For my fellow "marriage shy" men.

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Marriage. Issues I have with the institution isn't really to do with what you get out of it, but what happens (statistically) when it doesn't work, aka DIVORCE.
1. Alimony: If two people divorce, its not right to me that one person has to pay the other a fucking stipend. I don't see many jobs do this if they decide you are no longer working out for the company... Severence pay doesn't last forever, its a one-time payoff. And more often than not the guy ends up paying the woman. I thought we were going for gender "equality", so why is it the man supporting the "poor divorced woman" trope being perpetuated?
2. Child support should go both ways. A side note: Women don't make the best parents. A good parent isn't limited to gender. This is coming from someone who has experience in this area. EVERY case is different and a good Dad is just as valid as a good Mom. But I hardly ever hear of deadbeat mommas... cuz its ok for mommy to abandon the kid, but if Dad ain't paying he's a shithead.
3. I don't think someone is entitled to half of the "assets" just because they were married. If one person makes more than the other, then that person is entitled to what they made. EQUALITY. Its all or nothing folks.

Basically the whole idea of marriage is bullshit when it comes down to it, why? Because its so easy to fuck over someone you're married to by divorcing them.
I am of the mind that if I'm marrying someone, I'm sticking it out. Til death.
End of story.
Or don't get fucking married.

The Men's Rights movement suffers from the same problems that the Feminist movement does: way too many morons with a grudge decide to take up the torch and dazzle us with their 'facts.'

The real facts of the matter are that gender inequality is still a thing, in both directions. There are social, legal and personal ramifications to the way things are that can disadvantage you regardless of whether you are male or female. Nobody has a monopoly on this. It's important to have a voice and an active analysis/discussion on what could be made better, but framing it in the terms of "rights" just blows the whole thing up sky-high and overinflates everything to the point where a meaningful conversation is utterly impossible.

Marriage can have positive and negative traits as well, but it's easy to see why many might be stepping out of it. I don't know if this is really a bad thing, either.

See marriage as a joke with no funny punchline. When I told people that I think marriage is a horrible idea, they get so pissed off. After all, some of the rudest people I have ever met are married. Makes no sense to me on paper. Pretty much break it down from a mans point of view. Real pain of a possible divorce.(Which will likely happen) Of course you have to hang out with people on her side that you can't stand. Of course you have to have sex with the same person, again, again, again. Then there is the boredom of the married man, going to the Pottery Barn and talking to other boring married couples.

I think it's even simpler than they're making it out to be.

Short of having kids, there's not really any benefit to the package deal that marriage is over handling individual issues like power of attourney and joint property on a case-by-case basis. You're living together, so you have time to work all that stuff out anyhow. Even with kids, family court nowadays favors joint custody and you're actually LESS likely to end up with child support if you're financially independent when yo have the kid. By contrast, the cost of being married if you want to dissolve the relationship are overwhelming to the point of ridiculousness.

So it's not really a problem of "women hold all the cards" it's a problem of marriage is an exchange of a set of relatively minor benefits for a moderate risk of a HUGE financial cost. It's a bad deal for _women_, too.

Note that even in a Fox News poll where they spin the hell out of the numbers, they couldn't get favorability toward marriage over 40% for women either.

Hmm my opinions on the subjects currently being discussed-

1:I'm nineteen and never had GF so the chances that I'll get one let alone marry a girl is very small which while depressing at times I admit comes with advantages such as not having to deal with stuff like this.Yeah marriage is outdated while it does come with advantages and can be a wonderfully moment it also has to many pitfalls that need to be ironed out before progress can be made that or we can scrape the whole thing entirely.

2:Both Mra/Feminism are flawed as well and they both share the same problem which can be seen just by looking at the beginning on their names-both claim to want to end sexism and create gender equality but only focus on one gender how can you end sexism but only focus on it half of the time/how is it gender equality to ignore the other gender's problems. Not only that but they spend so much time squabbling and getting in a pissing contest over who has it worth that they actually add to the problem,if they want truly achieve their goals they need to team up and work together and become humanist's.

GroovySpecs:
Maybe I shouldn't be posting here but I want to so I will.

I truly believe marriage has had it's day. Not neccessarily as a romantic concept but definatley as a legal one.

I would much rather have a partner than a husband, and I would rather be someone's partner than be their wife. I am also a firm believer in seperate finances. Split the rent, the bills, even the grocery shopping. But have your own money and your own things. It prevents all those arguments and give you both more freedom and independance.

This is not to suggest that I am in some way against two people making a commitment to each other. I hope that when I meet the right person that eventually we can hire a wonderful venue and invite all of our loved ones to witness us pledge to spend our lives together. I just don't think that the legal contract element of it all is appropriate anymore, I want to spend my life with someone because we fit together, and should we find at some point that that is no longer the case I want us to be free to go our seperate ways.

I totally agree to this.

I am in a stable and loving relationship with my boyfriend for over five years now.
We are devoted and willing to do everything a married couple will do.
we spend over 12 hours together at work and at home, but have separate houses, separate bills and will not get legally married.
It works for us because we have a healthy distance between each other to rest and refresh, and miss each other.
marriage does not work for me. so I just wont do it.

Angie7F:
I totally agree to this.

I am in a stable and loving relationship with my boyfriend for over five years now.
We are devoted and willing to do everything a married couple will do.
we spend over 12 hours together at work and at home, but have separate houses, separate bills and will not get legally married.
It works for us because we have a healthy distance between each other to rest and refresh, and miss each other.
marriage does not work for me. so I just wont do it.

