Kringel:
Hi fellow escapists...

As far as I know, a wave of nationalism is sweeping across the globe.
Where I'm from (Denmark) nationalism it thriving, constantly feasting off of old people who fear "strangers". Constantly being superimposed in the media as an urgent threat to the country it self. In the case of Denmark, I'm not entirely sure of what people are afraid of losing... Most of the culture being portrayed as danish is typically something rural, something "smalltownish" playing on familiar strings like coffee and cake in a countryside house - something relating to a period so distant.. like the world doesn't change if we just close our eyes (and our borders)

Nationalism makes me a sad panda...

Mind me if I'm wrong
How is the nationalism coming along in your countries?

What are people afraid of losing?
Social integrity (seeing rapes in Denmark have skyrocketed)
Freedom of speech (Muhammed cartoons)

Be proud of what you currently have compared to some crappy places..

Hyper-space:
ugh, nationalism....not saying its bad or anything (maybe dunno)

well im an Icelander, and nowadays its always "goddamn British" "british are blablabla"
it seems that this country priorities number uno is to whine about the IceSave business. and now the middle class cant buy a bigger house or a new car so of course its the governments fault that they take endless loans just to buy something they shouldn't have in the first place.

and now the government wants money from denmark and some other Scandinavian contries without having any plan at all on how to use the money so it will actually help this oh so poor island that they live in.

rant /off

Ha ha, as a Brit I apologise profusely. I certainly hope we can't get all this worked out so that we can come enjoy your food, culture, er, outdoor heated swimming pools!

But seriously, the amount of money we stole must be enormous when its split between all twelve of your taxpayers.

THese man laws again! ARGH!
And i will pay respect to people who die, fine, i always do. I didn't this year come to think of it but i forgot.
And i just said i hate nastionalism. that's all.

Jharry5:
Nationalism in Britain is growing, I think. I think a bit of national pride is not a bad thing, but extreme nationalism is. The link in ideology between the British National Party and that of Nazism is worrying, made even moreso by the rise in voting figures...

Yep. If it is one particular group I hate it's Neo-Nazis (which the BNP is, make no mistake). Not only are they actually getting councillors elected here in the UK, they are getting some mainstream media backing. Look at the pages of the Express, the Mail, or the Telegraph. It's actually quite shocking to think just how many racist and heavily nationalistic people are out there.

Im American, and I love my nation, as does 99.99% of all people who live in the USA. They may not out right say it, but everytime someone speaksout, they are paying tribute to the founding ideals of America.

I would lay down my life for a justice cause of action, because without freedom what else do you have.....nothing.

(I can totally see this getting flamed, I dont really care)

Kringel:

TheDean:
NATIONALISM, does this answer your question?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm going to go with no here.

You jerk! THe answer was after that bit. MORON!

TheDean:

I don't give a damn about my country. ever.

What, ever? I hope you're country doesn't take it personally.

what i mean is that every country is a place w/ ppl in it. i have no loyalty to one more than others.

Here's a question for you Danes, what do you think of Hans island? asks a self described Canadian nationalist.

Ken Korda:
Nationalism is a tool used by governments to manipulate its citizens into sacrificing their lives for the fictional concept of the 'state', Humans divided themselves up into groups called 'countries' and the leaders of these countries wnated to make sure people followed them and would do what they were told. So states create this romantic notion that their is something to be proud of i an arbitrary area and thus you should do as you are told because for some unspecified reason they are representing the history of this region.
Nationalism should be avoided at all costs because like religion it stops people form thinking. People assume that because they do something for 'the love of their country' that makes it right and no further thought is required. Hence things like war can take place becuase people don't think they just assume their government is best because of their patriotism.
National pride should be spurned and ridiculed for its ridiculous stories at all costs. The world is progressing to greater integration in all fields of government and there is no plac for nationalism.
Importantly, I am not criticisng cultures of different states just blind loyalty to a fictional concept because you were born in one area and not another.

