Vigormortis, you would be right about the fact that I don't know what I'm talking about if it weren't for the fact that every one of those places I "assume" stuff, it was responses to what other people have said.

And yes, criminals can be more or less civilized than each other. The idea that all criminals are exactly the same is laughable, criminals just like everyone else are a product of their upbringing and the culture around them. If that culture is like Americas, they're going to be different than if that culture was like in Sweden.

About killing people to keep their identities hidden that was a response. Not something I made up. A response. Go look it up if you want to, it doesn't mean that it was my opinion, or my belief that it happened. I also don't believe not having a gun is a guarantee to get away, especially not in America.

And yes, America IS a violent country. You're not getting ut of that one. Sure, my country HAS been violent, several HUNDRED years ago, it's not anymore. And even that was far from the violent history of America. I don't see how it's relevant. Back when we were the most violent America didn't exist. Should I bring that up? That the whole discussion is moot since America used to not exist?

I never said you needed a gun to enforce your vote. I responded to the nutjobs claiming they need guns to keep their government in check, as if it was some malevolent being out to get them where it hurts the most, and not what they had themselves elected, still subject to the laws of the country. Granted, I don't know how can be changed in the four-year period, and how many laws can be changed to fit their liking, but it would seem unlikely that the government in America could start oppressing their subject just because you didn't have a gun in every home, and every government official sat shaking in their seats, fearing someone will disagree with their decisions and come blowing off heads.

I admit that I was wrong about one thing though. I was under the impression that those were the two choices you had to vote for, after I heard an American say he didn't vote for Obama, but against the other dude, by voting for Obama. It didn't seem like much choice was given.

AntiThom:

rossatdi:

Also, taking guns out of the hands of the population radically decreases their ability to kill each other. Something Americans haven't twigged yet.

WRONG. Gun Control in areas has provennot only to INCREASE violent crimes, but even GUN crimes in general. Why? That's because criminals don't obey laws, dipshit. And taking guns away from law-abiding citizens only makes them easier targets for said criminals. It's a proven fact, wise up.

Oh, it's been proven has it?

Next time give us a reference, because that's grade-a bullshit.

Gun crime is so rare in the UK that every time it happens it's on the news. If someone gets shot here, it's a big deal. Because it hardly ever happens. In the US, dozens are shot every day.

Outlawing guns won't stop criminals, no, but it will give them one hell of a tough time. If they're caught with a gun, bam, arrested. In America? It's allowed. A criminal without a gun and in jail, you're saying, is more of a threat than a lunatic with a gun, on the streets?

Would you give a paedophile a teaching position? Or give a rapist date-rape pills? No. Because it's feuling their crime. Giving a criminal a gun is doing just that.

And in response to your comment about a country with no guns being euphamistic of being castrated... How does not having a gun make you less of a man? Are you so insecure that you only feel like a man when you're able to kill someone, with an unfair advantage, from a distance? Well it's either that, or you a 'GUNZ R KEWL' 10 year old.

Grow up and realise that guns kill people, instead of protecting them.

AntiThom:

rossatdi:

Calm down. You sound like the last person I'd want to have a gun. Also, how many cases of home owners fighting off hordes of gun armed raiders have you heard about in the last month. This isn't the wild west and it's not the apocalypse.

Well then you'd be glad to know that I own 13 firearms, and I've got another one soon to come. I've never had to use any of them in a self defense scenario, and honestly I hope I'll never have to. There's more to the right to bear arms than hunting, sport shooting and self defense, I feel people have forgotten that, you've all been desensitized by modern times. Just don't forget that people will always be people, and that's something not to take lightly.

oh and check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

Hold on, I'm editing that, I just read that through again. You own these mostly because of your right to bear arms you say? You also have the right to buy bread. You gonna go stack up on bread because you can!? You have the right to paint your walls with faeces. You gonna go do it because YOU CAN?!

You have the right to KILL YOURSELF :D

Lonewolfu571:
"No guns = good."

That's the most naive comment I have ever heard! The UNDENIABLE FACT is that THE BAD, CRIMAL GUYS will be using guns and the such to hurt their victims right? So, by taking away the basal right to bear arms you are leaving civilians totally open to be the victims of the gun-wielding criminals who prey on the weak.