That's honestly wonderful and it works for you two, but it will only ever be a relationship between two people. If you both want to have a family you couldn't go on like that. I think that's why marriage is strongly defended and promoted, because it's a committed bond gluing a family together. Obviously not all families look that way and not everyone even wants children, but it has been the model used to bring people as close together as possible (and perhaps remain monogamous).

That said I'd agree that the institution needs to be revisited; I don't think it's outdated but needs to be more attractive and ideal. There may need to be different types of marriages defined to fit everyone.

I'm gay so you could label me under the stereotypical ANTI-GENDER ROLES rigmarole.

But, the thing that irks me most about marriage is that it's a choice where not all of the conditions are known at signing. You need to be a lawyer to completely understand the conditions going in for your country and as others have mentioned Prenups might as well not exist in many cases.

For example if I DID get married and have kids something I would like to have is custody of the kids in a divorce. Even in a "traditional marriage" that process is not so well defined.

Like hell I'm marrying anyone. The cons too far heavily outweigh the pros (if any). Marriage in the US is like giving a woman a fully loaded gun and giving her permission to shoot, but asking her not to; all the man is doing is asking to get fucked in the worst way possible.

The Artificially Prolonged:
Fox brings on an expert... and they actually talk a lot of sense in spite of Fox's attempts to sensationalise the issue. Well that was nice surprise from the usual. Certainly in some aspects of society men do get a raw deal, marriage and child custody are usually two of main ones.

I can't believe I watched something from fox news as well :/
but it was a nice surprise.
although,

The Artificially Prolonged:

Fox's attempts to sensationalise the issue.

still hated that aspect of it. It happens every frigging time I'm shown something from fox.

The Artificially Prolonged:

BeeGeenie:
"Man up, responsibility is it's own reward!"... seriously? I'm sorry, Calvin's Dad, but "it builds character" is not a good reason to get married.

Hey don't knock character building. That character building is going to come right in handy when the marriage breaks apart because of two people rushing to get married when they felt like they had to. Think of how well you'll be able to deal with the psychological scarring and emotional baggage of ruining yours, yours spouse's and children's lives with the help of that character building. And better yet the following divorce proceedings with lead to yet more wonderful character building opportunities allowing you to become a much better member of society. Sure you may be left bitter towards the idea of marriage and a broken husk of a man but at least you will be a man in the eyes of a Fox new presenter :P

b- but... but character!
:P

I watched like 30 seconds of that and there were so many incorrect, baseless, exaggerated or just plain old Fox brand crazy statements that I couldn't watch anymore.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong. Wrong wrong, wrong wrong.

Jesus frickin' weeps. 'Weomen hold all the cards in reproductive rights.' 'well that's all true and I agree with that completely...'

Yeah. No.

GroovySpecs:

I would much rather have a partner than a husband, and I would rather be someone's partner than be their wife.

Conceptually and personally I don't see the difference (Historically however... Ž_Ž)
Anyway from all the people around my age that i know many things hamper even keeping a relationship going let alone marriage, on both sides standards are messed up. There's also the blatant scare mongering like, well like what fox are doing so what do people expect?

But i've been single for an ungodly amount of time so what do i know?

MorphingDragon:
I'm gay so you could label me under the stereotypical ANTI-GENDER ROLES rigmarole.

But, the thing that irks me most about marriage is that it's a choice where not all of the conditions are known at signing. You need to be a lawyer to completely understand the conditions going in for your country and as others have mentioned Prenups might as well not exist in many cases.

For example if I DID get married and have kids something I would like to have is custody of the kids in a divorce. Even in a "traditional marriage" that process is not so well defined.

You bring up an excellent point. It is true that the vast majority of people getting married have no clue about how the laws work, especially family law. People who do have an understanding of what goes on in family law try to explain it to regular people and usually get treated like they are crazy or exaggerating about how bad it gets. People just have this unwillingness to confront the idea that often times laws are clearly unfair and people fall through the cracks (I wouldn't even call them cracks, they are more like fissures) all the time.

In many places the laws are designed specifically to be unfair, but no one wants to believe that. For example: the federal government actually gives states additional funds for every dollar collected in child support, that the state can then allocate to any part of the budget they like. This incentives courts to award child support orders well in excess of what the child would actually require if they believe the non-custodial parent can pay it.

It should be a requirement for people to have to spend a day at family court just watching the proceedings before signing a marriage certificate, assuming you live in a jurisdiction that allows people to do so. In some places they do not let 3rd parties of any kind in and even discussing any aspect of a family law case publicly can get you thrown in jail for contempt. It is as though the courts don't want people to know what goes on in there till its your turn.

Adeptus Aspartem:
Just wanted to inform me: Do you US guys really have such a fucked up marriage system?

It's partially the system and partially the people that attempt to abuse the system for maximum gain. As always, it pretty much boils down to the idea that a system exists in which insanely vindictive people are legally able to utterly destroy someone's life for some pretty petty reasons.

While 'most' of it is written fairly gender neutral, there are some gender specific laws and ordinances, not to mention social bias and stereotype, which make it a rather stacked issue.

And we're not even talking about things like same sex marriages, and our sorted history with inter gender marriages. In general, the US has no fucking clue how to properly regulate relations between two individuals, NOR SHOULD IT.

Adeptus Aspartem:
It wouldn't really suprise me honestly, but how does this work? Women can divorce you on a whim, but men can't? And then you always have to give up 50% of your stuff?

Both sexes can divorce at any time, and neither have to cite a reason beyond; "I want a divorce." Although reasons can and do often affect the court proceeding and subsequent judgments. Of course, women do tend to initiate the majority of divorces in the US... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#United_States (roughly 2/3, give or take)

Some good snippets...

