I was inspired to write this by a post I made just a little while ago. Did a search and couldn't find anything like this, although, there was a virtual reality thread, it didn't really discuss anything this "hardcore".

Firstly, let me define mind uploading. Mind uploading would be taking your brainwaves and emulating it on a computer, basically, running a copy of your brain in a computer, except it wouldn't be a copy, it would be "cut and paste" (aka the computer function I'm sure you're all familiar with).
Let's assume that this is indeed possible in this theoretical issue. Let's also assume that you truely transfer yourself, not just a copy, to this computer, and you will no longer need any energy source other than electricity because, essentially, you have become a computer program. Let's also assume that this simulation replicates reality to an extreme degree, like in the Matrix.

Considering all the things that could go wrong from business to politics to military to personal use to criminal activity or any combination of these, do you think it's an ethical idea?

Of course, the term ethical is a subjective concept, just give your opinion as you see it.

Hope I got all the options.

edit:

I think it may help if I mention that this reality CAN replicate reality to an extreme degree, but in no way is this mandatory. There will be varying reality "options" or "servers" from living-and-breathing-as-you-read-this-realistic to anime-esque to w/e other kind of visual interface possible.

edit2:

IMPORTANT

I totally forgot this, but seeing how computers have a finite capacity, unless you have a private run simulation, most people would probably only get to live a few lifetimes before mandatory deletion!
Take this into account please.

I think if someone is on their deathbed, and they opted to do this, it would be ethical, as it would give them a chance at a sort of eternal life. But it brings up the question of whether your self is defined by your soul, or a series of brain waves that could be transferred to a computer.

They do that in the Venture Bros., and it's 50/50 on whether it's ethical or not.

Personally, I'd like to learn more about it before I'd form my opinion.

Thought should never be a crime!! Or at least I would hope so. Because i get some crazy thoughts every now and then. But for recreational purposes i think such a machine would be hilarious/disturbing. I would want a machine like that for animals. Like you point it at your dog and it shows an image of a chicken leg I would know to get it for dinner.

xitel:
I think if someone is on their deathbed, and they opted to do this, it would be ethical, as it would give them a chance at a sort of eternal life. But it brings up the question of whether your self is defined by your soul, or a series of brain waves that could be transferred to a computer.

Regardless of how you define yourself, in my scenario, you would indeed by self aware inside the simulation, as you are no doubt [self-aware] at this moment, reading this quote message.

It'll happen eventually. People after digital immortality, people vacating their brains while extensive neural-reconstruction takes place and your government/corporate bastard types ripping someone's mind from their body, then riffling through it to find whatever information they want, before simply erasing the thing and disposing of the body.

Sure, the last will be illegal and the first two heavily regulated for a while, but by the time any legal limitations are introduced, we'll already have a steadily growing population of digital citizens, demanding the same rights as everyone else.

I don't know. My problem with these scenarios is that transhuman concepts are especially alien to me for some reason. Don't bat an eye to shoggoths, but questions of human and machine cause indecision.

It depends on alot of factors; for one thing, there's a major difference in the way our minds work, and the way a program works. You would either get very bored, very fast, or you wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to process all the events.

But given a perfect interface, and a method to bring humans to computer speeds, you would have essentially Heaven/Nirvana/Elysian Fields/Limbo/....

So long as you know how to program in whatever wacky languages they have in the future.

I don't think there's so much of the moral issues as there are technical ones.

It's an interesting concept, particularly if you get a chance at Immortal life. Hah, what if you could copy and paste your consciousness into SONY's HOME or Second Life? Just let the character go about their day and see what choices they make. That would be quite awesome. Like having a virtual pet, but it's you.

I say, why not. As long as I don't have to go to Switzerland to get it done.

fullmetalangel:

xitel:
I think if someone is on their deathbed, and they opted to do this, it would be ethical, as it would give them a chance at a sort of eternal life. But it brings up the question of whether your self is defined by your soul, or a series of brain waves that could be transferred to a computer.

Regardless of how you define yourself, in my scenario, you would indeed by self aware inside the simulation, as you are no doubt [self-aware] at this moment, reading this quote message.

Well, that raises the question of your soul. Should it you be allowed to die so that you can go to heaven? Or would the digital world be a man-made heaven? There's actually a pretty interesting book series on this topic called Otherland by Tad Williams I believe. You should check it out. Although I warn you, it's freakishly long.

EDIT: Sorry, I had the book title wrong earlier, it's Otherland.

Spleeni:
I don't think there's so much of the moral issues as there are technical ones.

