Suicide i think is your right. It's your life, therefore it should be your decision when to end it, especially if suffering has become intolerable. However, this should only, i think, be allowed if the person is of sound mind. Due to the immensity of the act, one needs to take a rational, logical decision to do it, therefore there should be safeguards to prevent those with, say, depression or another treatable illness from removing themseves.
Assisting a suicide should also be decriminalised. Partners shouldn't be put in a situation whereby they face criminal prosecution for helping a terminal patient to end their suffering when they are severely restricted in movement, yet still control full control of their mental faculties. Furthermore, the state shouldn't get involved. In cases of euthanasia outlined above, it should be purely medical.
Although there would need to be new framework to work with the Hippocratic oath, it's better than the government getting involved. If the state were to, then it would lead to a slippery slope of people who feel a burden on society feeling pressured to remove themselves from it.
I think suicide is weak, it shows that you are not mentally strong enough to cope with bad things. Well, guess what, everyone hast to cope with bad things and not everyone commits suicide.
i dont think of it as a right to be honnest it is a choice to be made even though i would SUGGEST to the person wanted to commit it other wise. I wont stop some one but neither will i care much for their deat, its like a video game just the game over is harder to get to. You get a game over when you give up and suicide usualy means this. So i wont stop some one from doing it but neither will i mourn for them if they succeed in the act
Mr. Squirrel: I think suicide is weak, it shows that you are not mentally strong enough to cope with bad things. Well, guess what, everyone hast to cope with bad things and not everyone commits suicide.
So? Not everyone is a clone of each other? And even if they were they'd -still- have vastly different life experiences.
And pray tell, how does one become 'mentally strong'? You are giving free will far far too much credit. Even with our own minds and distinct personalities, we are still subject to all the chemical reactions in our own bodies.
Fronken: I have this little saying: The government should NOT control our bodies, meaning we can do whatever the f*** we want with it, its YOUR body, not theirs, so yeah, if you dont like your life, you have every single right to take it away.
Also on topic, everyone should have full right over their own body, if they want to destroy it, its their choice, if they want to pump it full of alcohol and drugs, its their choice, as long as they dont hurt anyone else physically, it should be legal.
That being said, i dont like suicide, i think its a bad way out of life, and it really scars those close to you, but when it comes to your rights, you should have the right to do it.
Total freedom over your own body should be something everyone thinks of as obvious.
Every right comes with a responsibility. If you can't uphold that responsibility, the right is taken away from you. What would be the responsibility of those wanting to end their life?
To further prod at your argument... From the amount of 300kg plus people lining up for a few large meals at maccas to tide them over 'til dinner, or the scrawny junkie laying in the gutter of a busy city street, people can't be trusted to have total control over their body. Besides which, everything you do has an impact on the others around you. How can you have total control over yourself without impugning on the rights of every other individual out there?
So your telling me that if you misstreat your own body someone else has the right to interfere?, i honestly dont see how your own body is anyone else's buisness, yeah, misstreating it does impact others, but so does everything else you do, you nor anyone else have any right to control other peoples bodies imo, cant believe im actually having this discussion, i find it sick to think that there's actually people out there wanting to infringe on something so basic as the freedom of your own body.
So? I have a theory: No law should be formed with the assumption that it'll be broken. It dosn't change anything and messes up the ppricipal of law.
So then what do you think your law will be achieving? It fails as a deterrant and there are no benefits by it existing. Much like current anti-suicide laws they only exist token gestures of morality.
It would allow sane people to kill themselves if they want to. +1 to freedom.
Erm... sane people can already kill themselves. Nobody needs permission to do it.