According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women have filed slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the United States.[73] There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper. Evidence is given that among college-educated couples, the percentage of divorces initiated by women is approximately 90%.

A study has found that White female-Black male and White female-Asian male marriages are more prone to divorce than White-White pairings.[33] Conversely, unions between White males and non-White females (and between Hispanics and non-Hispanic persons) have similar or lower risks of divorce than White-White marriages.[33]

Regarding divorce settlements, according to the 2004 Grant Thornton survey in the UK, women obtained a better or considerably better settlement than men in 60% of cases. In 30% of cases the assets were split 50-50, and in only 10% of cases did men achieve better settlements (down from 24% the previous year). The report concluded that the percentage of shared residence orders would need to increase in order for more equitable financial divisions to become the norm.[67]

Some jurisdictions give unequal rights to men and women when filing for divorce.

..but on the plus side...

It is estimated that upwards of 95% of divorces in the U.S. are "uncontested", because the two parties are able to come to an agreement without a hearing (either with or without lawyers/mediators/collaborative counsel) about the property, children, and support issues.

...whether that's do to the potential pitfalls, and still might favor women, who knows for sure.

I do however know more people who had amicable splits then nasty divorces.

Adeptus Aspartem:
Around here you usually have to prove that the marriage can't be saved and then you've to live apart from each other for a year.

You don't have to in the US; do to no fault divorces... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fault_divorce All you really have to do is file the paperwork, or get someone to begin the proceedings on your behalf (such as the police).

Adeptus Aspartem:
And a bunch of other diffrent mechanics that prevent both sides from gettin' screwed over.

We call them 'lawyers' here. And that mechanic tends to improve the more money you can throw at the court.

Sadly there is a large percentage of proceedings which are more a matter of attrition than actual judicial proceeding, another massive issue with our system as it exists.

Adeptus Aspartem:
On the other hand this has it's downside to:
Due to common social behavior women get often treated a little better on child custody cases, specially if the mother plays the "Domestic Violence" or "Child Molestation" joker <.<
Which i could expirience when a good friend of mine got accused of that just because the mother wanted to harm him. She incited(?) the kids against him. Horrible stuff. Their divorce has taken 5 years now.

That's a pretty big maneuver here in the US. The mere accusation can get immediate action taken against you, whether a temporary restraining order, or emergency custody. Our legal system, while it glorifies "innocent until proven guilty" still works on the assumption of guilt (because of the accusation).

Adeptus Aspartem:
Good Part: He still got his stuff, she has to pay him compensation for the claims she made and she gets no alimony because both earn around the same, just a small amount for the kids.
Bad Part: The long duration of the divorce took it's toll on the kids and the relationship between all people involved in it.

Luckily alimony is mostly gender neutral. There are a growing number of high earning women that are starting to make headlines... http://ideas.time.com/2013/05/16/the-de-gendering-of-divorce-wives-pay-ex-husbands-alimony-too/ ...which sadly speaks to the gynocentrism that exists within our society. Up to this point is has merely been a reflection of earning power within the relationship. Of course on the one hand proof of wage disparities between the genders on a general scale. Now suddenly it's an injustice. Fucking pathetic if you ask me.

But not everyone agrees; getting rid of it might be "anti-women"... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/23/florida-lawmakers-move-to-end-permanent-alimony-as-governor-weighs-legislation/

Adeptus Aspartem:
I'd reckon from what i read i wouldn't marry in the US too, honestly. The only reason people don't marry in Switzerland is when it's not smart oeconomically, because of higher taxes and shit.

Economically speaking, marriage is actually beneficial in the US to two economically minded individuals. You get various tax breaks in addition to incentives in other areas of life, such as legal protections for joint property, etc. But that's part of the problem on one hand, because you do, legally speaking, make your spouse a full partner in success and failure (because you also acquire their debts).

So there are certainly reasons to, if you want to run the risk of divorce, currently sitting at roughly 50%. Did the financial benefits of the contract make a considerable difference? Do the court costs exceed the uptake during marriage? Is the divorce going to be amicable? Are you going to spend years fighting a vindictive person? All answers someone should consider prior to signing the document, but in the end it's still a personal choice.

Kind of like gambling. Sure you could win big. Or you could lose the deed to your house. Some people like gambling. Others don't.

I remember a legion called the He Man Woman Haters Club from when I played Aion. For some reason that's all I can think of when I see this MGTOW nonsense. Not that they had anything to do with this sort of movement, it was just a catchy name.

Not being in a serious relationship right now, marriage isn't something I think about, but I look around and can't help but think there are a lot of dudes here with trust and security issues.

Ha! "Man up"... Hannity is a complete fool.

I like this Dr Smith... and she says she's single and looking? I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Sexual Harassment Panda:
Ha! "Man up"... Hannity is a complete fool.

I like this Dr Smith... and she says she's single and looking? I'll throw my hat in the ring.

You could do worse. If i was single i would be tempted to as well. Oh who am i kidding. I never approach women. I know they all think i'm a rapist, child molesting, assault charge just waiting to happen.

Aramis Night:
It is as though the courts don't want people to know what goes on in there till its your turn.

During Uni I've been working part time IT at a law firm. Let's just say you learn a few things about how the court process actually works talking to the lawyers.

Phasmal:

Retrograde:

snip.

1) Boyfriend could also divorce me too.
2) We both share everything anyway, so us even breaking up would be a big fucked up mess of who gets what
3) Prenups are a thing.
4) You can't complain about welfare AND child support. Kid's gotta eat somehow. One or the other.