Yet if you make sure nobody has guns, NOBODY HAS GUNS :D Criminals won't get them so easily, meaning less and less criminals will have them, stupid! You think every lowlife who wants to hold up a shop for a few dollars to pay for some fucking heroin is going to have the resources to order in illigam shipments of guns to the mexican coast or some shit? No. They wouldn't.

Only the criminal masterminds then wuold have guns.

Ta-daa! Your country wins!

+1000 xp, +500 rep with Europe, and -90% gun crime!

FightThePower:

AntiThom:
Gun Control in areas has provennot only to INCREASE violent crimes, but even GUN crimes in general. Why? That's because criminals don't obey laws, dipshit. And taking guns away from law-abiding citizens only makes them easier targets for said criminals. It's a proven fact, wise up.

Funny you should say that because according to offical figures the murder rate in the US is 200 times greater than in Japan. In Japan no private citizen can buy a handgun legally.

Also, just because a citizen is 'law-abiding' doesn't mean they are incapable of murder - the majority of murders are so called 'passion killers' who just get so enraged they end up killing someone out of heat of the moment. Anyone, law-abiding or not, can do this; taking away guns prevents this from happening, naturally. There was a case where a police sheriff (more than just a respectable citizen, I'm sure) ended up shooting his family out of heat of the moment.

I live in the UK where we aren't allowed to buy guns without a proper license and I am very glad of that fact; our police officers aren't given guns either (with the exception of the armed response units, obviously).

And avykins, that's an awfully big brush you're using there.

Haham yeah. I love his 'proven' facts he is stating. Apparently it's proven that gun control is the main cause of gun crime!all because criminals know they can't get their hands on it. Yeah, like all criminals are gonna risk 10 years in prison out of SPITE. But no matter WHAT we saw WE will never Be RIGHT will we NOW.

Sigh....the state with the lowest crime rate in New England (vermont) also has the least gun control...Michigan passed right to carry laws, and it's crime rate fell, and has stayed lower for 6 years... When the Supreme Court overrode the handgun ban in Illinois, Obama's home state, the crime rate fell..I've printed the Proof you claim doesn't exist over and over again. I'd appreciate it if you would bother reading the proof rather than ignoring it.

Oh, and Ago Iterum, if crooks weren't willing to risk 10 years in prison out of spite, they wouldn't be shooting people much, now would they?

WTF happened to the Zombies in this thread?

(Edit: it seems they were annihilated by gun control people. Ironic, that.)

sheic99:

RetiarySword:

sheic99:

FightThePower:

AntiThom:
Gun Control in areas has provennot only to INCREASE violent crimes, but even GUN crimes in general. Why? That's because criminals don't obey laws, dipshit. And taking guns away from law-abiding citizens only makes them easier targets for said criminals. It's a proven fact, wise up.

Funny you should say that because according to offical figures the murder rate in the US is 200 times greater than in Japan. In Japan no private citizen can buy a handgun legally.

Also, just because a citizen is 'law-abiding' doesn't mean they are incapable of murder - the majority of murders are so called 'passion killers' who just get so enraged they end up killing someone out of heat of the moment. Anyone, law-abiding or not, can do this; taking away guns prevents this from happening, naturally. There was a case where a police sheriff (more than just a respectable citizen, I'm sure) ended up shooting his family out of heat of the moment.

I live in the UK where we aren't allowed to buy guns without a proper license and I am very glad of that fact; our police officers aren't given guns either (with the exception of the armed response units, obviously).

And avykins, that's an awfully big brush you're using there.

That being stated, what prevents the "passion killers" from using a knife.

RetiarySword:

A law won't stop a criminal, but it makes their job harder. How many people from the UK know anyone who could supply you with anything like a pistol. Shotguns farmers have, air rifles a few people have them but not a fucking semi-auto pistol! In your country most people have guns under their pillows. I've never seen an illegal gun in my life. The fact that I haven't sort of proves it works.

I ask you how many crimes have you witnessed? And don't be stupid and use generalizations and stereotypes to advance an argument. Only idiots keep guns under their pillows. Haven't you ever heard of a gun cabinet or a lock?

