I wish Hollywood would make a note of this. Yes, the Holocaust was horrible but I can't stand the repeated assault the nation gets for it.

Anyone else share a similar opinion?

Edit- Sorry I messed up the thread title originally.

Doesn't Valkrie portray some germans as good? I can't say for sure as I have yet to watch it.

Brothers in Arms portrays some German townspeople as just being normal people with day to day lives, not as evil Nazis.

Yes, it does. There were quite a few assassination attempts on Hitler, by his own staff and (mainly) the generals. People *should* know that less than (I think it was 15 or 10?) 10/15% (?) of the German people were Nazis, BUT here's the rub. Hannah Ardent's "The Banality of Evil" theory. She was a journalist (I think a journalist, I'm groggy at the moment, so forgive me) who went to the Nuremberg trial and wrote a book.

Basically she was told that everyone there basically said: I was just following orders of Adolf Eichmann. When he came into the stand he was this...small bookish guy with glasses. She had expected something dark and large and comic book-style (for lack of a better word). She surmised in her book that evil doesn't come from billowing capes and a great mastermind, but when it comes right down to it: The individual who does, or doesn't do a particular thing.

Arsen:
Yes, the Holocaust was horrible but I can't stand the repeated assault the nation gets for it.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But, I do see your point in pointing out that the average soldier was not a Nazi. Most fought for their country, really it was the SS that were Nazi. But, you can't deny that the issue of this must be adressed.

It's just the average stereotype. Iraqi people get the same load about suicide bombers.

sneakypenguin:
Doesn't Valkrie portray some germans as good? I can't say for sure as I have yet to watch it.

No. I think it's more like the assassination of Hitler by his own men after they realize he's insane.

bue519:

Arsen:
Yes, the Holocaust was horrible but I can't stand the repeated assault the nation gets for it.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But, I do see your point in pointing out that the average soldier was not a Nazi. Most fought for their country, really it was the SS that were Nazi. But, you can't deny that the issue of this must be adressed.

True. However I personally feel that the majority of people should as a whole, be presented with a country's history from more standpoints, not just the most "well-known" within the average mindset.

Overall, it is a sterotype in some regards, yet it's a sterotype that I feel has been abused in many cases.

blindey:
Yes, it does. There were quite a few assassination attempts on Hitler, by his own staff and (mainly) the generals. People *should* know that less than (I think it was 15 or 10?) 10/15% (?) of the German people were Nazis, BUT here's the rub. Hannah Ardent's "The Banality of Evil" theory. She was a journalist (I think a journalist, I'm groggy at the moment, so forgive me) who went to the Nuremberg trial and wrote a book.

Basically she was told that everyone there basically said: I was just following orders of Adolf Eichmann. When he came into the stand he was this...small bookish guy with glasses. She had expected something dark and large and comic book-style (for lack of a better word). She surmised in her book that evil doesn't come from billowing capes and a great mastermind, but when it comes right down to it: The individual who does, or doesn't do a particular thing.

Quoted for truth.

thats true i have a german friend-girl and she only has one gas chamber in her house, damn it i feel ashamed now, but yeah youre pretty much right.

True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

I had a motivational speaker come to my high school last year, I stopped listening after she said all Germans supported Hitler and were Nazis. It was ironic as one of her points was not to make generalizations about people based on their heritage.

while we're on the subject can we at least agree that not all Nazis were evil and that many found themselves in their ranks for countless reasons i.e safety, fear, genuine belief etc?

asiepshtain:
True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

No they are not. That is without compassion, mercy, or forgiveness. History does not owe anyone nor does it need to point fingers.

The other's were defending their homeland and had no knowledge of the actual murders taking place. They were too busy fighting several armies to notice.

Adam Jenson:
while we're on the subject can we at least agree that not all Nazis were evil and that many found themselves in their ranks for countless reasons i.e safety, fear, genuine belief etc?

This again, is another generalization made about Germany. People look at them as a group because of the whole "dominating power" ordeal and fail to overall see it 50/50 per the Jews and Germans. Sorry folks, but the quantity of murders doesn't fall towards greater sympathy. Even then Russia lost way more than anyone else combined. Why can't there be a memorial for the humanity over one group?

