Yes |
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66.3% (130) |
No |
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33.7% (66) |
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Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1013 Joined: 4 Dec 2007     | |
On the Record  Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007    |
All holiday folklore is a re-write...of a re-write of a re-write of a re-write. Forget about finding the ur-text of any folklore: pre-modern peoples adapted their folklore as they saw fit/as their elders could remember it.
The Pagans are a gang-like motorcycle club with their primary powerbase in the Philadelphia/tri-state area. A pagan in the time period you are talking about is a member of one of any number of folk religions found in Europe. I don't know what you mean by pagans 'creating' the Winter Holiday--maybe A pagan group created it, but, pagans were hijacking each others' religious beliefs long before Christianity showed up. For example, the Romans ripping off the Greeks. Christians no more hijacked the Winter Holiday from the pagans than the Romans hijacked the Bacchanalia from the Greeks.
Maybe you should do a little reference work yourself, and see if maybe the people the Christians were subjugating were themselves invaders at one time and the culture that the Christians found was itself a product of the process of assimilation and acculturation between earlier peoples. Please though: enlighten us on your obviously vast knowledge of the religion of Hallsatt and La Tene culture--especially the interaction with Jastorf culture--in Europe in the pre-Christian period, and demonstrate to us that the heathen cultures that Christianity came in contact with were the culture in which that holiday originated, and not that those heathens had taken the holiday of heathens of a different culture in the same way Christianity later would.
Hmm, is that a social scientific term, "bastardization"? |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 717 Joined: 4 Feb 2008   | There was a meaning? Oh, yeah. The meaning that Dexter's Labratory taught us! "Christmas is about the presents!" Man, I loved that show |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 938 Joined: 9 Nov 2008   | Maybe Christmas is about fighting about its meaning. That way, it's bound to go on forever! |
On the Record  Posts: 5164 Joined: 21 Aug 2008  | seems like whenever Jesus did something it gave athiests an excuse to party He is born, you party. He dies, you eat chocolate and party. WTF?? >_> (lol)
Apparently though both birthdays are speculated, so i guess one can pick out whichever one he wants until we find out, or if we find out. Jebus FTW. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 594 Joined: 26 May 2008    |
Hmm...
Google Image Search has done enough for one day. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 78 Joined: 19 Nov 2008   | Christmas is Jesus Christ's birthday.. so its everyone's birthday.. coz he's in all of us? Christmas now has become about presents, some keep saying we all forget the meaning of it, what the hell, Christmas is christmas, whenever Jesus' birthday is, its been that way for centuries.. lets just let it be.. |
On the Record  Posts: 6709 Joined: 26 Jun 2008     | i think we've lost sight of christmas, i dont think we can even see it with a telescope anymore |
On the Record  Posts: 6110 Joined: 25 Jan 2008   |
LoL, no it isn't. Jesus wasn't born Dec25, a foreign god was (Think it was Mithras but my memory's foggy right now), and the church stole the date to use as Jesus's birthday to smooth over the conquest of another nation. That's what they did, they'd convert/conquer a faith then adapt the old faith's customs into christianity to help integration. Easter was stolen from Ēostre, though many mistakenly thing Easter was stolen from Ishtar. Christmas is a merger of Saturnalia, Winter Solstice and the birth of whatever his name is, that Persian God (again, my mind says Mithras). Even the Greek/Roman gods were ripped off, made into "saints" to assimilate the Romans. Saint Apollo isn't spoken of much these days, but he was demoted from deity to mortal by the church's say-so. So let's all celebrate Khellday this Saturday, before the f**king Jebus Crispies try to steal my day too. |
Muckraker  Posts: 335 Joined: 20 Sep 2008    | Well, you know, in Canada, we don't trample each other to death to get into stores. Christmas is a morph of many beliefs celebrated around this time... Aka, just celebrate and be happy! Screw materialism! Have a Merry Christmas! Also, screw people who say an agnostic/athiest/jew/buddhist/whatever is not a Christian cannot celebrate Christmas! You tell me how Santa relates to baby Jesus first! |
On the Record Posts: 6110 Joined: 25 Jan 2008 | The only thing about Canadian christmas is the overabundance of those crappy christmas carols being played in every mall, workplace, or public building. I seriously don't know anyone around here who likes it, but they all play it, and it makes us want to go on a shooting spree. |
On the Record  Posts: 5973 Joined: 7 Feb 2008  |
Christmas Carols...boring...into...my...brain... Raise the Shields Children! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1462 Joined: 15 May 2008    | I was always taught (by a non-religious family) that the meaning of Christmas was to share the time with your family. As long as you do that, who cares if you get presents, get drunk and over indulge on Nan's home made pavlova (or however that delicious thing is spelt[yeah, my nan makes it from scratch!]), as long as you spend it with your family :) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1566 Joined: 8 Oct 2008    | Of course we have but everyone enjoys the mindless shopping too much to switch to Festivus. |
