ok well i live in australia, and the even slightly educated people would know that in 1788 Captain Arthur Phillip didnt just ask the natives to come on to their land, it was more... um... brutal force. well for generations aborginial children where taken from their families in what we thought we were doing was good, and we accept that many years ago our grandparents and maybe our grandparents parents did some thing wrong.in fact we gave them a whole freaking day saying sorry

every time we take one of "their people" to court, they end up doing a bloody river dance at 6 o clock down the streets of the city. so i think weve payed out debt to the aborginials, and i will kill the next one to bring up how we treated them badly nearly 100 years ago

There is no point in walking forwards whilst looking over your shoulder, you just fall down a set of stairs and sue!

This whole notion of people being liable for the actions of the past is stupid, where will it end? I demand an apology from the Zulu Nation for Rourkes Drift, I demand compensation from the Irish for blowing up my city hang on no wait they were catholics..... So the Vatican. This whole thing was perfectly encapsulated by a headline the other week to the effect that Agincourt was a war crime!

How can we as a society and a planet ever continue to evolve if were always staring into the past for reasons to hate each other. An entire race holding onto hate for that long is like me running over someone who broke my ribs at school (which happened) I have moved on, spoke to that person again and we are different people now. If that can happen in 20 years to 2 people why not a race/religion/credo in three generations.

I am sick of people using the oppression that happened a hundred odd years ago for a get out of free card and with that Im off to sue Denmark for the viking invasion

I think there's a certain point at which it is downright retarded to ask for compensation. Otherwise, where does it end? My Chinese predecessors took it pretty hard when the Japanese invaded in WW2, so cough up, Japan!

Oi! The British got my ancestors addicted to opium! Where's my money?

Hey, Mongolia. Just wanted to talk to you about a guy called GHENGHIS KHAN. GIVE ME YOUR HOUSES.

santaandy:
It's not just race, nationality, and religion. It's also gender, sexuality, and so many other things. Not going into detail here, you can derail this thread for yourself. :)

So me being a White British Male, 18-25, Straight, of no fixed religious belief has to pretty much be sorry to everyone for pretty much everything. According to conventional wisdom.

It's history, i didn't do it, i'm not going to apologise for it.

C Lion:
Uh... no. I'm pretty sure they've got their Holocaust apology already, but come on? An apology for something 2000 years ago? Everyone responsible died and was forgotten ages ago.

Teeheehee. Next jew I meet that says something like that. About how they want a apology or something for the holocaust I'm going to give them shit and say it was fair payback for killing our lord and saviour. <.<;;;

I hereby demand that all those of Saxon, Angle or Jutish (or subsequent invaders)descent give me all their money for stealing my country after the Romans left...in fact, all you people of Roman descent owe me too. 'Celts'...whats that? You thought you were the first to the British Isles? Guess again. I am a direct descendent of Cro Magnon man, I was here first and you all owe me cash, foul oppressors.

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I totally agree. I believe that an apology by a government might be appropriate but not compensation.

How about this for all the whiney conquered races.
The english give them back their land and get out however we take everything we brought with us. So bomb all the towns into the ground, take all the electronics, take all the medicine, shut down all the water systems et cetera. Basically just leave them with the mud huts that their ancestors lived in.
They can sit in their freaking caves and be happy that they got their land back. <.<;;;

corroded:

santaandy:
It's not just race, nationality, and religion. It's also gender, sexuality, and so many other things. Not going into detail here, you can derail this thread for yourself. :)

So me being a White British Male, 18-25, Straight, of no fixed religious belief has to pretty much be sorry to everyone for pretty much everything. According to conventional wisdom.

It's history, i didn't do it, i'm not going to apologise for it.

I didn't say you should. I agree with you. I'm just pointing out other causes.

santaandy:

corroded:

santaandy:
It's not just race, nationality, and religion. It's also gender, sexuality, and so many other things. Not going into detail here, you can derail this thread for yourself. :)

So me being a White British Male, 18-25, Straight, of no fixed religious belief has to pretty much be sorry to everyone for pretty much everything. According to conventional wisdom.

It's history, i didn't do it, i'm not going to apologise for it.

