This has probably already been said, but the original true reason for Christmas was the birth of jesus. But nowadays, it's for family, friends and giving, which certainly has not been lost except for some idiots blinded by sales that they forget about human lives.
ThePlasmatizer: Yes we have lost sight of the meaning of Christmas, which is to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Technically Christmas as I recall, was the appropriation of several pagan festivals by Early Christianity in order to promote acceptance of their religion. As far as I know Jesus was REALLY born sometime in July by current reckoning and December 25th is really the birthday of Mithras.
If you want to dig WAAAY back, what we think of as Christmas is a Winter Solstice festival. There are lots of conflicting opinions on this though.
You're totally correct which is why Christ and Christmas are both totally coincidental right?
The early church placed Jesus' birth on a date that was already celebrated in the hopes of encouraging more to join in(and also to avoid prejudice). In reality, Christ was born somewhere between May and July, we aren't really sure.
Christmas' meaning has continuiously evolved throughout the past few centuries. Late Celtic groups in Britain celebrated it even with no knowledge of Christ being involved. It was banned in Puritan England for various reasons. Several religious groups now don't celebrate it partially because of doctrine, but also because of the sketchy history behind it. The name may make it appear to be 'Christ's mass' but its backstory for the most part disagrees.
It is Christ's Mass, it was placed there like you said by the church. We celebrate Christmas now not the Pagan Winter Festival.
It's undeniable Christmas is a celebration of Christ's birth regardless of cultural changes and founding history.
Wrong again genius not. The Christians celebrate it that way. And I repeat, the Christians. Corporations, non christian that is, do not market it that way. No one I can name within a 50 mile radius (and I know people up to 100 miles away) celebrates it like that. Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. The Christian Christmas is a lie. Thus Christians celebrate a lie. CONTRADICTION FROM HELL! SO! As long as Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ (it's definitely not Christ's Mass, as the Nazarene was Jewish and they don't hold mass to my knowledge) then you are celebrating a proven lie and you are sinning. BLAM!
ThePlasmatizer: Yes we have lost sight of the meaning of Christmas, which is to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Technically Christmas as I recall, was the appropriation of several pagan festivals by Early Christianity in order to promote acceptance of their religion. As far as I know Jesus was REALLY born sometime in July by current reckoning and December 25th is really the birthday of Mithras.
If you want to dig WAAAY back, what we think of as Christmas is a Winter Solstice festival. There are lots of conflicting opinions on this though.
I love you, man. Love you.
Until Christmas is renamed Saturnalia, we are out of touch with what it really means.
ThePlasmatizer: Yes we have lost sight of the meaning of Christmas, which is to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Technically Christmas as I recall, was the appropriation of several pagan festivals by Early Christianity in order to promote acceptance of their religion. As far as I know Jesus was REALLY born sometime in July by current reckoning and December 25th is really the birthday of Mithras.
If you want to dig WAAAY back, what we think of as Christmas is a Winter Solstice festival. There are lots of conflicting opinions on this though.
You're totally correct which is why Christ and Christmas are both totally coincidental right?
The early church placed Jesus' birth on a date that was already celebrated in the hopes of encouraging more to join in(and also to avoid prejudice). In reality, Christ was born somewhere between May and July, we aren't really sure.
Christmas' meaning has continuiously evolved throughout the past few centuries. Late Celtic groups in Britain celebrated it even with no knowledge of Christ being involved. It was banned in Puritan England for various reasons. Several religious groups now don't celebrate it partially because of doctrine, but also because of the sketchy history behind it. The name may make it appear to be 'Christ's mass' but its backstory for the most part disagrees.
It is Christ's Mass, it was placed there like you said by the church. We celebrate Christmas now not the Pagan Winter Festival.
It's undeniable Christmas is a celebration of Christ's birth regardless of cultural changes and founding history.
Wrong again genius not. The Christians celebrate it that way. And I repeat, the Christians. Corporations, non christian that is, do not market it that way. No one I can name within a 50 mile radius (and I know people up to 100 miles away) celebrates it like that. Just because you do, doesn't mean everyone does. The Christian Christmas is a lie. Thus Christians celebrate a lie. CONTRADICTION FROM HELL! SO! As long as Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ (it's definitely not Christ's Mass, as the Nazarene was Jewish and they don't hold mass to my knowledge) then you are celebrating a proven lie and you are sinning. BLAM!
Not really it was just moved for convenience.
