allowing firearms isn't smart in the first place.

They're already there. One must learn to "deal with it," as it were.

Well, I've read all ten pages of this thread, and now my head hurts. If I may, allow me to sum up what I perceive to be the two extreme sides of this argument, and then my rebuttals.

"Guns are evil! Ban all guns, take all guns away from law-abiding citizens, and then no one will ever have guns!"
I'm sorry, but no. Unless there were a law-enforcement crackdown on illegal weapons the scope of which has never been seen before in America, there is absolutely no chance that even a slim percentage of the illegal weapons currently in possession of criminals would be siezed. Thus, you would have a disarmed populace and a still-armed criminal element. We do not have police on every street corner ready and waiting to pounce on criminals the instant they have a nefarious thought; some cities have reported 15 to 30 minutes between a call to 911 and a police cruiser arriving on-scene. While the following quote may be pro-gun propaganda, it also rings true far too often: "The police arrive just in time to draw a chalk outline around a body".

"Leave my guns alone! The gub'ment's gonna try to take my home and I'm gonna shoot 'em! Guns keep me safe from a repressive government!"

I'm sorry, but no. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people who claim this would, upon being confronted by a heavily-armed SWAT team, put their hands up and surrender quietly. It's all well and good to claim that you are the first, last and only line of defense against a government who is just waiting on that last order of black helicopters before they come to take you away, but when it comes to your 15-round magazine of 9mm ammunition versus a police sharpshooter and a ten-man team of trained officers with ballistic shields and shotguns, your chances are nil and you know it. It may be that the government will overstep all bounds someday, but don't even try to glorify it or make yourself out to be the next justice-bringing gunslinger.

Now. A little about me. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative; I believe that the government can do more with less. I do not belong to any political party, lobbyist group or "club" such as the NRA or MoveOn.org. I am also a casual shooter who qualified for a concealed-carry license at my first visit to a range, someone who received a general discharge from Army basic training after qualifying as an expert with an M16A2, and someone who hopes to one day become a professional competitive shooter despite the fact that I do not currently own a firearm. I can also refer to two occurances which show the value of an armed populace, and the danger of disarming one.

1) The North Hollywood Shootout.

In a nutshell: Two previously-arrested felons, heavily armed with illegally-modified weapons and illegally-obtained ammunition, protected by considerable body armor and heavily dosed with barbituates, instigated a bank robbery and then engaged in a 40-minute shootout with police. The standard-issue 9mm and .38 rounds the officers were issued were useless against the body armor, and they actually had to requisition semi-automatic rifles from a nearby gun store until SWAT teams could move in.

Two men held off an entire police force for forty minutes. Can you imagine what an entire group of people like that could do, if their intent was to kill instead of rob?

Maybe something like this.

2) The terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India.

I don't think I need to go into much detail with the "what happened", considering how recent this event was. However, think about this: India has some of the tightest gun-control laws in the world outside of abjectly banning them outright. Yet it is reported that black-market weaponry of the grade the attackers used could be had for as little as $1500 (US) a piece. It took Indian security forces three days to regain control, after which nearly two hundred people had been killed and another three hundred were wounded.

Ten men held off an entire country's armed response for three days. Could these terrorists, none of whom wore body armor, have been stopped sooner if the citizens and tourists had been armed?

America already has stringent gun laws on its books already. The issue is that they are not enforced nearly as well as they should be. I am in favor of gun licensing and training, heavy penalties for crimes committed with firearms, and improved funding of police departments. Your average homeowner does not need ready access to weaponry designed to take on armored vehicles. But to say that all it takes is a law to disarm everyone, and that everyone will be safe, is the absolute height of fantasy. It's not going to happen in this world anytime soon.

There is no reason why people living outside of rural areas need guns. And there is absolutly no need for handguns ouside of military use.

RetiarySword:

A law won't stop a criminal, but it makes their job harder. How many people from the UK know anyone who could supply you with anything liek a pistol. Shotguns farmers have, air rifles a few people have them but not a fucking semi-auto pistol! In your country most people have guns under their pillows. I've never seen an illegal gun in my life. The fact that I havn't sort of proves it works.

