KneeLord:
According to all the science, research and opinions of medical professionals, you are entirely wrong in your statement. That said, given how vehemently you emphasize your sweeping generalizations with swearing, I doubt this post, or any other evidence provided will dissuade you from running your mouth.

Perhaps I failed to explain myself properly. Having had it suggested to me that people who commit suicide are just like people who die from cancer made me see red, and I lashed out at out the nonsense I was presented with. I apologise to all if I came off as unfriendly to the mentally ill, or other such. I really should avoid posting when something has managed to irritate me.

Now then, to address your actual post:
A well reasoned argument, but I find a few things I disagree with, as to be expected, I guess. Psychology is very interpretational. Please note that what I said was generalised, not specific. Different people will have different reactions from treatment, but depression is not considered to be a disability or permanent illness by any reputable authority on the matter. Chronic depression and bipolar are different matters. Latest stats I can find post chronic depression sufferers as 14~18% of all people with depression. Their condition is often considered permanent, as the part of the brain that responds to treatment is often damaged or not functioning properly, and we don't have the technology to fix that.

Suicide takes a direct decision from the person. I can find no reliable case studies that list suicide as one of the effects of depression. Also, please note I was not suggesting that all people who get cancer die of it. I was saying there is a big difference between someone who dies from cancer, and someone who chooses suicide.
Note as well that I used one curse word when describing the consideration of others that suiciders have. I don't think I "vehmently emphasised" anything other than that.

Anyway, Kneelord, cheers for the counter. I'll try to explain myself a bit clearer next time. Aggression doesn't lead to well rounded posts. However, you do have a point. I am bigotted against people who commit suicide. I know full well the impact on the people left behind, and after going through that, I'll never change my opinion of them. I may also need to clarify that I do not view suicide and euthanasia as the same thing.

Jaythulhu:

KneeLord:
According to all the science, research and opinions of medical professionals, you are entirely wrong in your statement. That said, given how vehemently you emphasize your sweeping generalizations with swearing, I doubt this post, or any other evidence provided will dissuade you from running your mouth.

Perhaps I failed to explain myself properly. Having had it suggested to me that people who commit suicide are just like people who die from cancer made me see red, and I lashed out at out the nonsense I was presented with. I apologise to all if I came off as unfriendly to the mentally ill, or other such. I really should avoid posting when something has managed to irritate me.

You did explain yourself properly, and you did again just now.

You are convinced that depression itself cannot be fatal. You do not consider suicide a consequence of the illness, but rather as a choice someone has made to deal with the illness. This is arrogant, ill informed, and according to all the current medical knowledge completely wrong.

Mentally healthy people do not often commit suicide. And mental illness is an illness as real as cancer.

Yes, congratulations, way to diffuse a situation there. *applause*

Look people, I appreciate that this is a hot topic and you naturally have very strong opinions on it, but I would ask that you keep your responses civil.

It's weird for me, some days I really do wish to blow my brains out and other days I shake my head in disgust that I could think something like that.

People are often so fixated on the belief that death is inherently bad that they will restrict other people from choosing to kill themselves.

It should be legal. People should have the right. If they truly want to die, who are we to say "No, continue suffering because death is bad!"? Doctor-assisted suicide especially, as they will often be able to provide a painless and controllable method.

suicide is your personal choice.. and if you really want to kill yourself no one will stop you..

the people who get stopped are the ones who use it as a cry for attention.

and i also thin assisted suicide should be legal because idk but if i knew i was dying anyway and i was in an extreme anount of pain.. i would want to be put out of my misery

Nimbus:
What if suicide was only legal for people found to be of sound mind? I think this would be a great solution.

Welcome to Switzerland!

Never. I believe in God and His Work, and under those beliefs it is an unforgivable sin to willingly kill yourself.

I can see why.
Live, do not choose to die. There is absolutely no reason for it unless you are mentally unstable.

Suicide is an "iffy" topic for me. Under extreme circumstances, I can understand, maybe even approve of suicide.