You sir, have a rather morbid view of nationalism. As with any ideology and religion it can be manipulated if your not careful. So long as you are self aware and don't do things because the mob is doing them. there is no issue with nationalism, having something to be proud of encourages people, and therefore (if you want to take it in this direction) makes people more accepting of one another within the nation.

Now where I think your going a bit of the track is that although nationalism definatly has the POTENTIAL to be exclusive, and in many academic circles it is seen as an exclusive ideology. You don't have to use it as such.

Oh and the state is a real entity, was, will and forever be.

N.K:

It all depends on how you use it offcourse. But the widespread idea of nationalism seems to be that it's something bad. I think this has to do with the fact that the rightwing has captured it, and is now systematically using it to legitimate their policies.

Oh, right, I understand, yes it has been somewhat hijacked by the rightwing to appeal to the elderly, who are afraid of changes in the overall demographic of the country (as you stated above). If that is the sort of nationalism we are talking about, then it certaintly has a negative impact on our country. I prefer the cozy, national-anthem singing, football watching kind of nationalism, that everyone can enjoy :)[/quote]

The problem with this kind of "innocent" nationalism, is that, I believe, it is not something for everyone. It's still exclusive in some ways, since there's a constant articulation of "the nation" and "nationality" through symbols. It's still the whole "We are the danes", where the general conception of a dane is the white dane. The whole native/foreigner is still going on to some extend. But let me just straighten out some things before I get accused of being butt-hurt ;)

I don't think the cozy national anthem singing should be targeted or changed, but we should be aware that it's exclusive in some ways, and then try to change it o be more pluralistic ;). I love the Prom Nights in England. Pretty nationalistic setting (rule brettania and all) but with all kinds of flags flying around in the hall.

TheDean:
what i mean is that every country is a place w/ ppl in it. i have no loyalty to one more than others.

Thats a fair point,

I have Loyalty to the founding Ideals of my nation. We may not always reach these Stout after ideals all the time, but at least we have goals. Any man no matter the color of his skin, the beliefs he my hold, or the creed he maybe, If he is a Citizen of my country, and supports the same ideals, I support him.

However I would never force my ideals on to people.... Some people seem to fail at this idea.

Patriotism is definitely not the same as nationalism. It supposedly means only that you love your own country, while nationalism means that you disrespect other countries or nations. The whole concept of nations is a relatively recent cultural development, it started somewhere after the medieval times in europe. Also, nationalism in europe is very different from nationalism in america or australia, whose inhabitants are actually descended from various nations from around the world - we might say that these countries can only be patriotic.

I dislike the idea of nations in the nationalist sense, because the only differences we have are purely cultural - we are all the same people, but we speak different languages, have different beliefs or simply live in different locations or regions. While nations have played a big role in the development of the present world, we might consider them outdated now. We are here, talking, from anywhere, the net is here, communication is instant and universal.. It seems to me that there is no reason to think with boundaries, to be nationalist. Nationalism is now just another division, a way to think of someone as "them", which gives "us" the liberty to behave in less than ethical ways. Wars are dependent on that division, as long as there are groups of "them" and "us" there can always be war.

I come from a nationalist country, it's not considered normal here if you aren't a gun wielding nationalist. But I am also a witness to wars which were led in the name of nationalism, and believe me, there is hardly anything worse... Oh yeah, I'm anti-nationalist.

P.S. Speaking from the back of my mind, I remember that the genetic similarity between us and chimps is 99,5%.. Making all of us practically the same. Making nationalism a celebration of the fact that I speak another language.. Well, languages and cultures can be learned, I guess. Nationalism sucks.

P.P.S. Mind that patriotism is fine with me, when I speak of nationalism I mean the kind where hatred is involved. Or divisions, or disrespect. Or lack of thinking.

Robert0288:
Here's a question for you Danes, what do you think of Hans island? asks a self described Canadian nationalist.

IT'S OURS!!!

Honestly, I don't know enough about that particular issue to write anything smart, if I'm not completely mistaken though, it's a part of Greenland, which in turn is a part of Denmark.
I don't feel any ownership of the island though, I'm more of a mainland-nationalist.

(I have to go now, but will return later.)