I'd be too wimpy to commit suicide even if I wanted to, unless I had a gun or a bomb, that probably wouldn't hurt too much. But anyhow, if you want to, suicide should be legal if done by a doctor who checks you over, talks with you than puts you to sleep and while you're sleeping, administers a painless killing drug.
i know this will sound cruel, but sometimes i think suicide would be an awesome solution for some people, i mean the assholes who think they're the shit. on the other hand some people just have a bad case of manic depression and end their life before having the chance of curing, throwing away their chance of having a great life.
it should be allowed. psychiatrists just drug people up or force them to have ECT (they can sign a document that allows them to do it with out permission saying the patient is a danger to themselves and cannot decide for themselves)
as hemmingway said on the subject "Well, what is the sense of ruining my head and erasing my memory, which is my capital, and putting me out of business? It was a brilliant cure but we lost the patient...."
I agree really. Although trying to talk someone out of suicide is fine, the few cases where people are restrained from committing the deed, that is a form of oppression. Hell, one could say that it was a form of fascism.
People have the right to take their own lives, period. It doesn't matter how much they want to. Life or death is the only fundamental alternative facing us and the choice to pursue life or give up and die is all that gives meaning to our actions and choices.
You are free to attempt to persuade people not to choose death, but it is not right to attempt to force them to choose life unless they are psychotic (not neurotic, PSYCHOTIC) and their mental illness can be controlled in some such way that they are potentially lucid.
I don't have a problem with the concept of suicide, after all we have the right to live our own lives, and as a result of that, we have the choice to, if we so decide, to end it too. However, what I do have a problem with is the fact that so many people do not take into account the consequences of their actions. For instance, who cleans up the mess, the shock of finding the body? A doctor I know and have met on a number of occasions wrote morphine prescriptions for her brother, cashed the prescriptions and used the morphine to end her own life, which placed a number of restrictions on the access of these painkilling drugs, hurting the people who really need it. In short, it's the often selfish nature of it that I dislike.
I couldn't help but lol at the fact that this thread is about suicide and what your avatar is of:D. But seriously(or not in this case), their body, they can do what they want with it, same applies to abortion.
cuddly_tomato: Suicide can't be a consequence of depression?
And depression isn't an illness?
And I am ignorant and uninformed?
Not ignorant, just maybe slightly uninformed. Depression can play negatively in many ways on the mind, casing you to do things you wouldn't do othewise. It's a worse thing than people give it credit for, my mother suffered with it when I lost my father.
What annoys me is these 'ooh, the only illnesses in the world are cancer and the flu' people who don't believe mental illnesses exist. The brain is a VERY comlpex thing, as you all know, which is succeptable (sp?) to damage at any slight occurrence, and even the slightest thing can trigger mental defects such as manic depression.
It's this that leads the law to say that suicide is illigal, because depression alters your state of mind, and the way some politicians and doctors see it, you may not be fit to make your own decisions.
I personally think they are incredibly wrong, because if you are in such a state of mind where suicide is your only option, no matter how altered your mind is, you still are in this awful position where you want to die. Yourself or not yourself, if you feel you NEED to die, I think you should be allowed, the only variables should be single parents with kids etc, in which case the most support should be offered, for the needs of the parent and child.
If the person in question was found to be of sound mind (that is, free from mental illness) then why not? Why should someone else force their views on someone else. The thing that changes this view is when they do suffer from a mental illness.
I also think that euthanasia, for those with terminal diseases and those in a large amount of pain due to it, is right.
Mr. Squirrel: I think suicide is weak, it shows that you are not mentally strong enough to cope with bad things. Well, guess what, everyone hast to cope with bad things and not everyone commits suicide.
Well come on, if you were told 'you're going to die in 6 months, it's going to be slow, and agonisingly painful throughout'. What would you do? Because living for the sake of living is just pointless. There are no XBL achievments at the end of our life for those who didn't kill themeslves (as far as I am aware), and I'd rather go quickly than go through half a year of pain.
cuddly_tomato: Suicide can't be a consequence of depression?
And depression isn't an illness?
And I am ignorant and uninformed?