How about, as someone pointed out, criminal use of digital information, made even worse by the fact that this "information" is a human being (then again, in this situation, the definition of "human being" is pretty hazy).

xitel:
Well, that raises the question of your soul. Should it you be allowed to die so that you can go to heaven? Or would the digital world be a man-made heaven? There's actually a pretty interesting book series on this topic called Otherworld by Tad Williams I believe. You should check it out. Although I warn you, it's freakishly long.

Well, if you believe in a soul, then that would add to your opinion of whether this is ethical or not. Me, being a.... I forget the term but w/e, atheist and non-superstitious, I don't believe in the soul so that's no problem for me.

edit: Thanks for the recommendation, I'll put the book on my wishlist =)

Puppeteer Putin:
It's an interesting concept, particularly if you get a chance at Immortal life. Hah, what if you could copy and paste your consciousness into SONY's HOME or Second Life? Just let the character go about their day and see what choices they make. That would be quite awesome. Like having a virtual pet, but it's you.

I say, why not. As long as I don't have to go to Switzerland to get it done.

The whole idea of a virtual pet that has actually attained conciousness is on pretty shaky moral ground in itself, just to let you know.

edit: Human level conciousness. I realize animals are concious (I made an animal conciousness thread a while ago :D) but society often overlooks that.

Aardvark:
It'll happen eventually. People after digital immortality, people vacating their brains while extensive neural-reconstruction takes place and your government/corporate bastard types ripping someone's mind from their body, then riffling through it to find whatever information they want, before simply erasing the thing and disposing of the body.

Sure, the last will be illegal and the first two heavily regulated for a while, but by the time any legal limitations are introduced, we'll already have a steadily growing population of digital citizens, demanding the same rights as everyone else.

This is pretty much the whole premise behind Ghost in the Shell, and it seems like one that's all too possible in our future.

I doubt that any person can truly upload their complete selves to digital media. My theory is that people have souls, and these souls won't transfer to media they aren't compatible with. So if somebody did upload a person's mind to the Internet, all they'd get would be a massive data pile.

Also, it's important to note that the human brain is many, many times more complex than the most advanced computer, and can store an almost infinite amount of data. Why transfer your data (or self) to an inferior OS? I mean, unless you were going to die anyway.

Immortality is cool only when you have something to watch, like lets say time. You could be immortal and watch humanity progress as a species. So if everybody did this, and became immortal, then wouldn't life become insanely boring? Its good in theory, but what happens then? If everybody is in this virtual reality, in a matrix kind of world, then there would be no need for the average joe. There would be no need for some white collar or for that matter blue collar person filing paper or shoveling cow shit. And if there is no need to go to work, no need to reproduce, is there any reason to live? When you think about it the main purpose of life is to fuck as much as possible and spread your own genes. But what is left when you replace genes with transistors? So no, to me this is not ethical, it demeans life in general and will surely bring about the destruction of the human race.

Hmmm abandon my mortal shell in order to live something similar to a half life? I think we all owe the universe a death at one point but I suppose if someone was to enter a vegetative state or die before their time it could be ethical. Oh I am at a lost :S

To Samurai Goomba:

To mathias53:

To Adam Jenson:

fullmetalangel:

Puppeteer Putin:
It's an interesting concept, particularly if you get a chance at Immortal life. Hah, what if you could copy and paste your consciousness into SONY's HOME or Second Life? Just let the character go about their day and see what choices they make. That would be quite awesome. Like having a virtual pet, but it's you.

I say, why not. As long as I don't have to go to Switzerland to get it done.

The whole idea of a virtual pet that has actually attained conciousness is on pretty shaky moral ground in itself, just to let you know.

edit: Human level conciousness. I realize animals are concious (I made an animal conciousness thread a while ago :D) but society often overlooks that.

Very true, just saying it would be cool. And ultimately it's you... That consciousness is a replica of you, not your actual self.

I suppose the real debate is over whether you still exist, if you are still an entity bound by laws, those of this and the virtual world. Is a virtual you still you? You chose to make a copy, so how does that other consciousness deal with it's creation and continue it's own life in the virtual realm. Does that replica just make decisions similar to what your physical self would have done, or do YOU still have ultimate control over it?

To mathias53:

Lets just say for sake of conversation that everybody jumped on this band wagon and downloaded themselves into the world. Ok so people can die but then how will people reproduce? Is there such thing as robot sex? If so im not sure i want to be there for that.

Puppeteer Putin:

fullmetalangel:

Puppeteer Putin:
It's an interesting concept, particularly if you get a chance at Immortal life. Hah, what if you could copy and paste your consciousness into SONY's HOME or Second Life? Just let the character go about their day and see what choices they make. That would be quite awesome. Like having a virtual pet, but it's you.

I say, why not. As long as I don't have to go to Switzerland to get it done.