Well its kind of hard to ban most knifes as there more tools than weapons. Also I have witnessed a few. Couple of muggings, a few fights. Nothing too bad. Also a gun in a household is still a gun what someone has access to.
Picture this; a guy splits up with his girl, maybe she was cheating on him. He gets angry and decides to visit the guy. He takes his gun not to shoot, but to mess with him a bit. There is a problem, can you spot it?

Why would anyone need a firearm anyway? I've never heard of any crime being stopped by a victim holding a gun.

Well, I think it's about 48 out of 50 states allow you to carry a concealed firearm with a license. Muggers don't necessarily need a gun, obviously because you have seen a few. This guy has http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ

Guns are deterrents, the knowledge that they are in a home can stop a robbery. Someone broke into my uncle's house. He heard him and grabbed his shotgun, cocked it. Burglar heard the gun and left. 2 examples for you.

Fair enough for home defence do ward off an agressor. But for you to get to that firearm before an intruder getting far must of been easy to access. Thats my point, people can sort of use them for protection but people who have less noble means could as easily aqquire one.

Ago, you appear to think of yourself as terribly clever, with new points, but every argument that you have come up with has already been disproven in this thread. Allow me to demonstrate

Yet if you make sure nobody has guns, NOBODY HAS GUNS :D Criminals won't get them so easily, meaning less and less criminals will have them, stupid! You think every lowlife who wants to hold up a shop for a few dollars to pay for some fucking heroin is going to have the resources to order in illigam shipments of guns to the mexican coast or some shit? No. They wouldn't.

Speaking of heroin, thats illegal,you WILL get arrested for having it on your person, and will be sent to jail for attempting to sell. Has that cut down on drug rates? Answer: the reverse is true. Illegal drug rates have slowly increased over the last 20 years in America, despite the fact that they have been banned, and that you must wait for "Illigam shipments of gu.... heroin to the mexican coast or some shit"

The smuggling argument is valid, because if we cant stop 12 million people (Who are a hell of a lot more obvious than a crate of guns) than how are we going to stop firearms getting across the border? And this criminal doesnt need to wait on the mexican border and do it himself, through the wonders of capitalistic crime someone else will, and will bring lots of guns, and then sell them directly to him.

Funny you should say that because according to offical figures the murder rate in the US is 200 times greater than in Japan. In Japan no private citizen can buy a handgun legally.

If you had bothered to read the previous posts, you would have learned that Japan is a relatively unique culture that we really can't compare to western civilizations. As far as guns in Japan are concerned, private citizens have never been allowed to own guns, and the Japanese are very good at seeing what gets into their country. They have an strange (to us Westerners) social system in which any action that harms the group brings intense shame upon the family, and have a very stringent code of honor.

Time to use sounds to show what would be a great solution:

NYEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

*high pitch whistle*

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

*sound of people dying*

There.

I am indifferent on this subject, as gun control does have merit however I disagree that guns should be banned for reasons stated. The unfortunate scenario is we have fools whom have no right to bear arms doing so as if it is some sort of entitlement. The misconception people have that guns kill is indeed that, for in reality people kill, guns are merely a means to the end. Practically anything may be turned into a weapon if used for such as excessive force to one's head can cause death and it does not require a bullet to damage the skull.

Nevertheless I am something of a weapon fanatic and have every intention of purchasing various weaponry be the medieval or modern as nothing beyond a collectors item, although I fully intend to learn the proper techniques to use them effectively. I have mildly taught myself how to wield a sword and already know how to use a gun. I believe I should have the ability to purchase either however if the Government wants to make it difficult I will not oppose them per se, so long as they are obtainable.

I never really understood why (about half of the) Americans find it so important that they can legally own devices that are specifically designed to murder people. Ah well, it probably has something to do with American culture. Every country has its oddities.

Guns serve more purposes than just killing people. A gun can be used to go hunting, for example. Farmers use guns to keep wild animals away from their herds, crops, etc. Thus, that argument is flawed. In fact, what you are saying is that no one is allowed to own swords, knives, etc, since all of those probably had their origins in killing human beings. The only "weapon" we're allowed to own is a spear or a bow, I guess, since that probably came about for hunting purposes...