However, I've seen the sadness a suicide can cause. I saw one of my dad's coworkers, one of the toughest men I know, reduced to a pitiable wreck when his son committed suicide. The thought of causing such pain to the people who care about you is enough to convince me that suicide should only be a person's absolute, final option that is considered, if it's an option at all.

While in a state of depression, or when you've been really messed up by drugs (as was the case with the instance I mentioned above) you're not in the right state of mind to decide whether or not you should end your life. People like this need help, not a real life "Game Over."

P.S. I'd like to contest some previous posts that implied that depression could be fatal. Depression in and of itself is not fatal. Depression does not cause death on its own; it requires the depressed to make a decision to end his/her life. As mentally messed up as a depressed person might be, they still have a say in whether or not they commit suicide. Just to help clarify what I'm trying to say: it's like making a decision using incorrect or misinterpreted information.

Easykill:
Why are there so many people here that think just because they don't agree with it, it should be illegal? It seems such a terrible irony that suicide should be illegal.

Thank you.

It shouldn't mean fuck that you disagree with suicide. Not everything you disagree with should be illegal. I disagree with the KKK existing, but I wouldn't vote against it.

people should be allowed to commit suicide, but i think they need to pay someone to clean it up and report it to the police, that way they don't bother anyone.

Spartan Bannana:
These days, there's much talk of suicide, and while I personally think of it as a terrible thing and decision, I consider it to be a person's right. They should be allowed to take their own life if they really want to. However, many people see fit to stop other people from committing suicide, and I think that this is a form of oppression. So what do all of you think, is suicide a right? Should people be allowed to commit suicide unobstructed?

we know why your avatar is that...I guess

A society that has to force its members to live must be a fun place to live.

Imagine this forum being so bad you wanna quit but you can't.
People...force...me...to...post...this.

The same is true for that jerk called God and his(?) Work.

My position, If you have No one who depends on you and you are in fact completely just useless then there should be no problem. However if you have young kids and a wife then you should indefinitely not because you aren't screwing yourself over you are saying "I don't give a fuck about anyone, they can all go fuck themselves" when you commit suicide while having defendants.

Jaythulhu:

KneeLord:
Words

More words, but nicely chilled and calmer

I can relate on some level to your experience, as a friend of mine hopped in front of a train (I wasn't present) and left his family in an exploded confetti state of chaotic despair. Kinda stung to lose him, too, although my reaction to his action was more inclined to sympathy and compassion than resentment and anger. But enough about that...

I'm not looking to scramble to compare statstics for the sake of being right on the internet. Let me simply point out a few things that are generally accepted as true and we have both more or less stated in our posts:

- Death by cancer is not death by suicide.
- Suicide is an 'active' death in that it requires a cognitive and behavioral precursor.
- Depression manifests symptoms in cognitive ability and behavioral changes (outside of actually doing brain imaging to see areas lacking in serotonin and other neurochemical activity)
- Depressed people kill themselves a lot more often than people with healthy brains. (people who are not depressed)
- Thus, suicide could be said to be a symptom of depression
- A symptom does not manifest in all cases, but often enough that it considered to be linked to a specific condition.

My last 0.02 on the subject.

KneeLord:

Jaythulhu:

KneeLord:
Words

More words, but nicely chilled and calmer

I can relate on some level to your experience, as a friend of mine hopped in front of a train (I wasn't present) and left his family in an exploded confetti state of chaotic despair. Kinda stung to lose him, too, although my reaction to his action was more inclined to sympathy and compassion than resentment and anger. But enough about that...

I'm not looking to scramble to compare statstics for the sake of being right on the internet. Let me simply point out a few things that are generally accepted as true and we have both more or less stated in our posts:

- Death by cancer is not death by suicide.
- Suicide is an 'active' death in that it requires a cognitive and behavioral precursor.
- Depression manifests symptoms in cognitive ability and behavioral changes (outside of actually doing brain imaging to see areas lacking in serotonin and other neurochemical activity)
- Depressed people kill themselves a lot more often than people with healthy brains. (people who are not depressed)
- Thus, suicide could be said to be a symptom of depression
- A symptom does not manifest in all cases, but often enough that it considered to be linked to a specific condition.