The whole idea of a virtual pet that has actually attained conciousness is on pretty shaky moral ground in itself, just to let you know.

edit: Human level conciousness. I realize animals are concious (I made an animal conciousness thread a while ago :D) but society often overlooks that.

Very true, just saying it would be cool. And ultimately it's you... That consciousness is a replica of you, not your actual self.

I suppose the real debate is over whether you still exist, if you are still an entity bound by laws, those of this and the virtual world. Is a virtual you still you? You chose to make a copy, so how does that other consciousness deal with it's creation and continue it's own life in the virtual realm. Does that replica just make decisions similar to what your physical self would have done, or do YOU still have ultimate control over it?

Good questions and although they are meaningful, I did state in my OP that he/she in fact does have a mind of his/her own, regardless of how similar he/she is to you, and, I'm assuming here, but after enough time and personal experience of his/her own to be...

Oh god, I just realized how hugely complicated this whole deal is.

To make it clear, as far as I'm concerned, once the copy exists, he/she is a person by all rights.

erm...

what is the point of uploading yourself into a static computer when you could easily transfered into some kind of robotic death machine?

CapslockFury:
erm...

what is the point of uploading yourself into a static computer when you could easily transfered into some kind of robotic death machine?

Well, in a digital reality, you could be a robotic death machine with ten nuclear missile launching bazookas on your back if you want ;P

fullmetalangel:

Puppeteer Putin:

fullmetalangel:

Puppeteer Putin:
It's an interesting concept, particularly if you get a chance at Immortal life. Hah, what if you could copy and paste your consciousness into SONY's HOME or Second Life? Just let the character go about their day and see what choices they make. That would be quite awesome. Like having a virtual pet, but it's you.

I say, why not. As long as I don't have to go to Switzerland to get it done.

The whole idea of a virtual pet that has actually attained conciousness is on pretty shaky moral ground in itself, just to let you know.

edit: Human level conciousness. I realize animals are concious (I made an animal conciousness thread a while ago :D) but society often overlooks that.

Very true, just saying it would be cool. And ultimately it's you... That consciousness is a replica of you, not your actual self.

I suppose the real debate is over whether you still exist, if you are still an entity bound by laws, those of this and the virtual world. Is a virtual you still you? You chose to make a copy, so how does that other consciousness deal with it's creation and continue it's own life in the virtual realm. Does that replica just make decisions similar to what your physical self would have done, or do YOU still have ultimate control over it?

Good questions and although they are meaningful, I did state in my OP that he/she in fact does have a mind of his/her own, regardless of how similar he/she is to you, and, I'm assuming here, but after enough time and personal experience of his/her own to be...

Oh god, I just realized how hugely complicated this whole deal is.

To make it clear, as far as I'm concerned, once the copy exists, he/she is a person by all rights.

OK fair enough.. then what's the point? You're just making another person. It's like making a clone of yourself; if one of you passes away, the other may still think like you but ultimately you are not prolonging you're life, you have made another.

Then comes in the issue of the creation of life... we've come full circle!

Hmmmm. Capslockfury actually brings up a good point Fullmetalangel. You have stated that we would enter a world similar in design to the Matrix, yes? But how would you interact with people who haven't given their body up?

Adam Jenson:
Hmmmm. Capslockfury actually brings up a good point Fullmetalangel. You have stated that we would enter a world similar in design to the Matrix, yes? But how would you interact with people who haven't given their body up?

There in lies the reasoning behind, Yes, it's ethical, but I wouldn't do it anyway.

If that's what you chose, then you forfeit any and all advantages of a digital world, simple as that.

edit: Actually, there is still the possibility of transferring your mind into something else, like say, a robot, or a computer screen.

Puppeteer Putin:
OK fair enough.. then what's the point? You're just making another person. It's like making a clone of yourself; if one of you passes away, the other may still think like you but ultimately you are not prolonging you're life, you have made another.

Then comes in the issue of the creation of life... we've come full circle!

I think you've lost the original idea of the thread in this conversation :P

When you upload your mind, it is not a copy, you are cutting out your "soul" and inserting it into a digital medium so there is still a point =D

fullmetalangel:

CapslockFury:
erm...

what is the point of uploading yourself into a static computer when you could easily transfered into some kind of robotic death machine?

Well, in a digital reality, you could be a robotic death machine with ten nuclear missile launching bazookas on your back if you want ;P

I'm boycotting his thread as it is what started the ten thousand year war over the transfer of consciousness from man to machine in Total Annihilation.

CapslockFury:
I'm boycotting his thread as it is what started the ten thousand year war over the transfer of consciousness from man to machine in Total Annihilation.

