For my fellow "marriage shy" men.

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I won't go into long explanations for the people this thread isn't for. The ones who I'm speaking to know exactly what I'm talking about, and know this is for them, and I highly doubt that someone in my position doesn't have a few men in the same boat on a gaming forum in 2013.

Anyway, we get a lot of crap thrown our way, but this made me feel good, thought I'd make a few peoples day by sharing. The video is about four minutes. And I never thought I'd be positively linking to something on Fox, but there you go.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/2517272740001/are-men-boycotting-marriage/

Edit: To give a bit more personal input to maybe get the ball rolling, my favourite bit was Dr Smiths face about a minute in when the bluepill on the left said [in response to: Men aren't marrying because it's a horrible deal] "That still doesn't absolve men of the responsibility to stop complaining about how the cards are stacked against them and man up".

Out-fucking-standing.

Leave it to Fox to make such a sensationalist headline.

Whether or not marriage is right for someone is a very personal thing. Until very recently, society didn't give men or women much of a choice in this. Your expected "path" was to marry, no other options there. But now it's more of a choice, and I think it makes sense some people would choose to not marry. The fact that there's a discrepancy between men and women who are interested in the idea of marriage I don't think is a "boycott," as their headline stupidly says. I much agree with the psychologist--society is really dumping on men in ways they don't dump on women, and because women's rights is still such a fresh issue that isn't totally resolved it's seen as "okay."

And why do you think men feeling it's a raw deal isn't a legitimate complaint? And why on earth do you think they should marry against their better judgement? If someone doesn't want to marry, they shouldn't marry. If he isn't sure about it, then it isn't going to be a happy marriage and we should not be encouraging him to go through with it unless he's comfortable with the decision. If we were talking about women being skittish about getting married, and were telling them to "woman up" and "accept those responsibilities" we would sound like horrible people.

Though I do disagree with the psychologist on the thing about single mothers, I think severely misunderstands what's going on with them. They aren't trying to use the government to "replace" a man, it's that they are now free to exit a relationship (which, in the case of two of my cousins were abusive relationships) and take the child and raise them away from that. One of my cousins is now married to another man, and the other is just now exiting her life of drugs and partying to have a job and be a proper mother to her daughter. For her, chasing guys was her excuse for not being successful. She followed her abusive baby-daddy to jail and kept going out with him there, eventually dumped him and found another guy in the same jail who she was convinced would make everything better...it was a mess.

But finally (and luckily before he was released), she realized how stupid this was and decided to get up on her own legs and walk. Once she stopped chasing guys, she was able to focus on helping herself out. She gave up heroin, she gave up wild parties, and she got her first real job in five years. Now she isn't necessarily opposed to the idea of getting together again, but at this point she's still sorting out herself in many ways, so she isn't exactly holding her breath for a guy, either.

Relying on the government is simply a happenstance of being in a less-than-ideal situation. And in some cases, being with a guy is not going to solve everything. In fact, it could make it worse. I think dumping on single parents for relying upon welfare is a terrible thing to do. You don't know what brought them into this situation, you don't know what sort of spouses have been involved. So unless you want to tell my cousins they should have stayed with their abusive boyfriends, let's stop dumping on single parents and keep the perspective in check.

You watch stuff like this and wonder how any same human could write off men's rights activism as simply a defensive reaction to feminism.

Reginald D' Hunter has an excellent bit of standup on this very subject, it's on youtube somewhere but alas, I cannot find it.

Lilani:
snip

I think you've misunderstood where he stands on the issue.
The "Out-fucking-standing" was sarcastic, I believe.

I also don't think she was dumping on single mothers at all there. What she said was very general but the gist I got from it was,
"They don't want a man for the sake of being with a man and that's okay, there are alternatives, such as welfare."
Although, like I say, her statement was so general anything we take from it will be mostly interpretive on our parts.

"Man up, responsibility is it's own reward!"... seriously? I'm sorry, Calvin's Dad, but "it builds character" is not a good reason to get married.

Yeah Lilani, you've *completely* misread what I'm saying here. Seriously, is it THAT unclear that I'm WITH the good doctor on this and am totally behind my fellow mans right to not get boned in the marriage system?

Anyway, with that said, I think the story about your cousins completely disqualifies you from the chat about single motherhood, I have to say. Let me just be clear, I'm not disrespecting you or disrespecting your cousins. That's one fuck of a bee-hive and I really don't have to inclination to poke one of those today.

