Women are allowed to bathe topless in danish indoor public pools. On all public beaches, You are allowed to be nude, as long as you're not acting offending soo... what morality? :P
My feelings on this whole "penis" arguement, it's a really stupid one. Just because breasts are considered sexual does not equate them with a male's reproductive organ. Breasts have been sexualized by society, while penises have been used for sex forever. The actual equivalent of a penis would be a vagina, and I'm really not for people walking around pant-less.
Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.
So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless?
Trace2010: Umm...yeah. I think that has to do more with Victorian England than Islamic culture.
In fact, the Islamic culture is more concerned with HAIR than breasts. If an Islamic woman is caught in the shower, she will cover her hair. (It was in a sociology book, but damned if I have it any more.) My guess is that because America was formed by Deeply religious people, our culture still has a more prude side than most other countries.
Exactly! Most of our so called "morals" are based in religious ideals.
MrGFunk: Because if women walked round topless, everyone would stare at them, or pretend not to and nothing would get done. Except maybe getting larger memory cards for our phones.
While funny, might not be true. Men spend a large portion of their day trying to get to see women naked/topless, whether they realize they are doing it or not. If they aren't having to hunt around to find it, maybe they would get more stuff done, since they are wasting less time in the pursuit of boobies.
Yeah...I'm Dutch, so it's not really a problem here, women sunbathe topless a lot. Shame that most of them aren't all that hot though, at least not from what I've seen.
Its religion in general that prevents girls from being topless. Most Americans(Damn puritans) like to keep a false sense of purity and righteousness by claiming it corrupts the youth whenever they see women as they naturally are.
Funny that, I don't see any Atheists walking around naked, either.
This is quite possibly the worst thought-out attack on Religion I have ever seen, and that is saying something.
Either that, or I'm missing out on these Atheist sex-orgies and nude beaches, in which those free from the shackles of religion and the puritanic scolding, suddenly start to love getting naked.
You are making an uninformed and crude attack personal. It is a proven fact that America was formed by the Puritans. And it is a proven fact that the Puritans were HUGE prudes, not even allowing dancing and playing as children because it is something only the Devil would allow. Thus, it easily follows that American morals and laws are based upon a HUGELY prude point of view. Look at France. No one cares there if a woman sunbathes nude or topless. Ditto most of Europe. WE are the only ones that have a HUGE problem with it.
facaldo: Why a man can go topless publicly all over the world while women can't ? It's not even widely practiced in USA. On beaches and on the roads you can find girls in bikni while men absolutely topless. (I'm not talking about "NO CLOTHES BEYOND THIS POINT AREAS")
Do you think it's Islamic impression of morality on all the communities of the world or a general in born approach of morality left in people.
Exactly! Most of our so called "morals" are based in religious ideals.
Culture or religion is chicken or the egg. I believe women covered their breasts prior to the introduction of Christianity in Europe.
If it was legal do you think they would go topless. No. At least the majority wouldn't.
Yes, except by legalizing it you open the door to organic social change uninhibited by legal hurdles.
Well, when you put it that way...yeah.
Except you can't justify the continuity of oppression by saying that women have to wear shirts or else they'll be 'vulnerable.' This was used for a whole lots of things - voting will make women more 'vulnerable'; women need to be 'protected' from working - and it's just wrong.
MrGFunk: Because if women walked round topless, everyone would stare at them, or pretend not to and nothing would get done. Except maybe getting larger memory cards for our phones.
While funny, might not be true. Men spend a large portion of their day trying to get to see women naked/topless, whether they realize they are doing it or not. If they aren't having to hunt around to find it, maybe they would get more stuff done, since they are wasting less time in the pursuit of boobies.
I've never met anyone...well maybe one or two...who spends the majority of their day hunting for boobs (except on weekends). Men have lives too, it's not always about getting girls naked. At the same time, we are only human in that if women all of a sudden started walking around without shirts and bras, we wouldn't get much done.
Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.
So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.
No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.
I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.
Its religion in general that prevents girls from being topless. Most Americans(Damn puritans) like to keep a false sense of purity and righteousness by claiming it corrupts the youth whenever they see women as they naturally are.
Funny that, I don't see any Atheists walking around naked, either.
This is quite possibly the worst thought-out attack on Religion I have ever seen, and that is saying something.
Either that, or I'm missing out on these Atheist sex-orgies and nude beaches, in which those free from the shackles of religion and the puritanic scolding, suddenly start to love getting naked.
You are making an uninformed and crude attack personal. It is a proven fact that America was formed by the Puritans. And it is a proven fact that the Puritans were HUGE prudes, not even allowing dancing and playing as children because it is something only the Devil would allow. Thus, it easily follows that American morals and laws are based upon a HUGELY prude point of view. Look at France. No one cares there if a woman sunbathes nude or topless. Ditto most of Europe. WE are the only ones that have a HUGE problem with it.