I hate to resort to memery but the Christian Christmas is the only Christmas and you are doin' it wrong.
You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
I hate to resort to memery but the Christian Christmas is the only Christmas and you are doin' it wrong.
Oh, that's right, "moved for convenience," and, "Christian Christmas is the only Christmas". Congratulations, you've followed your religion to the point of sheer ignorance. Christmas was never about Christ until the Christians randomly told people of another religion that it was. Do your research. I swear to god, it's like arguing with a ten year old.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
How could they steal everything about Christmas if they orchestrated it? it could have a billion similarities with pagan holidays but it doesn't change the fact the main focus is the celebration of the birth of Jesus.
I hate to resort to memery but the Christian Christmas is the only Christmas and you are doin' it wrong.
Oh, that's right, "moved for convenience," and, "Christian Christmas is the only Christmas". Congratulations, you've followed your religion to the point of sheer ignorance. Christmas was never about Christ until the Christians randomly told people of another religion that it was. Do your research. I swear to god, it's like arguing with a ten year old.
You keep talking about a Pagan Winter Festival but unfortunately you can't distinguish between it and Christmas.
Christmas was always about Christ hence Christmas.
Also thnx for the comment about "following my religion to sheer ignorance" and the 10 year old comment, I'm just sorry you can't hold a discussion without resorting to childish namecalling.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
How could they steal everything about Christmas if they orchestrated it? it could have a billion similarities with pagan holidays but it doesn't change the fact the main focus is the celebration of the birth of Jesus.
Really? So Jesus Christ was born in what, Afghanistan in the middle of winter in the middle of the night in sub zero temperatures in a STABLE!? Maybe you're a retard or something but Jesus would have died within minutes of being born if that were true. You know, with no heating, no insulation, and the fact that at night in the desert it gets below zero even in the middle of summer. So guess how cold it gets at night in the middle of winter? Hm? Explain how a few nails killed Christ yet he was able to survive temperatures up -20+? So, I challenge you. PROVE that Christmas was a holiday orchestrated ENTIRELY by the Christian faith, without resorting to the ignorance of saying, "Well it has Christ in the name." Because pointing at the name of something, is not proof.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
How could they steal everything about Christmas if they orchestrated it? it could have a billion similarities with pagan holidays but it doesn't change the fact the main focus is the celebration of the birth of Jesus.
But jesus wasn't born on December 25th! The original Winter Holiday created by the Pagans was on December 25th, not the birth of Jesus. The Christians just renamed it and said it was for Jesus. Christmas is the exact same thing as Yule, it isn't celebrating the birth of Jesus. Jesus wasn't born even close to December 25th. The christians didn't orchestrate it, they just hijacked it and claimed it was theirs.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
How could they steal everything about Christmas if they orchestrated it? it could have a billion similarities with pagan holidays but it doesn't change the fact the main focus is the celebration of the birth of Jesus.
But jesus wasn't born on December 25th! The original Winter Holiday created by the Pagans was on December 25th, not the birth of Jesus. The Christians just renamed it and said it was for Jesus. Christmas is the exact same thing as Yule, it isn't celebrating the birth of Jesus. Jesus wasn't born even close to December 25th. The christians didn't orchestrate it, they just hijacked it and claimed it was theirs.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it? Like how Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th and the tree was originally a pagan symbol? Cause if you mean that, then yes, we have.
How could they steal everything about Christmas if they orchestrated it? it could have a billion similarities with pagan holidays but it doesn't change the fact the main focus is the celebration of the birth of Jesus.
But jesus wasn't born on December 25th! The original Winter Holiday created by the Pagans was on December 25th, not the birth of Jesus. The Christians just renamed it and said it was for Jesus. Christmas is the exact same thing as Yule, it isn't celebrating the birth of Jesus. Jesus wasn't born even close to December 25th. The christians didn't orchestrate it, they just hijacked it and claimed it was theirs.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
Christmas IS the Winter Solstice. The Winter Solstice was in fact taken by the Christians when they were invading, well, everything. So as not to alienate the people they were practically subjugating, they took one of their holidays, inserted their messiah and now the "heathens" were celebrating their lord. I'm still waiting for you to put up a reference to back up your claims.
You keep talking about a Pagan Winter Festival but unfortunately you can't distinguish between it and Christmas.
Christmas was always about Christ hence Christmas.
Also thnx for the comment about "following my religion to sheer ignorance" and the 10 year old comment, I'm just sorry you can't hold a discussion without resorting to childish namecalling.