But that said, that's one very understandable but very potent bias. The fact is, your cousins(and I'm sorry but what in the christ is a drug addict doing deciding to have a baby? I can't sit on that. Really? No offence to you, but REALLY!?) are fringe cases to say the least and are in no way representative of the *fact* that given the way the welfare system works in both the US and the UK, being a single mum is just a plain old more financially sensible option for them then giving up their access to welfare stuff because they have another income living with them. Now of course there is nuance aplenty here, but there are a lot more people that are living according to the situation I've laid out then the situation you've laid out.

Just saying.

Also, you say men aren't "boycotting" marriage and you're right, since a boycott suggests a certain organised effort, but things like the MRA movements and MGTOW(Men Going Their Own Way) are gaining real momentum and more and more men really are starting to look at the situation, see it for what it is (which is a bum deal), and either consciously or sub-consciously turn their backs on it.

And I reckon I'm not the only one that thinks like I do on this forum. Many won't say anything though and I don't want them to feel bad about that. Fact is, the bit the Dr said at the end about men not being listened to is completely right. If you're not very careful about what you say, and rather seasoned at arguing your case, you'll either be painted as a regressive borderline socially retarded man-child, or a straight up anti-feminist misogynist.

I'm really surprised, what with the amount of people growing up in single-parent houses nowadays, that the `they just do it for money` misconception is still about. Whatever, that's their opinion.

OT: Get married or don't.
I'm not particularly fussed about marriage, my boyfriend probably wants to get married more than I do. We already live together and do everything a married couple do, so I'm not in any rush. It's not an important life goal for me, and I think more and more people are feeling that way.

Oh, and if you don't want to get married you should probably be open about that from the beginning of a relationship, and don't let anyone pressure you to do it. That's just silly.

Phasmal:
I'm really surprised, what with the amount of people growing up in single-parent houses nowadays, that the `they just do it for money` misconception is still about. Whatever, that's their opinion.

OT: Get married or don't.
I'm not particularly fussed about marriage, my boyfriend probably wants to get married more than I do. We already live together and do everything a married couple do, so I'm not in any rush. It's not an important life goal for me, and I think more and more people are feeling that way.

Oh, and if you don't want to get married you should probably be open about that from the beginning of a relationship, and don't let anyone pressure you to do it. That's just silly.

I imagine me and you are in the same situation, I've been with my Mrs for over 5 years and we're married in every important way, a ritual wouldn't change anything, but she's really into it and TBH, I'll probably marry her. If we weren't legit we wouldn't have the relationship we have now. But house first, so I figure waiting the 8 or so years that'll be by then means she's earned the right to buy me an expensive watch to trade for the expensive ring if she really wants to =p

As for the 'misconception...' part of your post.

Well, it's not really a misconception if it happens all the time. Besides, you're looking at it from the wrong angle, but that might be because, understandably, you don't have a male perspective.

Its about risk vs reward. If you and your boyfriend get married, you hold all the cards. No Fault divorce laws mean that at any time, quite literally on a whim, you can end the marriage. Which means at that point you have his life in your hands, meaning the house, kids, his future earning potential... There are a huge number of men out there that have done nothing wrong and been utterly ruined because they made a bad call and failed to take into account that a lot of women change when they marry and they made a bad call, so she ended the marriage, meanwhile he has to basically rebuild his life while she sits pretty with the house, the kids, support payments, alimony...

Now, will every woman use her powers for evil? Of course not, nobody is saying this. But the point is the risk *exists*, and it's an awful risk because marriages don't actually give a man anything he can't get just by maintaining a healthy relationship. That's the crux of it.

And while you may think 'well then, if you don't want to get married just don't', as you can see here, there are people out there that will downright insult a man for not jumping into that shark tank.

I don't really understand your greivance. Is it that you feel discriminated against because you aren't married?

Retrograde:

snip.

1) Boyfriend could also divorce me too.
2) We both share everything anyway, so us even breaking up would be a big fucked up mess of who gets what
3) Prenups are a thing.
4) You can't complain about welfare AND child support. Kid's gotta eat somehow. One or the other.

Seriously, if either of us were that worried, we'd get a prenup. Sure it's not romantic, but neither is life. =P

I know lots of single mothers. I was raised by a single mother. Needless to say, not one of them just kicked their man to the curb because it's soooooo easy to be a single mother. A lot of them just happened to have had failed relationships, it happens.
And do some young girls think getting a baby is an easy way to get a house? Yeah, but when I was on the verge of becoming homeless and had a meeting with an authority, the people there didn't want to know unless I was pregnant. So... yeah, systems fucking up the people more than the other way round IMO.