Jursa:
I never was one for the idea of grabbing a sword, shouting my country's name and running blindly into battle, I'm more of the mercenary type: So you want me to shout my country's name and run into battle for a large amount of cash? hell yes!

yeah but you would never fight against your brother or your family, for money. So money only goes so far, or you are a sick sad person, who would not only kill your follow countrymen but possibly your family?

The buck stops here.....

Hans island map according to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Island

its a rock so far in the middle of nowhere its crazy. I'm ready to declare joint ownership with you guys :) Or we can split it down the middle and have another hockey game on it.

Nationalism.. Each time I hear that word, I can't help but think of that Chinese guy in C&C Generals..

"Nationalism will bring us victory!"
*rolls out a horde of Overlord tanks*

Mariena:
Nationalism.. Each time I hear that word, I can't help but think of that Chinese guy in C&C Generals..

"Nationalism will bring us victory!"
*rolls out a horde of Overlord tanks*

LOL, I love that game.

rossatdi:

Actually I would argue that the state or rather the nation (I hate political definitions, what is power? I hated that one) is an natural thing. For a very long time people have lived in communities larger than the single family unit. Be it the tribe of hunters, the villager of farmers or the city of urbanites. It is part of almost every humans' experience to be born into a group that he will be guided by over his years. Yes there are people that move around a lot but they are not the majority. The natural default is community.

As for England (although I believe a lot of it works for Britain) as a whole I'm going to pass you onto my learned colleague, Mr George Orwell

The first part I agree with. The Orwell quote is a god example of what I'm trying to say.

Orwell articulates his views on Britain. While it's a good description of his ideas on the "spirit" of England, it is nothing more than his articulation of some ideas. He conceives the legends of "the charge of the light brigade" (which I assume is what he refers to) as an example of the british general disgust towards war-fetichism. Long time ago, I saw a program on Discovery regarding same myth. The way they conceived it was totally different. In the story of the charge, there's a lot of symbolism and such, namely, "the british will face death, having no fear, even though the odds are against them". Another part of the story, is that the british, turkish auxiliary troops failed them, because they cowardly retreated.

Now:The charge, can be either an example of british anti-militarism, or an tale of heroic british nobles, and cowardly turks. no matter where you stand, the charge, is a part of the construction of the british "volkgeist".

Do you see my point? There's a huge problem on trying to characterize the british. There's no "essentialism" to England

grenobl:
Patriotism is definitely not the same as nationalism. It supposedly means only that you love your own country, while nationalism means that you disrespect other countries or nations. The whole concept of nations is a relatively recent cultural development, it started somewhere after the medieval times in europe. Also, nationalism in europe is very different from nationalism in america or australia, whose inhabitants are actually descended from various nations from around the world - we might say that these countries can only be patriotic.

I dislike the idea of nations in the nationalist sense, because the only differences we have are purely cultural - we are all the same people, but we speak different languages, have different beliefs or simply live in different locations or regions. While nations have played a big role in the development of the present world, we might consider them outdated now. We are here, talking, from anywhere, the net is here, communication is instant and universal.. It seems to me that there is no reason to think with boundaries, to be nationalist. Nationalism is now just another division, a way to think of someone as "them", which gives "us" the liberty to behave in less than ethical ways. Wars are dependent on that division, as long as there are groups of "them" and "us" there can always be war.

I come from a nationalist country, it's not considered normal here if you aren't a gun wielding nationalist. But I am also a witness to wars which were led in the name of nationalism, and believe me, there is hardly anything worse... Oh yeah, I'm anti-nationalist.

P.S. Speaking from the back of my mind, I remember that the genetic similarity between us and chimps is 99,5%.. Making all of us practically the same. Making nationalism a celebration of the fact that I speak another language.. Well, languages and cultures can be learned, I guess. Nationalism sucks.

P.P.S. Mind that patriotism is fine with me, when I speak of nationalism I mean the kind where hatred is involved. Or divisions, or disrespect. Or lack of thinking.

I agree with you

So, taking your logic, Im not a Nationlist, but more of a Patriot.