Plasma, please, if you really are a Christian, do like the Bible advises us to be - discerning. As a Christian, I am imploring you to not be willfully ignorant. Read up on the history and you will see that the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church would adopt local religious customs to promote their brand of religion. Pretty sad stuff.
I'm not saying don't celebrate Christmas, just realize that first and foremost it is based around the northern hemisphere's winter solstice (thus a particular calendar used to date it as well) because people were happy that they had made it approximately half way through the colder part of the year and hopefully things would improve from there. Even though I realize both it being used as Jesus' birthday and for consumerism is complete hogwash, I'll still take the extra time off to spend with family and friends, probably playing multiplayer video games or board games. Look, if you are so concerned about celebrating Jesus' b-day and r-day, why not just be thankful for that everyday? It doesn't have to have a specific day of the year to have meaning ... at least, it isn't that shallow to me. Personally, I think most of the meanings given to the holidays are BS, simply because I don't want people to get depressed when rampant consumerism and tribal segregation gets them down.
Just accept the convoluted holidays for what they are and show some love, it helps during the winter season. =D
Christmas IS the Winter Solstice. The Winter Solstice was in fact taken by the Christians when they were invading, well, everything. So as not to alienate the people they were practically subjugating, they took one of their holidays, inserted their messiah and now the "heathens" were celebrating their lord. I'm still waiting for you to put up a reference to back up your claims.
He can't. The only reference he has is his gut. He doesn't have anything to back up his claims, he just feels it in his gut and knows that what he's saying is the truth. lol
P.S. The guy who made the comment above mine is someone all Christians should be like. Using his brain and deciding for himself what's BS and what isn't. Being nice and kind and not following the bible word for word. Although I don't understand how people can pick and choose from the bible and still call themselves Christians, I do like the fact that they do it. Most of the stuff from the Old Testament is just BS and should be ignored, same with most of the stuff in the New Testament. The only stuff I like in the Bible is the stuff that promotes good will and kindess, not the stuff that tells you to stone your daughter if she questions your beliefs.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
The Queen has an official and real birthday that are a month apart but that's beside the point because we're talking about Jesus.
So basically what your saying is that Yule celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ? because if I take all the trappings of Hanukkah and make the main focus of it the birth of Jesus Christ they are then still the same thing?
Obviously not, therein lies the flaw in your logic.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
The Queen has an official and real birthday that are a month apart but that's beside the point because we're talking about Jesus.
So basically what your saying is that Yule celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ? because if I take all the trappings of Hanukkah and make the main focus of it the birth of Jesus Christ they are then still the same thing?
Obviously not, therein lies the flaw in your logic.
Oh my god. And there it is. You try to make yourself sound right by trying to turn his point into something absurd because you know you're wrong. You have no references, and I can practically pull one off the internet right now. It's already open on my browser. Should I use it? Well, No. Because you've already proven yourself to be talking out of your ass as you have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and guess what; I'm Christian myself, and I know you're wrong.[/debate]
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
The Queen has an official and real birthday that are a month apart but that's beside the point because we're talking about Jesus.
So basically what your saying is that Yule celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ? because if I take all the trappings of Hanukkah and make the main focus of it the birth of Jesus Christ they are then still the same thing?
Obviously not, therein lies the flaw in your logic.
You just made a Strawman argument. I don't feel like arguing with someone like you. You just keep on going even when you've clearly had your ass handed to you. I'm just gonna watch how this unfolds from this point on, count me out of the "debate" thing.
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
The Queen has an official and real birthday that are a month apart but that's beside the point because we're talking about Jesus.
So basically what your saying is that Yule celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ? because if I take all the trappings of Hanukkah and make the main focus of it the birth of Jesus Christ they are then still the same thing?
Obviously not, therein lies the flaw in your logic.
You just made a Strawman argument. I don't feel like arguing with someone like you. You just keep on going even when you've clearly had your ass handed to you. I'm just gonna watch how this unfolds from this point on, count me out of the "debate" thing.
If you want to back down that's fine.
You tried to establish the fact that a pagan festival and a Christian holiday are exactly the same when the meaning has changed.
SecretTacoNinja: What do you define as the 'true meaning of Christmas'? We're Atheists so that rules out the possibility of it being to celebrate Mithras' Jesus' birthday. For me Christmas is a time to eat, drink, relax and get some stuff I want. Does that sound shallow? I don't think so, this is one of three times in the year where I can have some bloody fun...