Seriously, if either of us were that worried, we'd get a prenup. Sure it's not romantic, but neither is life. =P

I know lots of single mothers. I was raised by a single mother. Needless to say, not one of them just kicked their man to the curb because it's soooooo easy to be a single mother. A lot of them just happened to have had failed relationships, it happens.
And do some young girls think getting a baby is an easy way to get a house? Yeah, but when I was on the verge of becoming homeless and had a meeting with an authority, the people there didn't want to know unless I was pregnant. So... yeah, systems fucking up the people more than the other way round IMO.

I have a sneaking suspicion you and I might be on different sides of some kind of fence here. It's cool, I don't mind disagreeing with people.

EDIT: Though I will hold my hand up to some ignorance on divorce, never really having had experience with it before. My parents divorce was messed up but the actual division of stuff part was fairly simple.

A minor point but prenups are usually not respected (by judges) in the UK.

I've lived in a committed relationship with the same woman for damn near 15 years now. We share a home, share responsibility in it's payment and upkeep, we do all of the things that our parents did with none of the legal malarky that goes into getting a piece of paper that says the government recognizes our union.

In that same 15 years, virtually half of the people I know friends, family and coworkers alike have been married and divorced. Of the remaining half, those that are married do little but complain about their respective significant others.

In my case, the fact of the matter is simply that I choose not to get married, not because it's a "raw deal" or because she is an independent woman. I choose to remain single because I've seen no evidence to suggest that the institution of marriage is worth putting any faith in.

I find it a bit the opposite here, though that's mostly to do with the massive rise in preggo' teenage mothers these days.

That and of course I'll boycot it, gay's can't legally marry in Aus.

I feel so very very lucky whenever I read things like this. My mother and my two aunts have all been married twice, all of them are currently married to their second husband. My mother and my birth-father divorced because they didn't work together. They got shared custody for me until my dad basically said he didn't want it any more. Mom got broke and lived in a small apartment, then she got lucky and won the lottery. Then she met my current dad, the one I grew up with. They married when I was three, almost twenty years ago now. They are happy. One of my aunts is happy. My grandparents, who celebrated their 65 year anniversary last month are happy. My other aunt doesn't seem as happy, but her marriage is religion based...

I can get the fear men has for getting screwed over, but I don't understand the demonisation of marriage OR women in marriage. Personally, I believe you should only consider getting married if two conditions are met:
1. You want to. Really important.
2. You look at your partner and think "nothing will change if we get married, it will just be official".

I realise that I, as a marriage-ambivilent woman might not have any place in this conversation, but I still wanted to point out that being committed to someone doesn't really change weather you tie the knot or not. Marriage is not evil, people who are scorned and vindictive are, and those people can be both male and female...

The happiest couples I know are those that have stayed together in a relationship WITHOUT getting married. Because they know that they love each other and want to be together and that they don't need a piece of paper to prove it.

Marriage is a bad deal for BOTH parties, not for legal reasons (although it is there too) but more for psychological reasons. Once you are married, you are locked together and as such there is so reason to put effort into pleasing each other any more. This is why stereotypically, women get fat and men get lazy after marriage. And who wants that?

aba1:

San Martin:
I don't know what to think about the OP. On the one hand his writing is coherent and fluent, suggesting him to be intelligent, but on the other his arguments indicate that he is at best a Men's Rights Activist, and at worst a MGTOW, also known as the spewers of some of the most idiotic garbage on the internet. I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to perform to come to the ridiculous conclusion that men have it worse than women, but my God these people seem to be capable of them.

If I don't get married it'll be because I see it as an outdated and unnecessary institution, not because I'm misguided enough to think women are horrible bloodsuckers who want to divorce me, take my house and children away and then force me to pay them every last penny I have.

Oh, but of course, who cares what I have to say? I treat women as equals and with the same respect I treat men, which makes me a "beta-male", a worthless piece of garbage who's holding humanity back. Jesus fucking Christ.

Nothing wrong with being a mens rights activist I mean I would love you to list off all the downsides to being a woman in North American society. I could name tons of disadvantages to being a guy or advantages to being a woman both legal and public perception.

As Iīm sure you can tell in my post I hold Menīs Rights Activism in extremely low regard. However Iīm not completely closed-minded, and if you are willing to engage me in conversation Iīll be more than happy to have my prejudices challenged and possibly even proven wrong.

Please could you explain to me the main reasons you consider men to have a harder time than women in this day and age? I myself am from the UK but I think our cultures are similar enough that in this case what applies to one will apply to the other.

San Martin:

aba1:

San Martin:
I don't know what to think about the OP. On the one hand his writing is coherent and fluent, suggesting him to be intelligent, but on the other his arguments indicate that he is at best a Men's Rights Activist, and at worst a MGTOW, also known as the spewers of some of the most idiotic garbage on the internet. I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you'd have to perform to come to the ridiculous conclusion that men have it worse than women, but my God these people seem to be capable of them.

If I don't get married it'll be because I see it as an outdated and unnecessary institution, not because I'm misguided enough to think women are horrible bloodsuckers who want to divorce me, take my house and children away and then force me to pay them every last penny I have.

Oh, but of course, who cares what I have to say? I treat women as equals and with the same respect I treat men, which makes me a "beta-male", a worthless piece of garbage who's holding humanity back. Jesus fucking Christ.

Nothing wrong with being a mens rights activist I mean I would love you to list off all the downsides to being a woman in North American society. I could name tons of disadvantages to being a guy or advantages to being a woman both legal and public perception.

As Iīm sure you can tell in my post I hold Menīs Rights Activism in extremely low regard. However Iīm not completely closed-minded, and if you are willing to engage me in conversation Iīll be more than happy to have my prejudices challenged and possibly even proven wrong.