Here in America we dont have any real hate towards other nations or people, all things considering.

Uskis:

Now:The charge, can be either an example of british anti-militarism, or an tale of heroic british nobles, and cowardly turks. no matter where you stand, the charge, is a part of the construction of the british "volkgeist".

Do you see my point? There's a huge problem on trying to characterize the british. There's no "essentialism" to England

I'm not sure I get you. England exists, it has characteristics. They need not be what they are but surely enough they must have come about through the country's experience and its people.

What do you mean by essentialism here?

Britishness is definite but changing. As surely all cultures/national identities are. There are people not born in Britain who are British and there are people who are born and raised in the country and yet not. In that way it is not essentialist, but in another, as a mass, we can be reduced to the products of history.

Hevoo:

Jursa:
I never was one for the idea of grabbing a sword, shouting my country's name and running blindly into battle, I'm more of the mercenary type: So you want me to shout my country's name and run into battle for a large amount of cash? hell yes!

yeah but you would never fight against your brother or your family, for money. So money only goes so far, or you are a sick sad person, who would not only kill your follow countrymen but possibly your family?

The buck stops here.....

Hmm I don't know if I understood that correctly, but are you implying that it's more ok to kill people who are not from the same country as you are, than it is to kill someone that is?

There you are, it's ok to kill "them", but not "us"... Creepy.

Kringel:
Hi fellow escapists...

As far as I know, a wave of nationalism is sweeping across the globe.
Where I'm from (Denmark) nationalism it thriving, constantly feasting off of old people who fear "strangers". Constantly being superimposed in the media as an urgent threat to the country it self. In the case of Denmark, I'm not entirely sure of what people are afraid of losing... Most of the culture being portrayed as danish is typically something rural, something "smalltownish" playing on familiar strings like coffee and cake in a countryside house - something relating to a period so distant.. like the world doesn't change if we just close our eyes (and our borders)

Nationalism makes me a sad panda...

Mind me if I'm wrong
How is the nationalism coming along in your countries?

Fearing strangers is more of a right-wing mindset. The right-wing political view is generally anti-nationalisation. Although, as we have moved towards a globalised society I guess you could argue that free markets do welcome international investment and hence a migrant work force.

I'm german and you can possibly imagine that it's a little bit compicated with the nationalism.

Just one week ago I saw a Halloween episode of the Simpsons in english. It was the episode in which Homer turns into a giant blob and eats several people. At one point he comes to some kind of Oktoberfest and starts eating Bavarians. Before being swallowed one of them says "What have we done to deserve this? Oh, I see...", which I thought was out of place and very offending.

It's not that Germans don't know about their history, we don't ignore it either and everyone knows this mustn't happen again. But even 60 years after WW2 ended and the generation which experienced the horrible times is dying, my generation (I'm 29) and the ones coming after me are confronted with a historic heritage we don't want to identify ourselves with.
I say it again: we are well aware of our history, but I think I should be allowed to say that I'm proud of the very good german health system for example without being interpreted in a direction with which I don't have anything to do with.

beddo:

Kringel:
Hi fellow escapists...

As far as I know, a wave of nationalism is sweeping across the globe.
Where I'm from (Denmark) nationalism it thriving, constantly feasting off of old people who fear "strangers". Constantly being superimposed in the media as an urgent threat to the country it self. In the case of Denmark, I'm not entirely sure of what people are afraid of losing... Most of the culture being portrayed as danish is typically something rural, something "smalltownish" playing on familiar strings like coffee and cake in a countryside house - something relating to a period so distant.. like the world doesn't change if we just close our eyes (and our borders)

Nationalism makes me a sad panda...

Mind me if I'm wrong
How is the nationalism coming along in your countries?

Fearing strangers is more of a right-wing mindset. The right-wing political view is generally anti-nationalisation. Although, as we have moved towards a globalised society I guess you could argue that free markets do welcome international investment and hence a migrant work force.

Lol, sorry for not reading properly, I thought you were talking about nationalisation not nationalism.

Robert0288:

Oh and the state is a real entity, was, will and forever be.