Not ignorant, just maybe slightly uninformed. Depression can play negatively in many ways on the mind, casing you to do things you wouldn't do othewise. It's a worse thing than people give it credit for, my mother suffered with it when I lost my father.
What annoys me is these 'ooh, the only illnesses in the world are cancer and the flu' people who don't believe mental illnesses exist. The brain is a VERY comlpex thing, as you all know, which is succeptable (sp?) to damage at any slight occurrence, and even the slightest thing can trigger mental defects such as manic depression.
It's this that leads the law to say that suicide is illigal, because depression alters your state of mind, and the way some politicians and doctors see it, you may not be fit to make your own decisions.
I personally think they are incredibly wrong, because if you are in such a state of mind where suicide is your only option, no matter how altered your mind is, you still are in this awful position where you want to die. Yourself or not yourself, if you feel you NEED to die, I think you should be allowed, the only variables should be single parents with kids etc, in which case the most support should be offered, for the needs of the parent and child.
Completely agree. Read the post before that one where I was called up the wall for effectively saying what you just did. :)
Depression is a real illness. Same as cancer. And the symptoms of that illness can be just as deadly. They aren't "cowards" when this happens, they are sick.
Mr. Squirrel: I think suicide is weak, it shows that you are not mentally strong enough to cope with bad things. Well, guess what, everyone hast to cope with bad things and not everyone commits suicide.
Well come on, if you were told 'you're going to die in 6 months, it's going to be slow, and agonisingly painful throughout'. What would you do? Because living for the sake of living is just pointless. There are no XBL achievments at the end of our life for those who didn't kill themeslves (as far as I am aware), and I'd rather go quickly than go through half a year of pain.
I would say the exact opposite of the original poster quoted above. Do you know how bad shit has to get for someone to say enough is enough? to leave behind a wife, children & friends? Somebody I know chose to take his own life & weak is not a word I would use to describe what he did. Sad & desperate but in no way weak. Back on track.....if someone really has had enough, then yeah, let them end it. There should be ways of doing it with dignity rather than an overdose or hanging though. The law just forces people to resort to desperate, horrible methods.
gmer412: One big opposition to suicide comes from religion. In Christianity, suicide is like throwing away a gift that someone had given you. God gave you life, and it's not your right to take it away. That said, I'm not religious. I think that the ONLY time it should be allowed is when someone has a terminal disease/condition. Or possibly something that can't be treated and causes excruciating pain.
STOP EVEN REFERENCING RELIGION, YOU ARE FUELING THE ESCAPIST HOLY WAR AND NEED TO BE REMOVED.
I was not aware of an "escapist holy war." Is one going on? And we don't have permission to even talk about religion? I'm confused.
On topic, suicide doesn't just hurt you. It hurts your friends, your family, anyone connected to you personally (aside from a mortal enemy or something). If you're in the desert with no friends or family, then whatever. But, otherwise, you have to think about the consequences. I think it's a bad idea because there are always things in life that you'll miss if you do it. Legally, I don't think it should be illegal, but there should be some requirement to seek treatment for a disease(including depression - it's treatable) if you have one or counseling or something. Euthanasia's fine, though.
cuddly_tomato: Suicide can't be a consequence of depression?
And depression isn't an illness?
And I am ignorant and uninformed?
Not ignorant, just maybe slightly uninformed. Depression can play negatively in many ways on the mind, casing you to do things you wouldn't do othewise. It's a worse thing than people give it credit for, my mother suffered with it when I lost my father.
What annoys me is these 'ooh, the only illnesses in the world are cancer and the flu' people who don't believe mental illnesses exist. The brain is a VERY comlpex thing, as you all know, which is succeptable (sp?) to damage at any slight occurrence, and even the slightest thing can trigger mental defects such as manic depression.
It's this that leads the law to say that suicide is illigal, because depression alters your state of mind, and the way some politicians and doctors see it, you may not be fit to make your own decisions.