Please could you explain to me the main reasons you consider men to have a harder time than women in this day and age? I myself am from the UK but I think our cultures are similar enough that in this case what applies to one will apply to the other.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I think one side has it way harder than the other I just know there are large issues on both sides and womens issues have the giant support while mens get frowned on for even acknowledging its existence. I am glad you are being open because a discussion is pointless if both sides aren't open. Ok so I will get started.

1). Women have priority job picks in almost all fields since there are less women working than men.

2). Before the feminist movement both sex's had very specific jobs in life. Women were supposed to take care of the home and children while men were supposed to provide for the family making sure they had money and food etc. Now with the feminist movement having looked out for womens rights women can do what ever they choose they can be on both sides which is great except that men are still stuck. Men can't be homemakers or take care of the kids without extreme public scrutiny and legal scrutiny. If you are a guy staying at home not working you are considered a freeloader or a bum.

3). Women have tons of funds and charities looking to help them when they are on hard times that men simply don't have.

4). Women have access to tons of grants and academic funding that guys simply don't have. In fact in highschool I couldn't apply for a single award or grant at graduation to help pay for college because I wasn't a woman, visible minority or religious.

5). Since women are perceived as victims women look out for other women and guys tend to look out for girls over guys because of attraction. This is why when a guy is getting attacked in public people cheer on the women assuming she is justified even if she isn't and the guy will likely get attacked by even more people if he even defends himself. There have been tons of studies proving this as well.

6). Legally women have better odds in courts than guys for the same reasons as above and that guys are generally perceived as aggressors. This is extremely huge when it comes to divorce courts and custody trials. I have heard stories of guys having to prove the wife was abusive with actual evidence just to even receive majority custody and still barely won with the court looking to have it switched after a bit of therapy.

7). Women get far more attention medically. Breast cancer and colon cancer are both nearly just as common as each other but breast cancer is the only form that ever gets any funding.

8). Women have a easier time working up the corporate ladder. Since women have predominately not been in leader positions there is a huge push to pump women up the ladder quick at most corporations as to appear politically correct. So even if you are a better worker it is hard to get promotions as a guy because women get priority when it comes to raises.

9). Guys lives are considered to be worth less than a womens over all. A guy is expected to die before women gets hurt. You see this in conscription laws all over the worlds even in modern first world nations. A guy is expected to lay down his life something that would never be expected of a women and even in smaller examples guys are expected to risk bodily harm doing hard jobs while women are not. I have experienced this first hand at almost every single job I have ever been at. When ever this is any kind of physically taxing job I was expected to do it so a woman wouldn't even if she was perfectly capable and I have things I needed to do already. I am also not talking jobs where she wouldn't be able to lift something cause I get that I understand if you can't lift something and need help.

10). Guys can't enjoy spending time with children. If you are a guy and like spending time with kids and working with them or what not you have to be insanely careful that somebody doesn't drop the pedo label. You could have done nothing wrong but the second someone says something you are risking life and limb to avoid prison over someone who saw you simply smiling watching kids play. The whole thing is insane I get protecting your kids from predators which is only common sense but it is a conclusion people jump to way to easily and they basically have made it so only guys can be them too.

11). Guys are not allowed to defend their sex socially. If you are a guy and you mention having issues being a guy people will attack you like a flock of crows. Even you here have done it with your original post, sure you weren't to bad and you last post was very reasonable but you can just imagine being in a public area especially with women around.

There are more issues too but I think this is a good place to stop. To be honest if the feminist movement didn't exist then I wouldn't really be for the mens rights movement because it only focuses on men but it is sorta necessary to balance out the one sidedness of the feminist movement. At the end of the day I am more for people not defining each other by gender except when it is really logical.

aba1:

San Martin:

aba1:

Nothing wrong with being a mens rights activist I mean I would love you to list off all the downsides to being a woman in North American society. I could name tons of disadvantages to being a guy or advantages to being a woman both legal and public perception.

As Iīm sure you can tell in my post I hold Menīs Rights Activism in extremely low regard. However Iīm not completely closed-minded, and if you are willing to engage me in conversation Iīll be more than happy to have my prejudices challenged and possibly even proven wrong.

Please could you explain to me the main reasons you consider men to have a harder time than women in this day and age? I myself am from the UK but I think our cultures are similar enough that in this case what applies to one will apply to the other.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I think one side has it way harder than the other I just know there are large issues on both sides and womens issues have the giant support while mens get frowned on for even acknowledging its existence. I am glad you are being open because a discussion is pointless if both sides aren't open. Ok so I will get started.

1). Women have priority job picks in almost all fields since there are less women working than men.

2). Before the feminist movement both sex's had very specific jobs in life. Women were supposed to take care of the home and children while men were supposed to provide for the family making sure they had money and food etc. Now with the feminist movement having looked out for womens rights women can do what ever they choose they can be on both sides which is great except that men are still stuck. Men can't be homemakers or take care of the kids without extreme public scrutiny and legal scrutiny. If you are a guy staying at home not working you are considered a freeloader or a bum.

3). Women have tons of funds and charities looking to help them when they are on hard times that men simply don't have.

4). Women have access to tons of grants and academic funding that guys simply don't have. In fact in highschool I couldn't apply for a single award or grant at graduation to help pay for college because I wasn't a woman, visible minority or religious.

5). Since women are perceived as victims women look out for other women and guys tend to look out for girls over guys because of attraction. This is why when a guy is getting attacked in public people cheer on the women assuming she is justified even if she isn't and the guy will likely get attacked by even more people if he even defends himself. There have been tons of studies proving this as well.