No, I do not believe in murder, however I will not subjegate a country which has one of the most brilliant cultures mankind has ever seen, to the modern description that they have a price to pay. They've paid it in plentiful amounts and now it's time to get over that age old "fact". The Germans are equally justified if you look deeper into history.

The Prussian Empire, Bismarck, The Landknechts, the tribes which fought the Romans, music, ale, kingdoms...

Germany is more than the Holocaust.

asiepshtain:
True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Most Germans at the time didn't even know about the mass murders.

Oh, I think this needs to be said too.
Not all Germans deny the Holocaust!
I got in an hour-long argument about this with some stupid kid that said this based on something he saw in Family Guy.
This kid's in advanced classes, too.

asiepshtain:
It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

In a war that happened TWO GENERATIONS AGO.

Or are you seriously implying that my 25-year-old friend in Germany was somehow implicit in the Nazi party's rise to power in the mid-1930s?

I am sick and tired of everyone thinking all Germans were bad. Think of it this way, America fought Vietnam and they considered all Americans evil. Do you think of yourselves as evil? Didn't think so.

And a good chunk of the people who DID fight for Germany in WWII didn't even know the concentration camps existed.

On the accountability of Germany's accountability to the rise of the Nazi Party.
It seems that all humans have 20/20 hindsight but are you all seriously expecting an entire nation, hit the hardest by the great depression and even before then humiliated by all of Europe in a War they truly believed was to defend the homeland, could possibly predict what was going to happen? Nobody can see into the future and when your desperate you will go for anything that offers at least some stability. It's human nature.

It's dammed annoying that people still believe that all Germans were- ARE Nazi's, these morons should be locked away from the rest of society for all eternity lest they pollute any one else's minds with their idiotic drivel, like the motivational speaker that was mentioned in an above post, how many people do you think bought into their idiocy and began believing all Germans to be evil, and may even go on to teach their child to believe the same thing? And how many of them do you think would listen to you if you tried to explain to them that they're wrong?

I for one met somebody like this once, and as soon as I tried to explain that they were wrong, what do I get? "NAZI! GO BACK TO GERMANY YOU NAZI F*****!" I, of course, clocked the moron on the right side of his fat pimply face, and watched grinning as the stereotyping dumbass ran back home to get his mommy to kiss his cheek and then troll some backwater forum about how much he hates Germany. What else could I do? These kind of morons can't be reasoned with. The only way to shut them up is with violence or by locking them in a dark room with no food or water until the muffled yells stop, and I didn't exactly have a dark room and a lock handy, so...

Band of Brothers did a pretty good job with this. (Reruns on History Channel, like, every three months.)

blindey:
Yes, it does. There were quite a few assassination attempts on Hitler, by his own staff and (mainly) the generals. People *should* know that less than (I think it was 15 or 10?) 10/15% (?) of the German people were Nazis, BUT here's the rub. Hannah Ardent's "The Banality of Evil" theory. She was a journalist (I think a journalist, I'm groggy at the moment, so forgive me) who went to the Nuremberg trial and wrote a book.

Basically she was told that everyone there basically said: I was just following orders of Adolf Eichmann. When he came into the stand he was this...small bookish guy with glasses. She had expected something dark and large and comic book-style (for lack of a better word). She surmised in her book that evil doesn't come from billowing capes and a great mastermind, but when it comes right down to it: The individual who does, or doesn't do a particular thing.

Good post.

One quick note, though: it wasn't Nuremberg -- Eichmann was tried in Israel in the 60s.

-- Alex

I don't like Hollywood banking on WWII but I liked Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator". Maybe producer's/directors are afraid of backlash from the general public or sensitive Jewish community in case they portray Germans as anything but Nazis?

asiepshtain:

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Are you suggesting that we blame every single American for the deaths of civilians in Iraq, or every Israeli person for the mistreatment of Palestinians?
Hell, lets blame all Russians for the persecution of priests in the USSR.
Oh! I know! It's my fault Fallout 3 is banned in Australia, I'm to blame for the proposed filter for Australian internet!

