As of now, I am reading The Fountainhead. I started up a conversation of sorts about it in another thread, and rather then continue to derail that one I decided to make my own (the first in a long time). The conversation is as follows:

the monopoly guy:

Wouldukindly:

the monopoly guy:
Atlas Shrugged, if only to say I read the whole damned thing.

On an offnote, and somewhat ontopic, but mostly not

That part of the Fountainhead has always been argued, the fact is that Howard Roark IS the good guy...Rand said that 'if it was rape, then it was a rape of want' which just complicates things farther. Personally I think she was trying to hint at Dominique's urge for Roark but the reins of society keeping her from doing anything(symbolism at its best). Keating isn't really that bad of a guy, he's just horribly misguided...the other 'villains' of the novel

Spoiler: Click to View

Roark's speech at the end is one of the most powerful things I've ever read. It almost makes you forget his little 'issue' from before. Almost. Still, all of Rand's work should be praised.

As should one Warren Ellis' work. Transmetropolitan, although a graphic novel, is by far superior to many novels out there. Strong plot, amazing characters, insane setting, and a message that we should all learn.

*as a single teardrop runs down his face*
This, this is why I love the Escapist.

Now, see, I neer identified Toohey as a bad guy, this early in the book there is no real hint that he is bad, other then his bashing of modern architecture. Gail Wynand is obvious, Francon outright states it, as does Cameron and Roark. I'm not very far, just at the point where Keating first meets Toohey. I suppose, Mallorey is it? The man who created "industry" knew that Toohey was bad.

I suppose it would be best to start a new thread, then to keep derailing this one.

And so I have created a new one.

This thread is about Ayn Rand in general, not just this one book.

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Oh snap! The forum thread three years in the making!

I hope you enjoy the book. The Fountainhead has two quotes I love, which I won't spoil until you've read the novel.

I know it's chic in certain circles to poo-poo her worth, but Ayn Rand is my favorite novelist of all time. I likely would not have started a company without having read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. I gave a copy of Atlas Shrugged to all the department heads at Themis.

Rand was the first thinker I encountered in my life who said "it's ok to be smart, it's ok to be ambitious, it's ok to want to pursue what's important to you."

Cheeze could SMELL me coming from leagues away on this one.

You have summoned the Galt.
I've actually started reading Atlas Shrugged, but for the past year every time I pick it up I get distracted so I'm only half finished.

She's a great writer, at the beginning of the book it talks about architecture for the most part (but I'm probably just too thick to catch the underlying message) and I still couldn't put the book down.

Archon:

I know it's chic in certain circles to poo-poo her worth, but Ayn Rand is my favorite novelist of all time.

I think Ayn Rand will someday be regarded as one of *the* most important philosophers. She asked the questions no one else wanted to ask, or thought of asking about issues of morality and motivation and law. The fact that a lot of people don't like her answers doesn't mean the questions should not be asked.

Archon:
Cheeze could SMELL me coming from leagues away on this one.

I just wish I'd thought of the motto "The Escapist--the Galt's Gulch of the Gaming Press" in time to score me some sweet loot in that competition you had a while back!

(fixed I think)

Wouldukindly:
Rand said that 'if it was rape, then it was a rape of want' which just complicates things farther.

Or makes her the first third-wave pro-sex feminist.

I've read The Fountainhead, and got through about half of Atlas Shrugged (befoe stopping, needing to do other things), and I quite liked them. However, it's a little too '2D' for my liking, what with the protagonists being 'teh bestest EVAR' and the villains being lower than scum.

Wouldukindly actually said that, you mis-quoted.
I did not get that, I could not tell if it was rape or not and was practically freaking out in class when I read it. Luckily it was english and my teacher understood; my friends, however, did not.

EDIT: @ Stompy: On the contrary, at times it is hard to tell if Peter Keating is bad, I had no idea that Toohey was, and then Roark did what he did to Dominique. Yes, everyone knows that Gail is bad, but it's supposed to be like that.

Fantastic writing. I loved the writing of the book. I loved the characterization and the plot, and the way everything interacted.
Unfortunately, I can not forgive it because it's not a novel, but a political agenda in novel form, and one I heartily disagree with.
And honestly, everything else i ranted about when I read it would be spoiler so I'm not going to go into specifics.

I hold Anthem up as one of my favorite novels of all time. She is an excellent writer.

Indeed Rand's work is very conversation worthy.

I'm just to the point where Keating meets Toohey, after Mallory shoots at him, at this point I would have never guessed him to be bad.

I loved her writing and her philosophy. What a breath of fresh air it was and is to read her!

I loved We the Living and Anthem as well. We the Living has a poignant, tragic flavor to it that, on a certain level, I think is a necessary counterpoint to The Fountainhead. I admire the fact that she was honest enough to show that rugged individualism doesn't always triumph - that sometimes the system does wear you down, or finish you off - but that the struggle is nonetheless admirable. (In contrast, say, to 1984, where the struggle is futile).

Cheeze, I completely agree with your assessment of her importance.

Wouldukindly:
Even Wynand's background is somewhat questionable.