Being a UK Resident, and in a pretty secluded bit to be fair out the way, I live in a town. It is a good 30 minute train ride to the nearest city [Birmingham] and even in a place like that you CAN find a place to sell you a gun. And pretty cheaply too. Alot of the time its legal disarmed or immitation pistols and things that have been made deadly by people.
Or its things smuggled in from other places in Europe, greece mainly for like knuckle-dusters and things.

Manchester I would assume to be even worse [moss side, say no more].

Its not too much harder than buying drugs, and depending on how shady a character you're dealing from they might offer to sell you a weapon.
Bad times.

huntedannoyed:
There is no reason why people living outside of rural areas need guns. And there is absolutly no need for handguns ouside of military use.

That's a very blinkered point of view. I think you mean that *you* can see no reason for people outside rural areas to own guns; those who do see a need for them might well disagree, and their opinions are just as valid as yours.

There's vermin control, sports shooting, hobby shooting, hunting at the weekend or on holiday, self-defence, and simply shooting for the fun of it.

And before you say that self-defence isn't a legitimate reason, remember this: the police is a reactive authority. We all wish the police could reliably stop crimes from happening, and from my acquaintances within the police I know they do their very best, but nobody can be everywhere - least of all an understaffed, underpaid, overworked police force. Chances are the best the police will be able to do is investigate a crime after the fact. And in some cases, that's not enough.

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

I'm a Brit and i have higher :) mwhahahahhaha
-i dont need guns anyway, i can kill you with my brain :D

on a more serious note your totally right about the loudmouth retard bit :)

AntiThom:

rossatdi:

Calm down. You sound like the last person I'd want to have a gun. Also, how many cases of home owners fighting off hordes of gun armed raiders have you heard about in the last month. This isn't the wild west and it's not the apocalypse.

Well then you'd be glad to know that I own 13 firearms, and I've got another one soon to come. I've never had to use any of them in a self defense scenario, and honestly I hope I'll never have to. There's more to the right to bear arms than hunting, sport shooting and self defense, I feel people have forgotten that, you've all been desensitized by modern times. Just don't forget that people will always be people, and that's something not to take lightly.

oh and check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

Okay, okay, okay! We agree with you! Completely! Goodbye, former opinions and beliefs, never forget how treated you. *Blows kiss to the wind* Oh woe be to our foolish, impressionable selves for letting us be fooled and led astray by the false light that is opinion kept to oneself.
Oh well now! I've found a NEW light! One that lets me know see again, and know just how impressionable and soft our minds can be. I was subservient to one idea, and for that I'm TRU-ly sorry! I know serve one mindset now, and it is the one that is old, trustworthy and conventional. Guns are our right, but opinion is NOT!

Now then, if you've just suffered a sarcasm overload, let it be known that I don't think Gun control would be effective legislation, nor do I value general safety over self-defense, but I'm not off badgering people who think otherwise. Give us a convincing, well-formed argument and defense for guns, and we will listen to you. But don't expect any amount of "discussion" to change other people's minds.

americans are just as stupid as a people as any other place, gun control is a good thing, americans kill eachother off all the damn time, quit being an annoying ass redneck.

This entire thread: citation needed.

rossatdi:

Calm down. You sound like the last person I'd want to have a gun. Also, how many cases of home owners fighting off hordes of gun armed raiders have you heard about in the last month. This isn't the wild west and it's not the apocalypse.

Map of homicide rates, darker = higher. Note the USA's darker shade.

Homicide rate != deaths caused by firearms.
Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm
According to the above website, firearms are the most commonly used weapon to commit a homicide.

You must take a step back and realize that you cannot just focus on one portion of the pie. Would you be so naive as to say that the reason the USA has such a high rate of homicide is because of the abundance of firearms? You must look at everything (cultural issues, economic turmoil, poverty, et cetera). I do not believe that banning firearms would aid in decreasing crime significantly if the other issues I have mentioned (and not just those ones) are not addressed. Just legislating firearms into the realm of the banhamm0r would be folly.

Anonymouse:

However did having access to guns save the lives of all those kids are columbine or virginia tech?
Yes if the students had also had guns they could have taken the shooters out. If the kids daddy did not have such a large stockpile he would never have gotten his hands on it.
If gun control was widespread and actaully enforced then some criminals would obviously still get guns through illegal gun merchants. However it would be alot riskier, alot more hassle and alot more expensive so not just every low level crim will be carring a weapon.