... except it wasn't.. Do you think the Vikings conceived themselves as danes, swedes or norwegians?

Do you think the people who lived in the geographic region of Turkey conceived themselves as Turks during the Ottoman Empire?

The Turkish state was formed after 1. world war by Kemal Atatürk. He was the one to call it a turkish national state.

The state is a (relative) recent invention. Try reading "faces of the state" by Navaro Yashin. That was a pretty good book.

Pathwalker:

Hevoo:

Jursa:
I never was one for the idea of grabbing a sword, shouting my country's name and running blindly into battle, I'm more of the mercenary type: So you want me to shout my country's name and run into battle for a large amount of cash? hell yes!

yeah but you would never fight against your brother or your family, for money. So money only goes so far, or you are a sick sad person, who would not only kill your follow countrymen but possibly your family?

The buck stops here.....

Hmm I don't know if I understood that correctly, but are you implying that it's more ok to kill people who are not from the same country as you are, than it is to kill someone that is?

No, Im saying if events took places that put your nation at war with another nation. I would bet that the person I quoted would fight for his nation not for money. Not because for god or country or any of that crap, but for his family.

rossatdi:

I'm not sure I get you. England exists, it has characteristics. They need not be what they are but surely enough they must have come about through the country's experience and its people.

What do you mean by essentialism here?

Britishness is definite but changing. As surely all cultures/national identities are. There are people not born in Britain who are British and there are people who are born and raised in the country and yet not. In that way it is not essentialist, but in another, as a mass, we can be reduced to the products of history.

My point is, that trying to define "britishness" as something essential is futile. By essential, I mean something that you give all people in the british society, something that is real and essential to that of being british. My point is that what is "british" is constantly being defined, redefined and articulated. You can't "identify" some vices or virtues to be essential for everyone in britain.

The way I see it, there is a constant discursive battle going on, to define what is "british". Obviously there are conflicting values and standpoints on this, and thus, trying to analyze or identify the true nature of the british, since there are none. (It's hard to explain when english is not my first language, but I hope I make sense)

You mentioned having spent a great deal of time on the subject of power. Have you read about Foucault and his ideas on power and knowledge?

I'm not a very big fan of nationalism, myself. I'm really not a big fan of patriotism anymore either. I dunno; I like it here in the US, but I've been in a lot of other countries that I found to be just fine for the people there as well. I guess the whole "MY COUNTRY IS THE BEST!!" thing weirds me out.

It really started to irk me after I served in the Army for a while. Instead of making me more of a patriot...it pretty much ruined it for me. People act like they're willing to die for their country and all, but that really wasn't the hard part for me. Dying is easy compared to what some of us had to do, I think. It just really made me take a step back and think, "Just what makes the US better? WHY do I even love my country?" After asking myself that a few years ago I still don't really have the answers.

Jesus fucking Christ I rambled..

Edit:

Hevoo:

Pathwalker:

Hevoo:

Jursa:
I never was one for the idea of grabbing a sword, shouting my country's name and running blindly into battle, I'm more of the mercenary type: So you want me to shout my country's name and run into battle for a large amount of cash? hell yes!

yeah but you would never fight against your brother or your family, for money. So money only goes so far, or you are a sick sad person, who would not only kill your follow countrymen but possibly your family?

The buck stops here.....

Hmm I don't know if I understood that correctly, but are you implying that it's more ok to kill people who are not from the same country as you are, than it is to kill someone that is?

No, Im saying if events took places that put your nation at war with another nation. I would bet that the person I quoted would fight for his nation not for money. Not because for god or country or any of that crap, but for his family.

That's pretty accurate, actually. I wouldn't say a lot of Americans fight right now for their families, but if a war ever came home I imagine most would (because we'd all get drafted).

Uskis:

My point is, that trying to define "britishness" as something essential is futile. By essential, I mean something that you give all people in the british society, something that is real and essential to that of being british. My point is that what is "british" is constantly being defined, redefined and articulated. You can't "identify" some vices or virtues to be essential for everyone in britain.