Doh! I ended up as a publisher, like Wynand. I suppose it's indicative of how much I love the novel that I sometimes actually worry I'm more Wynand than Roark. :)

the monopoly guy:
Wouldukindly actually said that, you mis-quoted.
I did not get that, I could not tell if it was rape or not and was practically freaking out in class when I read it. Luckily it was english and my teacher understood; my friends, however, did not.

EDIT: @ Stompy: On the contrary, at times it is hard to tell if Peter Keating is bad, I had no idea that Toohey was, and then Roark did what he did to Dominique. Yes, everyone knows that Gail is bad, but it's supposed to be like that.

Toohey distubed me, even when you are first introduced to him I just felt there was something off about him. He became the character that probably distrubed me the most of all her works for some reason.

I read all of Rand's works while I was in the military. I worked 12-14 hour night shifts and sometimes there was absolutely nothing to do and with no brass around, me and my underlings read.

I enjoyed all her works and found The Fountainhead to be the most uplifting. I just felt completely and utterly inspired when I finished it. Ironically I finished it on my off time, parked by the ocean. I remember looking at it, at everything around it with new eyes. Really a different experience.

A lot of people find her work obtuse though I just think it's the modern generation - they see a book over a hundred pages and call it boring. Atlas Shrugs is a monolith compared to what most of our younger adults read (such as the garbage 'Twiligiht' where vampires sparkle) and think that because it's long it must be boring. In the end her plots are simple with a profund message and I found a lot of things in Atlas Shrugged that I could see in our own society which made me uneasy to say the least.

Kodos to you for reading her work and I hope you enjoy the rest of book and others that she has written.

Archon:
I loved her writing and her philosophy. What a breath of fresh air it was and is to read her!

I loved We the Living and Anthem as well. We the Living has a poignant, tragic flavor to it that, on a certain level, I think is a necessary counterpoint to The Fountainhead. I admire the fact that she was honest enough to show that rugged individualism doesn't always triumph - that sometimes the system does wear you down, or finish you off - but that the struggle is nonetheless admirable. (In contrast, say, to 1984, where the struggle is futile).

Cheeze, I completely agree with your assessment of her importance.

We the Living is absolutely heart breaking in the end, even more so then the rest of the story. That doesn't make it bad, it just shows that you can't always win the battle no matter how strong you fight. She also goes on to say that the battle is always worth fighting.

I was trained in Russian while I was in the military and had th good fortune of having native Russians on my teaching team. One was a former doctor that had lived about 45 years in Russia (he was in his late 60's when he was teaching the class in 2000) and talked about some of what life was like. Talking to them only made Rand's book even more poignant to me.

I've read Anthem, the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. The only one I enjoyed was Atlas Shrugged. The story was fairly unique and there were a few really good plot twists and segments. No I didn't read all of Galt's speech, as I had her philosophy hammered into my brain enough to make that section boring and mostly unnecessary.

There are a few parts of her philosophy that I think are worthwhile, such as promotion of self improvement and the rights of the individual over the collective, however I'm not a fan of her more extreme views, and I find her greatest fans the most annoying of all. Warning: enormous generalization following: they all tend to be high school or college kids who have never owned a business or had a real job, they tend to be socially inept, and they see themselves as versions of John Galt or Roark, epic crusaders who lead their lives alone, never admitting how much they leach of society or depend on others. I have met more capable Randians, but the ratio is about 1:5 against them.

Personally I'm not a fan of philosophy in general (is there a philosophy for that?). Most of them deal either in metaphors or are set in some alternate world from our own, where men aren't just civilized beasts, or are based on unprovable universal "truths".

implodingMan:

Personally I'm not a fan of philosophy in general (is there a philosophy for that?). Most of them deal either in metaphors or are set in some alternate world from are own, where men aren't just civilized beasts, or are based on unprovable universal "truths".

I get kind of the same feeling. Any disagreement with her views in her books seem to be real strawmen setups. It kind of bothers me when a lot of authors do that instead of trying to hold up differing arguments for what they truly are, or honing their views to standup against critical review.

And, as much as the English anti-generalization classes are holding me back, I do have a general distaste for her more rabid fans as well. I actually sat in on a few "objectivist club" meetings on campus, and couldn't stand the throng of overly-sensitive Ron Paul cultists who try to model themselves after the characters. From reading English and Philosophy papers, they also seem way too willing to put their own spin on her "objectivism" so that it doesn't mean anything anymore. If you say I'm generalizing in that last sentence, look at the wikipedia page for Objectivism (Ayn Rand). It's one of the most circle-talking, self-disagreeing things I've read. I could probably find some agreement on it, if her fans could just settle on the same fucking rules without trying to crusade their own beliefs under the flag of her name.

On the other side, she's certainly a good writer, it's just her method of debate that bothers me. The fact that I disagreed with her messages yet breezed through a bunch of her books is a testament to her excellent storytelling abilities.