I have a sneaking suspicion you and I might be on different sides of some kind of fence here. It's cool, I don't mind disagreeing with people.

EDIT: Though I will hold my hand up to some ignorance on divorce, never really having had experience with it before. My parents divorce was messed up but the actual division of stuff part was fairly simple.

You know what? I'm not getting married. Ever. Not even if I settle down with someone. I mean, currently in Slovenia, the way I know, if you live in an extramarital relationship for 2 years, it's legally treated the same as marriage is, with the same rights and responsibilities. So no need to marry.

I'm not a romantic one. When my parents ask me when I'll settle down and make a family, I tell them that's what obviously they have my sister for, she's happily married and that's great. But I'm not my sister.

I have had a very iffy relationship that's causing bad blood even today, yes, and that might be affecting my romantic interests today, yes, but in the end...

...In the end, maybe I don't want to marry simply because I don't want to marry not out of some paranoid fear that the woman will suck my blood out.

Oh and "it builds character"? You know, every experience does that, and every single living person has a "character". So why the hell should I consider something that "builds character" to be impressive.

SHEEZ.

Phasmal:

EDIT: Though I will hold my hand up to some ignorance on divorce, never really having had experience with it before. My parents divorce was messed up but the actual division of stuff part was fairly simple.

Funny. I have the same experience. It was a bloody mess, but the material stuff was divided cleanly and without much complaints.

Retrograde:
To give a bit more personal input to maybe get the ball rolling, my favourite bit was Dr Smiths face about a minute in when the bluepill on the left said [in response to: Men aren't marrying because it's a horrible deal] "That still doesn't absolve men of the responsibility to stop complaining about how the cards are stacked against them and man up".

I don't know, I thought the woman third from the left talking about what men get out of marriage was even funnier. When she said that, the first thought that hit my mind was "...which you also get in an unmarried cohabiting relationship, which it has been suggested by at least some research that men tend to be much happier in, probably *because* it yields most of the benefits of marriage but without the possibility she'll ruin the rest of your life to the same degree if she decides to leave you. Also, for some bizarre reason, more sex."

Retrograde:

And I reckon I'm not the only one that thinks like I do on this forum. Many won't say anything though and I don't want them to feel bad about that. Fact is, the bit the Dr said at the end about men not being listened to is completely right. If you're not very careful about what you say, and rather seasoned at arguing your case, you'll either be painted as a regressive borderline socially retarded man-child, or a straight up anti-feminist misogynist.

Going on about how fucked up marriage and family courts and all that BS can be to a guy, I'm going to link a couple of things. These are from my home state, though not quote where I'm from. Please do *not* bias yourself because of who is hosting them (this are a great example of some of the points those folks make, so of course they are hosting them, and I don't see why it would somehow be better info if I rehosted this stuff on a different site).

Here's a guardian ad litem (a temporary guardian for children sometimes used in contentious custody cases or where there are allegations of abuse) report regarding a couple in which a woman was abusive towards her husband and children.
Here's a recording of the events of the "incident" that gets referred to in that report.
Here's a copy of the same after some editing.

The judge in that case gave 50/50 joint custody, with the implication of giving Ms Kirk full custody after she had demonstrated that she was undergoing treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder. She eventually got forcibly recused from the case and the case given to another judge. It's worth noting that 5 judges have been involved in what is essentially a divorce and child custody case with an abusive wife and a husband that won't back down so long as there's a legal road left to take. Also worth noting that Mr. Kirk recording that audio bit above has been described as similarly bad to what Ms. Kirk is doing in the recording by at least one of the judges.

This is the newest article I can find about the case, no idea where it went from here, if anywhere: http://www.shrink4men.com/2013/01/17/troubling-update-on-the-colonel-kirk-case/

Personally I find that I don't care about marriage. If I want to spend the rest of my life with someone, I'll just do it. I don't need an expensive ceremony or recognition of the state in order to do that.

The biggest thing I agree with her is in the courts. Equality under the law, but women usually receive preferential treatment, particularly in child custody cases. Being a woman does not preclude you from being a shitty parent and the father might be what's best for the child. He has to fight to prove that and that the mother isn't a good parent. It seems the mother just has to not be a raving lunatic or a drug addict.