He wasn't making an attack. He was pointing out the absurdity of the post.
Europe is not made up of huge numbers of atheists. So the argument that this is religion based is frankly retarded. Communist U.S.S.R was atheist though, although I don't recall them all suddenly getting their kit off.
THINK about this for a minute people. Why is it frowned upon for women to sit in McDonalds with their boobs hanging out? If you are really going to blame the puritans of the 16th century then I would really like to try some of whatever it is you are drinking.
facaldo: Why a man can go topless publicly all over the world while women can't ? It's not even widely practiced in USA. On beaches and on the roads you can find girls in bikni while men absolutely topless. (I'm not talking about "NO CLOTHES BEYOND THIS POINT AREAS")
Do you think it's Islamic impression of morality on all the communities of the world or a general in born approach of morality left in people.
Your take?
Islamic impression? Are all of us in North America ruled by a Sultan? (...good alternate history idea)
Even though people are arguing that women going around topless has nothing to do with religion, I think there is a factor, but only an indirect one. Because America was originally built on Christianity (as was Canada) it was ingrained in our society and culture that going around topless was bad. Even when religion left center stage, several little compulsions were remained (like not going topless, a hesitant stance on homosexuality, and polygamy being seen as bad (unless your Mormon, in which cause you're going to hell for talking about breasts anyway). Our culture has taught us that topless equals bad as a remnant of our past faith.
Except you can't justify the continuity of oppression by saying that women have to wear shirts or else they'll be 'vulnerable.' This was used for a whole lots of things - voting will make women more 'vulnerable'; women need to be 'protected' from working - and it's just wrong.
I don't know if the arguement is that it makes them "vulnerable," but that it is inappropriate. Still sexist, but society has made slight improvements in that women aren't seen as "vulnerable" as they used to.
Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.
So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.
No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.
I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.
Religion has everything to do with this, when a society blames women going topless or the exposure of a breast on television with the corruption of their children. If the greater part of the society feels this way or has these morals, they will vote to keep it illegal.
Darth Mobius: Look at France. No one cares there if a woman sunbathes nude or topless. Ditto most of Europe. WE are the only ones that have a HUGE problem with it.
Okay, you know that point about being crude and uninformed?
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
I would understand the influence of Puritans, if this was not 2008, and the lynches hadn't stopped. The world no longer stones homosexuals or adulterers, Atheists are no longer burned at the stake, and the world has certainly moved on from the point in which Religion determines what, how, and when we do.
You cannot blame a religious movement from the 17-18th century for the majority of social views today.
Okay, some areas of America are far, far worse than others, but this thread is not about that, it is about;
So yes, his point might be valid for parts of one country, but that doesn't mean that the French are a bunch of laid-back nymphos who are all perfectly okay with public nudity.
In the same way that the majority of Americans are not racist, intolerant biggots, the majority of Europeans are not immoral, sex-crazed party-animals...in fact, I feel silly even describing them as such.
I am aware that Christianity still has a huge influence in America, but the fanatical, intolerant extremists amongst Christianity do not.
The way Americans see breasts and the way Europeans see breasts are two very different things. Europeans dont feel that breasts are responsible for the corruption of their children.
No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.
I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.
It just doesn't make any sense, because you can assign social factors to religion. Still, I agree that people on The Escapist use organized religion as a scapegoat so they can feel like their hands are somehow clean as Atheists.
Of course, but the other guy's arguement was that it wouldn't have any effect on men, I was correcting him.
It wouldn't really have any effect on men, and that's a bad angle. Freeing back slaves showed patent disregard for white slaveowners' 'assets', but it was still the right thing to do.
I am aware that Christianity still has a huge influence in America, but the fanatical, intolerant extremists amongst Christianity do not.
Just google the Moral Majority. Intolerant extremists actually have more effect on American society today than they've had since before the American Revolution, which can be related to the spiritual revivalism of the post-WWII era (this is a fact: religious worship rates are up, after the Six Days' War secular models were rejected in the Middle East, Buddhism has grown in Japan, etc). Thinking the influence of Christianity in the U.S. has waned is a historic misconception - even when debates about slave ownership raged, they were almost all secular, and several of the Founding Fathers possessed open disdain for Christianity.
Azrael the Cat: Well it really isn't that unusual (for both sexes to go topless) outside of the USA. You obviously haven't done a lot of travelling around Europe have you? Throughout much of europe there isn't a lot of difference between men and women going topless, and far less hassle about going completely nude. In Germany, for example, you'll see female office-workers sunbathing topless in the parks during their lunch-break, no special laws required. There's female toplessness in ads and billboards with no controversy. You need to remember that the US is by far the most sexually conservative of all the western countries - and this is from an Aussie, whose country is about equal 2nd most conservative along with the UK (both of which are FAR less concerned with nudity than the US - I can still remember the shocked look on the US tourists' face when they saw the kind of nudity that was uncontroversial in ordinary TV and billboards in Europe). Most of the Western world isn't quite as repressed as you guys.