The way I see it, there is a constant discursive battle going on, to define what is "british". Obviously there are conflicting values and standpoints on this, and thus, trying to analyze or identify the true nature of the british, since there are none. (It's hard to explain when english is not my first language, but I hope I make sense)

You mentioned having spent a great deal of time on the subject of power. Have you read about Foucault and his ideas on power and knowledge?

OK, I think I get what you're saying but I would argue that although not all Britons fit have all the characteristics of being British. There certainly are things that in general most of the population will exhibit. But I think its a true case of "the answer is in the middle". There is enough of an argument to assume that there lies a bit of truth in a British national identity.

Foucault? I might of but I can't remember. I hated that stuff. I don't mind defining "justice" but "power" is so vague and all encompassing.

rossatdi:

Hyper-space:
ugh, nationalism....not saying its bad or anything (maybe dunno)

well im an Icelander, and nowadays its always "goddamn British" "british are blablabla"
it seems that this country priorities number uno is to whine about the IceSave business. and now the middle class cant buy a bigger house or a new car so of course its the governments fault that they take endless loans just to buy something they shouldn't have in the first place.

and now the government wants money from denmark and some other Scandinavian contries without having any plan at all on how to use the money so it will actually help this oh so poor island that they live in.

rant /off

Ha ha, as a Brit I apologise profusely. I certainly hope we can't get all this worked out so that we can come enjoy your food, culture, er, outdoor heated swimming pools!

But seriously, the amount of money we stole must be enormous when its split between all twelve of your taxpayers.

xD had a good lol out of the last sentence.

well anyway, im not sympathetic over all the "hardship" of my fellow icelanders.....

"oh look, i want a jeep! lets take a loan" **** this idiocy that seem to poison their minds when it comes to controlling ones money.

oh and one funny thing, some singer here in iceland invested heavily in one of the biggest banks, and now hes broke xD good for him

rossatdi:

OK, I think I get what you're saying but I would argue that although not all Britons fit have all the characteristics of being British. There certainly are things that in general most of the population will exhibit. But I think its a true case of "the answer is in the middle". There is enough of an argument to assume that there lies a bit of truth in a British national identity.

Foucault? I might of but I can't remember. I hated that stuff. I don't mind defining "justice" but "power" is so vague and all encompassing.

They may have the characteristics of the british, but the characteristics that they define as british. Some claim multiculturalism is british, some not, and so on. Thus, all might claim to hold "true" britishness, but no one is right, because there is no "real" spirit of the british to identify, it's all constructed through the articulation of britishness.

It's some pretty complicated ideas I try to relate, especially since I don't understand it enough to relay it at all. Foucault is pretty though (because he's an arrogant frenchman who likes to overcomplicate his stuff to an insane degree), but his ideas on power and knowledge is pretty interesting.

I don't know if you would have encountered it in your study. We have a pretty broad introduction to all the aspects of social sciences: Politology, economics, sociology, geography and spacial studies etc. It sounds like you have had most politology and economics, in which case I can't blame you for not having encountered this kind of theory of sciences, since it's mostly in social philosophy and Cultural studies.

Uskis:

I don't know if you would have encountered it in your study. We have a pretty broad introduction to all the aspects of social sciences: Politology, economics, sociology, geography and spacial studies etc. It sounds like you have had most politology and economics, in which case I can't blame you for not having encountered this kind of theory of sciences, since it's mostly in social philosophy and Cultural studies.

Please tell me politology is a hilarious mistranslation.

rossatdi:

Uskis:

I don't know if you would have encountered it in your study. We have a pretty broad introduction to all the aspects of social sciences: Politology, economics, sociology, geography and spacial studies etc. It sounds like you have had most politology and economics, in which case I can't blame you for not having encountered this kind of theory of sciences, since it's mostly in social philosophy and Cultural studies.

Please tell me politology is a hilarious mistranslation.

I guess... It's a part of social sciences, concerned with the studies of the institutions of society, like the legislative organs, economics like Keynes and the like

It makes sense. Politics + science = Politology! I think I'm going to start using it. I have an interview for uni next week. Think I'll say it then.