Bertylicious:
I don't really understand your greivance. Is it that you feel discriminated against because you aren't married?

Fair question. My grievance is because not only is the entire institute of marriage grossly unfair, but seeing it for what it is and acting accordingly is looked down on in scorn in real world adult circles, sometimes quite strongly. And all I'm really doing here is sharing something thats an outright proclomation of male problems(a very rare thing) in a place that I think it might do some good for one or two others that also get it, and understand where I'm coming from.

Phasmal:

1) Boyfriend could also divorce me too.
2) We both share everything anyway, so us even breaking up would be a big fucked up mess of who gets what
3) Prenups are a thing.
4) You can't complain about welfare AND child support. Kid's gotta eat somehow. One or the other.

1) Very common point, but if he divorces you you're clearly a monster, since he'd still be the one throwing himself in a grinder. And he'd be a brave soul too since now he's leaving you, and nothing makes a woman vindictive like being dumped. It's not like he can take the house and kids and kick you out.
2) And you're a fair lady and a scholar. But your refusal you flex your muscles as the legal superior in a marriage doesn't change your status as the legal superior in the marriage.
3) And they protect what you both had upon going in, but you know what's much trickier then getting a prenup? Actually enforcing one.
4) And if there were legal ramifications for mothers that spent such money on things that weren't specifically for the benefit or survival of the child then I'd have less to complain about. As it stands, there are a lot of well fed breeders with nice TVs and regular holidays if you catch my drift. Future child support payments dependant on producing receipts perhaps?

It'd be something rather then enshrining in law the ridiculously antiquated notion that what's good for mother is good for baby. But I find people less willing to bad mouth traditionalism when it benefits women, see, chivalry, man has to pay of first date, child custody law, divorce law...

And yeah, you see how you only get help if you have a baby? That's why there are loads of girls that consider breeding a career. The laws are outdated in a world where a woman isn't the responsibilty of a man.

I also know quite a few single mothers. Can't help but opine that perhaps there wouldn't be so many kids not knowing their fathers if the state wasn't the ultimate, faceless, 100% utility daddy figure. Why would a woman take responsiblity for her decision to let some sub-par chump impregnate her when she can just go straight to painless resource acquisition? Meanwhile, a man doesn't get support for also making stupid breeding choices, he gets a shake down, or if he can't afford it his government sponsored four walls come with a barred window and a burly cellmate called Stabby Pete.

WouldYouKindly:
It seems the mother just has to not be a raving lunatic or a drug addict.

Not true. See above, and I can also confirm from personal experience that horrible mothers are routinely given custody, because apparently alcoholic, jobless mothers are still better qualified to nurture than men. That may sound like I'm being dramatic or on one, but that's just the message the law sends.

BeeGeenie:
"Man up, responsibility is it's own reward!"... seriously? I'm sorry, Calvin's Dad, but "it builds character" is not a good reason to get married.

Calvin and Hobbes ftw

And yes I agree with this

Retrograde:
Snip.

Eh, I live in the UK and I'm pretty sure you don't go to prison for not paying child support (I don't know anybody with divorced parents whose non-primary parent actually PAID child support).
And no I will not turn into a raging bitchmonster who uses everything against ma' man if I get dumped just cause I'm a woman. Stereotypes ahoy.
Also, loads of poor people have nice TVs. Doesn't mean they don't feed their kids.

I think you have a rather limited view of this situation. You seem to have chosen to view it as the lady is a big-baddy who will ALWAYS be evil and vindictive if it is in her power to do so. Not true. Some cases, yeah, but it's not the rule.
Also you seem to assume single mothers have chosen to be as such.
You seriously have never heard of a case of a guy running out on his family?

I don't see this as `Men are the bad ones`, but I don't see it the other way either.
Marriage and divorces are too complex to generalise, IMO.*
I think we get certain stereotypes in our heads about such things.

By all means, don't get married if you don't want to, I just don't see at as black-and-white as you do.

*Of course, I think things should be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

EDIT: I'll probably just leave this thread for who it's meant for. I'm not a marriage-shy man. I'm more marriage ambivalent.

Phasmal:
Snips

Men do indeed run out on their families, but all I'm saying is that if you've been with a guy a year or two, maybe that isn't the time to be having a kid with him. And you know as well as I do that 'year or two' is an incredibly generous amount of time given the teen/single mum stats. Terrible decisions are terrible, either way.

