This is a problem revolving around you and your friend, by some weird divine intervention you decided to rob a huge mansion, the first day goes by perfect, you run away with a bunch of expensive antiques and pockets full of apples. Since the mansion is still full of valuable stuff you repeat the action, but you are caught. You are seperated at the police station and are both questioned, they suspect that you two are behind the earlier robbery too, but they can't prove it.
They caught you breaking in, but this won't give you more then jail for 6 months, but if you betray your friend you can go free.
Point here is, that if you both betray each other, you'll both get 5 years in jail. If one betrays the other, while one keeps silent, the betrayer goes free and the silent one goes to jail for 10 years. If both keep silent you each get 6 months of jail.
What would you do? Betray your friend and go free or keep silent and hope for the best?

I think this goes in forum games?

stormcaller:
I think this goes in forum games?

Well, it's something you'll see if you have any kind of social sciences-course, in high school and university (I've seen it in economy, sociology, politics and psychology, yay. And I've seen it in philosophy class before that, even)

Anyhoo... If you would've asked me a few years ago, I would've picked the naïve option, and hope that the other person did as well. Now... not so. Rationally, the risks are too big, and to oversimplify it: If you say you did it, you'll be in jail anyhow. If you say you didn't do it, you have 1/2 chance not ending up in jail. If you ignore the length of the sentence, of course.

Saphatorael:

stormcaller:
I think this goes in forum games?

Well, it's something you'll see if you have any kind of social sciences-course, in high school and university (I've seen it in economy, sociology, politics and psychology, yay. And I've seen it in philosophy class before that, even)

Anyhoo... If you would've asked me a few years ago, I would've picked the naïve option, and hope that the other person did as well. Now... not so. Rationally, the risks are too big, and to oversimplify it: If you say you did it, you'll be in jail anyhow. If you say you didn't do it, you have 1/2 chance not ending up in jail. If you ignore the length of the sentence, of course.

/my brain goes boom and hence
/thread

Betray! It's the equilibrium point of the game. I have an exam which includes this problem in 8 days.

Here's the pay-off matrix, the first entry is for player 1, second for player 2.

C B
C |(0.5,0.5) (10, 0)|
B | (0, 10) (5,5) |

To find the equilibrium point(the point at which any player can be punished for moving away from their strategy) we use the min-max algorithm. We find the maximum possible time spent in jail for each strategy and then choose the one with the minimal value.

C B
C |(0.5,0.5) (10, 0)| 10
B | (0, 10) (5,5) | 5
10 5 5/5

We can see that the best strategy for both players is to Betray, risking a maximum jail time of 5 years. Co-operation risks a maximum jail time of 10 years.

(hmmmm anyway to preserve my whitespace?)

I swear I saw this somewhere else... In another form, but it was the same gist.

Either way, I would not mind if I got betrayed, 'cause it's only 6 months. However, I am oblivious to the world, so this may be worst than I think.

Saphatorael:

stormcaller:
I think this goes in forum games?

Rationally, the risks are too big, and to oversimplify it: If you say you did it, you'll be in jail anyhow. If you say you didn't do it, you have 1/2 chance not ending up in jail. If you ignore the length of the sentence, of course.

This.

Depends on the friend.
I have mates that I wouldn't betray before being subject to serious torture, and others that I wouldn't take any hits for, ever.

Jonathan Hexley:
I swear I saw this somewhere else... In another form, but it was the same gist.

Either way, I would not mind if I got betrayed, 'cause it's only 6 months. However, I am oblivious to the world, so this may be worst than I think.

Actually if you get betrayed you get 10 years in gaol. Betrayal would be the smartest option I guess because chances are that they will rat you out as well and five years is better then ten years.

Dommyboy:

Jonathan Hexley:
I swear I saw this somewhere else... In another form, but it was the same gist.

Either way, I would not mind if I got betrayed, 'cause it's only 6 months. However, I am oblivious to the world, so this may be worst than I think.

Actually if you get betrayed you get 10 years in gaol. Betray would be the smartest option I guess because chances are that they will rat you out as well and five years is better then ten years.

Bit of a dick move, must admit. Well then, betray, betray betray.

