Dugarel: I think it's important to remember when discussing uploading one's mind that a computer uses just electrical signals while the brain is a complex biological machine that incorporates both electrical and chemical signals. So to those who said it wouldn't actually be you in the computer but just a data bank, that's in part true. In order to transfer the "soul" the chemical make-up of the brain must be transfered as well.
On the ethics of it, I don't see why it's not ethical to wish for something else for one's own existance. The unethical part would be the government or private companies messing with the downloaded conciousness.
Also, downloading one's mind into a robot or android could provide us with a form of immortality or at least an extended lifespan that could then make it possible for a machine based human concioussness to colonize distant planets and continue the human race in some form. The android humans could even bring preserved human DNA to make biological humans on the colonized planet but that opens a whole other can of worms.
Welcome to the Escapist and thank you for bringing in some very valid points. However, me being the contrary person that I am, would like to counter those points =)
Firstly, those chemical signals could be replaced with electrical signals that serve the same function. In fact, if you get rid of the rest of the body, I'm not entirely sure you even need those chemical signals, since you'd basically be a disembodied brain given a humanoid (or otherwise) shape thanks to the simulation you have inserted yourself, or been inserted, into.
Secondly, there's always economical, and emotional issues. If your mother, father, child, or best friend one day decided to upload themself into a computer, there could be some serious emotional backlash. Also, what exactly would a digital citizen do for the economy? How about hard labor? Or just maintaining these computers? Would it cost money? Would it be government funded?
And finally, last but not least, colonization. Intriguing idea you have there, and it does indeed remove many of the constraints of space travel such as the biological limits and necessities of a human being. Unfortunately, with mind uploading, if it is indeed in public hands (and if it's not, that's a whole other issue) I don't think colonization would be worth it.
Thanks for the welcome
Replacing the chemical signals of the brain and maintaining the whole concioussness of the person may be more difficult than is reasonable. The majority of our emotions, that which makes up our soul some would argue, is comprised almost entirely of hormonal balances in the brain and body and replicating them electronically, although possible, seems far more difficult than simply copying what the brain does.
I agree with you on the second point, there are always going to be issues. Assuming the digital citizens could download themselves, or at least a part of themselves, into a robot they could do more complex and dangerous tasks. Bomb-defusing robots or military applications to bio-hazard and chemical spill clean-up for various companies, and in return for their services they receive server space. Beyond that I think androids could be provided for those who no longer wish to rent server space and wish to once again mingle with the rest of humanity. And yes, it would cost money. Everything does in modern society, unfortunatly.
I still think colonization would be worth while, if not to find a new suitable home for biological life, it would still help to satisfy our never-ending curiosity about things. Humans are born explorers, which is ashame our scientists can't get funding to conduct space exploration or smash atoms together without offering stupid corporate gimics. It would not only provide new scientific knowledge but it would also provide those seemingly immortal androids something to do instead of constantly repeating the same thing over and over in a simulation.
Also, I was thinking about evolution and how the goal of all life is to reach the optimal situation for survival. Humans have now developed both phisicaly and mentaly to the point that those who would have been left behind to die in the past now live wholesome and productive lives, so would downloading ourselves into a computer to extend our lives indefinetly be the next step up to ensure our survival. Sure we can't necissarily reproduce biologically, but after becoming immortal is that really necissary?
I hope this makes sense, it's getting late here and I've been writing three other papers besides this.
...Simply put: Fuck ethics, I deserve to live forever. Yeah, space issues. I'll just become massively important, so I can't be deleted. Maybe I'll kill everyone who knows how to make pie and become the last person who knows how. Practically guarentees eternal life, because nobody wants to go without pie. Even virtual pie. On a more serious note: Really, fuck ethics. I don't even see anything wrong with extending your lifetime, even if it is just virtual. Especially if it could be a .hack//Sign-esque world, with interesting magics and such. TL;DR, I think the idea is pretty excellent, and would gladly take part.