Muckraker  Posts: 289 Joined: 10 Aug 2008  |
Add in some honey baked ham = Christmas. Christmas is a time of celebration and excess and it's great. People try to over sentimentalise it with the whole "remember what christmas is really about thing" What christmas is really about is the celebration of life, If I celebrate life by being with the people I love and having a good meal and giving gifts what is wrong with that? |
On the Record Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007 |
Um, Mithras was a god from Persia, who was worshiped by a lot of people in the Roman Army. What are you talking about, a foreign god and the conquest of another nation? When exactly was Persia conquered by a Christian nation? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2262 Joined: 24 Nov 2008  |
Regardless of stupid reason why the church named the 25th Christmas, it is still celebrated as the Day of Jesus' birth. It's the idea we celebrate, even if the day is off by a few months. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1426 Joined: 3 Apr 2008    | I hate christmas time because EVERYTHING is buy buy buy. When it should be Jesus will be born this day etc. along those lines. BUt all you see is buy in from of a wordless christmas song...uugh its disgusting. EVEN if your not christian someone who believes in God still this is a JOYOUS time not a buying time and worrisome and such. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1467 Joined: 16 May 2008    | I don't really care that someone was born on this day, years and years ago. I don't celebrate the religious side. Christmas to me is giving and receiving gifts and affection, catching up with family, eating good food and relaxing. Yes, it's a bit cliche, but I prefer to celebrate that, and that message (well, similar anyway) of family and giving has not faded away. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008    |
How about sacrifices to the gods of capitalism so the markets will grow again? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1870 Joined: 13 Oct 2008 | did you know that the idea of the red coat for dsanta is actually an add for coca-cola? it's true! he used to wear a white coat. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 514 Joined: 17 Sep 2008  | Well, here in Denmark christmas is still called by its old name: Jul (or Yule in English), which was a winter solstice feast lasting (if I remember correctly) more or less from the 21st to the 27th. Involving a lot of food and drink as well as present giving from the lord of the house or town to all his men (a lord's status was measured in the wealth of his men, not by his own wealth) as well as offerings to the gods and beings of the woods and earth. This last is still practised by placing rice-porridge to "nissen" (a creature reminescent of a brownie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(mythology) ). The only relation to the Christian holliday is in the songs we sing the 24th while walking/dancing round the christmas tree and a lot of these are about the tree or nissen or the feast. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 54 Joined: 17 Sep 2008     | Christmas never had a "true" meaning. It's a day like any other that has had a bunch of sentiment pumped into it artificially, so there was never much to lose. Personally, I will spend it visiting my folks, not out of any real want to do so but because even though I abhor the traditions and crap that clings to this day, others seem not to... Then I will go home to my messy, filthy place, which I will possibly even clean up a bit prior to the actual Christmas eve/day constellation, and RELAX for a day or two, then go back to work. So basically it's like a weekend, only slightly longer and with shops closed. I could get into this vaunted "Christmas spirit" if it was actually about relaxing, being with people you care about, that kinda thing. I will spend it with people I care about, my parents, sister etc, but there will be no relaxing, because that is apparently NOT part of the Christmas spirit. But once again, no, we haven't lost it, because we never had it. It's a holiday, for which I am grateful, but it's too steeped in pointless and bothersome traditions to be enjoyable. I have hated it since I was twelve. |
Muckraker  Posts: 315 Joined: 23 Apr 2008   | Of course it has. Christmas is a time that you need to be charitable, willing and in some countries, religious. It's like, the "spirit" of Christmas, to celebrate the birth of someone really really important. But we have come to the point that you HAVE to feel happy, walkin with a fixed smile on your face like a godd**n Barbie doll. It's like an obligation, not something that you have to feel in the inside, to the point where you have to wait for Christmas to come and tell you that you have be kind, positive and forgiving. Like there isn't an entire year to do that. We have to do it NOW, because the time is upon us. Imagine people having sex only on Valentine's day. That wouldn't be good. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 103 Joined: 17 Sep 2008 | Christmas is complex, but I personally see three main strands present in it: *'Christmas' is about Jesus. It's in the name. Nearly all of the most commonly recognised iconography is generally completely irrelevant save for the most obscure of links with the exception of nativity stuff. *Material-goods-and-senseless-gorging-mass is what most of us celebrate. It's fun, it's hedonistic and a nice way to unwind after a hectic year. However, beyond a few tired and overused clichés about peace on earth and good will to all men brutally hacked from the Christian tradition it has no real meaning to even lose. *There's a plethora of pagan festivals that are associated with the time of year; Winter Solstice, Yuletide and all manner of celebrations which just ultimately amount to a huge party. Christians infiltrated and subverted the assorted pagan festivals to promote the acceptance of their religion (Granted, not in a necessarily as clandestine and deliberate a way as my language implies.). So, I do think that we've lost the stricter sense of meaning in Christmas, insofar as the festival is anything but Christocentric. It doesn't render the current manifestation which is the weaving of all of the above strands invalid or bad, but so long as we continue to call it Christmas or maintain a veneer of religious meaning to it I'll maintain that it's something of a farce. 'Winter festivities' is a far more apt name, in my book. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3199 Joined: 12 Nov 2008   |