You don't see it as black and white as I do *because you can't be ruined in a divorce*. In the eyes of the law, what's yours is yours and whats his is yours. Why would you be worried about that? You wealth cannot be taken from you. You can agree to give things away and split things if you're a decent woman, but you can't be forced into it.

And that's really the point that I'm getting at here, the single parent thing is a divergance.

I didn't say you would turn into a raging bitch-monster. Just that you wouldn't be the first if you did, and people like me that are unafraid to take the arrows are needed, because as you can see, talking about these things that actually happen quite regularly, is not acceptable yet. In fact, posting something that's outright not a negative about women but is simply strictly male-positive(in terms of someone talking about real male desires) still gets you shit. What's the FIRST response here? A woman telling stories of abused women and shitty men.

Bottom line, I'm not saying women are evil(see what I said in the OP about being called a misogynist though? You haven't used the M word, but here I am apparently hating the evil feminine nonetheless...). What I'm saying is we have here an institution that straight up gives vast powers over to the female, at no benefit whatsoever to the male. Powers which she is fully entitled to abuse to the point where the man is either thrown in jail, or kills himself. The gun is in the purse either way, use it or not, hold it or not, I'm gonna be scared of a fucking gun, especially if you're only going to be rewarded for using it.

But anyway, my point, gents that are with me, is we're starting to get heard.

@Shadrach - Thanks for sharing that stuff. I've seen similar cases in life and in my work of abusive mothers, the system really is not cut out for dealing with that, and challenging it makes you an outsider to the point where people now apparently talk of AVfM like they're an insane bunch of radicals, and not simply an activist group for men.

Phasmal:
3) Prenups are a thing.

Didn't we have a case posted about on R&P not all that long ago where a prenup got invalidated because she alleged that he said he'd terminate it under some condition (I think it was kids in that case?), despite that prenup itself having text to the effect of saying that no verbal agreements will apply to or modify it?

Ignoring of course the whole shaming that gets applied to prenups in some cases (much like shaming applied to paternity testing) -- the implication that if you want that, then you obviously don't trust your partner.

I expect that there's an issue of perspective given what you'd posted -- I am going to make a statement that on an intellectual level, you'll probably agree with, and then maybe not so much when the implications are really considered. "Women are people too, and as such are equally capable of being terrible, because being terrible isn't a male or female quality; it's a human quality."

Phasmal:
Eh, I live in the UK and I'm pretty sure you don't go to prison for not paying child support (I don't know anybody with divorced parents whose non-primary parent actually PAID child support).

That's a bit different here in the states. It actually varies from state to state, but in many of them failing to pay child support is contempt of court. Punishable by jail until things are sorted out to the custodial parents satisfaction. Being in jail doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't continue to accrue, either. In my state at least, they also verify property taxes and child support payment when you visit the DMV for any of the common reasons to do so (license renewal, vehicle registration, transfer of title).

Phasmal:
And no I will not turn into a raging bitchmonster who uses everything against ma' man if I get dumped just cause I'm a woman. Stereotypes ahoy.

No, it doesn't mean you personally will, but if you chose to, the deck is stacked in your favor.

Phasmal:
I think you have a rather limited view of this situation. You seem to have chosen to view it as the lady is a big-baddy who will ALWAYS be evil and vindictive if it is in her power to do so. Not true. Some cases, yeah, but it's not the rule.

She doesn't *have* to ALWAYS be evil, etc. The possibility that it can happen, and the frequency with which it actually does has an influence on the risk/benefit of the whole thing though.

Phasmal:

Also you seem to assume single mothers have chosen to be as such.
You seriously have never heard of a case of a guy running out on his family?

Another one of those things that certainly happens. It's not hard to find plenty of examples of what he's talking about either though.

Phasmal:
3) Prenups are a thing.

They are also a thing whose purpose is being brought under scrutiny and challenged...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/elizabeth-petrakis-prenup_n_2853146.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jefflanders/2013/04/02/five-reasons-your-prenup-might-be-invalid/

...that case pretty much set the worst possible president in law when it comes to prenups. Now people can argue the matter of "coercion" merely by stating they wouldn't haven gotten married without signing it. No shit, that's the fucking point of a prenup.

When, at this stage of the game, even prenups, the document in which a man attempts to protect himself from the pitfalls of a marriage gone south, is no longer worth the cost of insurance, the system is truly fucked.