Replacing the chemical signals of the brain and maintaining the whole concioussness of the person may be more difficult than is reasonable. The majority of our emotions, that which makes up our soul some would argue, is comprised almost entirely of hormonal balances in the brain and body and replicating them electronically, although possible, seems far more difficult than simply copying what the brain does.
Well, yes, I realize it may be more complicated than ... I wouldn't say possible but it would definitely be a feat of truely epic proportions if humanity achieves it. Of course, this thread was about the ethics of mind uploading, not the possibility, so I put in the OP that the assumption in this case was that yes, it is possible, and it can be done to an exceedingly refined point.
I agree with you on the second point, there are always going to be issues. Assuming the digital citizens could download themselves, or at least a part of themselves, into a robot they could do more complex and dangerous tasks. Bomb-defusing robots or military applications to bio-hazard and chemical spill clean-up for various companies, and in return for their services they receive server space. Beyond that I think androids could be provided for those who no longer wish to rent server space and wish to once again mingle with the rest of humanity. And yes, it would cost money. Everything does in modern society, unfortunatly.
Oh yeah, that slipped my mind, I already mentioned doing that to someone else but somehow I couldn't connect from that to actual work.
I still think colonization would be worth while, if not to find a new suitable home for biological life, it would still help to satisfy our never-ending curiosity about things. Humans are born explorers, which is ashame our scientists can't get funding to conduct space exploration or smash atoms together without offering stupid corporate gimics. It would not only provide new scientific knowledge but it would also provide those seemingly immortal androids something to do instead of constantly repeating the same thing over and over in a simulation.
Yes, human curiosity is a pretty major force but I don't think anyone's ever going to get the funding to actually colonize a new planet/asteroid/moon unless there's a very good reason to.
I hope this makes sense, it's getting late here and I've been writing three other papers besides this.
Yes, you're making lots of sense, and sorry, I didn't mean to distract you from any work, thanks for the conversation, people like you are why I love the Escapist =)
Dugarel: I think it's important to remember when discussing uploading one's mind that a computer uses just electrical signals while the brain is a complex biological machine that incorporates both electrical and chemical signals. So to those who said it wouldn't actually be you in the computer but just a data bank, that's in part true. In order to transfer the "soul" the chemical make-up of the brain must be transfered as well.
Given a good enough model of physics and chemistry, you can run all the chemical reactions in simulation. Using a computer to simulate a physical process is really the basis of the modern sci-fi "uploading" idea. Or, expressed in terms of information theory and computer science: if the brain is a Turing machine, then a universal Turing machine can be used to simulate it.
mathias53: Lets just say for sake of conversation that everybody jumped on this band wagon and downloaded themselves into the world. Ok so people can die but then how will people reproduce? Is there such thing as robot sex? If so im not sure i want to be there for that.
If you have the technology to fully simulate every molecule of a human brain, you probably have the technology to create a virtual brain from scratch, creating children who were never "real". The tricky bit is managing its development to produce something that thinks in a human way (why you would want to do it that way is a different question).
mathias53: Lets just say for sake of conversation that everybody jumped on this band wagon and downloaded themselves into the world. Ok so people can die but then how will people reproduce? Is there such thing as robot sex? If so im not sure i want to be there for that.
If you have the technology to fully simulate every molecule of a human brain, you probably have the technology to create a virtual brain from scratch, creating children who were never "real". The tricky bit is managing its development to produce something that thinks in a human way (why you would want to do it that way is a different question).
-- Alex
You also have to think that as more people have virtual children, you would need more complex programming to run each and every one. Unless we were to place people's consciousness into a child program when they died in the virtual world. Assuming that people age and die in the virtual world, instead of living at the same age for eternity.
mathias53: Lets just say for sake of conversation that everybody jumped on this band wagon and downloaded themselves into the world. Ok so people can die but then how will people reproduce? Is there such thing as robot sex? If so im not sure i want to be there for that.