I personally think they are incredibly wrong, because if you are in such a state of mind where suicide is your only option, no matter how altered your mind is, you still are in this awful position where you want to die. Yourself or not yourself, if you feel you NEED to die, I think you should be allowed, the only variables should be single parents with kids etc, in which case the most support should be offered, for the needs of the parent and child.
Completely agree. Read the post before that one where I was called up the wall for effectively saying what you just did. :)
Depression is a real illness. Same as cancer. And the symptoms of that illness can be just as deadly. They aren't "cowards" when this happens, they are sick.
Oh haha, sorry, didn't see that xD. But yeah, more should be done to help these people. Anyone who says it's cowardly has clearly never been in a suicidal state of mind.
*EDIT* And for the record, I reported the guy that had a go at you. There's no need for him to react like that in a debate where you made some incredibly valid points, debates are about intelectualism and civilised opposision of opinion, not spouting insults because you can't win. :)
Mr. Squirrel: I think suicide is weak, it shows that you are not mentally strong enough to cope with bad things. Well, guess what, everyone hast to cope with bad things and not everyone commits suicide.
Whenever this topic gets brought up, someone espouses this point of view. Mscherbatskaya summed up the rebuttal to this argument perfectly in this post:
mshcherbatskaya: It seems to me that there is some misunderstanding here about the nature of abuse. It's not like a person gets called a douche, runs off in tears, and kills themselves, and there's a difference between the generalized level of bullshit generated by the human race and abuse.
Here, I'll make an analogy.
Every gas tank gets a little water in it. The gas that comes out of the pump has a certain degree of moisture, there is cooling and the condensation it creates, etc.
Some gas tanks are more vulnerable to moisture than other for various reasons, like the gas tank on my motorcycle. Because my gas tank is exposed, rather than being wrapped inside a bunch of sheet metal, more water gets into it. Add to that the fact that I don't have a garage to keep it in and that I live in a part of the country where it literally rains a statistical average of 3 days out of 4, and it's not surprising that my bike has more moisture related problems than your car.
So let's say water is human shitheadedness, your car is an average internet user and my bike is someone who is a bit more sensitive and emo.
OK, so yes, we all agree than everyone has to deal with some water in their tank, and some people just collect more water than others. But just because everyone has to deal with this doesn't make it OK to deliberately try and pour water into someone's tank. A person who does this might justify this by saying, "Well, you should keep your car in a garage, then." Sure, my car or bike would be in better shape if I could keep it in a garage, but you still should not try to put water in my tank, fucker! I don't care if I keep my bike parked on the street with the gas-cap unlocked. You should not put water in my tank! You think I need to learn a lesson about keeping my tank shut tight? Fine, point taken. Let it rain and don't put water in my tank!
Weakness is not in and of itself justification for attack, and anyone who subscribes to such idiot social darwinism needs to a.) quit bitching about how girls reject them, because by your own logic, this demonstrates you are unfit to breed, b.) consider the fact that, no matter how big and tough you are, there is someone in the world who is both willing and capable of kicking your ass in some arena or other. Just because you have managed to make it this far without encountering them is no reason to congratulate yourself, and c.) remember that you are only one car crash, one illness, one disaster away from joining the ranks of The Weak.
I would suggest that a great many of the people who say, "if you let yourself be attacked, then you deserve it," are themselves assholes defending what they believe to be their right to be assholes. Everyone has the right to be a flawed human being who sometimes hurts other flawed human beings, but nobody has the right to be an asshole.
I would further suggest that this "toughening up" response so many people seem to espouse is in fact the genesis of a great many assholes. If "toughening up" entails the amputation of empathy, then we aren't creating general social competance, we are creating ambient sociopathy. And besides, isn't it one of the general principles of civil society that people shouldn't have to defend themselves from attacks that shouldn't be happening in the first place? After all, this is why we have laws punishing criminal behavior, including harassment, libel, and slander, and have groups of people dedicated to enforcing these laws.