Nash equilibrium of this is to assume that humans are manipulative and will always betray you so use a tit for tat tactic unless the PD is extended to the nth amount. Did an essay on this last week :).

I'm pretty sure the best option is always to betray.

But I remember this coming up in the book The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. In it I think he talks about a professor who sets the Prisoners dilemma game up to be played 100 times in a row with the participants knowing the results of each game played. Prison sentences were replaced with a point system.

In it I think it turned out that the best strategy to win the most points overall or at least draw was to play "tit for tat". Where you always start the first game by not betraying, after that you play the same option unless they betray you. If they betray you then the next game you betray them as punishment (hence tit for tat) after that you go back to not betraying until they betray you again.

Hmm hope that makes sense. Anyway Dawkins used it as a zoological argument for why altruism develops in species or something like that. I'll try to find the book again to see if I remembered it properly.

Isn't this type of argument basically the finale of Golden Balls?

I love that bit - the look on the dumbarse's face who decided to split makes me feel so deliciously evil.

Depends on which friend. Anyone from my group through high school I'd trust to keep quiet. I think my flatmate would have at least a bit of fun if he got sent to jail, anyway. First time someone tried to rape him, he'd start to do a crap.
He also doens't plan on 'wiping' for at least a day before he has to get his prostate checked, if that's still necessary by the time we reach the necessary age for that intrusive examination.

Jonathan Hexley:
I swear I saw this somewhere else... In another form, but it was the same gist.

Knights O' The Ol' Republic :)

I would choose not to betray my friend. I would think that compared to 5 or 10 years, 6 months isn't so bad, leaving my accomplice without much incentive to betray me (assuming we both take the same choice). Unless of course, he thinks I'll betray him.

But then again.... we were both dishonest/amoral enough to break into a mansion and steal stuff, so who's to say my accomplice won't betray me because he

a) is a backstabbing bastard
b) believes that I'm a backstabbing bastard?

On second thought, I'm gonna go with that betrayal option.

If the scenario was caused by just "some weird divine intervention" as opposed to the conscious choice to break in said mansion, then ignore the last paragraph.

Duck Sandwich:

Jonathan Hexley:
I swear I saw this somewhere else... In another form, but it was the same gist.

Knights O' The Ol' Republic :)

Never played it.

We'll assume that the friend in question is my best friend, a fellow Escapist member by the alias of "Helmet."

Taking that into account, I'd hold my tongue. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that he's got my back. I'd stay silent, he'd do the same, and we'd only have six months. Not too bad.

Any of my other friends, though.....not quite sure. My friends suck.

Jonathan Hexley:
Never played it.

Knights O' The Ol' Republic was the first and only time I had heard it. (surprisingly, it never came up in any high school philosophy discussion)

In it, a computer asks you if you would betray one Zaalbar, one of your party members in said situation. If you say no, the computer will explain to you that you made the "wrong" choice, because "Zaalbar's family is mired in treachery." His entire life, he has been exposed to treachery, thus making him more likely to betray others.

Duck Sandwich:

Jonathan Hexley:
Never played it.

Knights O' The Ol' Republic was the first and only time I had heard it. (surprisingly, it never came up in any high school philosophy discussion)

In it, a computer asks you if you would betray one Zaalbar, one of your party members in said situation. If you say no, the computer will explain to you that you made the "wrong" choice, because "Zaalbar's family is mired in treachery." His entire life, he has been exposed to treachery, thus making him more likely to betray others.

Thank you, now if I ever play it, I'll learn to be a heartless bastard when it comes to that.

Also, I just remembered, it's the final round of Golden Balls where I heard it.

Roadie:
We'll assume that the friend in question is my best friend, a fellow Escapist member by the alias of "Helmet."

Taking that into account, I'd hold my tongue. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that he's got my back. I'd stay silent, he'd do the same, and we'd only have six months. Not too bad.

Any of my other friends, though.....not quite sure. My friends suck.

Yeah, most of our friends do suck. But I'm gonna have to agree with Mr. Roadie in this one. We stay silent and it's only six months, right? I can live with that.