Harris and Klebold obtained the firearms illegally through straw purchases. Though, if my memory serves me well one (or perhaps both?) of the fathers was in the employ of the US DoD (perhaps said father was issued a sidearm,).

Cho was able to purchase firearms even though he was adjucated mentally defective.

Perhaps the USA would benefit if more stringent background checks were introduced.

Also, this is an interesting read- for both sides of this thread.
http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-gun-is-civilization.html

Gun statistics in the U.S

250 million guns (privately owned)
10,000 murders a year
9 kids die a day from gunfire.
firearms kill 3 people every hour
A gun kept in the house is 43% more likely to kill a loved on than an intruders weapon is.

It may not be feasable or possible to remove the guns from criminals, I don't think that anybody would argue less criminals being armed is a bad thing, but I can see how people think its an unacheivable goal.

However, if not outlaw guns, clearly it should be manditory to at least own a gun safe alongside your firearm. Most deaths related to guns are not deliberate. The whole gun culture in America is a serious problem, people see themselves as cowboys and do not respect firearms as they should. Some form of gun control, on a national level would do good if executed properly, and some form of gun control within individual households would do good unconditionaly

awmperry:

huntedannoyed:
There is no reason why people living outside of rural areas need guns. And there is absolutly no need for handguns ouside of military use.

That's a very blinkered point of view. I think you mean that *you* can see no reason for people outside rural areas to own guns; those who do see a need for them might well disagree, and their opinions are just as valid as yours.

There's vermin control, sports shooting, hobby shooting, hunting at the weekend or on holiday, self-defence, and simply shooting for the fun of it.

And before you say that self-defence isn't a legitimate reason, remember this: the police is a reactive authority. We all wish the police could reliably stop crimes from happening, and from my acquaintances within the police I know they do their very best, but nobody can be everywhere - least of all an understaffed, underpaid, overworked police force. Chances are the best the police will be able to do is investigate a crime after the fact. And in some cases, that's not enough.

I like how your first example for the usefullness of guns is "Vermin control." Those arn't your rats to shoot! Second, if nobody had guns, there would be no need to defend yourself with one. Police officers in England dont wear them.
Sport and hobby shooting may be a valid point, but I think just amounts to little less than a gorilla beating his chest to intimidate and can just as easily be accomplished with non lethal weapons like Pellet guns.

You know a parallel can be draw here between gun control laws and piracy (copyright infringment). Any proponents of any kind of DRM will tell you that DRM makes pirate's jobs harder. The problem with that is that I only slows them down. Unless you stop piracy completely DRM will forever be completely ineffective and a complete waste of money and time.

Conversely, gun control is only effective if all crime is already ended. The point remains that if a criminal or psychopath wants a gun, they will get one regardless of the laws in place

Consequently, enough with the effing gun control threads already. You are not going to change anyone's minds here, I don't care if you have the most convincing argument in the world, lest you forget, this is the internet and everyone thinks they are smarter than everyone else.

huntedannoyed:

awmperry:

There's vermin control, sports shooting, hobby shooting, hunting at the weekend or on holiday, self-defence, and simply shooting for the fun of it.

I like how your first example for the usefullness of guns is "Vermin control." Those arn't your rats to shoot! Second, if nobody had guns, there would be no need to defend yourself with one. Police officers in England dont wear them.
Sport and hobby shooting may be a valid point, but I think just amounts to little less than a gorilla beating his chest to intimidate and can just as easily be accomplished with non lethal weapons like Pellet guns.

They aren't my rats to shoot? Would I be right in assuming that you live in a town?

Let's say you're a farmer. Foxes come and eat your chickens. Are you seriously suggesting that a farmer isn't within their rights to shoot the fox?

Or what about rabbits? When the rabbit population gets too high, a disease called myximatosis emerges (look up "malthusian checks"), as a natural mechanism to reduce the rabbit population. We have lots of rabbits in the garden at home, and myxi is a horrible way to die. It's much better to cull the rabbits when they start getting numerous, thus reducing the rabbit population and minimising the incidence of disease.