Spending time with friends and family sounds like something very much a atheist/'Religious Person' would seem to both enjoy. I always thought thats what X-mas was about. I always though atheist liked other people too, I guess not ;)
Birthday celebrations aren't always held on the exact day.
Christ wasn't the addition to the holiday the paganism was, Christ has always been the main focus of Christmas, we are not talking about the Winter Solstice.
But they're never held a few months too early. And WTF!! Yes, yes we are talking about Yule. Christmas IS Yule, except it's celebrating the birth if Jesus Christ a few months too early. Stop arguing that Christmas came before Yule or that they're totally different because you're just making a fool of yourself. Yule came first, then the Christians hijacked it.
The Queen has an official and real birthday that are a month apart but that's beside the point because we're talking about Jesus.
So basically what your saying is that Yule celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ? because if I take all the trappings of Hanukkah and make the main focus of it the birth of Jesus Christ they are then still the same thing?
Obviously not, therein lies the flaw in your logic.
You just made a Strawman argument. I don't feel like arguing with someone like you. You just keep on going even when you've clearly had your ass handed to you. I'm just gonna watch how this unfolds from this point on, count me out of the "debate" thing.
If you want to back down that's fine.
You tried to establish the fact that a pagan festival and a Christian holiday are exactly the same when the meaning has changed.
No. He didn't. Your interpretation of what he said is wrong. Check Wikipedia on it. Even that place tells you you're wrong.
You tried to establish the fact that a pagan festival and a Christian holiday are exactly the same when the meaning has changed.
You can't use a strawman argument and then act like you've won when the person backs out. I backed out because you're too dogmatic to hold a proper argument against. You'll always win in your mind. Ponder what I've just said and shut up.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it?
The quote above shows you can't distinguish between the Winter Solstice and Christmas.
Where's is the strawman arguement in that? you're dismissing the changed meanings of the religious festivals and calling them the same.
Shadow-Knight: I hate to sound like every Christmas movie you've ever watched, but have people forgotten the meaning of Christmas? I can't believe that three people died on Black Friday. Are we that obsessed with presents and such that we're willing to fight. If so, why don't we just start gladiator matches outside stores and whoever wins gets what they want, for 80% off. Am I the only one who thinks things are spiraling out of control? What happened to the Christmas spirit? My family doesn't even get presents for each other anymore, instead we pool our money together to do something nice for one family member. We basically started this a couple years ago after getting sick of receiving gifts that don't suit us. Now the Holidays are relaxed and family gathering are about family.
What a lot of you don't realise is that all this materialism, and commercialism is the reason our town centres are decorated to the hilt. It's the reason Christmas has lingered around, after religion started to lose millions of its members. Don't you just love going to town when it;s dark early, and all the lights, and cristmas songs are on?
Well none of that would be there to draw your attention without the materialistic consumers.
And when you were a kid, the christmas spirit came from the anticipation and excitement of the presents and the decorations, which as I mentioned, come from the stores that are 'materialising' us.
Of course there are some values that could be brought back, but religion is fading more and more every year, as less kids are brought up in religious households.
Eipok Kruden: You mean have we forgotten about the original Pagan holiday that Christmas was based off of? Like how the Christians stole everything about Christmas and just slapped their own spin on it?
The quote above shows you can't distinguish between the Winter Solstice and Christmas.
Where's is the strawman arguement in that? you're dismissing the changed meanings of the religious festivals and calling them the same.
Yes you can. The winter Solstice itself had been around for who knows how long when the Chrsitians decided to murder it by adding their Messiah to it and demand that that be how everyone celebrate. (Sorry to those of you whom I may sound angry to, I just hate idiots). There is a difference. Christians call it Christmas, and idiots like you hold true that your holiday was first, even in the face of proof otherwise, and believe it was originally about Christ, even though by every calender it takes place nine months (the actual agreed upon date being march 25) after his birth. Winter Solstice and Christmas are different. The difference,? The latter is a bastardization of a beautiful holiday. Now. Kindly piss off, you've been proven wrong, admit your downfall and quit bringing in these fallible and inaccurate arguments.
You haven't won this argument, he just kicked your ass. Read through the rest of his post carefully. He wasn't saying you were right, he was saying that Christmas "is a bastardization of a beautiful holiday."
This has probably already been said, but the original true reason for Christmas was the birth of jesus. But nowadays, it's for family, friends and giving, which certainly has not been lost except for some idiots blinded by sales that they forget about human lives.