First of all, I'm sorry if something similar has already been posted: I searched under "benefit fraud" and "benefit theft", but found nothing.

I'd like the escapist's view on a moral dilemma I've been turning over in my mind. I'm a bartender, and we have this customer. He claims quite considerable sums of money in benefit, despite having a very healthy bank balance. He takes six or seven holidays a year, and he's going to New Zealand today for two months.

Now this customer, let's call him Alan, since it's his name; he's an odious little prick, and causes no end of distress to the barmaids who work with me. Tonight, he asked one of my co-workers to call him a cab; he needed to be at the airport for 11pm, so he asked her to call it for 10:40pm. It didn't turn up on time, and he demanded that she make sure that he had a taxi to the airport straight away, in a very rude manner. She called him another cab, and when it arrived, he offered the barmaid his hand, as if to shake hands. She took his hand, and he pulled her towards him, and tried to kiss her.

Now as far as I'm concerned, he's barred. My boss is not keen on barring people, though, so I might have to settle for an apology and a commitment not to do the same again. But he has told me, on previous occasions, that he's a benefit cheat, and seems quite proud of the fact.

Now, I hate benefit fraud. I work for a reasonable amount of money, and I'm comfortable enough; but it really upsets me when I see someone taking several holidays a year on taxpayers' money. On the other hand, I understand what it's like to get caught in the 'habit' of not working. I did it myself for a couple of months, but I made the choice not to claim benefits while I was doing it.

Anyway, some background to Alan. He was a psychiatric nurse, but lost his job when he became an alcoholic. He'd turn up to work drunk, or get drunk while he was there. The NHS decided, rather than risk the tribunal for sacking him, to give him a payoff to leave.

He's a deeply unhappy person; he's lonely, and no-one likes him. He's also been diagnosed with liver disease, and been told if he doesn't stop drinking, he'll die pretty soon. I do feel sorry for him, but he's a deeply unpleasant person.

Now, I never reported him for benefit fraud. My rationale was that I wouldn't report someone who I liked, I'd just think they were an arse for doing it. So I shouldn't report this guy, just because I can't stand him. It'd just be vindictive.

But one of my co-workers, not the girl who he upset tonight, but someone else who was working, after I had told her about his lifestyle, is going to report him. Without his money, I consider it a serious possibility he'll kill himself. I could probably stop her if I tried, and I don't want a corpse on my conscience, or hers.

So, fellow escapists, what should I do?

Report away my good man

the dude needs help. alcahol counciling for one thing, not to mention he could stand to learn a few social skills. yes, he has a problem, and yes, he might be sick, but his disease has started breaking the law, sexual harrasment and who knows what else when he's not going into the bar

you gotta do something, its not vindictive, its the right thing to do

I'd report him
There's no other way his crimes and/or issues will come to any kind of light

Human life has no intrinsic value. Unless you get something out of this person's continued existence, why should you care?

Personally, I'd consider reporting him doing a favour to the world.

jim_doki:
Report away my good man

the dude needs help. alcahol counciling for one thing, not to mention he could stand to learn a few social skills. yes, he has a problem, and yes, he might be sick, but his disease has started breaking the law, sexual harrasment and who knows what else when he's not going into the bar

you gotta do something, its not vindictive, its the right thing to do

ya, if he is abusing a Function made to help people in need, the money he is using can be sent to someone Else who REALLY needs it, he also needs to get himself help, he is drinking himself to death, he needs help,

crimson5pheonix:
Well, another thing I wish to know, is his liver disease terminal and incurable?

Well, I'm only going on what he's told me, but if he stopped drinking, he could be okay. But he's unwilling to do so. He is drinking less though. To give some background, though, he lacks social skills, he smells bad, he'll offend people without realizing he's doing it. Now, a rational person would take a bath and try to be less offensive, but he's delusional. The barmaid who he tried to kiss, he's written her love notes, despite her having told him that she has a boyfriend, and those notes, they're sad. He seems like someone who was a moderately intelligent person once; but the alcohol has left him boring and unpleasant. And I suppose that's where my dilemma lies.

perhaps a stay in a Hospital with the care of a shrink may be helpful for him too, or a Correctional facility of some sort if his actions cause him to be put in jail, he could get counciling in either case

Yes I think you should report him. Especially if he is causing grief at your work place. Why not report someone who is a problem on multiple levels?

yeah i'd say report him, he'll be tossed in jail probly for it

DalekJaas:
Yes I think you should report him. Especially if he is causing grief at your work place. Why not report someone who is a problem on multiple levels?