Moving on... If nobody had guns, what about knives? If someone runs at me with an axe, is it fair to expect me to wait for them to get close so I can defend myself with my bare hands? The rule of thumb is that if someone is within 21 feet with a bladed weapon, they're able to stab you before you've had time to draw a handgun, and once you're in a knife fight you've got to be pretty skilled to survive it. In other words, unless you carry a knife - which is illegal in Britain if the blade's long enough to be an effective weapon - you basically have no chance.

Or do you want to ban knives as well? Then someone will use a bottle as a weapon. Seriously, we humans are pretty resourceful in finding ways to kill each other. The belief that "If we ban guns, nobody will have guns, so nobody will need guns" is a spectacularly naive one. Drugs are already banned in most places, yet people still manage to dope themselves to the gills. One of the defining characteristic about criminals is that they don't care about laws...

Oh, and police in the UK do carry guns; indeed, the proportion of AFOs (Authorised Firearms Officers) has been rising over the last decade, and routinely armed patrols are becoming standard in some areas.

Sport and hobby shooting may be a valid point, but I think just amounts to little less than a gorilla beating his chest to intimidate and can just as easily be accomplished with non lethal weapons like Pellet guns.

I don't know where to start; that's the most absurd argument against sports shooting that I've ever heard. I enjoy shooting at cardboard. I enjoy going out in the garden and target shooting with my airsoft guns, I enjoy going to a handgun club in Sweden, and I enjoyed range shooting during my stint in the air force. I enjoy the intellectual aspect, considering all sorts of different factors, and still making a tiny piece of metal go through a 1" spot of paper.

I've never once got the impression that shooting makes me intimidating, at least not outside certain elements of training in the military where that was the whole point of the exercise...

Airsoft guns and air weapons are fun, no doubt about it, but they're fun in different ways. There's no recoil, so it's one less thing to think about. They have much shorter ranges, too; with a rifle I can easily hit a target at 200 metres, while an airsoft gun will have dropped the BB onto the ground after 50.

It is unfortunate that many of the people who are vehemently opposed to firearms - like you - simply don't take the time to understand what they're talking about. It's easy to decide that all guns are without exception evil, but that simply isn't the reality of it.

Learn a bit about guns. Go shooting a couple of times, learn what shooters are talking about. Look into the statistics, talk to police officers. Find out how gun statistics relate to knife statistics, to violent crime, to crime in general. Find out how many non-accidental firearms deaths are from legally held firearms. Find out how firearms work, find out how shootings work in physiological and psychological terms. Do you really think most licensed gun owners go out looking for people to shoot? Do you really think those who have been forced to shoot someone actually enjoyed it?

Your gut tells you that people shouldn't need weapons, and that violence is bad. That's fine, and a laudable gut feeling to have. But without objective information and at least a basic understanding of both sides of the debate, it's simply not a useful standpoint. Learn a bit more about the debate, and I'll be very happy to discuss it.

Oh, and look at sports. A huge wodge of sports grew out of combat and weapons. Javelin, fencing, archery... So where's the harm in acknowledging that shooting has a space as a legitimate sport?

Cogito:

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

I'm a Brit and i have higher :) mwhahahahhaha
-i dont need guns anyway, i can kill you with my brain :D

on a more serious note your totally right about the loudmouth retard bit :)

ah, will you make my head explode with the power of your huge mind? because i'm wearing a hat, it won't be pretty to have my brain goo all over my nice hat...
an interesting fact, my iq was two points higher a year ago, before i got my xbox 360...weird huh?

awmperry:

huntedannoyed:

awmperry:

There's vermin control, sports shooting, hobby shooting, hunting at the weekend or on holiday, self-defence, and simply shooting for the fun of it.

I like how your first example for the usefullness of guns is "Vermin control." Those arn't your rats to shoot! Second, if nobody had guns, there would be no need to defend yourself with one. Police officers in England dont wear them.
Sport and hobby shooting may be a valid point, but I think just amounts to little less than a gorilla beating his chest to intimidate and can just as easily be accomplished with non lethal weapons like Pellet guns.

They aren't my rats to shoot? Would I be right in assuming that you live in a town?

Let's say you're a farmer. Foxes come and eat your chickens. Are you seriously suggesting that a farmer isn't within their rights to shoot the fox?