6). Legally women have better odds in courts than guys for the same reasons as above and that guys are generally perceived as aggressors. This is extremely huge when it comes to divorce courts and custody trials. I have heard stories of guys having to prove the wife was abusive with actual evidence just to even receive majority custody and still barely won with the court looking to have it switched after a bit of therapy.

7). Women get far more attention medically. Breast cancer and colon cancer are both nearly just as common as each other but breast cancer is the only form that ever gets any funding.

8). Women have a easier time working up the corporate ladder. Since women have predominately not been in leader positions there is a huge push to pump women up the ladder quick at most corporations as to appear politically correct. So even if you are a better worker it is hard to get promotions as a guy because women get priority when it comes to raises.

9). Guys lives are considered to be worth less than a womens over all. A guy is expected to die before women gets hurt. You see this in conscription laws all over the worlds even in modern first world nations. A guy is expected to lay down his life something that would never be expected of a women and even in smaller examples guys are expected to risk bodily harm doing hard jobs while women are not. I have experienced this first hand at almost every single job I have ever been at. When ever this is any kind of physically taxing job I was expected to do it so a woman wouldn't even if she was perfectly capable and I have things I needed to do already. I am also not talking jobs where she wouldn't be able to lift something cause I get that I understand if you can't lift something and need help.

10). Guys can't enjoy spending time with children. If you are a guy and like spending time with kids and working with them or what not you have to be insanely careful that somebody doesn't drop the pedo label. You could have done nothing wrong but the second someone says something you are risking life and limb to avoid prison over someone who saw you simply smiling watching kids play. The whole thing is insane I get protecting your kids from predators which is only common sense but it is a conclusion people jump to way to easily and they basically have made it so only guys can be them too.

11). Guys are not allowed to defend their sex socially. If you are a guy and you mention having issues being a guy people will attack you like a flock of crows. Even you here have done it with your original post, sure you weren't to bad and you last post was very reasonable but you can just imagine being in a public area especially with women around.

There are more issues too but I think this is a good place to stop. To be honest if the feminist movement didn't exist then I wouldn't really be for the mens rights movement because it only focuses on men but it is sorta necessary to balance out the one sidedness of the feminist movement. At the end of the day I am more for people not defining each other by gender except when it is really logical.

Your answer has immediately proven that not all MRAs are just sexists who are uncomfortable with having to treat women as equals, so thatīs a good start!

I suppose the best way for me to do this is to respond point by point:

1 and 8). I donīt really know much about Positive Discrimination so I can neither confirm nor deny what you say here. My attitude tends to be that itīs good if it works, but I also get the impression that it quite often doesnīt. Overall Iīm inclined to disagree because it still seems to me that men occupy far more senior positions in most busineses, but thatīs just the impression I get. I have no statistical evidence to back it up since Iīm a History student, and whilst this kind of thing interests me, it doesnīt quite to the extent that Iīm likely to go reading up about it.

2). I donīt 100% disagree with this, though neither does it seem to be a particularly prevalent problem. Iīve never seen any man be victimised for staying at home and caring for the children instead of having a job, but I can imagine it happening in more conservative sectors of society.

3). Fair enough, I canīt argue with that.

4). I think this one may be a cultural difference. As far as I know in the UK there arenīt any government grants for students simply because they are female.

5, 6 and 9). This is a difference of interpretation. For you, these are signs that men are considered to be of less value when it comes to violence and death, whereas for me it shows that women are unfairly seen to be useless and weak and unable to take care of themseves. I doubt either of us has any chance of convincing the other as to which interpretation is correct, but since greater gender equality would sort out the problem either way, Iīd say weīre on the same side however you look at it! I am prepared to concede that in all three of these points it is men who get the short end of the stick, but in my opinion these problems are generally highly exaggerated (apart from conscription, which is an absolute violation of goodness and morality) and are less widespread that other issues which affect women.

7). Do you have other examples? I donīt deny the validity of this point, only that the breast cancer example isnīt enough on its own to justify it, and Iīd like to know more.

10). I agree with this one. Once two female friends and I found a lost child in the city centre, and whilst they comforted the girl I kept my distance because I was too afraid to be seen in any way interacting with a strangerīs child.

11). Iīm going to put this one down to most peopleīs experience of MRAs. You have surprised me with how reasonable and non-sexist you are (and I mean that seriously, you seem like a pretty cool guy), but that doesnīt change the fact that many MRAs, at least online, come across not as people looking out for menīs rights, but as misogynist pricks who in reality just want to undo the progress women have made in the last decades. Once again, this doesnīt apply to you. However, since that is the image a lot of people, myself included, have in their head when they thing "MRA", a somewhat negative reaction seems understandable.

I guess my conlusion is that we actually do agree on a number of points, and where we disagree the differences are relatively minor. I think the main thing that distinguishes our perspectives is that you consider the societal and legal phenomena which oppress men to be more common and pernicious than those which punish women, whilst I find them to be overall less serious and widespread. Wow, whoīd have thought that an feminist and an MRA would have so much in common?

I don't know about any other countries, but in Australia if you live together long enough (I think >6mths) you're considered "defacto relationship" anyway and if you split up it can end up in civil court to divide assets. So it's not like you're in a better position than if you were married. So being married is advantageous as you're screwed anyway if you divorce, but this way you have greater legal and financial benefits.

wizzy555:

Phasmal:

Retrograde:

snip.

1) Boyfriend could also divorce me too.
2) We both share everything anyway, so us even breaking up would be a big fucked up mess of who gets what
3) Prenups are a thing.
4) You can't complain about welfare AND child support. Kid's gotta eat somehow. One or the other.

