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Paperboy Posts: 33 Joined: 24 Nov 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1299 Joined: 27 Mar 2008     | I laugh at our nationality. Besides I'm also Danish. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 770 Joined: 7 Jan 2008     | Most of my country (Germany, yeah, i can see where this will be going) is so scared of being marked as racist or being reminded of "our" past that it sometimes seems to me like we have some kind of Mirror-Policestate where everyone who speaks out something that may even slightly be interpreted as nationalistic gets insulted and attacked. Of course, that and the growing rate of immigrants in the country also leads to an opposite reaction, as not many, but more and more people start to become ultra-nationalistic. Talk about a no-win situation... |
Paperboy Posts: 33 Joined: 24 Nov 2008 |
Yeah... but it's so concerning it's not meant as a joke :/
I can see how it's difficult to be german... Even though you had nothing to do with what happened back then.. Must be though, I would hate being judged by something i had no part in, nor sympathize with. |
Muckraker  Posts: 324 Joined: 21 Apr 2008     |
Danish here also ;) I think it's very important to distinguish between european and american nationalism. Where I think nationalism/patriotism is something deeply situated in most aspects of american society and culture, I think there's a different attitude towards the nationalism/patriotism in Europe. I haven't done any research obviously, but it's my belief that nationalism is something "uncultivated" or something. Maybe it has to do with 2 World wars, where nationalism were one of the main ingredients, but I think that nationalism is regarded as something shameful in the public discourse. When the immigrants came, and the integration failed, nationalism merged with xenofobia and started pressing the idea that nationalism where something shameful. So now we have a conflict over nationalism, where one part says it's something shameful and uncultivated, but fail to present an alternative or solution to the immigrant issue, and the other part want's to say they are proud of their nation and don't want the "cultivated" multiculturalism. anywho.. Just what I apparently think about it. Hard to go any deeper in text only, and on an internet forum ;) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008    | Same as it ever was! I'm British so it's very much the same. The BNP gets ridiculed and it's membership has just been outed (go freedom of speech! but not freedom of assembly!). The Scots want to be Scottish until they think through the economics. The Welsh want to be Welsh but no one knows why. The Northern Irish are still figuring out what they want to be. The English are getting touchy that all the other constituent countries are constantly ripping on them and now want to be English (instead of British). The St George's flag is less a symbol of hatred than it has been but is barely a symbol of pride yet. But I love my country, both Britain and England. I'm planning to fight for it (joining the army at some point) but this is because I owe her, not because of simple nationalism. Mary Shelley, opening the The Last Man.
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Muckraker Posts: 324 Joined: 21 Apr 2008 | A lot of Danish people on the forums today.. shouldn't you guys be working or studying? :P |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4601 Joined: 25 Feb 2008   | Nah, nationalism doesn't and has never really taken off in the UK. Being a little island on the edge of the Atlantic with few natural resources besides wood and crops, the options are either welcome people from abroad (and their trade) or go bust. Although the Scottish wanting to be governed only by the Scottish (as long as they can have plenty of English money) is rather annoying. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2585 Joined: 27 Sep 2008    |
Well this says it all perfectly, so I don't really need to add any more. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 598 Joined: 27 Apr 2008     | One thing I will always be is proud of my country, despite the slave trade, the BNP, the wars we had no part in joining, the suppression of the Welsh Scots and Irish and the sad state were in because of stupid politicians. I Always have to remind myself were also the country of John Lilburne, the man who ghost wrote the American Constitution, Fish and Chips and Warm Beer. I have been often mistaken for a nationalist as I have a skinhead, now that is deeply annoying in a holistic and major way! But the final thing on the BNP is why in gods name do it's followers revere Adolf Hitler? In on breath there saying "My father didn't die for his country so that immigrants can steal our jobs." Yet with the other kissing photos of the Furer. That is why nationalism wil never take hold. The British are too lazy to riot unless it's about money |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 770 Joined: 7 Jan 2008 |