Or what about rabbits? When the rabbit population gets too high, a disease called myximatosis emerges (look up "malthusian checks"), as a natural mechanism to reduce the rabbit population. We have lots of rabbits in the garden at home, and myxi is a horrible way to die. It's much better to cull the rabbits when they start getting numerous, thus reducing the rabbit population and minimising the incidence of disease.

Moving on... If nobody had guns, what about knives? If someone runs at me with an axe, is it fair to expect me to wait for them to get close so I can defend myself with my bare hands? The rule of thumb is that if someone is within 21 feet with a bladed weapon, they're able to stab you before you've had time to draw a handgun, and once you're in a knife fight you've got to be pretty skilled to survive it. In other words, unless you carry a knife - which is illegal in Britain if the blade's long enough to be an effective weapon - you basically have no chance.

Or do you want to ban knives as well? Then someone will use a bottle as a weapon. Seriously, we humans are pretty resourceful in finding ways to kill each other. The belief that "If we ban guns, nobody will have guns, so nobody will need guns" is a spectacularly naive one. Drugs are already banned in most places, yet people still manage to dope themselves to the gills. One of the defining characteristic about criminals is that they don't care about laws...

Oh, and police in the UK do carry guns; indeed, the proportion of AFOs (Authorised Firearms Officers) has been rising over the last decade, and routinely armed patrols are becoming standard in some areas.

Sport and hobby shooting may be a valid point, but I think just amounts to little less than a gorilla beating his chest to intimidate and can just as easily be accomplished with non lethal weapons like Pellet guns.

I don't know where to start; that's the most absurd argument against sports shooting that I've ever heard. I enjoy shooting at cardboard. I enjoy going out in the garden and target shooting with my airsoft guns, I enjoy going to a handgun club in Sweden, and I enjoyed range shooting during my stint in the air force. I enjoy the intellectual aspect, considering all sorts of different factors, and still making a tiny piece of metal go through a 1" spot of paper.

I've never once got the impression that shooting makes me intimidating, at least not outside certain elements of training in the military where that was the whole point of the exercise...

Airsoft guns and air weapons are fun, no doubt about it, but they're fun in different ways. There's no recoil, so it's one less thing to think about. They have much shorter ranges, too; with a rifle I can easily hit a target at 200 metres, while an airsoft gun will have dropped the BB onto the ground after 50.

It is unfortunate that many of the people who are vehemently opposed to firearms - like you - simply don't take the time to understand what they're talking about. It's easy to decide that all guns are without exception evil, but that simply isn't the reality of it.

Learn a bit about guns. Go shooting a couple of times, learn what shooters are talking about. Look into the statistics, talk to police officers. Find out how gun statistics relate to knife statistics, to violent crime, to crime in general. Find out how many non-accidental firearms deaths are from legally held firearms. Find out how firearms work, find out how shootings work in physiological and psychological terms. Do you really think most licensed gun owners go out looking for people to shoot? Do you really think those who have been forced to shoot someone actually enjoyed it?

Your gut tells you that people shouldn't need weapons, and that violence is bad. That's fine, and a laudable gut feeling to have. But without objective information and at least a basic understanding of both sides of the debate, it's simply not a useful standpoint. Learn a bit more about the debate, and I'll be very happy to discuss it.

Oh, and look at sports. A huge wodge of sports grew out of combat and weapons. Javelin, fencing, archery... So where's the harm in acknowledging that shooting has a space as a legitimate sport?

i think the easiest way to solve the problem with the knives that you mentioned is to learn karate...that or teleportation...one of the two...

AntiThom:
What we really need to worry about is the government taking our guns! Obama and Biden are the dynamic duo of gun control and prohibition! Don't let the man fool you, and don't shrug it off either.. it happened in the UK and in Australia, and it can happen here if we let it! Tyranny is a few well targeted pieces of legislation away!

EDIT: Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

You might be a redneck if you said that

You can't forget the impending zombie apoc., the minute we forget, that's the second they rise. They're like the Spanish Inquisition. No one expects them. Their chief weapon is surprise...

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

You know, I guess you're right.
BRAINS...

ygetoff:

Cogito:

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

I'm a Brit and i have higher :) mwhahahahhaha
-i dont need guns anyway, i can kill you with my brain :D

on a more serious note your totally right about the loudmouth retard bit :)

ah, will you make my head explode with the power of your huge mind? because i'm wearing a hat, it won't be pretty to have my brain goo all over my nice hat...
an interesting fact, my iq was two points higher a year ago, before i got my xbox 360...weird huh?