Now of course it all comes down to personal choice. It doesn't take much effort for a man to simply *not* marry someone. HOWEVER, there are obvious benefits to such an arrangement from a financial and legal perspective; insurance costs, court testimony, medical rights, etc. One can see how certain people would still be compelled to enter the contact. But of course when one looks at it from a purely contractual standpoint, it certainly favors one party more than the other, with no previsions for a breach by either party (no fault), without consideration to "perceived" obligations within the marriage (equal financial support, emotional support, etc). The bottom line is that in it's current state, it's one of the dumbest pieces of paper men can sign.

Sure one can make an argument of trust; don't marry someone you don't trust. But that kind of ignores the ENTIRE point. I don't get into vehicles with people I don't trust, doesn't mean accidents don't happen.

Schadrach:
Didn't we have a case posted about on R&P not all that long ago where a prenup got invalidated because she alleged that he said he'd terminate it under some condition (I think it was kids in that case?), despite that prenup itself having text to the effect of saying that no verbal agreements will apply to or modify it?

That's the one above.

Current marriage is an out-dated institution.

Hell it was always a backwards institution. Originally it was just a way to sell and to claim women as property (still is in some parts of the world).

Now days it has become a tool for women to claim men and abusive/exploitive people to keep control of their victims.

And the whole "she gets half" thing is out-dated too, it was invented to stop men cheating on their women and to stop them dumping their women penniless. However that was created when women could not earn their own living the way men could. Women needed a man to survive in the world.

Now that women have every opportunity that men do, it is completely unfair.

When Marriage ends it should end the same way as it started, if one had more than the other they should keep that more. Nether needs the other to survive. It's their own fault if they had little to nothing prior to marriage, and they should deal with it.

I do think there should an institution for people who love each other to become legally recognised, but marriage isn't the answer. A love based institution should not have legal consequences and should not be subject to any rules beyond what the couple (or more) feel works for them.

And I don't care about any religion so all those reasons/rules can go jump off a cliff.

Retrograde:
@Shadrach - Thanks for sharing that stuff. I've seen similar cases in life and in my work of abusive mothers, the system really is not cut out for dealing with that, and challenging it makes you an outsider to the point where people now apparently talk of AVfM like they're an insane bunch of radicals, and not simply an activist group for men.

Eh, AVfM often goes a bit too far on the extreme side, but they're not as bad as some other places, like the Spearhead. I was always more fond of Genderratic, Toy Soldiers and NSWATM (before it closed). There are likewise times where they're presenting reasonable arguments or reporting things that have happened. The "Misandry in Psychology" series is a decent example, the coverage of Joel Kirk's case is another one, many of the things where they don't turn into a seemingly blind rant about feminism midway through are actually OK. Just so long as you don't read the comments, the comments on that site are horrible on a good day.

No one in my entire family have ever been married AND stayed that way. I do believe it's a somewhat hopeless dream.

Marriage? All I'd do it for is to give the woman I wanna spend my life with a PROPER CEREMONY, & to keep the children safe in terms of legality, other than that, it is like a gun pointed at your head, she may not pull the trigger but damned if she does if it ain't favouring her.

Phasmal:
I think you have a rather limited view of this situation. You seem to have chosen to view it as the lady is a big-baddy who will ALWAYS be evil and vindictive if it is in her power to do so. Not true. Some cases, yeah, but it's not the rule.
Also you seem to assume single mothers have chosen to be as such.
You seriously have never heard of a case of a guy running out on his family?

No, the lady won't always be evil and vindictive, the point is that they have all the power if they choose to be. Breakups are emotional things, and can very easily cause people to treat each other in completely horrible ways. If one part has the law on their side, what are you going to do?

You're banking on her being a reasonable breakup, essentially. Banking a lot of your future on it. With today's divorce rates, it's very likely you'll go through it, statistically speaking.

And no, of course single mothers don't all choose to be single mothers. They get out of bad relationships. And some of them take opportunity to strip whoever they were with of anything they can, because the dice are loaded in their favor. Guys can run out on their families, sure, they can even take the kids, but how often does that work and stay that way? Which court or public media would treat such a case in the father's favor, unless the mother is some sort of case? Flip it around, mother leaves with the kids. No big deal, all of a sudden.

Fox brings on an expert... and they actually talk a lot of sense in spite of Fox's attempts to sensationalise the issue. Well that was nice surprise from the usual. Certainly in some aspects of society men do get a raw deal, marriage and child custody are usually two of main ones.