Helmet:

Roadie:
We'll assume that the friend in question is my best friend, a fellow Escapist member by the alias of "Helmet."

Taking that into account, I'd hold my tongue. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that he's got my back. I'd stay silent, he'd do the same, and we'd only have six months. Not too bad.

Any of my other friends, though.....not quite sure. My friends suck.

Yeah, most of our friends do suck. But I'm gonna have to agree with Mr. Roadie in this one. We stay silent and it's only six months, right? I can live with that.

Yeah... but what if your friend freaks out? You'll be stuck with ten years!

Jolly Madness:

Helmet:

Roadie:
We'll assume that the friend in question is my best friend, a fellow Escapist member by the alias of "Helmet."

Taking that into account, I'd hold my tongue. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that he's got my back. I'd stay silent, he'd do the same, and we'd only have six months. Not too bad.

Any of my other friends, though.....not quite sure. My friends suck.

Yeah, most of our friends do suck. But I'm gonna have to agree with Mr. Roadie in this one. We stay silent and it's only six months, right? I can live with that.

Yeah... but what if your friend freaks out? You'll be stuck with ten years!

There is a chance that Roadie would pull a dick move and rat me out. It would be idiotic of me to say there's no way he would, because the thought would cross my mind to rat him out. But we've been through a lot, we've been damn near brothers for over a decade. I know him better than I know my real brother. It's a chance I would be willing to take.

....And if he did squeal, I'd kick the shit out of him when I got out....

Betray and blame everything on him, possibly blame a load of other crimes on him so he'll get life in prison and will never get out to enact revenge

Helmet:

Jolly Madness:

Helmet:

Roadie:
We'll assume that the friend in question is my best friend, a fellow Escapist member by the alias of "Helmet."

Taking that into account, I'd hold my tongue. I know, without a doubt in my mind, that he's got my back. I'd stay silent, he'd do the same, and we'd only have six months. Not too bad.

Any of my other friends, though.....not quite sure. My friends suck.

Yeah, most of our friends do suck. But I'm gonna have to agree with Mr. Roadie in this one. We stay silent and it's only six months, right? I can live with that.

Yeah... but what if your friend freaks out? You'll be stuck with ten years!

There is a chance that Roadie would pull a dick move and rat me out. It would be idiotic of me to say there's no way he would, because the thought would cross my mind to rat him out. But we've been through a lot, we've been damn near brothers for over a decade. I know him better than I know my real brother. It's a chance I would be willing to take.

....And if he did squeal, I'd kick the shit out of him when I got out....

If he's willing to betray you, I think he'll run away as far as he could and start a new life of crime and villainry, just because of you, you should feel flattered!

Betrayal is what I'm all about! XD

...oops my knife slipped...

basic game theory, betray them

i suppose the only factor is how much you like your friend

Yeah... there are some friends that I'd sacrifice without a moment's thought.

I would sacrafice. If i didnt he may betray me and ill get ten years. I dont want jail time (not even six months) and the worst that could happen would be five years (not six months but DEFINATLEY not 10 years!

Damnit, I hate that semi-paradox, but I guess I would betray.

I would keep quiet. I wouldn't even consider robbing a house with anyone I didn't trust with my life. I mean if you know he'd betray you in that situation, what would stop him from offing you and taking all the loot for himslef if the robbery was a succes?
So I guess it comes down to this: Three people in my life I would trust enough not to betray, the others will all be sitting in jail for ten years.

Duck Sandwich:
Knights O' The Ol' Republic :)

Beat me to it, I was going to bring that up. I remember, in that game, I chose not to betray, but only because I was Light Side and I wanted to spite that annoying computer.

Well, there's also another problem relating to this. You're a poor farmer living up in the mountains as everyone else. There is ONE patch of grass and your time there is limited, Everyone is limited to the same time for their cows, but no one is enforcing it. When your cows get more grass, you'll get more milk and earn more for your poor self. If only you're using the fields more then you are allowed to... doing this won't cause a lot of harm, but if everyone follows your example (it's bound to come out after some time) the patch of grass will disappear and no one will get any grass for their cows.
What do you do? Keep sticking to the rules or are you going to take the risk of ruining it?