I didn't say you should. I agree with you. I'm just pointing out other causes.

That's alright, i took no offence (i rarely do) but i was just illustrating a point.

Yeah as im half-english i'm still waiting on that check from Rome for the whole invasion thingy. and then i will pass this money on to my irish half for all the oppression and what-not.

Compensation for the deeds of the past is stupid, mainly as how do you decide who gets the money? But also how do you decide when it stops? If england has to pay india, does morocco (or maybe saudi arabia) have to pay spain for the moorish invasion? does greece have to pay everyone from turkey to india for alexanders gap year? If the oppressed aren't alive, then too bad.

I have an even more radical view:

It's your fucking fault for not having guns. You deserved to be murdered/enslaved/etc by us red-coat, pith-helmet wearing sociopaths. Oh, and the Boers. Don't forget about them.

I don't even agree with an apology- that was the way things were conducted back then.The Zulus killed more people in Africa in a space of twenty years than the entirity of Europe. That was why the colonisation of the South African interior was so easy- the Zulu literally cleaned out everywhere from the Highveld to Durban.

Slavery- But it was Africans selling fellow Africans to us evil whities. And yet we get blamed? Epic fail for objectivity.

China- Serves you right for having such nice, shiny things and such an inferior navy. Slight irony intended, but hell, that was the way things were done.

Empire is a good thing. It took advanced civilisation to the mass of people. Sure, we killed a fair number of them in the process, but if you're going to try and stand up against guns and artillery with Assegai and knobkieries, then you're gonna get a kicking.

Arsen:

Lord Krunk:
Yeah, i think we do.

Britain, cough up. We would like to remind you of Gallipoli.

And for the U.S., one word. Vietnam.

....

The Vietnamese had nothing, we tried to give them something, and they fought against us so that they could have nothing.

Logic is imperative.

That isn't true, they fought and won, yet you gave them corpses and rape babies, and you gave your soldiers a cracking heroin addiction, so i guess everybody wins (just stating facts here)

But onto discussion...Affirmative action is wrong (to combat past racism with present racism is just wrong, all that is necessary is to treat employees with respect and equality, not employ an arabian man onto whatever company you own to be the poster child of racial fairness), compensation should not be given at all for the crimes committed 200 plus years ago, and if it IS given to some then it should be given to all who can trace their ancestry (which would never happen, and i don't think it should, look how long FEMA take to give aid to disaster victims).

I think a monument of some kind should be erected so that people may never forget how far they have come from the wrong their forefathers had committed, but that is about it.

And by the way, seeing as the race of the posters is not necessary but does change how the posts are percieved, I am black British, black english, Afro Caribbean or whatever the hell people are calling each other nowadays.

Deadarm:
If it didn't happen in their lifetime and to them they don't deserve to be treated different from anyone else. But then again, I'm still waiting for White Entertainment Television to exist even though I know it won't happen in my lifetime (unless my diabolical plan to take over the world comes to fruition mwahaha).

lol. Minority network for minority peoples, just like you have Al-Jazeera and some asian networks and whatnot. I would say you already have WET, it's called MTV, but it has evolved somewhat over the years so that would be wrong. Besides you wouldn't want a channel like that, BET is poison. You know they refused to show a music video from rap group little brother because it was deemed 'too intelligent'?

Arsen:
I believe as a whole, that if certain individuals within certain groups are still undergoing harsh treatment as a result of our policies, then they ARE entitled to a fair amount of reprieve. On the other hand, if the said groups are merely using the so called notion as a method to gain an advantage they do not deserve, then by all means, it is a notion to be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall I can see both sides of every argument, but I also believe that is a culture's responsibility to ensure that their people hold their heads up high over expecting to be handed everything on the mere basis of their heritage alone.

I am sorry, but on a true level, murder is not a free payroll.
I say this for both Europe and America. Certain people can accept the fact that European culture brought them greater culture, greater goods, and greater aspects overall.

*waits for an ignorant person to claim racism because he just skimmed the surface of this and was taught by his teacher's what racism means*

Seriously. The last part is a joke, yet is serious within the same honest regards.