Lol, evidence that console gamers are *snip* nicer *snip* than pc gamers :)

Cogito:

ygetoff:

Cogito:

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

I'm a Brit and i have higher :) mwhahahahhaha
-i dont need guns anyway, i can kill you with my brain :D

on a more serious note your totally right about the loudmouth retard bit :)

ah, will you make my head explode with the power of your huge mind? because i'm wearing a hat, it won't be pretty to have my brain goo all over my nice hat...
an interesting fact, my iq was two points higher a year ago, before i got my xbox 360...weird huh?

Lol, evidence that console gamers are *snip* nicer *snip* than pc gamers :)

well then again, the new iq test was on facebook after a full day of brain-deadening school, so...you never know,

There are all types of ways to kill people.

BAN THE NUKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And stop hating on the US its getting out of hand.

only the utterly terrified or completely self-loathing own weapons.

I for one don't own a gun, and heres the amazing part... I'M AN AMERICAN! I know it must sound shocking to all of you who constantly ramble on about americans being dumb, fat, gun owning freaks.

But understand this, those who own guns or weapons of any kind are the kind of people who are completely scared of the world and all its people, or their the kind that have these weapons because they feel it makes them have more power over everyone else. I live in Kansas of all the states, you couldn't get more redneck anywhere else. And I've known a lot of people who own guns and rifles some are good people, some are crazy people, most sound like this guy who started the thread, utterly terrified. Plus I find it funny how if it weren't for the government giving the right to have firearms these people wouldn't have guns nor would they be afriad of the government taking them away.

So go ahead talk about how we need to have firearms in every house and that how your a no-ball pussy who needs that pistol/smg/bomb/whatever because it makes you feel like you got a pair. Because I for one don't need a gun to show you how I'm way tougher than you.

P.S. please stop with the whole "americans are assholes" talk. America is not that bad and not everyone born here becomes a dick. Especially you UK folk, you talk like that about america more than enyone else it seems and its getting to be rather tasteless sounding.

(Accidentally pressed the forward button and Firefox didn't save my typing. Urgh.)

To summarize the whole thing, I'll just say I completely agree with The Rogue Wolf's comments.

OK bear with my ranting a bit. It's a recent event that just happened to me, and it demonstrates the fear Australia has to firearms.

I was traveling back to Australia after a trip from my home country, and I was carrying a replica of a flintlock pistol EXAMPLE (I want to dress us as a pirate this Halloween :D). At the luggage check, they scanned my luggage and found it. They were all 'panicky' (for a lack of a better word) about it, and they makes calls and stuff to, like, half the airport or something (I know I'm exaggerating, but it certainly feels that way!). I was going 'It's a model of a flintlock pistol.......you can confiscate it if you want...' but nobody was listening. Eventually I was escorted to get my luggage checked, and I showed them the flintlock pistol. They checked it, and says it's a replica of a firearm and I'm not allowed to have it. The lady told me that if I hadn't declared it they would've had to prosecute me because I was carrying a model of a gun that had been out of use for centuries that is more likely to explode in you hand than actually hitting your intended target, granted that the inaccurate rounds actually hits something, THEN I'll have to spend the next ten seconds (?) fumbling through a whole bunch of stuff to reload the thing!
According to the sheet the lady gave me, even guns used for gaming consoles are banned. I guess that's why it took a damn long time for the Wii Zapper to get here because they somehow realized it doesn't look like a real gun.
Same thing with cigarette lighters that look like guns.
I'm trying to imagine someone robbing a bank with a flintlock pistol......

....Funny thing is I once saw something similar to my flintlock once, somewhere that sells costumes and this one's in a set for a pirate dress-up, only difference is it has a red....thing at the end of the barrel.

That kinda shows you how serious they are. I understand if it's an airsoft of a Glock handgun or something (because there's been a history of people using realistic-looking toy guns to rob a place), but............a flintlock.........a freaking flintlock........I don't mind them taking it but...............man did it have to be a freaking huge commotion?