My last 0.02 on the subject.

Of course death by suicide is not death by cancer. Death by Malaria is also not death by cancer. Death by meningitis is not death by cancer. However they are all deaths caused by a disease.

What I was saying is that pretty often suicide is a consequence of a disease. Although it's manifestation is behavioural, the depressive has little to no control over it without help. Depression is a debilitating, painful, and real illness that is as serious as it is deadly. There is this tendancy though to label it as being simply a weakness upon the part of the sufferer, effectively saying they are just very very very sad and can't handle it.

I might be paraphrasing it, but a quote I heard comes to mind: "When you kill yourself, you end one life, but ruin hundreds of others. Every person you know, your family, their lives are permanently altered, but for one selfish act."

cuddly_tomato:
Of course death by suicide is not death by cancer. Death by Malaria is also not death by cancer. Death by meningitis is not death by cancer. However they are all deaths caused by a disease.

What I was saying is that pretty often suicide is a consequence of a disease. Although it's manifestation is behavioural, the depressive has little to no control over it without help. Depression is a debilitating, painful, and real illness that is as serious as it is deadly. There is this tendancy though to label it as being simply a weakness upon the part of the sufferer, effectively saying they are just very very very sad and can't handle it.

I promised myself I'd shut up about this topic, but here I am... I think you might be misinterpreting my post - I made it to address Jaythulhu's reply to my comments on the subject. I completely agree with everything you're saying - I was just stating some obvious truths that I think everyone can agree on. I've been in and out of psychiatric treatment for a decade; believe me when I say you don't have to try and convince me that depression sucks and screws with your judgement. I'm on the same page.

Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.
Don't question that, just taste it like one would an expensive wine.

Pungent, distasteful in some ways, but there is a pungent truth to it in our culture.

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

SunoffaBeach:

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

What could you possibly do that would hurt those around you more?
Sure, there's always going insane and homicidal, but suicide is much more real in today's culture. Everyone knows someone whose either committed suicide or attempted suicide. If not, then you can't fathom how much it hurts.

SunoffaBeach:

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

Let me guess: "Because it hurts all the people who knew them just because they couldn't deal with their problems. Such sucking babies need to toughen up! Everybody has problems, not everyone commits suicide! Other platitudes often spouted about the subject!"

It's pretty standard "How dare you not continue suffering for my sake!" stuff. But it raises a question: If suicide is so selfish, then how much more selfish is attempting to force someone to live because you don't like the idea of death?

WraithGadra:

SunoffaBeach:

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

Let me guess: "Because it hurts all the people who knew them just because they couldn't deal with their problems. Such sucking babies need to toughen up! Everybody has problems, not everyone commits suicide! Other platitudes often spouted about the subject!"

It's pretty standard "How dare you not continue suffering for my sake!" stuff. But it raises a question: If suicide is so selfish, then how much more selfish is attempting to force someone to live because you don't like the idea of death?

I don't think it's dislike of death so much as wanting the other person to accept their responsibilities.

Erana:

SunoffaBeach:

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

What could you possibly do that would hurt those around you more?
Sure, there's always going insane and homicidal, but suicide is much more real in today's culture. Everyone knows someone whose either committed suicide or attempted suicide. If not, then you can't fathom how much it hurts.

What would you do if the only reason to continue with your life is not to hurt others?
You don't know and neither do I nor anybody else BUT the person who is in such a situation.
So how can you judge his actions?

If suicide is made legal isnt that the best assasination tool ever? You can push people to do things they dont want so would that make it legal to push somebody to suicide?
Pretty complex problem.

Beowulf DW:

WraithGadra:

SunoffaBeach:

Erana:
Suicide is the most selfish thing someone could possibly do.

Why?