The reason why the right to bear arms is important to Americans is because, back in the 1700s, we had a bunch of people across the seas trying to tell us what to do, when we weren't even considered in the parliamentary proceedings. I wonder what country that was...(obvious sarcasm.)

The high murder rate in the US is more likely due to social issues than anything else. We've got A LOT of different kinds of people here, and they clash sometimes. There's also a large gap between the poor and the wealthy. Americans also tend to be more assertive of their own personal rights and desires. If we didn't kill each other with guns, it'd be knives or anything we could get our hands on.

Gun laws will not stop criminals, considering there's a gigantic border with Mexico that a child could smuggle drugs/guns/people across. It might work in Japan (though I'd argue against this. The Yakuza there is as good as the Mafia is...they don't have to worry about being shot, either.)

Finally. As far as I'm concerned...You foreigners can drop this whole, "Oh, we're better than you" bit. I guarantee the immigration rate here to the US is MANY times higher than what it is in your countries. I think that says enough. (Except, of course, the more realistic and sane Brits and Aussies;)

Bertinan:
Finally. As far as I'm concerned...You foreigners can drop this whole, "Oh, we're better than you" bit. I guarantee the immigration rate here to the US is MANY times higher than what it is in your countries. I think that says enough. (Except, of course, the more realistic and sane Brits and Aussies;)

So, because I'm not American I can't voice my opinion?
Well doesn't that just sound lovely.

In my opinion (which you are getting anyway! :P ) the reason gun control seemingly increases gun crime in certain states is because people can simply acquire their guns from other states, or already have them.

For gun control to work, you would need to put it in place within every state, and even then it would take decades of confiscation to get the majority of the guns out of the publics hands, which just isn't going to happen.

So the problem of a gun culture shall be yours until either everybody shoots each other, or along with the rest of the world the majority of your population is wiped out in nuke fest that will be WW3.

Seriously, Obama is never going to take the majority of the guns away. Assault rifles? Yes, he might. But the public does not and never will need any assault rifles.

axia777:
Seriously, Obama is never going to take the majority of the guns away. Assault rifles? Yes, he might. But the public does not and never will need any assault rifles.

First they came for our Nukes-
and I said nothing.

Then they came for my BB gun-
and there was no-one left to speak for me.

thiosk:

Map of homicide rates, darker = higher. Note the USA's darker shade.

I do hate it when scales are not provided. What are these arbitrary numbers? why is the relative range on the scales change so damn much? each range gets progressively larger, but medium dark blue america could be a five, while lighter blue france could also be a five. Theres lots of wiggle room between each scale, and plenty of artistic freedom allowed to colorize the map as one sees fit.

and 0 - 1, 5 - 10 what? homicides per gun? homicides per million people? Theres seriously only like 10 canadians in all of canada, they obviously aren't bumping into eachother enough to kill eachother. Look! Iraq and sudan are both unreported... but maybe we could just assume those are black at infinity billion +.

Not saying there isn't crime in america. When you make gun control laws, all the law-abiding citizens obey. Criminals don't, and they have a heyday. Owning a gun, or at least being able to own a gun, makes you a citizen, being forcibly disarmed makes you a subject.

I also wondered that. It's from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
And it's homicides by 100,000 people and year.

anti_strunt:

axia777:
Seriously, Obama is never going to take the majority of the guns away. Assault rifles? Yes, he might. But the public does not and never will need any assault rifles.

First they came for our Nukes-
and I said nothing.

Then they came for our AEGIS Cruisers-
and I said nothing.

Then they came for our Tanks-
and I said nothing.

Then they came for our RPGs-
and I said nothing.

Then they came for our Assault Rifles-
and still I said nothing.

Then they came for my BB gun-
and there was no-one left to speak for me.

I really hope that is a joke.....

@ antithom (it wont let me quote for some reason), well it sounds like you are a responsible gun owner, im not sorry at all for my loss of "freedom", as i don't need one, i could buy a gun, but why would i, i don't see any need to own one, but i suppose it is better to have one and never need it, then need one and not have it.

it just sounds like a lot of paranoia to me

well this is no good, if american's wont kill eachother how the hell will we ever get rid of them?

im looking at you china..

The problem with america isn't the legality of guns, although that may have sparked it.