You sir, are a genius! :D |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2621 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 |
Thank you, thank you. *bows* |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2849 Joined: 8 Jul 2008 |
When did I ever say I didn't like spending time with people? |
Beat Writer  Posts: 156 Joined: 11 Sep 2008 | I am surprised by how many people think the meaning of X-mas is gone. Just.....wow. I know I started the thread and all but I was expecting it be around 50-50. It's currently 65.8%-34.2%. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 440 Joined: 10 Mar 2008  |
I though the ;) was suppose to indicate that it was all in friendly jest... I guess not. |
On the Record Posts: 6110 Joined: 25 Jan 2008 | Well, one more day down. Only one day left to do your Khellday shopping. What Khellday shopping you ask? Well you need the Crush Lime and the Hotdogs for the feast of course (any citrus soda can be substituted where Crush Lime is unavailable), but it is traditional on Khellday to buy at least one rubber phallus and mail it to the most uptight moralistic person you know. It's also tradition for some Khellday followers to buy friends and/or family some books, because reading promotes intelligence. But most importantly for the Khellday festivals and celebrations, is giving thanks to the Internet for all the joy it brings to our lives, and to honor the Internet, worshipers hang Cat-5 ethernet cable in the shape of the number 34 over their doorway. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1462 Joined: 15 May 2008 |
How can I celebrate Khellday? |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 51 Joined: 21 Sep 2008 | 'Chistmas' is the festival of the sun basically. Its to remember the birth of Santa ofcourse. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 105 Joined: 17 Nov 2008   | we lost the spirit of christmas when, eveyone started celebrate it (that means you non-christians), when it became a hoilday for everyone and when people started calling it x-mas. seriously,i hate shop adds that tell us to go buy their shit because its my messiahs birthday. ok the present giving has a deeper meaning, but when kids bitch an moan about not getting the right toy they want, you just want to slap them, sit them down and tell them what the meaning of christmas is. but of course that would never work because children have the attention span of about 6 seconds. another thing that piss me off. my friend, an atheist, and one that would constintly remind me of my faith and tell me to "be nice to him or god will punish me" today said he cant wait for christmas. this.. this made me snap. "how could you insult my religion and then celebrate its holidays for your own pleasure!" i screamed at the top of my lungs while grabbing at his shirt. christmas is thrown around like a meaningless day. but, hey that just my view i guess, some say its unfair, i say that every one doesnt celebrate the passover, so why does everyone celebrate christmas |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 2849 Joined: 8 Jul 2008 |
I was in my overly defensive mood. |
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No, I don't think we've lost the concept of the day. (Note that I'm not using a specific name!) I think we're starting to find it again.
It started out most likely as a celebration of midwinter, after which the sun starts returning and the weather gets gradually warmer. Good reason to celebrate, I'd say. So it was basically secular celebration of "we're gonna survive this, so let's be happy" then it got invaded and became, "we're gonna survive this, but those bastards are gonna kill us if we don't say we're celebrating that one guy, so... yeah, Christ and such, let's be happy, but not too happy, because they might kill us for that, too." Then over time the brainwashing took effect and it became "Jesus Christ! Happy!" And now it's returning to "it's midwinter, let's be happy."
Which almost definitely means that aliens will be arriving soon, enforcing their religion and religious holidays on our puny species. To restart the cycle and such. (Wait, 2012, the beginning of a new Mayan cycle, our current religious holiday cycle reaching its end, just four years from that date, which happens to be near December 25. FUCK, they predicted the alien inquisition!)
Also, I'm happy with the new holidays. Less religious activity (yay atheism) and more arbitrary celebration. So I can worry less about having to have religion shoved up my ass and people can be more straightforward with their celebrations.
EDIT: Actually, more probable would be Muslim extremists trying to bomb people into conversion to Islam with new weapons they gain access to in 2011 or late 2010. The most probably place would be just near Dec. 25, too, because that would be the height of religious furor, and the most angering to them, probably. If we get bombed to hell (or receive message of being bombed to hell in the near future) (EDIT: because of Christmas, by Muslim extremists) on Dec. 21, I fucking called it.