I think this is an example of 'taking it too far'. I'm quite sure I'm an understanding person....but this case........this really takes the cake...

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

Bad news. There's a lot of loudmouth retards in our country.

You rage you lose.

Guns are stupid. They're killing machines. If you want to shoot for fun, use rubber bullets or a nice b.b. gun.

I don't understand why the Americans are so frightened of there government, they have a damn sight more protection in terms of the constitution than we have in Britain and we don't keep bemoaning the fact that the government want to steal our houses and rape our wives, despite the fact that the British Government are actually doing the former and are no doubt working on legislation for the later.

We have managed to muddle along quite happily without the right to carry assault weapons, .44 Magnums and pump action shotguns. Interestingly and call me on this if Im wrong, one of the few countries that actually kept slaves in a major way is the one place where it's legal for the population to carry firearms.

Australia was built on criminals no proliferation of guns, Japan despite the unpleasantness with China and the over throw of the Samauri using gun powder no proliferation of guns, the UK yeah we are I think at the moment the knife crime capital of Europe however you can't get four kills a sec at 400 yards with a craft knife. The Uk was smart we made the money from slavery, utilised them as workforce but didnt keep them on our shores, we waited until the nineteen fifties to instigate a mass influx of Caribean people,they were coming to fill the work force and normally took the abuse of us stupid whites with good grace... No proliferation of guns. Ireland with secterian religious killings left right and centre, guns lots of guns paid for by American investors who had a romantic notion of the sons of erin fighting against us oppresive brits.

So one of the social factors in this mess is clearly slavery and yes the Uk caused the problem, but we were ssmart enough to farm the problem out to another country but still keep the profit. A phenomena continuing today in call centres right across india!

LyonLee:

ygetoff:

avykins:
Good, you americans cannot even be trusted to handle vegetable peelers. You do not deserve firearms. However on the other hand it is your access to guns that helps keep your population in check thus preventing your stupidity from overrunning the world... come to think of it most americans have the same IQ, gait, smell, volcabulary and voracious appetite as the living dead... *flee*

i find that... slightly offensive. im american, i have an iq of 125.
i have to say that its just the loudmouth retards that make us all look bad.

Bad news. There's a lot of loudmouth retards in our country.

that's true. it's a major problem.
i suppose freedom of speech has it's price.

...redneck.

This is a very touchy subject obviously, and there are two sides to the argument. However, you can put tough gun laws on citizens, and they will follow them. However, the criminals won't, that's why they're criminals, because they don't follow the law. So now you have citizens with no guns, and criminals with guns. Not to mention that it's a clear violation of the Bill of Rights.

Still though, there is a very high murder rate, so something must be done.

rossatdi:

XT:

HAHAHAHA ever had someone try to carjack you?

I have, you know what I did?

I pulled out my Beretta 92FS and stuck it in their face.

You know what they did? They ran away.

What if he'd had a mate. Who'd shot you. I'm insured on my car. If they want it, they can have it. I'd get more money from the insurance than its worth and I've got one of those little tracking things in it anyway that means there'd be a good chance the thief were caught.

Also car jackings account for a small number of robberies compared to muggings. There were more muggings in one quarter in the UK than in a whole year in the US!

I've been mugged twice. No big deal. Once they pulled a knife and I said "fine, here's my wallet". Of course I was scared but I lost in total about £30. I didn't even know that they were a threat until they had me against a wall. I don't think having a gun at my leg would have helped as they probably would have just stolen that.

The other time it was two kids and they didn't have a weapon so I told them to fuck off.

if he had a friend i'd have shot them both in the face and told the police they reached into their pants for what seemed like weapons and i feared for my life.

if he walks up to my car with a gun already in his hand, i'll just waste them before they even get close enough to intimidate me.

Lol I have more weapons then a US Armory. The reason for having Auto-Matic Weapons isn't to Defend yourself from crinimals, But to defend yourself from your Own GOVERNMENT. When the shit goes down and zombies or Revoulution happends, I'll be waiting with an AR-15 and a FS-2000.

I think guns are bad but one aspect a lot of people missed is depressed people owning guns, when I asked my dad why he sold his gun he said do my mom wouldn't shoot herself and where I live the most common deaths are suicide or car accidents. (while if they try to cut themselves or O.D you can rush them to the hospital)