Don't be like that T_T

It was a serious question and it's been asked before and will be asked again. I just brought it to the Escapist x_x

edit: Although, this must be the best compliment I've ever recieved :D

CapslockFury:

fullmetalangel:

CapslockFury:
erm...

what is the point of uploading yourself into a static computer when you could easily transfered into some kind of robotic death machine?

Well, in a digital reality, you could be a robotic death machine with ten nuclear missile launching bazookas on your back if you want ;P

I'm boycotting his thread as it is what started the ten thousand year war over the transfer of consciousness from man to machine in Total Annihilation.

Really? I thought they just argued over what color armor looked best.

I think it's important to remember when discussing uploading one's mind that a computer uses just electrical signals while the brain is a complex biological machine that incorporates both electrical and chemical signals. So to those who said it wouldn't actually be you in the computer but just a data bank, that's in part true. In order to transfer the "soul" the chemical make-up of the brain must be transfered as well.

On the ethics of it, I don't see why it's not ethical to wish for something else for one's own existance. The unethical part would be the government or private companies messing with the downloaded conciousness.

Also, downloading one's mind into a robot or android could provide us with a form of immortality or at least an extended lifespan that could then make it possible for a machine based human concioussness to colonize distant planets and continue the human race in some form. The android humans could even bring preserved human DNA to make biological humans on the colonized planet but that opens a whole other can of worms.

Dugarel:
I think it's important to remember when discussing uploading one's mind that a computer uses just electrical signals while the brain is a complex biological machine that incorporates both electrical and chemical signals. So to those who said it wouldn't actually be you in the computer but just a data bank, that's in part true. In order to transfer the "soul" the chemical make-up of the brain must be transfered as well.

On the ethics of it, I don't see why it's not ethical to wish for something else for one's own existance. The unethical part would be the government or private companies messing with the downloaded conciousness.

Also, downloading one's mind into a robot or android could provide us with a form of immortality or at least an extended lifespan that could then make it possible for a machine based human concioussness to colonize distant planets and continue the human race in some form. The android humans could even bring preserved human DNA to make biological humans on the colonized planet but that opens a whole other can of worms.

Welcome to the Escapist and thank you for bringing in some very valid points. However, me being the contrary person that I am, would like to counter those points =)

Firstly, those chemical signals could be replaced with electrical signals that serve the same function. In fact, if you get rid of the rest of the body, I'm not entirely sure you even need those chemical signals, since you'd basically be a disembodied brain given a humanoid (or otherwise) shape thanks to the simulation you have inserted yourself, or been inserted, into.

Secondly, there's always economical, and emotional issues. If your mother, father, child, or best friend one day decided to upload themself into a computer, there could be some serious emotional backlash. Also, what exactly would a digital citizen do for the economy? How about hard labor? Or just maintaining these computers? Would it cost money? Would it be government funded?

And finally, last but not least, colonization. Intriguing idea you have there, and it does indeed remove many of the constraints of space travel such as the biological limits and necessities of a human being. Unfortunately, with mind uploading, if it is indeed in public hands (and if it's not, that's a whole other issue) I don't think colonization would be worth it.

Ethics is over the moment i can transfer myself into a robot.

Also, i think that trent should give those ladies their purses back.

AS long as the government doesn't tamper with the data, or the hosting company make me "go gold" before I can skip the ads, then by all means.

I mean, it'd be a sort of heaven, wouldn't it? Being able to have the world exactly as you desire it?

Hrm, but then there would be no struggle. And life without struggle is boring as all hell.

Decisions, decisions.

But no, I'd say it's ethical. My particular religious institution may disagree, but I don't have to agree with what they say.

as long as theres no fucking loading times or glitches, and you could tell when people were trying to mod with it, then by all means.

Flying-Emu:

But no, I'd say it's ethical. My particular religious institution may disagree, but I don't have to agree with what they say.

And i shall find you the most agreeable, emulatable netizen i have seen in a while.

There's no need to become omnipotent or set yourself up in a challengeless reality or go and finish everything as quickly as possible - even if you did those things if you could edit or remove your own memories you could just continually relive or redo those things.

On the ethical side i think that since uploading only involves you then when/if it finally rolls around it will be well within your rights - the whole 'it-will-destroy-society' crowd might want to consider that change isn't unethical and censorship is a horrid pop song played on a plastic piano made of panda tears.

There's another book you should read that deals with very similar issues - Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan (and I'll shamelessly plug my review while I'm at it).

And I voted "Yes, I would". I think I would just regret it if I chose not to (well, assuming I still had some kind of consciousness to regret with). And hey, I could always choose voluntary deletion, and then it'd be like I had never done it in the first place, right?