Oh really? I agree that there are different laws and standards, but it's more of a privacy issue. In the UK for example - most people just aren't comfortable with exposing areas of their bodies, men and women alike. plus, the temperature's dropped to just above freezing.
In Germany things are different, and there is a higher degree of exposure and sexuality, but it would still be quite rare to find a naked woman in public, just through sheer embarressment. That doesn't make them repressed, it makes them normal. If someone was walking down the street naked, then they would have some serious trouble.
But normal human shyness just prevents too much exposure in a public place, and a woman's breasts are considered sexual. Look at the films and media - a man can be topless in a film of almost any certificate, but women can only be seen topless in 15s and 18s.
Agreed. I think a lot of you are missing one of the biggest factors in the prevention of public nudity here, embarrasment. On family holidays, who would want to see their parents and siblings naked? Or them to see you naked? Not me.
Azrael the Cat: Well it really isn't that unusual (for both sexes to go topless) outside of the USA. You obviously haven't done a lot of travelling around Europe have you? Throughout much of europe there isn't a lot of difference between men and women going topless, and far less hassle about going completely nude. In Germany, for example, you'll see female office-workers sunbathing topless in the parks during their lunch-break, no special laws required. There's female toplessness in ads and billboards with no controversy. You need to remember that the US is by far the most sexually conservative of all the western countries - and this is from an Aussie, whose country is about equal 2nd most conservative along with the UK (both of which are FAR less concerned with nudity than the US - I can still remember the shocked look on the US tourists' face when they saw the kind of nudity that was uncontroversial in ordinary TV and billboards in Europe). Most of the Western world isn't quite as repressed as you guys.
erm... did you happen to go to Amsterdam by any chance? i live in Britain, and its very very conservative... i might say even more so than the US! (although highly unlikely), and the rest of Europe, although they are admitedly more relaxed about nudity, doesn't exactly have naked people strolling all over the place... i've never seen nudity on bill boards and such either, either in Britain or Europe (i refuse to acknowledge Britain as part of Europe!!! cause... well, just cause!)
genauguy: because guys find girl's breasts more attractive then girls find guy's breasts
This sums it up nicely. They have the power of the Almighty Boob, and they wield it by hiding it. This is one area of power where there will never be "gender equality."
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
Qayin, now you took my slight exaggeration as a personal attack. I could and was thinking about mentioning Spain or a few other countries that ALLOW IT, but because I didn't, YOU decided I said your country was nothing but a bunch of Sex Maniacs. I NEVER SAID THAT. I NEVER MEANT THAT! I said that women SUNBATHE TOPLESS. Not that they run through the streets of PARIS fucking each other in public. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned Sunbathing. THAT IS ALL I MENTIONED. You need to chill out. No one here was personally attacking you.
Naterstein: I for one love em and would hate to be desensitized to their appearance. Plus unsupported boobies will sag faster and no-one wants that.
YES! All of that. I have no problem with women being nude in public, other than the fact that I will be desensitized to it, and it loses 99% of its fun at that point...
because guys find girl's breasts more attractive then girls find guy's breasts
I would differ, but whatever.
erm... did you happen to go to Amsterdam by any chance? i live in Britain, and its very very conservative... i might say even more so than the US! (although highly unlikely), and the rest of Europe, although they are admitedly more relaxed about nudity, doesn't exactly have naked people strolling all over the place... i've never seen nudity on bill boards and such either, either in Britain or Europe (i refuse to acknowledge Britain as part of Europe!!! cause... well, just cause!)
Britain obviously isn't more conservative than the U.S. Collectivism is ingrained in its culture (Edmund Burke?), and it's led by a party that makes no bones about being culturally Marxist.
Of course, but the other guy's arguement was that it wouldn't have any effect on men, I was correcting him.
It wouldn't really have any effect on men, and that's a bad angle. Freeing back slaves showed patent disregard for white slaveowners' 'assets', but it was still the right thing to do.
Did you just compare freeing boobs to freeing slaves?
Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.
So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.
No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.
I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.
Religion has everything to do with this, when a society blames women going topless or the exposure of a breast on television with the corruption of their children. If the greater part of the society feels this way or has these morals, they will vote to keep it illegal.
Very well.
Next time a flasher is caught by police for waving his todger at strangers I will remember that he isn't a pervert, it is just my prejudice left over from the intolerance of some biggoted 17th century priests.
By the way, do you need a tunnel at all? I have one for sale at the moment...