Well, as far as the problems he causes me and my barstaff, I can deal with them separately; if my boss stops me barring him, I can still make his time here very unpleasant. I also feel some duty to protect the people I work with though, I'm supposed to be in charge of them, and I don't think they should have to put up with that. As a supplemental question, if someone should report him, shouldn't it be me? The girl who wants to report him is twenty years old, and I'm thirty; I've been bartending for twelve years, and have had several customers die, always because of their own choices. Maybe I could cope with the consequences of my actions better than her...

yeah, its not her fault if she reports him and he dies

under any circumstances

anywhere

EVER

Nobody likes a tattle-tale. Leave the dude alone. I work too, and if somebody, even an asshole, is smart enough to take advantage of the system, don't ruin it for him. It will probably catch up with him anyways sooner or later.

Report him if you like, it's up to you.

However, don't blame him for taking advantage of the moronic way this dictatorship is run. If you submit to a government that skims off your earnings to distribute among the lazy, you only have yourself to blame.

I don't work because if I did, half my income would go towards supporting the disabled, single parents, national defence and assorted other things I disapprove of. If you offer to enable me to refuse to work with minimal inconvenience to myself - i.e. my nice warm flat, my free money, the assorted other benefits that come with the free money (free/cheaper insulation and the like) - I'm going to accept, of course.

I say report.

Molikroth:
Report him if you like, it's up to you.

However, don't blame him for taking advantage of the moronic way this dictatorship is run. If you submit to a government that skims off your earnings to distribute among the lazy, you only have yourself to blame.

I don't work because if I did, half my income would go towards supporting the disabled, single parents, national defence and assorted other things I disapprove of. If you offer to enable me to refuse to work with minimal inconvenience to myself - i.e. my nice warm flat, my free money, the assorted other benefits that come with the free money (free/cheaper insulation and the like) - I'm going to accept, of course.

That is just so wrong...

I would rather do society a favour and work in a job I like.If everyone started thinking like you, where would our economy be... oh.

EDIT:Also, I would gladly pay my taxes, I approve of my Canadian government more or else. (Schools, police , firefighters ,and hospitals are still doing what they should. And our troops need our support.)

As far as I can see, he is mentally ill, and an alcoholic, so at least in the UK, he'd get some form of benefits still, while the state and his doctor would try to help him get himself sorted out.

From that point of view, you're doing him even more good by reporting him, and barring him, well it won't stop him drinking, but if your bar is his favourite, it may make him cut down some, and even if not, you can feel safe that you did what you could to help him, despite him doing all he could to make you not want to.

You've done nothing wrong, and I don't feel taking that step would be wrong either, I feel you're stuck with the option of doing him some good, but knowing it'll be hard on him.

Again, it is from the UK perspective, but there's a form of welfare in most countries is there not? Surely he'd be able to get some short term help at least.

Phantom2595 - If everyone started thinking like me, society wouldn't exist in its current state. Now explain why that's a bad thing.

EDIT: Nilcypher - I disapprove of all involuntary taxation. I don't like children and couldn't care less if they grow up without an education. I don't care if some guy in a wheelchair can't get into his home without a private elevator, and so on. Why should I pay for any of these things?

Molikroth:
Phantom2595 - If everyone started thinking like me, society wouldn't exist in its current state. Now explain why that's a bad thing.

i got a better plan. lets not start a flame war here.

kailsar:

crimson5pheonix:
Well, another thing I wish to know, is his liver disease terminal and incurable?

Well, I'm only going on what he's told me, but if he stopped drinking, he could be okay. But he's unwilling to do so. He is drinking less though. To give some background, though, he lacks social skills, he smells bad, he'll offend people without realizing he's doing it. Now, a rational person would take a bath and try to be less offensive, but he's delusional. The barmaid who he tried to kiss, he's written her love notes, despite her having told him that she has a boyfriend, and those notes, they're sad. He seems like someone who was a moderately intelligent person once; but the alcohol has left him boring and unpleasant. And I suppose that's where my dilemma lies.

Wow, he reminds me of a situation in my school. Lets call the 3 people in this situation B, M, and E. M is a girl, the others are guys. M and E are close friends, nothing romantic. The both vaguely know B. However, it has come to mine and E's attention that B likes M. Like, a lot. Like, obsessed. We know he has no chance with her for several reasons, not the least of which that she barely knows him. One day, B goes up to M and tells her things like "I love you" and "I would die for you" and other equally creepy stuff(at least from an acquaintance). She puts him down gently. About a week later, E comments to B "Oh, you still go to this school?" as a joke because he hadn't seen him in a while. B tries to start a fight with E. Did I mention that E is a blackbelt in some martial art or another? Anyway, B's like "I didn't kill you before because that would have made M unhappy, but I can now." E feels bad for him, and doesn't want to kick his ass, so he talks his way out. Yesterday, last I talked to her, M had just gotten a gift from B, and hadn't opened it. Interesting, the kind of shit that can happen in my school.

Report him immediately; his liver disease, alcoholism, tax fraud, sexual harrasment and generally unpleasant behaviour are all his own fualt so make him pay for his own decisions.