BeeGeenie:
"Man up, responsibility is it's own reward!"... seriously? I'm sorry, Calvin's Dad, but "it builds character" is not a good reason to get married.

Hey don't knock character building. That character building is going to come right in handy when the marriage breaks apart because of two people rushing to get married when they felt like they had to. Think of how well you'll be able to deal with the psychological scarring and emotional baggage of ruining yours, yours spouse's and children's lives with the help of that character building. And better yet the following divorce proceedings with lead to yet more wonderful character building opportunities allowing you to become a much better member of society. Sure you may be left bitter towards the idea of marriage and a broken husk of a man but at least you will be a man in the eyes of a Fox new presenter :P

Retrograde:

You don't see it as black and white as I do *because you can't be ruined in a divorce*. In the eyes of the law, what's yours is yours and whats his is yours. Why would you be worried about that? You wealth cannot be taken from you. You can agree to give things away and split things if you're a decent woman, but you can't be forced into it.

Well, there's a little bit too much stereotyping of women for me in this thread, but I'm going to pop in just to say that this is by no means always the case. My friend's mom got in the exact opposite situation with this, so you don't get a magic divorce settlement shield just by being a woman. Her mom ended up losing a lot of her property in the divorce settlement because she had a manipulative husband who listed a bunch of his/their property as being inherited by his father or something like that. As well she hasn't seen any money in terms of child support, despite her being the only caregiver of her children.

I also know several other women who basically stepped aside and let their husband keep the house and most of their belongings (because they were the primary source of income) and are currently struggling financially and living in very small and inconvenient accomodations. Hardly the sort of thing you'd expect from the vindictiveness that women are apparently so well known for.

Divorces are complex things, and you can't just go by a "keep what you paid for/what you earned" because this would always screw over the individual who happens to be the kid's primary caregiver

I am noticing another hypocritical undercurrent to this discussion. It does seem as though when a women makes a bad call in a relationship as to the character of the person they are involved with, we grant them help. We have welfare, child support, abuse shelters, punitive alimony, and a host of other laws/regulations to help cushion the impact of having been a poor judge of character and we don't really blame them for having made the mistake. We accept that there are a lot of men out there that are just terrible people who spread misery and suffering. And you can voice that fact without being seen as a negative prejudiced hatemonger.

None of this is the case on the other foot. If a man makes a bad call as to the character of his wife or girlfriend, we have little if any such help for them. We expect them not only to deal with the consequences unaided, we actually have a system set up to help the female punish them should she wish to. Simply acknowledging that there are many women that also spread misery and suffering will get you labeled as a patriarchal misogynist.

This is the reason that a woman can vouch for the male position like the author of the book in the video. We have a caste system set up that we all pretend not to notice. If you ever want to know who has the power in a society, look at who you cannot criticize without consequence within that society.

That was hilarious. Their hand picked guest talking about how beaten down and victimized men are, and the male hosts all thumping their chests and declaring the awesome power of man

Just wanted to inform me: Do you US guys really have such a fucked up marriage system?

It wouldn't really suprise me honestly, but how does this work? Women can divorce you on a whim, but men can't? And then you always have to give up 50% of your stuff?

Around here you usually have to prove that the marriage can't be saved and then you've to live apart from each other for a year. And a bunch of other diffrent mechanics that prevent both sides from gettin' screwed over.

On the other hand this has it's downside to:
Due to common social behavior women get often treated a little better on child custody cases, specially if the mother plays the "Domestic Violence" or "Child Molestation" joker <.<
Which i could expirience when a good friend of mine got accused of that just because the mother wanted to harm him. She incited(?) the kids against him. Horrible stuff. Their divorce has taken 5 years now.

Good Part: He still got his stuff, she has to pay him compensation for the claims she made and she gets no alimony because both earn around the same, just a small amount for the kids.
Bad Part: The long duration of the divorce took it's toll on the kids and the relationship between all people involved in it.

I'd reckon from what i read i wouldn't marry in the US too, honestly. The only reason people don't marry in Switzerland is when it's not smart oeconomically, because of higher taxes and shit.

Retrograde:
]

1) Very common point, but if he divorces you you're clearly a monster, since he'd still be the one throwing himself in a grinder. And he'd be a brave soul too since now he's leaving you, and nothing makes a woman vindictive like being dumped. It's not like he can take the house and kids and kick you out.