I agree with what you are saying on most parts there, but i feel that sometimes murder (or genocide) should be grounds for a free payroll. Now i know most would see that and disagree, but after hearing that the last tribe of the cherokee are now citizens of the state of colorado, i just can't help but think that aid from the government could have helped them expand their lands and unite their people, maybe even solidify them as a real part of america, instead of the horribly innacurate label 'red indians' that i always hear and always grinds my shit to no end.

America's forefathers did all but wipe them out, and I think the government should have paid for the sins of the forefathers and granted them some kind of opportunity to expand.

EDIT: whoops it was the state of oklahoma, not colorado. My bad ;-p

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

This.
Apologies? Sure. Absolutely, actually. I think the governments should be all over apologizing to those they may have wronged.
Actual compensation? Like, money? No way. Unless it happened to your parents or you directly.

Like this:

sarahvait:
This is kinda hard to say for me. My great grandparents were japanese americans living in the states during the WWII, and they were put into the internment camps. My grandfather and his brother actually managed to avoid this for the most part by writing letters to the government and asking if there was a place they could go to finish their education (they were sent to a small quaker college). Anyhow, my grandfather did get reperations (sp?) years later, though he just donated to the college that took him in.

It hits pretty close to home for me. But I'm not going to demand the government give me money for it, and neither is my mom.

That is how it should be. The government realized they acted poorly and gave compensation to those involved. Fair enough.

If it happened to you or your parents then yeah, some kind of apology is in order but if we're talking things you never experienced then it's stupid. We can't just apologise for the past or we'll be apologising forever, about the irish thing, the slavery thing, the catholic persecution, the ancient celts? Where does it stop?

My ancestors were starved or driven out of their homelands and I doubt any of the current world governments would pay me back, why should anyone else get such special treatment?

As a White person I hereby apologise to everyone for all unpleasant things done by my race in the past.

I don't really see the point of apologising. An apology doesn't really work at this sort of level. Holding people to account for their actions works well, such as with the Nuremburg trials. Anyway if stuff is too long ago, it just feels hollow.

Just to be safe though may I just apologise on behalf of Homo Sapiens if we did in any way help to contribute to the demise of Neanderthal man...

Arsen:
I believe as a whole, that if certain individuals within certain groups are still undergoing harsh treatment as a result of our policies, then they ARE entitled to a fair amount of reprieve. On the other hand, if the said groups are merely using the so called notion as a method to gain an advantage they do not deserve, then by all means, it is a notion to be taken with a grain of salt.

Overall I can see both sides of every argument, but I also believe that is a culture's responsibility to ensure that their people hold their heads up high over expecting to be handed everything on the mere basis of their heritage alone.

I am sorry, but on a true level, murder is not a free payroll.
I say this for both Europe and America. Certain people can accept the fact that European culture brought them greater culture, greater goods, and greater aspects overall.

*waits for an ignorant person to claim racism because he just skimmed the surface of this and was taught by his teacher's what racism means*

Seriously. The last part is a joke, yet is serious within the same honest regards.

Depends, In most cases no. In some cases Yes.

Slavery in the South, no(We fixed the problem our selves)
Killing 6 million Jews, yes( I dont need to explain that....)

jasoncyrus:

Khell_Sennet:
My stance is that if it didn't happen to you or your parents, you have no bitching rights. Grandparents or beyond, you didn't live with it, you never suffered, you only heard stories. And if people are entitled to compensation because of that, it never ends.

I totally agree with this, if you didn't lve with it, then shut up you don't understand what it was like. Example: The vicious oppression of the Scots by the english. Until this post i have never bothered mentioning because I didn't live through it.

I do however fully bitch about how I'm getting screwed over because england thinks scotland doesn't deserve independance, because I'm currently living through it.

If there are no survivors of the event then no apologies (and sure as hell no memorials every years coz am getting REALLY tired of them) need to be made. Ever.

This is right but Scotland have been combined with England for so long that it is not economically feasible. Pretty much every country owes someone for something that has happened in the past

Fondant:
I have an even more radical view:

It's your fucking fault for not having guns. You deserved to be murdered/enslaved/etc by us red-coat, pith-helmet wearing sociopaths. Oh, and the Boers. Don't forget about them.