Britain has barely any gun crime. Why? 'cause we have barely any guns. The police armed response groups have them, and the Military has them. There are an extremely rare number of private owners, too.

America, the guns are already in circulation. Even if banned that means that there is some truth in the fact that the criminals would be the only ones to still have them. The guns were never in circulation here in the first place, there's no market for them.

Stricter gun laws would have no effect on Gun crime in america. To lower it you would have to strike guns from the american culture, which is next to impossible to do. Even if they were banned outright, the market for them would still exist.

I wants my guns
(Edit) There would be riots in SD if guns were banned, anarchy would ensue, and all +150 something nukes that we have would be launched at the white house

maffro:
The problem with america isn't the legality of guns, although that may have sparked it.

Britain has barely any gun crime. Why? 'cause we have barely any guns. The police armed response groups have them, and the Military has them. There are an extremely rare number of private owners, too.

America, the guns are already in circulation. Even if banned that means that there is some truth in the fact that the criminals would be the only ones to still have them. The guns were never in circulation here in the first place, there's no market for them.

Stricter gun laws would have no effect on Gun crime in america. To lower it you would have to strike guns from the american culture, which is next to impossible to do. Even if they were banned outright, the market for them would still exist.

that is the smartest thing i've ever heard anyone say on this forum, grats..
and its %100 true, in AU its the same deal

rossatdi:

AntiThom:
What we really need to worry about is the government taking our guns! Obama and Biden are the dynamic duo of gun control and prohibition! Don't let the man fool you, and don't shrug it off either.. it happened in the UK and in Australia, and it can happen here if we let it! Tyranny is a few well targeted pieces of legislation away!

Well that's stupid. It's well documented that guns just get you into more trouble during a zombie apocalypse. Disappointing.

Also, taking guns out of the hands of the population radically decreases their ability to kill each other. Something Americans haven't twigged yet.

couldn't a criminal steal a gun i mean seriusly.creating gun laws is dumb, they say"OH it will decrease gun violence because criminals won't have guns!!!" WRONG would a CRIMINAL really OBEY the law, fuck no why would he care when he is already braking the law. the only thing gun laws do is remove the ability for citizens to defend themselves.

I'll state for the recorder that I personally own at least 4 firearms of various sizing, and while I do occassionally feel the urge to eradicate a large portion of humanity, it is not my guns bidding me to do it, I've had the urge to kill assholes for YEARS before I even got the gun.

And now, wouldn't you know that an American can own guns while holding intense homicidal thoughts and not act on them. And seriously, people from other countries should probably shut their mouths on what americans do, it's really none of your buisness and personally you shouldn't automatically judge all americans, personally I'm rather athletic, I have an IQ of 132, and I speak three diffrent languages.

Anonymouse:
God I love the first guys argument. Getting rid of guns increases gun violence. Because those people are now left without guns. They are weak. So the criminals go for a hour drive to the next state, buy all the fucking guns they want then drive back and take advantage.
For gun control to work it has to be strictly enforced, you are found with a gun you get 10 years in prison no matter your excuse. It also has to be widespread for the above reason.
Yes, having a gun could save your life if you get attacked by 20 street thugs. However did having access to guns save the lives of all those kids are columbine or virginia tech? Also the guy could carry around a canister or two of pepper spray or a tazer or any number of non lethal self defence weapons.
Yes if the students had also had guns they could have taken the shooters out. If the kids daddy did not have such a large stockpile he would never have gotten his hands on it.
If gun control was widespread and actaully enforced then some criminals would obviously still get guns through illegal gun merchants. However it would be alot riskier, alot more hassle and alot more expensive so not just every low level crim will be carring a weapon.

that was full of win **clap** **clap**

Once again, you have no idea how many guns their are per american, hell, most people don't even own a gun, and while there are more guns here than say Britian, most of them are used for, oh my god, hunting! Because we still have land to do it!