Yeah...although it is more "annoying" than difficult, and the problem is more that "we" ourselves are the ones that judge the most (except when there is a soccer game versus England or our chancellor fucks up something in foreign affairs). There is just so much unhealthy obsession (or...anti-obsession, if you want to call it like that) with the past that we hurt ourselves more than anyone else does. Just to mention among fellow countrymen that Hitler's Regime created the overly useful Freeways (the "Autobahn") and that the "Volkswagen" (translated: "The People's Car") is also a creation of the third reich (in order to bring benefit to the "small people", to make thier confidence in their country stronger, the Nazis wanted cars that are sturdy and affordable for just about anyone) is enough to bring a shitstorm of hate towards your direction that makes any forum flamewar look like a fight among infants |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4601 Joined: 25 Feb 2008 |
Or football. |
Muckraker  Posts: 315 Joined: 21 Nov 2008   | Nationalism is a tool used by governments to manipulate its citizens into sacrificing their lives for the fictional concept of the 'state', Humans divided themselves up into groups called 'countries' and the leaders of these countries wnated to make sure people followed them and would do what they were told. So states create this romantic notion that their is something to be proud of i an arbitrary area and thus you should do as you are told because for some unspecified reason they are representing the history of this region. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Mostly football. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Ha ha ha. Clichéd, what year of college are you in? I am proud of my nation. It gave the world a modern understanding of economics (Smith & Keynes). It gave the world an understanding of gravity, penicillin and universe in general (thank you Mr Newton, Fleming & Hawking). We made the first steam engines, the first radar and the first jet engine (well, one of!). We sheltered Marx and Freud but locked up Wilde. We are the country of Dickens, Shakespeare, Churchill. Drake, Elizabeth and Henry VII. Tea, Fish & chips and chicken tikka marsala. All of these things, all of my country, has gone to make me me. If I were born in the US, or Canada, or South Africa, or anywhere, I would be a different person today. I am thankful for our education system which got me a great degree at minimal cost, I am thankful for our healthcare system which kept me alive as a sick child without financially crippling my parents, I am thankful for a government that despite it's failings allows me almost unending freedoms. If none of these are things to be proud of, and more importantly grateful for, then we obviously value different things. Unthinking loyalty is a weakness but I can assure you that mine is consciously and logically reasoned, and it is stronger for that. Yes it was luck I was born in Britain but that makes me realise more how lucky I am. This is all coming from a graduate with an MA in Politics and Social History so I know the arguments of arbitrary social groupings. Point is; in this world there are groups that damn well suck to be born into, and my nationality is not one of. |
Paperboy  Posts: 34 Joined: 10 Sep 2008   | The idea of feeling love and/or pride for a country has always been perplexing to me. The reasons for this are as follows: 1. I can't be proud of someone elses achievements, just as well as I can't be ashamed over someone elses missdeads (but maybe that's just me). Thus, I can't be proud of niether the good stuff the country I live in has accomplished nor feel ashamed of the bad things it has done. 2. As for love, well it's a strong feeling not easily to be given or earned. Theres alot of things that I really like about my country but there are also equally much that I dislike about it. One or several great things doesn't outdo one or several atrocities it has done, and I couldn't say I love a country who has, for instance, been responsible for innumerous innocents death no matter the reason. Now, the fact that I'm a "cross-breed" might explain why I don't find any loyalties towards the country I live in, but thats another matter. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 67 Joined: 21 Sep 2008  | Oh that´s a topic that concernes me too. |
Muckraker Posts: 324 Joined: 21 Apr 2008 |
I might just be on my 3. semester, but Ken Korda does have a point. The nation is a fiction, an imaginary community. You state that your nationality is a social group that does not suck to be born in. I think that's a rather weird statement. Perhaps it's a good country to be born into if you're middle-class, but I guess there are a lot of people who don't have the same conditions you do. Also, you talk about your country as being the thing to make you you. Thats a pretty weird statement as well. Brits aren't all alike. Your society is diverse, and I'd say you are more the product of a specific part of the british society, than some arbitrary general "britishness" |
Muckraker Posts: 315 Joined: 21 Nov 2008 |
Thank you for that condesending response, I am also a post graduate student, in the field of European Politics ( although as you may have noticed, still not a very good typist). |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
S'alright, comes free with the drink. But seriously, so obvious you were a student.