Hitler used People to get into Power, and then started changing things to stay in power, then started Wars to get more power, and killed people who got in his way, in fact he killed people for revenge of failed plots to kill him, and anyone who stood up to him, on any level, if he said charge down the middle with all our forces into there heavily fortified positions and the general Objected, im pretty certain that the general in Question would have been Shot,

lots of Germans fought for there country, and eventually it came down to them being fearful of what would happen to them or there Family's if they Refused

in fact He shot a Representative of Himmler, and had Himmler himself arrested because he was trying open up Surrender Negotiations with the Allies in the final days of the war

It bugs me that such a stereotype exists. My nephews have played games like call of duty and medal of honor and they honestly believe all germans are evil.

If anyone wants to blame the average German for the genocide I'd suggest they take a look at what their culture has done. Exterminating entire civilizations in northern, central and southern America, enslaving huge quantities of people from Africa, bombing civilian centers, exterminating pagans, practically enslaving women, etc.

The things countries do are done by the elite who use propaganda to get the commoners on their side, it's the elite that are to blame for the actions of nations, not the soldiers or civilians.

And yes, I think the new movie coming out is going to butcher history and will be completely awful.

Yes, I always feel bad when I see all the troops looking evil and stuff, I always feel bad killing them.

One war film that I find non-biased in its portrayal of Germans is Saints and Soldiers. Anyone who's more interested in the physchology of World War Two as opposed to the action should check it out.

Not to change the topic too much, but I feel the German perspective is sorely missed from World War II games. Here's something that could put a fresh spin on that age-old war: Have it from the perspective of someone supposedly "evil", but is actually just trying to get by, in a hard time, the only way they know how. The depiction of innocent Germans in WWII is bizarrely missing from almost all forms of media.

Ummm... Schindler's list anyone. Great movie.

SuperFriendBFG:

asiepshtain:
True, but, and this is one huge fucking but...

While not all Germans belonged to the Nazi party, and obviously not all of them were with the SS. They all share the moral responsibility of allowing the Nazi party to rise to power. They all share the moral responsibility of the silent concession of the murder of millions of people. Not just Jews, also intellectuals, gays, communists, the disabled and many more.

It is true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they are all to be held accountable for the crimes of their state.

Most Germans at the time didn't even know about the mass murders.

THANK YOU! Why do so many people not realize this? They just say "well, the Germans should have prevented Hitler from gaining power" and don't stop to consider the circumstances. The German economy at the time was horrendous. They were easily one of, if not the worst, hit by the Depression. Hitler came along and offered so many promises about how he would fix things. How he would turn the economy around.

Tell me, if you were a hobo on the street and a man asked you to give him directions to a school in exchange for some money to buy yourself a few decent meals, what would you do? I'm sure you would give him the directions without a second thought, completely oblivious to the fact that the man plans to blow it up.

Really, Hitler didn't say "Vote for me and I'll kill all the Jews and minorities and start a war even more devastating than WWI! It will be great!" He said "Vote for me and our country will become strong again. Vote for me and you won't have to worry about your children going to bed without dinner because you can't afford to buy food." By the time Hitler's genocidal, power-hungry side started to show, it was too late. In addition, many didn't even KNOW about the concentration camps and mass slaughter until the end of the war. Hell, freaking Erwin Rommel, one of the greatest German commanders during the war, didn't even learn about the genocide until well into the conflict. If such an important German officer didn't even know about what Hitler was really up to, how the hell do you expect the lowly grunts and civilians to have known?

Ugh...It annoys me when people pull that "The Germans should have known better!!" shit like they all had the ability to read Hitler's mind and magically know what was going to happen.

Elhueno:
Ummm... Schindler's list anyone. Great movie.

and in the near future Valykrie, which will depict the attempted Hitler assassination performed by his own men.

Not all Germans where Nazi's but they were all Nazi enablers. And Enablers suck! Thankfully they still make decent cars