I don't even agree with an apology- that was the way things were conducted back then.The Zulus killed more people in Africa in a space of twenty years than the entirity of Europe. That was why the colonisation of the South African interior was so easy- the Zulu literally cleaned out everywhere from the Highveld to Durban.

Slavery- But it was Africans selling fellow Africans to us evil whities. And yet we get blamed? Epic fail for objectivity.

China- Serves you right for having such nice, shiny things and such an inferior navy. Slight irony intended, but hell, that was the way things were done.

Empire is a good thing. It took advanced civilisation to the mass of people. Sure, we killed a fair number of them in the process, but if you're going to try and stand up against guns and artillery with Assegai and knobkieries, then you're gonna get a kicking.

So might make right? Interesting philosophy, although surprisingly, usually held by those who weren't getting their teeth kicked in by invading Europeans.

Also I'm a bit dubious about the advantages that civilization brought to all those races that our Victorian ancestors labelled as 'backwards'. We gave them capitalism so they could sell their primary resources to us at nice low prices and take our manufactured exports in return. We gave them Christianity so they could be 'saved' and incidently give up all those cultural habits we found disgusting or inconvenient. Then we expected them to be grateful for it and not complain when we denied them political rights and occasionly massacred the odd vilage for banditry.

So yes, I think we owe them on a moral and political level even if it isn't practical to simply give a cheque to everyone from a historically oppressed race.

No. If you say yes it's a self-perpetuating evil. I'm part Iranian, so I get all kinds of crap from ignorant people who assume I'm going to blow them up because my Grandfather was born in a country that is near another country that currently has a small extremist organisation operating within it's borders that wants to bring 'Death to the West!'

Why should I feel guilty to every Black person for what some fat colonist ancestor of mine did to one of his ancestors. I wasn't there, neither was the other guy, I've often never even met the other person. It's just pointless grudges drawing wages from themselves.

101194:
Well I'm African American (No not for blacks and slavery) I believe that Romans/Egyptians(Germans already did) should apologize for there treatment towards the Jewish culture for 2000 Years of Slavery I mean We only did 200 they had 2000 I couldn't really imagine that plus the Holocaust I think the Jews have it the Shittiest out of all the races (Don't even try to correct me Jewish is a race and a Religion as well) that's for bringing this up most African Americans Like myself blame white people for slavering us but Jews don't blame anyone there taught to Advance and get a Degree as a doctor or lawyer and that's why I think Jews deserve an Apology (P.S was that racist?)

What?! The Egyptians? Are we talking the old dynasties here? Because if we are I challenge you to find one of them and make him apologize. Also, what did the Egyptians even do? And the same goes for Romans. They don't exist anymore. Who would give the apology? And to whom?

Also, the Romans weren't particularly hard on the Jews all things considered. Only when they revolted. But they came down like a ton of bricks on all revolts, so it wasn't really out of spite. Actually they despised the Christians way more. You gotta understand that whatever the Romans did was not in any way harsh or unfair given the period they did it in. Everybody had slaves and shit. If you lost a war you could expect to be a slave. But hell, with a bit of luck your kids could become freedmen. (Or possibly yourself) The Romans mostly treated their slaves somewhat okay. Though exceptions exist. Especially if revolts were involved. But all that does not even matter as Jews were not often slaves in Roman society. Germans, celts, belgians, ubii, suebii, greeks, thracians and such like, were more often slaves. A lot of the time the Jews were controlled by their own king, for example Herod the Great. If the Romans should apologize to anyone it should the the Italic people who got shafted by Sulla and Marius in the Social Wars. And everybody else, for destroying so much of Athens. Dis take you Lucius Cornelius Sulla. :P
I wont get into newer history and any needs for apologies, but it really makes NO sense going back to ancient times and inventing a fictitious issue.

Sorry about the ranty nature of this. It just annoys me to see stuff like that. I mean, really, there are enough problems without going around inventing any more. And don't drag the Romans into it. Or the Egyptians, though I don't really care about them.

Edit: Also, I did a bit of spell checking so I could figure out what you meant.

I think America owes the Native Americans a little more then some casinos.

australian aboriginals get significantly more rights in australia.