Firstly the boundaries are not arbitrary all the time. They grow organically from conflict, language, policy and culture. If you're a grad student in politics you should know this pretty well. Secondly. It's not like being proud of your lottery win, it's like being proud of your parents. You reap the benefits of their hard work. That is the main reason for my pride. My country has worked hard and I'm enjoying it's benefits. Thirdly. It would be nice to think that all people could be proud of all of humanity's actions. To an extent they are and can be. But even the tiniest bit of an education in humanities will teach you that people form groups, always and without fail. The nation is one that has lasted, in one form or another, since people begun settling to farm instead of hunt. People are defined by their weaknesses as much as their strengths and people will always need an 'us' to define themselves against a 'them', not necessarily in a hostile manner but still a group division. |
Muckraker Posts: 315 Joined: 21 Nov 2008 |
Yes I agree people have historically formed groups but I also beleive that as technology has improved these groups have expanded. I do not beleive that these groups are necessarily beneficial. Just saying it has always been like this does not mean it should continue like this. Personally, I attempt not to identify with a particualar nation, based group and I think global society would function better were this a more common position. For example, it does not matter if jobs are created in one state or another, just that people are enjoying the benefits of employment. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Obviously its a bonus to be born middle class, but that's a step up in any society (well most Western ones anyway). My Dad's dad was a miner and my Mum's dad was a sailor in the navy. My Dad one himself a place at a grammar school (British) and the got a place at university on the back of it. He's gone from a terraced house in Coventry to a suburban detached in NW London on the back of his effort, helped by the fact the system was not set against him (didn't have to pay for university). I don't really consider a nation that has existed (as England) since 907 as an imagined community. Yes there are different people who are British in different ways but there are common threads. Sometimes its a simple as knowing who Timmy Mallet without wanting to. Working, middle and upper class Britain have all formed under the shared experiences of history and each other. I would never say "my country is the best, that's why I love it" but I love it partially because 'britishness' is so vague. But then so is every country's national character, it would take a book to write down it all but it's there. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 609 Joined: 12 Sep 2008    | NATIONALISM, does this answer your question? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Humans almost always need an other to define themselves against. That's why nailing what is 'British' on the head is very difficult as 90% of national sentiment is derived from what we're not. That doesn't take anything away from it, its naturally, to see something you don't like and go "that's not me." You must have heard of the raft of group experiments they do when they generically assign people teams on a simple colour. Every time these tests are done people stick with their teams to agree. It's a noble hope but it's kind of like trying to take an aspect of what is us out of us.