Seriously, if either of us were that worried, we'd get a prenup. Sure it's not romantic, but neither is life. =P

I know lots of single mothers. I was raised by a single mother. Needless to say, not one of them just kicked their man to the curb because it's soooooo easy to be a single mother. A lot of them just happened to have had failed relationships, it happens.
And do some young girls think getting a baby is an easy way to get a house? Yeah, but when I was on the verge of becoming homeless and had a meeting with an authority, the people there didn't want to know unless I was pregnant. So... yeah, systems fucking up the people more than the other way round IMO.

I have a sneaking suspicion you and I might be on different sides of some kind of fence here. It's cool, I don't mind disagreeing with people.

EDIT: Though I will hold my hand up to some ignorance on divorce, never really having had experience with it before. My parents divorce was messed up but the actual division of stuff part was fairly simple.

A minor point but prenups are usually not respected (by judges) in the UK.

Prenuptial agreements are often thrown out in US courts as well. Usually all a woman has to do is claim it was sighned under some kind of duress, or the terms weren't properly explained. Even a woman saying she had to sighn the prenump as a condition to be married was enough to claim it was under duress.

DevilWithaHalo:
So there are certainly reasons to, if you want to run the risk of divorce, currently sitting at roughly 50%.

The problem with statements about the divorce percentage is that it address the entire population, when there are varying influences depending on the demographic. Some people are much more likely to get divorced, like serial monogamists who are married multiple times in their life and those who marry very young. Likewise other demographics have much lower divorce rates for cultural reasons or because of the education level of both partners. To lump them all together isn't helpful.

(And even if it was a hard 50% chance, is a coin flips chance worth it for a lifetime of happiness? I guess I'm an optimist)

MelasZepheos:

Jesus frickin' weeps. 'Weomen hold all the cards in reproductive rights.' 'well that's all true and I agree with that completely...'

Yeah. No.

But that is true. (And I do agree with that completely).

Consider two hypotheticals:

Scenario one: Two unmarried people. Woman gets pregnant. Male wants it. Female does not. She can get an abortion without owing the man anything (which sucks for the guy but is obviously necessary). She can alternately have the kid and then put it up for adoption. If she does so, in the United States, the man will, in many states, literally have to ADOPT HIS OWN CHILD, and the woman will not (in the majority of states) be forced to pay him any child support. She has the ability, even with adoption, to abort her status as the mother.

Scenario two: Two unmarried people. Woman gets pregnant. Female wants it. Male does not. She has the child. The male is currently not allowed to abort his status as the father. Even if he chooses not to stay with her, he's forced to pay for a child that, were the situation reversed, would have been put up for adoption (or aborted, but that is a touchier point for many). His life, if he did not plan on having children, is now (at least financially) ruined, if he wasn't already just barely scraping by to begin with.

The point here is that the man's fate, when there is any disagreement, is completely at the mercy of the female's, whether he wants the child or not, and whether SHE wants the child or not.

And this is certainly not the only example of the courts being completely sided towards females. Lower sentences for the exact same crimes. More likely to receive no jail time at all for a conviction. FAR less likely to lose custody, even when there is evidence of abuse by the mother. On the flip side, we have men being ordered to continue paying child support for a child that he found out wasn't his because he had already assumed a "parental role," with the female receiving no punishment for both cheating on him, lying about it, and fraudulently suckering him into paying for it.

I don't even know anything about divorce law, but the psychologist in the video clearly argues that it, too, is skewed against men.

Ratties:
See marriage as a joke with no funny punchline. When I told people that I think marriage is a horrible idea, they get so pissed off. After all, some of the rudest people I have ever met are married. Makes no sense to me on paper. Pretty much break it down from a mans point of view. Real pain of a possible divorce.(Which will likely happen) Of course you have to hang out with people on her side that you can't stand. Of course you have to have sex with the same person, again, again, again. Then there is the boredom of the married man, going to the Pottery Barn and talking to other boring married couples.

I'm sorry, I was already chuckling while reading this thread but your post made me burst out laughing. Your argument is more against the woman you may marry than marriage itself. If you want to marry but sleep with other people, have an open marriage. If you don't want to go to Pottery Barn, marry a person that dislikes Pottery Barn as much as you do. Don't compromise on things that will be eventual deal breakers for you and I'm sure whatever relationship you choose to have will be fine, (and Pottery Barn free.)

OT: I'm not the target for this thread, being a married woman, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyways. I think child support and custody laws are skewed towards women and some justifiably so. For example, if a woman doesn't want a child she can abort it, but if a man wants to keep it he can't force her to carry and give birth to it. It's unfair and I can understand why it's unfair, so in situations like this I tend to hope for a third option. The invention of an artificial womb perhaps, that way the woman doesn't have to carry the child and the man can keep his baby.

Child support gets really blurry for me and shouldn't have anything to do with gender. It takes two to tango(in the case of consensual procreation) and if the fetus is not aborted or given up for adoption, then it should be provided for. It should be taken case by case in an attempt to find a solution that works, or is at least manageable, for everyone involved; with an emphasis given to the needs of the child.

As for marriage, I frankly don't think there is skew towards one gender. I think the person going into the marriage with more financial stability has the disadvantage. Alimony can be filed for by both genders and can be extreme at times. (Why did Madonna have to pay Guy Ritchie 75 million?! That is a crazy amount.) My fix would be to have better regulation in the amount of money a person can receive from alimony payments and a strong push for prenuptial agreements to be signed by every couple and to be adhered to in the case of divorce.