For god's sake people, quit justifying asshole behavior and quit congratulating yourselves for allowing such behavior to be accepted as inevitable. Rain is inevitable, a jackass with a water jug and a funnel is not.
Jaythulhu: On a more serious note, suicide is nothing but a selfish and cowardly way out, and I'll never have any respect or sympathy for the people who choose it. They've got no care or concern about what they're doing to anyone else, only themselves.
A lot of people with little to no experience or understanding of depression say things like this.
Depression is an illness. Not a life choice. Suicide can be a consequence of that illness. Would you go to a cancer sufferer and tell them that dying is a "selfish and cowardly way out"?
What a load of horseshit. For the record, dying from cancer is not suicide, it's being killed by a disease. They're about as similar as a fart and hamburger. Death by suicide is NOT the end result of depression. Oh, and by the way, depression is entirely treatable and curable. Funny that. To not seek help and to go off yourself because you've got a chemical imbalance in your brain is cowardly, selfish, and plenty of other things besides.
For you to even try and link the death of a cancer sufferer with some selfish prat who commits suicide is pathetic, you miserable little worm. Cancer sufferers fight with every ounce of their being to try and live. Suiciders don't give a fuck about anyone other than themselves, and are not worthy of being in the same afterlife. It's ignorant, uninformed people trying to make excuses that spout bullshit like yours.
Steady on! Someone might mistake you for a bigot with a grudge against the mentally ill. ;)
For what its worth, your opinions as a layman are regarded false and untrue by psychiatric professionals and the general community of medical practicioners. Plain ol' unipolar depression claims more lives annually than many forms of cancer, which (unlike depression) can theoretically be fully cured if caught early and treated aggressively. While it could be argued that combinations of Cogitive Behavioral Therapy in conjunction with Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (meds) can successfully treat and even "cure" depression, success is highly variable based on the individuals biochemical response to treatment: it is often hampered by contraindications or intolerable side effects. Progress is being made, but compared to other schools of medicine, psychiatry is still in it's infancy, respectively.
You are correct in saying that depression does not inherrently mandate suicide as an inevitable outcome. However, the same is true of cancer, which in many cases nowadays is no longer a death sentance. The obvious difference between the two is that the symptoms of depression are behavioral, whereas the symptoms of cancer are physical, though both can exist invisibly.
According to all the science, research and opinions of medical professionals, you are entirely wrong in your statement. That said, given how vehemently you emphasize your sweeping generalizations with swearing, I doubt this post, or any other evidence provided will dissuade you from running your mouth.
Jaythulhu: On a more serious note, suicide is nothing but a selfish and cowardly way out, and I'll never have any respect or sympathy for the people who choose it. They've got no care or concern about what they're doing to anyone else, only themselves.
A lot of people with little to no experience or understanding of depression say things like this.
Depression is an illness. Not a life choice. Suicide can be a consequence of that illness. Would you go to a cancer sufferer and tell them that dying is a "selfish and cowardly way out"?
What a load of horseshit. For the record, dying from cancer is not suicide, it's being killed by a disease. They're about as similar as a fart and hamburger. Death by suicide is NOT the end result of depression. Oh, and by the way, depression is entirely treatable and curable. Funny that. To not seek help and to go off yourself because you've got a chemical imbalance in your brain is cowardly, selfish, and plenty of other things besides.
For you to even try and link the death of a cancer sufferer with some selfish prat who commits suicide is pathetic, you miserable little worm. Cancer sufferers fight with every ounce of their being to try and live. Suiciders don't give a fuck about anyone other than themselves, and are not worthy of being in the same afterlife. It's ignorant, uninformed people trying to make excuses that spout bullshit like yours.