If you have the technology to fully simulate every molecule of a human brain, you probably have the technology to create a virtual brain from scratch, creating children who were never "real". The tricky bit is managing its development to produce something that thinks in a human way (why you would want to do it that way is a different question).
-- Alex
You also have to think that as more people have virtual children, you would need more complex programming to run each and every one. Unless we were to place people's consciousness into a child program when they died in the virtual world. Assuming that people age and die in the virtual world, instead of living at the same age for eternity.
the only possible way of this theory working, as in creating a virtual baby, would be if you followed the tabula rasa way of thinking. And if you dont know what tabula rasa is (no not the mmo) then go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa it basically means that babies are born with no initial programming and they learn through life experiences. If you could fabricate that then yeah it would be possible.
mathias53: the only possible way of this theory working, as in creating a virtual baby, would be if you followed the tabula rasa way of thinking. And if you dont know what tabula rasa is (no not the mmo) then go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa it basically means that babies are born with no initial programming and they learn through life experiences. If you could fabricate that then yeah it would be possible.
Why do you say that?
If you have the ability to truly simulate every detail of the biological development of a brain, then all of the information that's supposedly in it "innately" will be there.
the moral or ethical question is coverd id think by the choice to do it being up to the person donating the brain waves.
this reminds me of a star trek book i read ages ago, when there was a transporter 'malfunction' and an exact copy was made of spock, just some of the questions were, wich one was the original and did it in fact matter? the answer was supprising in that the book treated it by saying that an exact copy of something at the time of its CREATION was the same thing as the original and that in this case neither 'spock' had a more valid clame to being the original than the other.
in the case of simply uploading your mind into a machine its clear that your uplode wont BE you, any more than a clone of me, down to the sub-atomic level would BE me, the question really only takes on meaning if you can in fact transfer the soul, or if you propose to have the original destroyed during the process of uploading.
i use the transporter as an example because this whole concept has been done before, and done well. the argument is that during the process of transporation the original body is destroyed and an exact copy is created at another location, one way around the question of copy vrs original is by star trek using the concept that the matter that makes up the originals body is simply transfered and reconstituted at a new location and the argument seems to be that the soul is attached to the flesh and by simply reusing that flesh than the soul is not destroyed or set free from its bonds to the flesh. i dont know if i buy THAT argument, but i can say with some certianty that a mear copy of my brain waves, no matter how exact, wont be ME anymore than a toe nail clipping or a lock of hair is 'me' once cut. indeed the copy would have LESS clame to being me than a toe nail clipping or other thing of that nature simply because no part of the copy was EVER part of me.
ultimatly the question for me only becomes moral or ethical if you can transfer the soul. and even then as long as the person being asked to donate is allowed to make the decisions than morals or ethics neither one enter into the question.
and before anyone askes id say that NO "Data" is in fact NOT alive and isnt entitled to the rights of a truly living being.
OK fair enough.. then what's the point? You're just making another person. It's like making a clone of yourself; if one of you passes away, the other may still think like you but ultimately you are not prolonging you're life, you have made another.
Then comes in the issue of the creation of life... we've come full circle!
I'm pretty sure that in this "mind uploading" process, you're actually transferring your own consciousness into a computer. He said in the description it wouldn't be a copy, but more of a cut-and-paste. So you're not copying yourself, you're transferring your brain into a different shell.
But either way, the only way you could do that is by connecting a brain to a computer, and then the brain would probably die shortly after because of age, and the only thing you could do then would be to 'copy' the brain's data into a massive hard-drive, in which case it would be pointless, because you'd be running a simulation to satisfy a hard-drive, not a human.
If in this hypothetical universe, though, you could transfer the consciousness over to a computer, I would say it's totally fine for people on the brink of death, (especially scientists, so they could continue to benefit the world with their intelligence, until they became obsolete) but for people who are healthy and prime, it should be disallowed.
OK fair enough.. then what's the point? You're just making another person. It's like making a clone of yourself; if one of you passes away, the other may still think like you but ultimately you are not prolonging you're life, you have made another.