What kind of wierd generalization is that? I'm not in the US, so obviously that's a difference but a coworker of mine got custody of his son when he and his first wife split up, and that was 15 years ago. And my brother-in-law and his wife recently broke up and he got the house.

I find the discussions of custody arrangements as an argument against marriage to be completely bizarre - people who have kids together go through that if they break up regardless of whether they marry or not. That's an argument for birth control, not for staying single.

In any case, issues with US laws aren't the same as issues with marriage in-and-of itself - I expected a rather different thread topic based on the title.

I don't know what to think about the OP. On the one hand his writing is coherent and fluent, suggesting him to be intelligent, but on the other his arguments indicate that he is at best a Men's Rights Activist, and at worst a MGTOW, also known as the spewers of some of the most idiotic garbage on the internet. I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to perform to come to the ridiculous conclusion that men have it worse than women, but my God these people seem to be capable of them.

If I don't get married it'll be because I see it as an outdated and unnecessary institution, not because I'm misguided enough to think women are horrible bloodsuckers who want to divorce me, take my house and children away and then force me to pay them every last penny I have.

Oh, but of course, who cares what I have to say? I treat women as equals and with the same respect I treat men, which makes me a "beta-male", a worthless piece of garbage who's holding humanity back. Jesus fucking Christ.

I'm not getting married. Fuck marriage. And fuck this "doctor's" opinion, treating men like they're part of an elaborate hive mind operating against HER idea of love and companionship.

Look at me skip along. La-di-da-di-da.

marriage? I can't even keep a woman interested for longer than three months!

Marriage isn't really a big deal here in the northern Netherlands (which is a short distance, I know, but even we have a bible belt), couples just move in somewhere together and maybe even have kids, if they do, the government has a little fund set up to help out, about a hundred bucks a month or maybe a little less than that.
I'm not sure about our child support laws on a break up.

Thing is though, I talked to my dad about it once, and it basicly boiled down to that weddings are expensive and are more of a hassle than either one wants to deal with.
They do celebrate their "going steady" anniversary though. ^^

What the fuck?

That's.... Just what the fuck?

Without changing any of the lines or any of the facial expressions or any of the emotional inflection, Just transpose that sketch unaltered over to Saturday Night Live. It would be the best sketch of the show.

Funny, gut splitting, hilarious.

But it wasn't on SNL it was on Fox News. News...
That is a program that is produced with the intention of informing the public on the state of things in the world.
That viewpoint is fucked through the filter of some idiot who legitimately thinks the only way a man can get a deep sense of satisfaction is by "taking responsibility for other people"

Why hasn't anyone assassinated these people yet?

Maybe I shouldn't be posting here but I want to so I will.

I truly believe marriage has had it's day. Not neccessarily as a romantic concept but definatley as a legal one.

I would much rather have a partner than a husband, and I would rather be someone's partner than be their wife. I am also a firm believer in seperate finances. Split the rent, the bills, even the grocery shopping. But have your own money and your own things. It prevents all those arguments and give you both more freedom and independance.

This is not to suggest that I am in some way against two people making a commitment to each other. I hope that when I meet the right person that eventually we can hire a wonderful venue and invite all of our loved ones to witness us pledge to spend our lives together. I just don't think that the legal contract element of it all is appropriate anymore, I want to spend my life with someone because we fit together, and should we find at some point that that is no longer the case I want us to be free to go our seperate ways.

San Martin:
I don't know what to think about the OP. On the one hand his writing is coherent and fluent, suggesting him to be intelligent, but on the other his arguments indicate that he is at best a Men's Rights Activist, and at worst a MGTOW, also known as the spewers of some of the most idiotic garbage on the internet. I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to perform to come to the ridiculous conclusion that men have it worse than women, but my God these people seem to be capable of them.

If I don't get married it'll be because I see it as an outdated and unnecessary institution, not because I'm misguided enough to think women are horrible bloodsuckers who want to divorce me, take my house and children away and then force me to pay them every last penny I have.

Oh, but of course, who cares what I have to say? I treat women as equals and with the same respect I treat men, which makes me a "beta-male", a worthless piece of garbage who's holding humanity back. Jesus fucking Christ.

Nothing wrong with being a mens rights activist I mean I would love you to list off all the downsides to being a woman in North American society. I could name tons of disadvantages to being a guy or advantages to being a woman both legal and public perception.

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