Steady on! Someone might mistake you for a bigot with a grudge against the mentally ill. ;)
For what its worth, your opinions as a layman are regarded false and untrue by psychiatric professionals and the general community of medical practicioners. Plain ol' unipolar depression claims more lives annually than many forms of cancer, which (unlike depression) can be cured if caught early and treated aggressively. While it could be argued that combinations of Cogitive Behavioral Therapy in conjunction with Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (meds) can successfully treat and even "cure" depression, success is highly variable based on the individuals biochemical response to treatment: it is often hampered by contraindications or intolerable side effects. Progress is being made, but compared to other schools of medicine, psychiatry is still in it's infancy, respectively.
You are correct in saying that depression does not inherrently mandate suicide as an inevitable outcome. However, the same is true of cancer, which in many cases nowadays is no longer a death sentance. The obvious difference between the two is that the symptoms of depression are behavioral, whereas the symptoms of cancer are physical, though both can exist invisibly.
According to all the science, research and opinions of medical professionals, you are entirely wrong in your statement. That said, given how vehemently you emphasize your sweeping generalizations with curses, I doubt this post, or any other evidence provided will dissuade you from running your mouth.
Judging by the crazy persons last sentence I would say they have a religious belief. I think they are mad at having to share their magical afterlife with depressed people. I also love the "cancer sufferers fight with every ounce" shite. I take it crazy person has met all sufferers of terminal cancer & not one of them had had enough & wanted to end their life? Look up ignorant & uninformed in a dictionary, there will be one word to describe both... Jaythulhu.
gmer412: One big opposition to suicide comes from religion. In Christianity, suicide is like throwing away a gift that someone had given you. God gave you life, and it's not your right to take it away. That said, I'm not religious. I think that the ONLY time it should be allowed is when someone has a terminal disease/condition. Or possibly something that can't be treated and causes excruciating pain.
STOP EVEN REFERENCING RELIGION, YOU ARE FUELING THE ESCAPIST HOLY WAR AND NEED TO BE REMOVED.
I was not aware of an "escapist holy war." Is one going on? And we don't have permission to even talk about religion? I'm confused.
On topic, suicide doesn't just hurt you. It hurts your friends, your family, anyone connected to you personally (aside from a mortal enemy or something). If you're in the desert with no friends or family, then whatever. But, otherwise, you have to think about the consequences. I think it's a bad idea because there are always things in life that you'll miss if you do it. Legally, I don't think it should be illegal, but there should be some requirement to seek treatment for a disease(including depression - it's treatable) if you have one or counseling or something. Euthanasia's fine, though.
Escapist Holy War is the name I've given to the fuckloads of religous debate around here lately
Eh, I thought the objective of guns and bombs were to hurt.. A LOT.
Actually, they are made to kill usually ;)
If you shoot yourself anywhere but a few vital places, you will take a very long time to die. You will bleed out or not die at all. Bombs create shrapnel, yes? Unless you are on top of the bomb (searing pain from explosion) you'll get shrapnel in you (which I'm sure is pretty painful) and then die. So, yes. They kill instantly if used exactly correctly, but usually it's pretty painful.
Well, people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; should it be revised to life (or lack thereof) liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I don't think so.
If you shoot yourself anywhere but a few vital places, you will take a very long time to die. You will bleed out or not die at all. Bombs create shrapnel, yes? Unless you are on top of the bomb (searing pain from explosion) you'll get shrapnel in you (which I'm sure is pretty painful) and then die. So, yes. They kill instantly if used exactly correctly, but usually it's pretty painful.
True, but were did I say they were absolutly painless. Most weapons aren't designed to make the victims have a quick painless death, just to kill one way or another. Simply being shot in the leg or arm can easily be fatal if not attened to quickly, from either shock or blood-loss, not to mention infections. Shrapnel is used to make a bigger kill radius, again, to cause more death. Only a few weapons are made only for injuring, like tasers, but even those can be fatal as you may have heard in the news lately. Either way, my opinion on suicide remains unchanged, and my work here done.
Suicide can't be a consequence of depression?
And depression isn't an illness?
And I am ignorant and uninformed?
And you are eligible to vote?
Suddenly a lot of things make sense.