Personally, I married my husband on sort of a whim. After seven years of living together, we attempted to file our taxes jointly, only to discover that common law marriage didn't exist in our state. On our way home we passed the court house and decided to purchase a marriage license. While there, we inquired about a judge that could marry us, but he was on vacation. The secretary was kind enough to point us to a person that could. So I got married in a hair salon, in my PJs for $25 in total. We are incapable of having children and we don't own any property. For us it was a fairly easy decision.

Try to make smart legal choices before going into marriage, choose your spouse wisely, and don't have unprotected sex if you don't want children. At least then, if you get burned in the divorce, you can look back and legitimately say you did everything you could to prevent the mess.

amaranth_dru:
Marriage. Issues I have with the institution isn't really to do with what you get out of it, but what happens (statistically) when it doesn't work, aka DIVORCE.
1. Alimony: If two people divorce, its not right to me that one person has to pay the other a fucking stipend. I don't see many jobs do this if they decide you are no longer working out for the company... Severence pay doesn't last forever, its a one-time payoff. And more often than not the guy ends up paying the woman. I thought we were going for gender "equality", so why is it the man supporting the "poor divorced woman" trope being perpetuated?
2. Child support should go both ways. A side note: Women don't make the best parents. A good parent isn't limited to gender. This is coming from someone who has experience in this area. EVERY case is different and a good Dad is just as valid as a good Mom. But I hardly ever hear of deadbeat mommas... cuz its ok for mommy to abandon the kid, but if Dad ain't paying he's a shithead.
3. I don't think someone is entitled to half of the "assets" just because they were married. If one person makes more than the other, then that person is entitled to what they made. EQUALITY. Its all or nothing folks.

Basically the whole idea of marriage is bullshit when it comes down to it, why? Because its so easy to fuck over someone you're married to by divorcing them.
I am of the mind that if I'm marrying someone, I'm sticking it out. Til death.
End of story.
Or don't get fucking married.

This, all this.

And I'm an unemployed woman right now.

If ever I was to get into a serious relationship again I'd lay ground rules, and if ever I married it would be a prenup of "what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours, what's ours is split right down the middle when we buy it and if we part". Thankfully last time he had nothing and didn't take anything of mine.

That all being said, I'm 30 and still single and have no need to be in a relationship. Sex would be great, but I have my cat I can cuddle, and for companionship and financial security I live with my twin. And even being unemployed I pay my half of everything. And we have a spreadsheet of everything we jointly own/inherited and who gets what should we ever part, even down to some of our books.

Xisin:

Ratties:
See marriage as a joke with no funny punchline. When I told people that I think marriage is a horrible idea, they get so pissed off. After all, some of the rudest people I have ever met are married. Makes no sense to me on paper. Pretty much break it down from a mans point of view. Real pain of a possible divorce.(Which will likely happen) Of course you have to hang out with people on her side that you can't stand. Of course you have to have sex with the same person, again, again, again. Then there is the boredom of the married man, going to the Pottery Barn and talking to other boring married couples.

I'm sorry, I was already chuckling while reading this thread but your post made me burst out laughing. Your argument is more against the woman you may marry than marriage itself. If you want to marry but sleep with other people, have an open marriage. If you don't want to go to Pottery Barn, marry a person that dislikes Pottery Barn as much as you do. Don't compromise on things that will be eventual deal breakers for you and I'm sure whatever relationship you choose to have will be fine, (and Pottery Barn free.)

OT: I'm not the target for this thread, being a married woman, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyways. I think child support and custody laws are skewed towards women and some justifiably so. For example, if a woman doesn't want a child she can abort it, but if a man wants to keep it he can't force her to carry and give birth to it. It's unfair and I can understand why it's unfair, so in situations like this I tend to hope for a third option. The invention of an artificial womb perhaps, that way the woman doesn't have to carry the child and the man can keep his baby.

Child support gets really blurry for me and shouldn't have anything to do with gender. It takes two to tango(in the case of consensual procreation) and if the fetus is not aborted or given up for adoption, then it should be provided for. It should be taken case by case in an attempt to find a solution that works, or is at least manageable, for everyone involved; with an emphasis given to the needs of the child.

As for marriage, I frankly don't think there is skew towards one gender. I think the person going into the marriage with more financial stability has the disadvantage. Alimony can be filed for by both genders and can be extreme at times. (Why did Madonna have to pay Guy Ritchie 75 million?! That is a crazy amount.) My fix would be to have better regulation in the amount of money a person can receive from alimony payments and a strong push for prenuptial agreements to be signed by every couple and to be adhered to in the case of divorce.

Personally, I married my husband on sort of a whim. After seven years of living together, we attempted to file our taxes jointly, only to discover that common law marriage didn't exist in our state. On our way home we passed the court house and decided to purchase a marriage license. While there, we inquired about a judge that could marry us, but he was on vacation. The secretary was kind enough to point us to a person that could. So I got married in a hair salon, in my PJs for $25 in total. We are incapable of having children and we don't own any property. For us it was a fairly easy decision.

Try to make smart legal choices before going into marriage, choose your spouse wisely, and don't have unprotected sex if you don't want children. At least then, if you get burned in the divorce, you can look back and legitimately say you did everything you could to prevent the mess.

More often than not, the people you think need advice, in fact have already known what you have told them.

Ratties:
"snip"

More often than not, the people you think need advice, in fact have already known what you have told them.

Of course, but I go with rule that I'd rather repeat something they might have already heard, than say nothing and assume they already know. Besides Pottery Barn is a terrifying fate...there can not be enough warnings where accent throw pillows are concerned.

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