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but you don't see me sitting here and bashing all of your countries or anything

about time i'd say.
isn't gun control a standard practice? plus why would you want to keep guns anyways?

ok listen i have a simple solution: special anti-zombie rifles.

and yes "you jacked my (insert drug here) IM GUNNA KILL YOU BITCH... oh... guns are illegal? well, i cant be using one of THOSE then. and killing someone with poison or a knife is impossible." notice how everything after the word "oh" sounded REALLY fucking stupid? yeah, theres a reason for that.

but back to the zombie thing... HOW DO YOU HAVE PROPER ZOMBIE KILLING WITHOUT GUNS!?!? for fucks sake, we dont all have chainsaws, and we arent all god damn ninjas. i know i for one suffer from a distinct lack of katana's at this location. no chainsaws either.

Ranooth:
The second we stop worrying about the zombies is the second it happens!!

Kids, be prepared to kill your parents, otherwise they will eat you brain ;)

First of all QFT.

Now then, I seriously doubt anyone is going to succeed in taking away all our guns. They too ingrained in the history of our country (as in our previous freedom to have them) and I think too much uproar would be caused by trying to take them. It would be like saying "Ok sure you have a president, but next election day there wont be an election, i'm becoming a dictator and or King and you cant stop me". Its just too established for it to come to that.

Secondly it wouldn't stop the criminals from getting them, and there's no point in taking civillian guns if the criminals will have them anyway.

Semper_Fidelis53:
I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but you don't see me sitting here and bashing all of your countries or anything

lol...we dont bash your COUNTRY, just your opinion ;)

(sorry for that but who do you think you are to decide who is allowed to comment on a thread and who isnt?)

There already is gun control in the US. But gun control is meaningless if the culture of a given country is one that does not view guns with the same apprehension as other cultures might.

That's why gun control isn't enforced as strictly in the US as it is in other countries. And why, in many states, gun laws are positively lax. Amusingly, these states are not the ones known for their violent crime.

While a violent culture is rather unpleasant to behold, there's something to be said of the reluctance criminals have with regards to the thought of targeting an armed citizen. Or even the possibility of said citizen being armed.

While AntiThorn's zeal is tiring, even for those who don't entirely disagree with him, the rudeness and disdain that gun control advocates in this thread have shown gun owners and those who disagree with strict gun control in America (please note that American culture is not something that can be changed by insults exchanged over an internet forum) is just as bad.

I'm especially disappointed in those who insult American gun culture from without. Considering the stereotype of Americans as intolerant, belligerent brutes with no regard for other peoples or their opinions, the irony of your behavior should not have escaped you.

At the very least, we try to be hospitable to those whose beliefs are different from us. Even when we're mean, we hold back. (Except for the little kids on Live. They haven't figured out that everyone hates them yet.)

Look at the movie Borat. While Sacha Baron Cohen wanted to reveal latent anti-semitism in America, all he really did was reveal just how tolerant Americans were towards a character we could hardly admire except from the luxury of his own position of irony. And that when people are drunk, we're willing to sing about anything.

Honestly, people were so nice to Borat, even when they were clearly uncomfortable. It's kind of bewildering.

rossatdi:

AntiThom:
What we really need to worry about is the government taking our guns! Obama and Biden are the dynamic duo of gun control and prohibition! Don't let the man fool you, and don't shrug it off either.. it happened in the UK and in Australia, and it can happen here if we let it! Tyranny is a few well targeted pieces of legislation away!

Well that's stupid. It's well documented that guns just get you into more trouble during a zombie apocalypse. Disappointing.

Also, taking guns out of the hands of the population radically decreases their ability to kill each other. Something Americans haven't twigged yet.

Actually, that's not true. Here comes the age old argument. The criminals won't say

"Oh, the Government doesn't want me to get a gun, so I won't." They're gonna get them one way or another.

And if they have guns, and the general populace don't, well, you can probably see what happens here. No chance to defend themselves. (And not to mention that gun ownership is one of our rights)

While I'm American, conservative and definitely an advocate of the second amendment and agree that Obama and Biden aren't likely to be very supportive of gun ownership, I don't think this is the proper forum to discuss a topic like this. One geared more toward politics in general or guns would be better. Of course this is the off-topic portion of the forum, so maybe it is appropriate. Guess it's up to each person to decide.

Oh yeah, and that chart...yes, the US has a darker shade. Two points: 1) the US has a higher population than other areas of the world, so that can account for some of it. 2) There are even darker parts of that chart, and I'll bet private gun ownership isn't legal in those areas.