Oh and anyone that thinks that they shouldn't pay taxes at least try to understand that without taxes the government can't function and without a government the world will turn into mad max.

I'm the other way, I do believe we should pay a certain amount in taxes to keep the people on the bottom rung at least fed, clothed, housed, and healthy.

You never know when you could get hit by a truck and be crippled and unable to work, or something happens that shatters your mind and leaves you virtually housebound, just because you don't need something now, doesn't mean everything's perfect forever, Government and taxes are just an enforced insurance policy, giving you some protection if it all goes wrong.

Sure we all think the Government are doing it wrong, and could do better with less money, but they're what we have, and its better than no system.

I still say report him, if he's pulling in the kinda cash you're talking about, he's using it to kill himself and he's screwing the system, which will cater for him honestly.

Nilcypher - I live alone, thanks to "housing benefit". It pays my rent for me as long as I'm in receipt of another benefit, i.e. Income Support or Jobseeker's Allowance.

If the government is stupid enough to offer these things, I'm going to accept it. If the government didn't offer these things, I'd live illegally (i.e. working and not reporting income) for as long as I could get away with it, then end up in a similar situation to my current one - living for free on the taxpayer's money, just in a smaller room with less freedom to choose my own meals.

This is why I refuse to work. I disapprove of prison, and of the very benefits I'm living off right now. That's not to say I couldn't get by just fine if the government stopped these silly bleeding-heart handouts.

Molikroth:
Nilcypher - I live alone, thanks to "housing benefit". It pays my rent for me as long as I'm in receipt of another benefit, i.e. Income Support or Jobseeker's Allowance.

If the government is stupid enough to offer these things, I'm going to accept it. If the government didn't offer these things, I'd live illegally (i.e. working and not reporting income) for as long as I could get away with it, then end up in a similar situation to my current one - living for free on the taxpayer's money, just in a smaller room with less freedom to choose my own meals.

This is why I refuse to work. I disapprove of prison, and of the very benefits I'm living off right now. That's not to say I couldn't get by just fine if the government stopped these silly bleeding-heart handouts.

1) picking fights with a mod is hardly a great way to get ahead here

b) why cant you get a job and pay rent, therefore stopping your need for the income?

jim_doki:
1) picking fights with a mod is hardly a great way to get ahead here

b) why cant you get a job and pay rent, therefore stopping your need for the income?

Jim - go the hell away. There's a difference between discussing something and "picking a fight" or a "flame war".

For future reference, "2" follows "1" in most systems of counting.

I could get a job and pay rent - I'd like to do so. However, getting a job would mean the government would skim off my earnings. If I earn £5 an hour and tax comes to £50 a month off my total wages, ten hours a month, of MY life, are going into things like orphanages and prisons - things I disapprove of.

1) so, you dissaprove of working for a living because people who work for a living pay for things people need while you just sit back and collect money from people who work for a living? im very confused.

b) i refute your system of counting and substitute my own

3) why do you object to prisons and orphanages?

I don't disapprove of working for a living. I disapprove of the government robbing you of whatever it feels like. As I said, I dislike children. It gives me a kick to think of your future children suffering thanks to my wasteful ways today. Why, then, should part of my income fund things like recycling to preserve resources for them? Note, that's an example. There are many, many more things taxes go toward that I disapprove of.

My objection to prisons is that I don't consider anyone to have the right to say "murder/rape/stealing is wrong because many of us say so. Therefore, you will refrain from them or be locked up".

My objection to orphanages is simply cost. I don't want my money funding children's lives.

...well, i asked a question, I got an answer

this, of course, leads into the next questions...

1)Why do you hate children?

b) Are you saying you condone murder/rape/stealing on the basis that everyone else thinks it's wrong?
is there anything you DO find abborhent and in need of punishment?

3) I still need help getting into your line of thinking on the its ok not to work thing. you do understand that my work pays you, which essentially makes you my employee?

I hate children because they're annoying. People consider children sacred and so on, and indoctrinate their values into them and they grow up none the wiser. Perhaps it'd be fairer to say I hate children I have no direct influence over in order to counterbalance the effect society in general has - i.e. to impart on them a sense of neutrality and self. This is why I have time for my eight-month old nephew; I'm in a position to help him grow up outside the strictures normal children have.

I don't consider anything to "need punishment" in the sense that it is objectively wrong because there is no one set of morals that is correct and true. Morals are opinions and rapists are as entitled to the opinion "rape is acceptable" as you are "candy tastes good". This of course continues on up to the point where governments treat their morals as objective ones and lock up "criminals". I find this "abhorrent" because I dislike lies and the biggest lie in existence is that governments have some "right" to do what they do. Governments are mere embodiments of "might is right".

Your work pays the government, whether you agree to or not, making you a slave. The government pays for my food, well-being and lodgings, making me a pet. There is no direct connection between us (even assuming you're a UK citizen).