to fruition mwahaha).

Lord Krunk:

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I can tell you're not Australian then. Over here, the words 'Stolen Generation' haven't ceased to appear everywhere, even our tests.

Why does that tell you he's not Australian? I'm Australian and I agree with every word of that.

It's not just race, nationality, and religion. It's also gender, sexuality, and so many other things. Not going into detail here, you can derail this thread for yourself. :)

The French government needs to - scratch that - must apologise to New Zealand for Rainbow Warrior, and imprison the agents sent to commit a murder. Apparently, just because we're a small nation means we can get shat on by whoever deems us unworthy of respect.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Greenpeace's role in the whole thing. Yeah, they got compensated by the French government, but no formal apology? Way to go.

Graustein:

Lord Krunk:

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I can tell you're not Australian then. Over here, the words 'Stolen Generation' haven't ceased to appear everywhere, even our tests.

Why does that tell you he's not Australian? I'm Australian and I agree with every word of that.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying my own thoughts. Nonetheless, why don't you care about the Stolen Generation? It's a big issue, you know, and we certainly shouldn't ignore it.
Just like the American Indians and the Colonial Guys, you can't ignore that Thanksgiving was based on a big feast hosted by a tribe that was slaughtered a year afterwards.

Learn from the past but don't become a victim to it. grudges are one of the main reasons we have so many problems these days. I think that we should follow Jesus' advice and try to forgive things whenever we can. That doesn't mean you should let yourself be walked on but the past is the past and all we can do is learn from it to reach equality not make up for it.

Lord Krunk:

Graustein:

Lord Krunk:

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I can tell you're not Australian then. Over here, the words 'Stolen Generation' haven't ceased to appear everywhere, even our tests.

Why does that tell you he's not Australian? I'm Australian and I agree with every word of that.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying my own thoughts. Nonetheless, why don't you care about the Stolen Generation? It's a big issue, you know, and we certainly shouldn't ignore it.
Just like the American Indians and the Colonial Guys, you can't ignore that Thanksgiving was based on a big feast hosted by a tribe that was slaughtered a year afterwards.

I never said I didn't care about the Stolen Generation or that we should ignore it. My beef comes primarily when they make it easier for someone to get into uni, get a job based or recieve social security solely on their race, beliefs or gender. University entry should be always based on merit, not any of those things. Similarly, if we want to help stop poverty we should aid those in poverty-stricken areas. The fact that many Aborigines are in said areas means that we'll be helping Aborigines while at the same time helping anybody else in similarly unfortunate circumstances, whereas the middle-class kid who happens to be Aboriginal will recieve no preferential treatment.

It's a political issue. The decider of right/wrong on these issues is a simple matter of numbers. How many votes is it worth? How much will it cost? Is it cheaper to simply demonise these minorities through right-wing media and win the ignorant vote instead?

Graustein:

Lord Krunk:

Graustein:

Lord Krunk:

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I can tell you're not Australian then. Over here, the words 'Stolen Generation' haven't ceased to appear everywhere, even our tests.

Why does that tell you he's not Australian? I'm Australian and I agree with every word of that.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying my own thoughts. Nonetheless, why don't you care about the Stolen Generation? It's a big issue, you know, and we certainly shouldn't ignore it.
Just like the American Indians and the Colonial Guys, you can't ignore that Thanksgiving was based on a big feast hosted by a tribe that was slaughtered a year afterwards.

I never said I didn't care about the Stolen Generation or that we should ignore it. My beef comes primarily when they make it easier for someone to get into uni, get a job based or recieve social security solely on their race, beliefs or gender. University entry should be always based on merit, not any of those things. Similarly, if we want to help stop poverty we should aid those in poverty-stricken areas. The fact that many Aborigines are in said areas means that we'll be helping Aborigines while at the same time helping anybody else in similarly unfortunate circumstances, whereas the middle-class kid who happens to be Aboriginal will recieve no preferential treatment.

You make some good points, and while my belief still stands, bumping up their UAI was the height of stupidity. I agree with you there, entirely.

Lord Krunk:
By the way Khell, if that is the way you believe (considering my guess that you're American, by the Uncle Sam avatar), then what is your opinion of Thanksgiving?

Actually, Canadian. The picture to the right is the full-size of my avatar, who I call Uncle Buck, or Buck Cannuck. As to thanksgiving, I think it's a bullshit holiday like most of the ones we have, but I get to eat turkey at my aunt's house, so I'm not complaining.

Khell_Sennet:

Lord Krunk:
By the way Khell, if that is the way you believe (considering my guess that you're American, by the Uncle Sam avatar), then what is your opinion of Thanksgiving?

Actually, Canadian. The picture to the right is the full-size of my avatar, who I call Uncle Buck, or Buck Cannuck. As to thanksgiving, I think it's a bullshit holiday like most of the ones we have, but I get to eat turkey at my aunt's house, so I'm not complaining.

Go figure. Sorry about that, then.

Arcticflame:

Arsen:

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

What did you try to give them?

Bullets?

If they want an apology then fine words are cheap. It's like Kevin Rudd apologising to the forgotten generation, sure he apologised but it didn't change anything.

No, the current generations do not owe each other anything based on what went on a few generations to a few hundred years ago. Either forgive and move on, or exterminate one side quickly and efficiently. Playing the guilt-and-repayment game only adds a few hundred extra years of general misery.

This is kinda hard to say for me. My great grandparents were japanese americans living in the states during the WWII, and they were put into the internment camps. My grandfather and his brother actually managed to avoid this for the most part by writing letters to the government and asking if there was a place they could go to finish their education (they were sent to a small quaker college). Anyhow, my grandfather did get reperations (sp?) years later, though he just donated to the college that took him in.

It hits pretty close to home for me. But I'm not going to demand the government give me money for it, and neither is my mom. If my great grandparents and whoever else were sent to the camps were still alive and wanted to, I don't suppose I'd disagree. Though at this point, it would seem kind of moot.