Let me guess: "Because it hurts all the people who knew them just because they couldn't deal with their problems. Such sucking babies need to toughen up! Everybody has problems, not everyone commits suicide! Other platitudes often spouted about the subject!"

It's pretty standard "How dare you not continue suffering for my sake!" stuff. But it raises a question: If suicide is so selfish, then how much more selfish is attempting to force someone to live because you don't like the idea of death?

I don't think it's dislike of death so much as wanting the other person to accept their responsibilities.

Would you complain about it being "selfish"?

IF someone wants to kill themselves, fine with me.

But look at it this way,

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you, for what? Most likely for some dumbass reason.

If you think its a gift from your Mom, and Dad, or your God(gods), its still a gift. Its your life, do what you want with it, just remember you maybe hurting, but the people that love you will be hurt, and that pain will last a lot longer.

fluffylandmine:

gmer412:
I once heard that attempted suicide carried the death penalty in a certain place.

The Land of Irony

I was going to say something equally snarky but not as well worded.

*yawns*
Another of these threads hrm?
Well, it's probably too late to say anything and have anyone notice it but in my humble opinion, there are only 2 cases where you should be allowed to commit suicide.

1) You have a terminal illness and are suffering horrifically, or maybe not a terminal illness but you'll still be suffering horrifically for the rest of your life with no chance of a cure (i.e. Full body paralysis, the kind where all you can do (and sometimes not even that) is blink).

2) You are suffering horrifically from, say, torture, and you know it's not going to stop until you die.

The point is, I could only condone suicide (and so should the law) when it's purpose is to end uncurable suffering. When it comes to depression though, no way.
Of course, this all gets pretty vague when you start trying to actually define uncurable suffering............

Hevoo:

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you...

Say this to a person whose life is so bad he wants to commit suicide and he wants to do it even more.

Hevoo:
But look at it this way,

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you, for what?

If every waking hour of that life is pure pain then you might not see it as a gift at all.

SunoffaBeach:

Hevoo:

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you...

Say this to a person whose life is so bad he wants to commit suicide and he wants to do it even more.

cuddly_tomato:

Hevoo:
But look at it this way,

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you, for what?

If every waking hour of that life is pure pain then you might not see it as a gift at all.

Both of you guys are right to a point, But here is something that you missed, Killing yourself is the most selfish thing you can do. Be it for physical pain or mental pain, you are doing it for your own ends, and not caring of anyone else but yourself. I knew people that have ended there life, one for a dumb reason, one for a really dumb reason. At first I hated them, because they were so freaking dumb, but I got on with my life.

(For someone who is going to use this against me, i beat you to it)

If you end your life, so that others may live that's a whole different can of worms.

Hevoo:

SunoffaBeach:

Hevoo:

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you...

Say this to a person whose life is so bad he wants to commit suicide and he wants to do it even more.

cuddly_tomato:

Hevoo:
But look at it this way,

You are giving up the greatest gift ever given to you, for what?

If every waking hour of that life is pure pain then you might not see it as a gift at all.

Both of you guys are right to a point, But here is something that you missed, Killing yourself is the most selfish thing you can do. Be it for physical pain or mental pain, you are doing it for your own ends, and not caring of anyone else but yourself. I knew people that have ended there life, one for a dumb reason, one for a really dumb reason. At first I hated them, because they were so freaking dumb, but I got on with my life.

(For someone who is going to use this against me, i beat you to it)

If you end your life, so that others may live that's a whole different can of worms.

So how much more selfish is it of you to want them to continue living just because you think it's so all-fire important that they do so?

Complaining that suicide is selfish is idiotic because wanting someone to live for your own reasons is just as selfish, if not more so.

If you want to take your life, fine.

Suicide isn't a problem, its a symptom of a flawed society.

Correct society, people won't be so quick to leave it. But that won't happen, so there is little we can do for those who wise to die. Can't stop them, just waste resources trying to revive them in hospitals. They'll only try again, wasting medicinal drugs and operations for those who wish to live. Cruel, but nothing else we can do with the world as it is.