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
Qayin, now you took my slight exaggeration as a personal attack. I could and was thinking about mentioning Spain or a few other countries that ALLOW IT, but because I didn't, YOU decided I said your country was nothing but a bunch of Sex Maniacs. I NEVER SAID THAT. I NEVER MEANT THAT! I said that women SUNBATHE TOPLESS. Not that they run through the streets of PARIS fucking each other in public. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned Sunbathing. THAT IS ALL I MENTIONED. You need to chill out. No one here was personally attacking you.
Capslock warrior here.
Are you saying nobody sunbathes nude on beaches in Florida or California?
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
Qayin, now you took my slight exaggeration as a personal attack. I could and was thinking about mentioning Spain or a few other countries that ALLOW IT, but because I didn't, YOU decided I said your country was nothing but a bunch of Sex Maniacs. I NEVER SAID THAT. I NEVER MEANT THAT! I said that women SUNBATHE TOPLESS. Not that they run through the streets of PARIS fucking each other in public. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned Sunbathing. THAT IS ALL I MENTIONED. You need to chill out. No one here was personally attacking you.
Don't women sunbathe topless in America as well?
Oh and also there's quite a few people here mixing up religion with morals. It's quite true that both might be related but it doesn't apply to the general rule.
They do, but only on specially sanctioned beaches, and for every beach I know about, there are thousands that AREN'T... Then again, have only ever found ONE in all of the 43 different states I have been to.
Get a classroom full of atheist 14 year olds, and then get a woman to teach them all topless. If you are going to claim it would all be fine then you are talking out of your ass. If you are going to say there might be a few difficulties then you can't blame religion for this one.
So because of prejudice that results in the objectification of women when they expose the same region of their body as men, it somehow makes sense not to legalize going topless? I don't follow - attractive women have a hard time teaching young males, anyway.
No. I mentioned nothing of legality nor anything to do with objectification.
I am merely pointing out the absurdity of blaming religion for this.
Religion has everything to do with this, when a society blames women going topless or the exposure of a breast on television with the corruption of their children. If the greater part of the society feels this way or has these morals, they will vote to keep it illegal.
Very well.
Next time a flasher is caught by police for waving his todger at strangers I will remember that he isn't a pervert, it is just my prejudice left over from the intolerance of some biggoted 17th century priests.
By the way, do you need a tunnel at all? I have one for sale at the moment...
Please, tell me, what are American morals based on? Why are they based on it? Why?
Helnurath: Are muscular male chests considered sexually attractive?
It depends who you ask. I'd say yes, they are. On the other hand I'm not so lacking in self control that simply seeing a good looking guy shirtless makes me drop what I'm doing, fill up my phone's memory card with photos and abandon productivity. I wouldn't hoot and holler or follow him around, nor would I try to make any advances. Seriously now, the idea that being exposed to sexual or arousing images has some sort of pavlovian effect on men is a bit condescending.
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
Qayin, now you took my slight exaggeration as a personal attack. I could and was thinking about mentioning Spain or a few other countries that ALLOW IT, but because I didn't, YOU decided I said your country was nothing but a bunch of Sex Maniacs. I NEVER SAID THAT. I NEVER MEANT THAT! I said that women SUNBATHE TOPLESS. Not that they run through the streets of PARIS fucking each other in public. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned Sunbathing. THAT IS ALL I MENTIONED. You need to chill out. No one here was personally attacking you.
Don't women sunbathe topless in America as well?
Oh and also there's quite a few people here mixing up religion with morals. It's quite true that both might be related but it doesn't apply to the general rule.
Some American morals are based on religious ideals in a society where nudity is extremely sexualized.
Europe is not one giant sex-party, we do care if people walk around naked, and just because it occurs more frequently here, that does not mean we see it as anything other than a bunch of exhibitionists craving attention.
Qayin, now you took my slight exaggeration as a personal attack. I could and was thinking about mentioning Spain or a few other countries that ALLOW IT, but because I didn't, YOU decided I said your country was nothing but a bunch of Sex Maniacs. I NEVER SAID THAT. I NEVER MEANT THAT! I said that women SUNBATHE TOPLESS. Not that they run through the streets of PARIS fucking each other in public. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned Sunbathing. THAT IS ALL I MENTIONED. You need to chill out. No one here was personally attacking you.
Don't women sunbathe topless in America as well?
Oh and also there's quite a few people here mixing up religion with morals. It's quite true that both might be related but it doesn't apply to the general rule.
Some American morals are based on religious ideals in a society where nudity is extremely sexualized.
Keyword being some.
Until those morals are made into laws there's nothing to be argued here.
Women are allowed to bathe topless in danish indoor public pools. On all public beaches, You are allowed to be nude, as long as you're not acting offending soo... what morality? :P