I read Atlas Shrugged. It's really well written and made me think a lot, but its incredibly heavy going. It took me the longest to read it out of the thousands of books I've ever read. Not exactly entertainment, but I suppose its not meant to be.

the monopoly guy:
EDIT: @ Stompy: On the contrary, at times it is hard to tell if Peter Keating is bad, I had no idea that Toohey was, and then Roark did what he did to Dominique. Yes, everyone knows that Gail is bad, but it's supposed to be like that.

Hmm, perhaps I looked at the characters the wrong way. however, when I read The Fountainhead, the better the person is received by the public, the more 'evil' they end up being.

It's also interesting you bring up 'the scene'; what happens between Dominique and Roark...

Edit: monopoly guy, if you respond, could you please use the quote feature? That way, it's easier for me to know that you wish to continue this discussion.

implodingMan:
I've read Anthem, the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. The only one I enjoyed was Atlas Shrugged.

The only one I really enjoyed was the Fountainhead. Loved the architectural theme a lot and really related to the characters, although I thought that one sleepover was weird... I mean they were grown heterosexual men acting like sixteen year old girls. Maybe there was underlying homosexuality to some of the characters (that would definitely work with the theme of conformity to societal lower standards vs. majestic individuality) but I did not really break the book down.

mark_n_b:

implodingMan:
I've read Anthem, the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. The only one I enjoyed was Atlas Shrugged.

The only one I really enjoyed was the Fountainhead. Loved the architectural theme a lot and really related to the characters, although I thought that one sleepover was weird... I mean they were grown heterosexual men acting like sixteen year old girls. Maybe there was underlying homosexuality to some of the characters (that would definitely work with the theme of conformity to societal lower standards vs. majestic individuality) but I did not really break the book down.

I seriously doubt Ayn Rand intended homosexual implications in their relationship as she said in interviews that she considered any homosexuality immoral. An opinion that perhaps goes against the spirit of her philosophy and adheres more to the tone of the times.

I have very mixed feelings about Ayn Rand's work having read all her novels. As literature they are some of my favourite books - I still can't decide whether I perfer the Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged - but objectivism itself and the way she presents it I'm not so sure about.

The fact that she first presented her philosophy in a novel form gives her immeasurable powers in convincing people of its merit. She had the ability (and she used it extensively) to make all the characters with opposing or different philosophy reprehensible in every way. This is mainly true in Atlas although she does it in The Fountainhead to some extent. James Taggart for example and his leecher companions are all testaments to the worst in men and in that they are completely one dimensional - they're not characters so much as giant talking blocks of what she deemed to be bad people. And then you have John Galt and Roark, both perfect in every way and both believers of her philosophy. I think Ayn Rand is most compelling when she is not so black and white and when she shows the range of beliefs etc. I think her best characters are Wynand, Keating and Rearden - all of which show truly human characteristics in their insecurities and blunders.

I think Ayn Rand's philosophy is compelling and motivating (while still moral) but only when its not taken to an extreme she sometimes hints at. I think we still need a welfare system, there needs to be restrictions on capitalism, charity isn't a sin (not to say its a moral imperative either however). But on the level of the achievement of man, the belief in your own ability and a certain degree of selfishness then I think it holds up well and can be inspirational. Reading her books certainly changed my opinions and gave my left-wing leanings a run for their money and that's what should happen - beliefs need to be challenged and that's what Ayn Rand's books are best at doing.

So yeah.... Read 'em.

Wouldukindly:

Its very true, people take Objectivism and attempt to turn it to their own needs, as they do with alot of philosophies(look at Hobbes' Conservativism or Locke's Liberalism as examples).

Yeah, it's funny how people just prefer to label themselves and others instead of just pick out what they believe. Having taken many Poli Sci courses, it's kind of funny to see how traditional liberalism is basically the exact opposite of what we call liberalism today.

And my problem with Paul supporters is most I talk to have no idea what he stands for, they just know that he very famously (and awesomely) ruined Giuliani's career. I think if you told a lot of "libertarians" that the lib party wants to dismantle the army, public schooling, and any restrictions on poisoning our water, then they might change their minds. I guess I sort of have a hatred against the "I AM THIS WORD YOU ARE THIS WORD" type, so I kind of have a skewed view against Rand, which is a shame, because if I could let that go, maybe I could read deeper into her work.

She's better as a writer than as a philosopher. I can still remember talking with my roommate, hearing him ranting and raving about what a bitch she was, and laughing inside. He was a lawyer-in-training (drank a lot, cared about Philosophy and English, basically kind of lazy and his side of the room was filled with expensive, useless shit), and the way he objected to Rand made me laugh about the ironic picture.

In Atlas Shrugged, the characters are a bit too stock (just good and evil), the debates/messages are horribly biased, but the message that I got out of it was one worthwhile: there's no need to cheapen yourself for the masses. It's okay to be smarter and use that for your own good. Basically, it's a re-affirming message for Darwinism in the face of all other excuses.

Log Dropper M.D.:
Ayn Rand = Dumb Whore

/Thread

Being an authoritarian I find Ayn Rand's philosophy disgusting though her books are not bad reading though. Oh yes and Death to the Individual! Up with the State! :P