Then comes in the issue of the creation of life... we've come full circle!
I'm pretty sure that in this "mind uploading" process, you're actually transferring your own consciousness into a computer. He said in the description it wouldn't be a copy, but more of a cut-and-paste. So you're not copying yourself, you're transferring your brain into a different shell.
But either way, the only way you could do that is by connecting a brain to a computer, and then the brain would probably die shortly after because of age, and the only thing you could do then would be to 'copy' the brain's data into a massive hard-drive, in which case it would be pointless, because you'd be running a simulation to satisfy a hard-drive, not a human.
That's exactly what I was trying to say! I know I got slightly confused but in my own convoluted way that is exactly what I meant.
I agree on your second point. Those who have full function of all their senses shouldn't be allowed. However it would be good for the deaf and blind as it may give them a chance to experience senses their physical-self could not.
Puppeteer Putin: That's exactly what I was trying to say! I know I got slightly confused but in my own convoluted way that is exactly what I meant.
I agree on your second point. Those who have full function of all their senses shouldn't be allowed. However it would be good for the deaf and blind as it may give them a chance to experience senses their physical-self could not.
Why shouldn't it be allowed? What's wrong about it?
I think the general concept is awesome, although realistically implementing it could be a problem. Can anyone see this ever happening in the near future? If so, how? If not, why?
People believe in a soul for two reasons: 1) punishment/reward for action in life 2) that we're not just a mishmash of electro-chemical responses. boiling down the human experience into data is not a great idea either, what will happen while the law catches up to this new reality? will it be legal to kill someone as long as they're outside of their bodies? Then how long to where the flesh is merely an inconvenience to be shirked as often or as soon as possible? Who decides how long someone stays in this realm, who owns the data generated by the thoughts of the occupant (say I dream in the machine of a new doodad, would they be able to steal that idea?)
The examples that you've given in the initial post make me believe that these people who decide to live in the machine can be legally classified as goods (certainly not life, since as you've stated they no longer eat, excrete, and reproduce and those are vital for a scientific life classification as it is now). I can only begin to imagine the horror stories if MicroSoft or GOOGLE started to buy and sell 'Grandma' to enhance their own bottom lines.
I'd still do it occasionally though, just for experiencing things that are currently denied to me by either physics, biology, or our legal system. :D
Thanks for the welcome
Replacing the chemical signals of the brain and maintaining the whole concioussness of the person may be more difficult than is reasonable. The majority of our emotions, that which makes up our soul some would argue, is comprised almost entirely of hormonal balances in the brain and body and replicating them electronically, although possible, seems far more difficult than simply copying what the brain does.
I agree with you on the second point, there are always going to be issues. Assuming the digital citizens could download themselves, or at least a part of themselves, into a robot they could do more complex and dangerous tasks. Bomb-defusing robots or military applications to bio-hazard and chemical spill clean-up for various companies, and in return for their services they receive server space. Beyond that I think androids could be provided for those who no longer wish to rent server space and wish to once again mingle with the rest of humanity. And yes, it would cost money. Everything does in modern society, unfortunatly.
I still think colonization would be worth while, if not to find a new suitable home for biological life, it would still help to satisfy our never-ending curiosity about things. Humans are born explorers, which is ashame our scientists can't get funding to conduct space exploration or smash atoms together without offering stupid corporate gimics. It would not only provide new scientific knowledge but it would also provide those seemingly immortal androids something to do instead of constantly repeating the same thing over and over in a simulation.
Also, I was thinking about evolution and how the goal of all life is to reach the optimal situation for survival. Humans have now developed both phisicaly and mentaly to the point that those who would have been left behind to die in the past now live wholesome and productive lives, so would downloading ourselves into a computer to extend our lives indefinetly be the next step up to ensure our survival. Sure we can't necissarily reproduce biologically, but after becoming immortal is that really necissary?
I hope this makes sense, it's getting late here and I've been writing three other papers besides this.