Oh god, I don't mean in a direct familial sense. Hell two of my best mates (one English born Indian, the other English born Pakistani) are more British than I am! Actually from my surname it is almost completely guaranteed that at least one direction of my lineage is English. Unfortunately I think the other is Irish. I am proud of sacrifices of my countrymen during the wars. They literally died so I can sit in my pyjamas until 3pm on the weekends and watch the Hollyoaks omnibus. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Man law 263: Shut the fuck up for 2 minutes on the 11th of November each year. You owe the people that died for your future that much. EDIT: That should be man law 1111, thinking about it. |
Muckraker Posts: 324 Joined: 21 Apr 2008 |
Well, The community where nobody know everybody is imagined. The nation not given by nature. "England" have existed since 900, but the idea of England is constantly changing. I'm trying to criticize the essentialism i sense in your posts. You claim that England is something essential, and even though you say it's vague, you still believe in some kind of national "spirit" of britishness. I think it's much more complex than that. I think you and I, as students from the middleclass, urban citizens, gamers, caucasian (i take it), have more in common than we have with other social groups in our own country. I agree that the british have some kind of common "culture" (In the Stuart Hall kind of "shared meanings" sort of way) embedded in your language, but that's not equal to the "volksgeist" (hehe) you try to impose on the imagined community of "England". I don't know if I make much sense in this post, since it was last semester I did a project on national identity, and it was in danish, not in english (so I'm feverishly trying to translate :)). |
Paperboy Posts: 33 Joined: 24 Nov 2008 |
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm going to go with no here. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 92 Joined: 25 Mar 2008  | "I love mah flag, mah country, and mah black president."-America*- /* represents me speaking for America |
Beat Writer  Posts: 200 Joined: 19 Aug 2008 | Danish here as well, and I'm a bit confused. Nationalism seems to be considered negative in this thread, which I think is odd since I usually consider nationalism to be a good thing. (the first definition on the list below) This may bebecause of the fact that I've worked too much on Danish 19th and (early) 20th century litterature, which is a lot about that sort of nationalism. na⋅tion⋅al⋅ism -noun (Yes it was a copy&paste job) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1600 Joined: 1 Nov 2008   | Nationalism in Britain is growing, I think. I think a bit of national pride is not a bad thing, but extreme nationalism is. The link in ideology between the British National Party and that of Nazism is worrying, made even moreso by the rise in voting figures... |
Muckraker Posts: 324 Joined: 21 Apr 2008 | It all depends on how you use it offcourse. But the widespread idea of nationalism seems to be that it's something bad. I think this has to do with the fact that the rightwing has captured it, and is now systematically using it to legitimate their policies.
It all depends on how you use it offcourse. But the widespread idea of nationalism seems to be that it's something bad. I think this has to do with the fact that the rightwing has captured it, and is now systematically using it to legitimate their policies. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 423 Joined: 25 Nov 2008  | ugh, nationalism....not saying its bad or anything (maybe dunno) well im an Icelander, and nowadays its always "goddamn British" "british are blablabla" and now the government wants money from denmark and some other Scandinavian contries without having any plan at all on how to use the money so it will actually help this oh so poor island that they live in. rant /off |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Actually I would argue that the state or rather the nation (I hate political definitions, what is power? I hated that one) is an natural thing. For a very long time people have lived in communities larger than the single family unit. Be it the tribe of hunters, the villager of farmers or the city of urbanites. It is part of almost every humans' experience to be born into a group that he will be guided by over his years. Yes there are people that move around a lot but they are not the majority. The natural default is community. As for England (although I believe a lot of it works for Britain) as a whole I'm going to pass you onto my learned colleague, Mr George Orwell (full text here: http://www.k-1.com/Orwell/index.cgi/work/essays/lionunicorn.html): |
Beat Writer Posts: 200 Joined: 19 Aug 2008 |
Oh, right, I understand, yes it has been somewhat hijacked by the rightwing to appeal to the elderly, who are afraid of changes in the overall demographic of the country (as you stated above). If that is the sort of nationalism we are talking about, then it certaintly has a negative impact on our country. I prefer the cozy, national-anthem singing, football watching kind of nationalism, that everyone can enjoy :) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1094 Joined: 11 Oct 2008   | I never was one for the idea of grabbing a sword, shouting my country's name and running blindly into battle, I'm more of the mercenary type: So you want me to shout my country's name and run into battle for a large amount of cash? hell yes! |
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Hi fellow escapists...
As far as I know, a wave of nationalism is sweeping across the globe.
Where I'm from (Denmark) nationalism it thriving, constantly feasting off of old people who fear "strangers". Constantly being superimposed in the media as an urgent threat to the country it self. In the case of Denmark, I'm not entirely sure of what people are afraid of losing... Most of the culture being portrayed as danish is typically something rural, something "smalltownish" playing on familiar strings like coffee and cake in a countryside house - something relating to a period so distant.. like the world doesn't change if we just close our eyes (and our borders)
Nationalism makes me a sad panda...
Mind me if I'm wrong
How is the nationalism coming along in your countries?